BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: Surveying the Wreckage I: Introductory Thoughts, Injuries

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1. Dan Posted: August 18, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4211437)

Globe claims Crawford wants to get TJ next week.

2. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 18, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4211470)

Globe claims Crawford wants to get TJ next week.

Brilliant. So we're already looking at a negative total contribution from Crawford for the first three years of the contract.

3. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 18, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4211473)

Two. If he has TJ now, he should be at full speed for Opening Day.

Well, if he has TJ now and doesn't let the Red Sox medical/training staff anywhere near his rehab.

4. TVerik Posted: August 18, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4211478)

What position players have had TJ, and what kind of recovery time is there?

5. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 18, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4211489)

The second issue here is the epidemic of players not following medical directives. Dustin Pedroia has cost himself about a month in each of the last two seasons because he has forced his way through injuries against medical advice. There seems to be a culture of disrespect for trainers and doctors wherein players don’t listen to the medical advice, and a culture of be-a-man play-through-it where players don’t get the treatment they need.

More please? Mostly because of the resonance with the Strasburg kerfluffle, but also because I suspect that in a global sense you're right -- attitude and, perhaps, accounting haven't kept pace with medical progress.

6. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 18, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4211498)

7. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: August 18, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4211502)

What position players have had TJ, and what kind of recovery time is there?

I can't recall offhand which position players have had it, but the recovery time for them is typically assumed to be 6 months rather than the year it takes pitchers.

8. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 18, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4211514)

I can't recall offhand which position players have had it, but the recovery time for them is typically assumed to be 6 months rather than the year it takes pitchers.

On the Fox broadcast, Rosenthal just said 6-9 months. I have no idea why they wouldn't have Crawford do the surgery ASAP.

EDIT: I mean, I know why, because that's announcing you're giving up on the season, but I suspect everyone knows that.

9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 18, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4211521)

On the Fox broadcast, Rosenthal just said 6-9 months. I have no idea why they wouldn't have Crawford do the surgery ASAP.

They made a bad call to have Crawford rehab his elbow, when he obviously doesn't feel right playing through it and is risking major injury, but now they don't want to shut him down and have the whole organization admit a mistake and defeat at the same time. This organization don't work good.

10. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 18, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4211523)

What position players have had TJ, and what kind of recovery time is there?

Wikipedia says that Kyle Blanks had it in 2010. He was out from May 18, 2010 to July 22, 2011. Then he tore a labrum this year. He may hold the record for most pitching injuries by a position player.

Xavier Nady has had it twice. His second surgery was on July 8, 2009. He was on the Cubs opening day roster in 2010.

11. Darren

Posted: August 18, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4211555)

Mayor, what do you want more of? Were you asking about the 'play through it mentality' bit? If so, Pedroia's a good example. He's tried to play through injuries in both of the past two years. In both cases, he played terribly while hurt and ended up missing time anyway. Youkilis also tried to play hurt last year to disastrous results. Cameron did a couple years ago and was replacement level. On the pitching side, it goes back at least to Schilling, who seemed to decide whether he would pitch all on his own. Buchholz pitched through injury last year and was terrible and ended up hurt worse.

Those are a few off the top of my head, but there's a lot more I'm sure.

12. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 18, 2012 at 05:49 PM (#4211556)

OK, I didn't know that TJ recovery time was usually shorter for position players than pitchers. My mistake.

13. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 18, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4211559)

Darren, thanks. Any sense -- you or anyone else -- if it's the org too (Valentine's handling of Crawford suggests yes) and also perhaps potential conflict of responsibilities for the in-house medical/training staff?

14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 18, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4211582)

Oh, it's overdetermined. The Crawford issue is much less Valentine (that 4 day / 5 day thing was very oddly reported) and more that the Red Sox had him rehab instead of getting surgery, and he clearly doesn't feel comfortable playing through the injury. Buchholz last season was misdiagnosed and told he should be fine, and tried to pitch through it after that.

