BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: Valentine’s Day Is Over: It Seems Clear Bobby V Will Not Be Back

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101. bobm Posted: September 03, 2012 at 07:42 PM (#4225759)

I think Ben inherited a pretty nice situation. ... He got Valentine foisted upon him in about the worst possible manner, I think had the Sox handled his hiring better that would have helped this mess but there aren't a lot of teams that looked that much better on Halloween, 2011 than the Sox did.

1. The GM didn't hire the manager.
2. The manager didn't hire key coaches (bench and pitching IIRC).
3. The players could bypass the manager and GM to communicate directly with ownership.

Is the continued organizational dysfunction all that surprising?

102. JJ1986 Posted: September 03, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4225766)

Why did Lucchino want Valentine in the first place? He usually seems to be a savvy guy even if he's an #######. He wouldn't really think that hiring a famous, but crappy manager would be the solution. Stealing headlines for a few days is not worth tanking the team. Was he just trying to exert power over the new GM? If he actually thought Valentine, with limited power, was the right hire, then that's horrible judgment.

103. Dale Sams Posted: September 03, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4225770)

Ex-2011 Sox, helping teams walk off since...ah...whenever Reddick got his first I guess.

104. Darren

Posted: September 03, 2012 at 08:05 PM (#4225772)

As others have argued in this thread, the manager is not likely to make a huge difference. He probably thought he was a) the ying to Francona's easy-going yan, and b) as you say, a good story.

105. Dan Posted: September 03, 2012 at 08:07 PM (#4225774)

I think that if that had gotten Bobby Valentine circa 2002, he would have been a good hire. The game simply passed him by in the last 10 years and he wasn't able to connect with current players. I just don't think Lucchino accounted for the fact that the guy had been out of MLB for so long.

106. Mayor Blomberg Posted: September 03, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4225813)

He usually seems to be a savvy guy even if he's an #######.

Luccino or Valentine?

107. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 03, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4225849)

Take this FWIW, I was talking with a White Sox front office guy last week and he said Scioscia was the clear favorite to replace Valentine barring an unforeseen playoff run by the Angels.

Did Lackey do the beer & chicken bit on Scioscia's watch, too?

108. Dale Sams Posted: September 03, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4225861)

Mlb losing streak is 23, Al: 21. I think they can pull it off.

109. Infinite Joost (Voxter)

Posted: September 03, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4225871)

Scioscia was the clear favorite to replace Valentine barring an unforeseen playoff run by the Angels.

Mike Scioscia was my favorite player as a kid, but god I hate this idea.

110. Lassus Posted: September 03, 2012 at 11:20 PM (#4225875)

He wouldn't really think that hiring a famous, but crappy manager would be the solution.

Wilbon, is that you?

111. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 04, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4226298)

Give me Valentine any day over Scioscia.

112. karlmagnus Posted: September 04, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4226318)

Educate me. Why is Scioscia crappy? His track record is quite good.

113. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: September 04, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4226332)

Speier's take. As usual, a very thorough job and he makes a good case for letting Bobby go right away.

To bring it back, Speier's emergence as one of the best sportswriters in Boston has been one of the nicest Red Sox-related developments this year.

114. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: September 04, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4226333)

Educate me. Why is Scioscia crappy? His track record is quite good.

I think the "famous, but crappy manager" being referred to upthread is Valentine, not Scioscia. As far as I can tell, the anti-Scioscia crowd doesn't like him personally but isn't really claiming that he's a bad manager per se. (I'd put myself in this camp.)

115. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: September 04, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4226401)

I think the "famous, but crappy manager" being referred to upthread is Valentine, not Scioscia. As far as I can tell, the anti-Scioscia crowd doesn't like him personally but isn't really claiming that he's a bad manager per se. (I'd put myself in this camp.)

I would guess a big part of the anti-Scioscia case would be his weakness for light-hitting catchers/chasing of Napoli out of town, and the tendency of his offenses to not take a lot of walks and to run into outs on the bases. I can't really speak to how accurate those criticisms are (aside from the crappy catcher thing), but it's hard to argue with his success and the general respect with which he's viewed throughout the league.

116. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: September 04, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4226472)

I would guess a big part of the anti-Scioscia case would be his weakness for light-hitting catchers/chasing of Napoli out of town, and the tendency of his offenses to not take a lot of walks and to run into outs on the bases.

I agree that these are the main specific criticisms that get directed at Scioscia's managing. However, I doubt there are any managers who don't get criticized for at least some part of their game. I think most of Scioscia's detractors would concede that he he has had enough success and does enough other things well to avoid being labelled a "crappy manager" overall.

117. karlmagnus Posted: September 04, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4226524)

Thank you all for the education. I'd forgotten the Napoli case. Scioscia seems a reasonable replacement possibility therefore, although unless somebody convinces me otherwise I prefer Ryne Sandberg, who seems to be just sitting there waiting for an ML manager job and might come cheaper (again, if I'm out to lunch, happy to be told why.)

Seems to me a manager who was HOF as a player would at least be able to make himself listened to and not "lose the clubhouse."

118. PJ Martinez Posted: September 06, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4228072)

Someone asked Valentine if he had "checked out" on the season.

What an embarrassing thing to say. If I were there right now, I'd punch you right in the mouth. Ha, ha. How's that sound?

119. phillipsendler Posted: October 03, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4253405)

'Nuf Sed we need you now!

120. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 03, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4253412)

No announcement yet? Why not give the players something to celebrate on the plane back to Boston?

121. Greg Franklin Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:11 AM (#4253488)

I think they'll be riding a train back from NY, won't they?

Cue the Ring Lardner "I'm Forever Blowing Ballgames" scene in Eight Men Out....

122. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 04, 2012 at 06:42 AM (#4253516)

My guess is everything will go down on Friday.

123. jmurph Posted: October 04, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4253557)

My guess is everything will go down on Friday.

Eh, the Wild Card games are on Friday. I hope they announce everything today.

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