BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: Some other Takes on the Manny Trade

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1. Fly, the most judgment-free human being on Earth Posted: August 03, 2008 at 11:53 PM (#2888848)

I'm still in mourning.

2. Chip Posted: August 03, 2008 at 11:55 PM (#2888850)

Manny seemed more like a hired gun, perhaps because he was already a superstar when they signed him.

Maybe because the media treated him that way more than it did the other guys, not least because he refused to talk to them for most of his tenure.

3. PJ Martinez Posted: August 04, 2008 at 12:07 AM (#2888867)

I grew more attached to Manny than I did to Nomar, perhaps because the latter guy seemed as uptight as is probably possible for a successful baseball player. Loved his at-bats, but they grew frustrating near the end (remember Garciapopup?).

No one touches Pedro, obviously.

4. Joe Bivens, Idiot Posted: August 04, 2008 at 12:52 AM (#2888894)

Of all the ex-Sox Darren mentions, Manny has the most left in the tank. The timing is still right for the trade,as it was for the other trades/non-re-signings.

5. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: August 04, 2008 at 06:44 AM (#2889167)

There was some talk about a deal with the Mets for Beltran. The rumor was that the Mets wanted Manny+. Would they have taken Manny+Coco? How would that have affected the team for this year and going forward? How about Manny+Ellsbury?

The fact that Beltran is still a Met probably gives you the answer to those questions. Beltran is signed for three more years at a reasonable rate.

Manny faced the Red Sox three times in the playoffs before he became a Sox. He was a foe before he was a friend.

6. baseclog Posted: August 04, 2008 at 09:23 AM (#2889188)

I am very interested in finding out why the Manny trade has me, and, from what I can tell, others so bummed (for lack of a better term). The morning after, when I woke up, I felt like I had broken up with my girlfriend. There is no reason I, and from what I have seen and heard from others, should feel this sad. I think there are reasons that have nothing to do with Manny, but I cannot put my finger on what it is. Is it some 'end of an era' feeling, the passing of time so quickly, etc???

7. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: August 04, 2008 at 09:26 AM (#2889191)

I became more attached to Manny after Pedro left. Now I just root for the Red Sox because I'm fond of New England, rather than because of any of their players. (I like players on the Red Sox, of course, but no more than any other players.) On the other hand, when Pedro joined the Mets, I started rooting for them . . .

But it's a perfectly good trade from a purely baseball standpoint: a player who is bad defensively and very expensive, plus two AAAA-level players for a player at the same position who is much better defensively, probably just as good a hitter at this point in their respective career, and much cheaper.

8. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: August 04, 2008 at 09:51 AM (#2889195)

The 2nd trade would be after the end of the season, dealing away Hansen and Moss for Bay.

Hansen, Moss and two high draft picks for Bay.

9. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 04, 2008 at 10:48 AM (#2889204)

If we had pedro for 2005, we might have gone deeper into the playoffs and repeated. Instead, we chose to get Matt Clement, who did jack S!@# for 3 years.

10. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: August 04, 2008 at 11:06 AM (#2889207)

Hansen, Moss and two high draft picks for Bay.

The Red Sox will get those picks back if Bay leaves. The Red Sox did really well in this trade. Manny is a fantastic hitter, a guy that can carry a team offensively when he is locked in but Bay is the more complete player. He is a more than adequate replacement for Manny.

11. Toby Posted: August 04, 2008 at 01:08 PM (#2889283)

I don't get the sadness over Manny leaving. Manny wanted to leave. He's happy to be gone. And it's not like he was driven out of town; he has been wanting to leave for three or four years now.

I am very fond of Manny. But it was time for him to go.

This is a feelgood trade all around -- for Manny, for the Sox, for the Dodgers, for the Pirates, for Moss and Hansen and Bay and LaRoche and Morris ... it will be fun to see Manny and Nomar and Lowe in the other dugout when we all get to the Series.

12. The Marksist Posted: August 04, 2008 at 01:12 PM (#2889285)

I am very fond of Manny. But it was time for him to go.

I agree, but It's still sad to think of Manny NOT doing his thing for the Sox. Plus, how bummed is Papi?

13. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 04, 2008 at 01:26 PM (#2889292)

I don't get the sadness over Manny leaving. Manny wanted to leave. He's happy to be gone. And it's not like he was driven out of town; he has been wanting to leave for three or four years now.

I wish it weren't that way. And I have an emotional attachment to Manny, so I miss him. I don't think it's particularly hard to get.

14. tjm1 Posted: August 04, 2008 at 02:00 PM (#2889308)

Plus, how bummed is Papi?

It depends whom you want to believe. Francona definitely called in all the veterans to ask their take on the situation, and the rumors are they they all were happy with trading Manny.