The players don't respect medical directives, the organization encourages gritty-gamerhood well past the point of rationality, and on top of that the doctors and trainers make bad calls.

15. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 19, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4211721)

Thanks Mikeal.

16. Textbook Editor Posted: August 19, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4211803)

At this point why would any player trust the assessment of Red Sox team doctors? If I was Crawford I'd want the surgery too. Has rest/rehab ever worked for any player the Red Sox tried it on?

You'd think just by osmosis Henry would have realized that soccer medical teams are light years ahead of the Red Sox, and tried like hell to adjust accordingly.

17. Swedish Chef Posted: August 19, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4211807)

You'd think just by osmosis Henry would have realized that soccer medical teams are light years ahead of the Red Sox, and tried like hell to adjust accordingly.

And in return the Red Sox could send some PR people to Liverpool.

18. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 19, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4211853)

You'd think just by osmosis Henry would have realized that soccer medical teams are light years ahead of the Red Sox, and tried like hell to adjust accordingly.

I think it was last winter he actually talked about that being one of the areas he hoped the Sox would benefit from the Liverpool purchase. So far it's not working.

19. tfbg9 Posted: August 19, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4211910)

11: Did Bucholz "try to pitch thru injury" last year, or was it a case of The Club not laying-out for an MRI that would've revealed the cracked vertebrae that they 2 or three times mis-diagnosed as a muscle pull and re-pull, then told him to shut it down for a week 2 or 3 times, then had him go out for bullpens, and re-crack 2 or 3 times?

20. Infinite Joost (Voxter)

Posted: August 19, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4211911)

crap·u·lent/?krapy?l?nt/
Adjective:
Of or relating to the drinking of alcohol or drunkenness.
Synonyms:
crapulous

21. Dan Posted: August 19, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4211948)

This isn't a remotely fresh article, but I just saw it referenced when I was bored and puttering around on SOSH, and reading it now it's pretty astounding to think about. So the Red Sox KNEW Crawford had a significant history of issues with his wrist and signed him to a contract that made him one of the highest paid outfielders in history? Two years after signing Lackey for $80M despite knowing his elbow was bad enough to specifically put a clause about elbow surgery into his contract?

This seems like a significant puzzle piece to answering the questions asked in the lead-in to this thread. The Red Sox risk evaluation for FA signings is apparently completely incapable of realizing that injured players aren't worth record-setting FA deals.

22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 19, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4211959)

I don't think that's a correct characterization of Cherington's remarks. He said:

A lot of players have pathology in different joints. Pitchers, position players … you do a lot of things in baseball the body is not designed to do. For a pitcher that usually involves a shoulder or elbow. A lot of guys are pitching very well with shoulders or elbows that aren’t perfect. It’s the same thing for position players. The hitting causes a lot of strain on the wrist and the hands. There are a lot of major league hitters whose wrists and hands don’t look perfect. It’s just a matter of managing it, and at some point sometimes you have to treat it a little more aggressively, and that was the case this winter with Carl.

There are no perfect physicals, not for professional athletes. Cherington is indeed saying they knew Crawford had wrist issues, but they didn't think these issues were any more serious than the sorts of things that come up on every perfectly healthy 28-year-old ballplayer's physical. This could be a case of misdiagnosis, but it's not clear it's a case of bad risk management, based on Cherington's remarks.

The John Lackey case seems like a good contrast, where the Sox knew he had elbow problems well above and beyond what would be typical, and thought that the stupid 6th-year-free clause was a good risk-management work-around. That 6th-year-free clause reads, in retrospect, a bit like an analogy for the financial crisis - a front office and ownership so certain of their ground-breaking intelligence, who came up with a new idea for managing risk that they thought was the smartest idea ever, and which turned out to be wildly insufficient to manage the risk of the asset they'd purchased for way too much money.

23. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 19, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4211960)

crap·u·lent/?krapy?l?nt/
Adjective:
Of or relating to the drinking of alcohol or drunkenness.

Fascinating. I honestly thought it was a made-up word, an abstract noun based on the slang "crap." So, does "crap" derive from this real word "crapulence"?

24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 19, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4211966)

You'd think just by osmosis Henry would have realized that soccer medical teams are light years ahead of the Red Sox, and tried like hell to adjust accordingly.

Is this really true? Or is it just that soccer medical issues are light years simpler than baseball issues?

The whole shoulder/elbow/wrist constellation of baseball injuries seem largely irrelevant in soccer; if you can run, you can play.

How often do baseball players miss significant time due to injuries that prevent running?

25. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 19, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4212000)

Anonymous sources are now saying Kelly Shoppach composed the text message sent to ownership from Gonzalez's phone. Seems a little . . . um, convenient since Shoppach was just traded and also denies any role.

26. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 19, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4212001)

Let's see, knees, ankles, hamstrings, hips...

As for crap v. crapulent:

crapulent:

Origin:
1650–60; < Late Latin crapulentus drunk, derivative of Latin crapula drunkenness < Greek kraipál? drunkenness, a hangover;

crap:

Origin:
1375–1425; late Middle English crap chaff < Middle Dutch (not recorded until 16th century) krappe anything cut off or separated

27. The District Attorney Posted: August 19, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4212002)

And where does Thomas Crapper fit into all this?

(BTW, Thomas Crapper also invented the ballcock.)

28. Darren

Posted: August 19, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4212060)

Anonymous sources are now saying Kelly Shoppach composed the text message sent to ownership from Gonzalez's phone. Seems a little . . . um, convenient since Shoppach was just traded and also denies any role.

Convenient? I think it suggests a reason for the trade.

29. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 19, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4212065)

We have a ton of threads about the text message shitshow already. This one's about injuries.

And also etymology.

But if YC wants to talk about that story, he can do so in a lot of places where there wasn't already an entirely different discussion ongoing.

30. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 19, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4212080)

Man I know people are probably tired of hearing me say it, but if Lester and Beckett simply pitch like their normal selves (not even anything crazy), then we're probably right in the middle of the dogfight for the WCs, and everything else still applies but would be seen as more of a sideshow than the main storyline.

Edit: I suppose to keep it somewhat on topic I can ask: does it seem possible that Lester, too, is playing through something he shouldn't be?

31. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 19, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4212082)

Well, this was the most relevant thread on the Hot Topics list, which seems to be well within the BBTF tradition. This place isn't exactly known for staying on topic.

32. Dan Posted: August 19, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4212109)

Edit: I suppose to keep it somewhat on topic I can ask: does it seem possible that Lester, too, is playing through something he shouldn't be?

Check out Lester's home/road splits.

33. nick swisher hygiene Posted: August 19, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4212112)

why no MRI clauses in contracts? "club right to four per season, no questions asked; price of first two comes out of player salary, club pays any additional"--something along those lines?

edit: four is a lot, but something on those lines

34. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 19, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4212116)

Do players typically refuse MRIs? Isn't the story that the Sox simply didn't do them in a couple of high profile cases (Ellsbury in 2010, Buchholz last year I think?).

I suppose to keep it somewhat on topic I can ask: does it seem possible that Lester, too, is playing through something he shouldn't be?

My theory is that anywhere from 50-80% of pitchers pitching badly can be assumed to be a function of injury. Having said that I think Lester is an issue of execution and mechanics. I think his problems have been largely due to something he was doing wrong that left his cutter a lot flatter and straighter than it has been in the past. That's not the only issue but I think it's a biggie.

Recent results have me believing that even more than I already did.

35. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 19, 2012 at 08:31 PM (#4212160)

Check out Lester's home/road splits.

Interesting, he's getting destroyed at home...which could mean, what, do you think?

