Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Sox Therapy > Discussion
Sox Therapy
— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox

Sunday, October 28, 2018

The Greatest Red Sox Team…EVER!!!!

With all due respect to the speech by Curtis Montague Schilling (R-RI) after the 2004 World Series title this truly is the greatest Red Sox team ever.  They laid waste to the American League during the regular season winning a team record 108 games, then blitzed the 100 win second place Yankees in four games, ran through the defending World Series champion 103 win Astros in five games then put the smack down on the two time National League champion Dodgers in five to close it out.

And the lesson here is don’t troll the Red Sox.  When Brian Cashman said only the Yankees could do damage the Sox swept the Yanks at Fenway.  When Aaron Judge celebrated winning one game in the playoffs with “New York, New York” they demolished the Yankees in a record setting fashion in game three and finished them off.  Then when the Dodgers tweeted out “Damage Done” after squeaking out their lone victory they found themselves watching the Sox celebrate on Dodger Stadium turf.

I’m off to celebrate with my parents but for now I’ll leave this as a place to share thoughts and memories.  For me the defining characteristic of this team is the way everyone bought into what Alex Cora was doing.  Starters as relievers (and closers!).  Nathan Eovaldi giving everything and then some.  Blake Swihart never caused a problem despite not really playing much then doing a solid job.  Brock Holt hitting for the cycle then saying all the right things when sitting the next night.

WORLD CHAMPION RED SOX, pardon me Joe Castiglione, but NO I CANNOT BELIEVE I’VE SEEN FOUR WORLD SERIES TITLES!!!!

Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 28, 2018 at 11:31 PM | 76 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Nasty Nate Posted: October 28, 2018 at 11:57 PM (#5778595)
Whadda season!
   2. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5778597)
One hundred and nineteen
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5778603)
Best team of the 21st century.

   4. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:26 AM (#5778605)
Best team of the millennium, by a long shot. Enjoy the 20th century, Yankees. We are the future.
   5. dave h Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:29 AM (#5778606)
I forgot to call my parents this weekend, so right after the last out I did. My dad never answers the phone if my mom is home, but he picked up. We talked about how different this team felt than any other. My dad saw 60+ years of failure and near-misses, and even after 2004 he always feared the worst. But with this team, they could be down by several runs, and we'd all still feel pretty good about them. It always pissed me off when people would give up on them early, and it's cool to see things so different.
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5778607)
What a postseason for joe ####### kelly, of all people
   7. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:24 AM (#5778608)
Yeah with all the talk about Pearce and Price for MVP it could easily have gone to Kelly.
   8. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:27 AM (#5778609)
Rich Hill texted congratulations to Joe Castiglione after the game.
   9. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: October 29, 2018 at 05:32 AM (#5778614)
They started 17-2 and never let up. They were relentless. Everyone was on the same page(well most of the time-at times I wanted Joe Kelly shot into the sun). The Pierce and Eovaldi pick ups were huge. The top 4/5 in the lineup were insanely productive and Price picked up when Sale slowed down.

A very well earned championship for a group that was just d*mn enjoyable to watch all season.

Did they ever lose 4 in a row?

I waited nearly 40 years for that first title and it never gets old no matter how successful the team is. Though I think this team was probably a once in a lifetime deal with those 108 regular season wins. Holy smokes.
   10. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: October 29, 2018 at 07:51 AM (#5778622)
Never lost four in a row. Their worst 10 game stretch at any part of the season was going 4-6 in mid August. What a team.
   11. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: October 29, 2018 at 08:01 AM (#5778623)
I love this team. Only 107 days until Pitchers and Catchers report!
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 29, 2018 at 08:01 AM (#5778624)
Top 10 single season teams of all time for accomplishments, in chronological order, factoring in (1) regular season dominance, (2) league strength and the quality of the opponents, (3) postseason dominance, (4) quality of the postseason opposition, and (5) overall pitching/hitting balance, lineup balance and the presence of a superstar or two. Sort em all out for yourself:

1927 Yankees
1939 Yankees
1970 Orioles
1976 Reds
1984 Tigers
1986 Mets
1998 Yankees
2016 Cubs
2017 Astros
2018 Red Sox

Oh, and no 1906 Cubs or 2001 Mariners. Let them compete for the Pythagorean award. No rings, no consideration.