The contract situation with Bay is even better than his being under control next year. He's still not a free agent in 2010 - he'd just be arbitration eligible.

Beltran is a better player than Bay, but the extra value is almost all in his defense. A Manny + ? for Beltran deal wouldn't really help them much. It would just mean Crisp or Ellsbury playing a lot of left field (or Beltran playing left). They'd be underutilizing a Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder.

15. SoSH U at work Posted: August 04, 2008 at 02:07 PM (#2889309)

It depends whom you want to believe. Francona definitely called in all the veterans to ask their take on the situation, and the rumors are they they all were happy with trading Manny.

I think Papi could realize it was probably best he be traded and still be really bummed that he is gone. Like many of us.

I'm not bummed he's gone, since I thought it was for the best, but I do wish him well in LA.

16. rfloh Posted: August 04, 2008 at 02:09 PM (#2889310)

He's still not a free agent in 2010 - he'd just be arbitration eligible.

Cots has him at 4 years of service time BEFORE this season started.

The only place I've seen claim that he's only arby eligible in 2010, is Christina Kahrl's TA column. Other BPro writers, have said that that is a mistake.

Or if you disbelieve Cots, go back over his career and count how long he's been in MLB.

17. Famous Original Joe C Posted: August 04, 2008 at 02:36 PM (#2889332)

If we had pedro for 2005, we might have gone deeper into the playoffs and repeated. Instead, we chose to get Matt Clement, who did jack S!@# for 3 years.

And they may not trade for Beckett and Lowell and there's no title in 2007. We can play this game all day.

18. Toby Posted: August 04, 2008 at 02:43 PM (#2889337)

I have an emotional attachment to Manny, so I miss him

OK, I suppose I get this. I don't have an emotional attachment to him. I suppose I did at one point, but once he started agitating to leave years ago, I figured it was just a matter of time. Nothing lasts forever. When a good thing goes, let it go and be glad you had it for a time. (Help me out, Mikael: What is that -- Taoism?)

19. Mattbert Posted: August 04, 2008 at 03:01 PM (#2889348)

Nothing lasts forever. When a good thing goes, let it go and be glad you had it for a time. (Help me out, Mikael: What is that -- Taoism?)

If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let 'em go. Because, man, they're gone.
--Jack Handey

20. Petuniaviles Posted: August 04, 2008 at 04:07 PM (#2889397)

Hansen, Moss and two high draft picks for Bay

#8... maybe I've missed the discussion about this, but I don't think I've seen it brought up. If the Sox had let Manny walk after this season, wouldn't they NOT get the compensatory picks because they'd be declining a team option? Or am I missing something?

21. tjm1 Posted: August 04, 2008 at 06:48 PM (#2889550)

The only place I've seen claim that he's only arby eligible in 2010, is Christina Kahrl's TA column. Other BPro writers, have said that that is a mistake.

That probably is where I saw it, and I'm sure you're right that it's her/my mistake. I was curious at the time about why he would have signed a deal taking him to within one year of free agency, rather than straight through to free agency.

If the Sox had let Manny walk after this season, wouldn't they NOT get the compensatory picks because they'd be declining a team option? Or am I missing something?

They could still have offered arbitration and then get the draft picks if Manny declined arbitration and ended up signing elsewhere.

Essentially, there's an informal agreement between Manny and the Dodgers that they'll decline his options and offered arbitration, and he'll refuse arbitration, but may agree to re-sign there if there are mutually agreeable terms.

22. Darnell McDonald had a farm Posted: August 04, 2008 at 07:23 PM (#2889583)

"but may agree to re-sign there if there are mutually agreeable terms"

Or if the team that already has an agreement with Boras decides to back out

23. baseclog Posted: August 04, 2008 at 10:43 PM (#2889836)

I wish it weren't that way. And I have an emotional attachment to Manny, so I miss him. I don't think it's particularly hard to get.

That is my concern/interest. I feel the same way, but I don't know why. It is either very simple: I have an emotional attachment and that is all it is. OR, deeper: My sadness has nothing to do with Manny, but Manny leaving is triggering emotions or an issue that just appears to be caused by Manny.

24. Darren

Posted: August 04, 2008 at 11:07 PM (#2889870)

I was really depressed when I heard he hadn't been traded. Year after year of this being imminent made me really want closure. I didn't have a real emotional attachment to Manny, especially since he badly wanted out. I've sort of always been that way--if you don't want to be here, I'm not going to beg sort of thing.

25. Kyle S at work Posted: August 04, 2008 at 11:29 PM (#2889901)

Don't they also get two high draft picks when Bay leaves in a year's time?

26. tjm1 Posted: August 05, 2008 at 06:52 AM (#2890515)

Don't they also get two high draft picks when Bay leaves in a year's time?

Probably. He should be a Type A free agent if he plays this well again next year.