36. OCD SS Posted: August 19, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4212196)

The monster lets the opposing manager stack his line up with RH hitters who are enjoying nice dividends with their platoon advantage on Lester's diminished stuff?

37. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 19, 2012 at 09:27 PM (#4212197)

Fenway has always been a tough place for LHP. If a good Red Sox lefty loses a little bit of his stuff, we would expect it to hurt him at home more than on the road.

38. Dale Sams Posted: August 19, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4212204)

This team is going nowhere *at least* until those kids you guys are so high on can come up. That means, yes...write off 2013 unless some ace pitchers fall in our lap.

Yes, I said it.

39. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 20, 2012 at 08:52 AM (#4212348)

I was struck by how many of the team’s significant injuries have been to players who are either injury-prone, or probably actually injured when the Sox picked them up. You have Lackey, Dice-K, and Mike Cameron in the latter group,

I agree on Lackey's prior injury issue, but not sure how any team would look at DiceK and think he was injured when he was signed, especially not after he threw over 200 innings in his 1st year with the Sox. And Cameron averaged 140 games a season, I'd think the Sox would have been quite happy with that knowing he was older.

40. villageidiom Posted: August 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4212430)

You'd think just by osmosis Henry would have realized that soccer medical teams are light years ahead of the Red Sox, and tried like hell to adjust accordingly.

Are soccer teams light years ahead of the Red Sox when it comes to wrist, elbow, and shoulder injuries? I'd think most of the soccer approach to such injuries would be to rub some dirt on it and play on.

41. Nasty Nate Posted: August 20, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4212455)

That means, yes...write off 2013 unless some ace pitchers fall in our lap.

Yes, I said it.

"Those ace pitchers are Buccholz and odd-year Beckett, plus Lester will rebound."
--- Nasty Nate, March 2013 brimming with false spring optimism.

42. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 20, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4212473)

"Those ace pitchers are Buccholz and odd-year Beckett, plus Lester will rebound."
--- Nasty Nate, March 2013 brimming with false spring optimism.

I think 2 of those 3 are realistic to the point of being likely. I also think that Beckett is not going to be here next year.

There is no reason this team shouldn't expect to be a 90 win team next year. The key to it is what they get from Beckett's slot in the rotation.

43. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 20, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4213252)

Bob McClure out. Off the cuff this feels like good news for Bobby Valentine, I can see this as a "we wanted to give him a year with his coaching staff" kind of move.

44. Dale Sams Posted: August 20, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4213288)

There is no reason this team shouldn't expect to be a 90 win team next year

Except the utter lack of ability to demonstrate this. How is a team with much the same roster going to go from 72-90 to 90-72? There's not even a hat to throw in "don't be Lackey and Wake"* and "We can't help but get better production from the corners". And injuries, bad trades, not so hot management and intangibles arn't even half the problem. A great deal of it is what I said at the beginning of the season: A great many teams have got better. At this rate, the Mariners are going to end up with a better record than the 2012 Red Sox.

*yes, if a great many things go right, then 90+ isn't at all unattainable. But I haven't seen a lot of things go right in a long time.

45. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 20, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4213293)

Does Niemann have anything to recommend him other than having worked with Valentine 10 years ago?

46. Dan Posted: August 20, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4213359)

Crawford's going under the knife Thursday. Hopefully he can make the shorter end of the 6-9 month rehab window for a position player getting TJS, because if it's 9 months that puts him out for ST + 2 months of the season.

47. Phil Coorey. Posted: August 21, 2012 at 01:50 AM (#4213406)

The Sox have worked another medical miracle , this time with Crawford.

What a bunch of geniuses

48. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 21, 2012 at 02:06 AM (#4213414)

For Crawford's sake, I hope they operate on the correct arm.

49. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 21, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4213711)

How is a team with much the same roster going to go from 72-90 to 90-72?

Well, the current iteration goes from a prorated 78-84 to 85-77 by doing nothing more than looking at runs scored and allowed.

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