27. House That Ruth Built 2008 Posted: August 06, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2892434)

Manny Ramirez is undoubtedly one of the best hitters in the game and the Dodgers are an up and coming franchise. I think Joe Torre and Manny Ramirez may actually mix decently - despite the extreme contrasts in personalities. Give it some time before we start saying for sure the Dodgers are definately going to get rid of him. I don't think that would be wise. The Dodgers need hitting and Ramirez can obviously provide that. His fielding in past years has left much to be desired but recently, over the past 1.5 years, he has really gotten on his horse. I look for Ramirez to stay in Dodgers Blue.

28. Darren

Posted: August 08, 2008 at 12:04 AM (#2894703)

Manny is hitting pretty well these days.

29. Dan Posted: August 08, 2008 at 12:08 AM (#2894707)

The home runs have been off of Billy Buckner, Yusmeiro Petit, Joel Pineiro, and Kyle Lohse though, so they should only count as half a home run each.

30. Biff isn't really an apt handle anymore Posted: August 08, 2008 at 12:39 AM (#2894721)

Manny is hitting pretty well these days.

Good thing Jason Bay is too.

31. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: August 08, 2008 at 01:52 AM (#2894767)

Beltran has a no-trade, doesn't he? Thought that was the deal breaker with the Astros.

32. Perros Posted: August 08, 2008 at 01:55 AM (#2894770)

Manny wanted to leave. He's happy to be gone. And it's not like he was driven out of town; he has been wanting to leave for three or four years now.

The girlfriend analogy is a good one for some of us. Sure, it wasn't going to work out, but I'm just now recovering over a year, and a lot of whiskey, later.

Depends on how much emotional investment one had in the first place.

I'd probably have been dead before 2004 if I had the misfortune of being a died-in-the-wool Sox fan.

33. Darren

Posted: August 08, 2008 at 02:59 AM (#2894813)

Boston.com: Source: MLB investigating Manny's departure

The Globe has learned (from a source with direct knowledge of the inquiry) that Bud Selig directed Major League Baseball executive vice president Rob Manfred to contact all parties for an explanation of how things unfolded around last week's trading deadline.

h/t to SOSH.

34. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: August 08, 2008 at 03:05 AM (#2894816)

Manny posted a 1.089 OPS after the ASB for the Red Sox. The only possibility is that he faked an injury as he missed a few games because it is impossible to say that he played badly on purpose. Waste of time.

35. Srul Itza Posted: August 08, 2008 at 03:22 AM (#2894821)

Cross-posted from elsewhere:

This is Manny's line in the 6 games since he joined the Dodgers:

.565/.615/1.130/1.745, 4 HRs, 7 Runs, 9 RBI

Not that Bay has been anything other than a stellar performer:

.423/.500/.692/1.192, 1 HR, 10 Runs, 6 RBI

The Dodgers must have some great medical people on staff -- looks like Manny's knees are not bothering him any more.

For the Red Sox, this trade was a necessity for a variety of reasons, and that they have done so well replacing Manny with so little drop off for this season, is a great accomplishment.

For the Dodgers, they desperately needed offense, and this is a major help for them.

36. Perros Posted: August 08, 2008 at 03:28 AM (#2894823)

The Sox did a good job in getting Bay. You can break down that trade any way you want to, but to move him and get close to replacement value was no small feat.

Still, Manny boosts the Dodgers in a way that Bay couldn't have if the Dodgers had acquired him.

37. Darren

Posted: August 08, 2008 at 12:00 PM (#2894919)

What about defense, LN? Bay probably had more value to the Dodgers than to the Red Sox because they have a larger LF.

38. OCD SS Posted: August 08, 2008 at 01:18 PM (#2894942)

The Dodgers couldn't have gotten Bay, though. One of the reasons they were willing to take Manny was because his salary was paid and they gave up a minimal amount of talent. There was no way Colletti was going to A) give up the prospects to get Bay on his own (i.e. Kemp +) and then Pay him (although it was only $2M).

Depends on how much emotional investment one had in the first place.

I find that I enjoy watching Manny much more now that he's not on the Sox and I just get to watch him hit. I'm able to enjoy watching him play defense since it has no effect on my team and I can ignore the off-field stuff entirely. I guess Extra Innings has turned Manny into internet porn for me...

39. The Piehole of David Wells, Depends Salesman

Posted: August 23, 2008 at 12:33 AM (#2913494)

moss and hansen aren't looking good in pittsburgh. they're really sh!tting the bed.

40. Perros Posted: August 23, 2008 at 01:14 AM (#2913562)

I guess you younger guys who compare losing Manny to losing a girlfriend are still naive enough to regret stuff like that.

I gave what I gave
I'm not sorry I met you
I'm not sorry it's over
I'm not sorry there's nothing to save.

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