   13. villageidiom Posted: October 29, 2018 at 09:14 AM (#5778644)
This was a methodical championship. They won 2 out of 3 across a whole season, and then went 11-3 against the NL champs and a couple of 100-win teams. They missed a whole season of Dustin Pedroia, close to half a season of Chris Sale, and a couple months of whoever would have started ahead of Hanley Ramirez, and just kept moving forward.

They were like a zombie apocalypse; you think you've killed them off but then there's another bunch of them coming at you from another direction, and they just kept advancing until you run out of bullets. Then they slowly and mercilessly dismantle you, eat your brains, and dance to a song about your town while spraying champagne all over their decaying flesh.
   14. , Posted: October 29, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5778663)
Congrats, Sox fans. It was a bland series, save game 3, but the clearly better team won, which is nice as a neutral observer.

</i>Enjoy the 20th century, Yankees. We are the future.</i>

Could've been said in 1918, too.
   15. jmurph Posted: October 29, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5778686)
It was a bland series, save game 3

These things always make me laugh because, like, tell this to my nerves every time the Dodgers were at bat last night! But yeah, in retrospect, they pretty much cruised through the post season, which considering the competition, was very impressive.
   16. jmurph Posted: October 29, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5778697)
Alright Red Sox fans, rank the wins (in our lifetimes):

Obviously 04 is first. I'm torn between this year and 13 as the second best- I think this team is the most likable, but the 13 team was sort of a surprise, in some ways, which was very exciting. Also that was the year my first kid was born so I have a personal connection in my mind, holding my baby while watching those games. But I'll take recency bias and go with:

04
18
13
07 (which was also great! All World Series wins are great!)

EDIT: The cool thing about 07 was the feeling of, oh this is just a thing that's possible now. 04 was the thing we'd been waiting for forever, but 07 was, hey, we cheer for a great organization that is capable of doing this every few years.
   17. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5778710)
I feel bad for 2007 because I think it is always going to be last on these kinds of lists. It was a great team and a great year of course but that team really had no defining moments and being so soon after 2004 it just paled in comparison.

I think if forced I'd take 2013 over 2018 just because of the shock factor. That really came out of nowhere, no one was expecting it. The others were all situations where we knew the team was going to be very good and have a chance.

As for this team, I'm just so happy to see this group get over the hump. It's a great great team and really seems like a great bunch of guys. 2004 and 2007 both had some guys that I loved but could definitely be a bit difficult when they wanted to. This team just strikes me as a genuine group of people. Also there is something to the homegrown nature of a lot of the guys, I've been following guys like Mookie, JBJ, Bennie, Barnes, Vazquez, Devers since they were drafted/signed. I remember struggling to find a picture of Devers when he signed for the old RLRS blog and when I found one he was standing in front of a rack of wine bottles which I found amusing since he was 16. I remember seeing Mookie at Lowell and he was the worst shortstop I'd ever seen, every throw to first bounced. Never did I think he would amount to anything.

And man, I forgot to include Bogaerts on my above list even though he's in that group but because he came up so early he feels like an old timer.
   18. jmurph Posted: October 29, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5778740)
I've said it in like 3 other places but I'm also just so thrilled for Price. I remember how excited most of us were when he signed, and his tenure has largely not lived up to the billing, so it was great to see him be so good several times in the postseason.
   19. SandyRiver Posted: October 29, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5778746)
It was a bland series, save game 3

IMO, the G3-G4 couplet was anything but bland. After G3 all the media folk were chanting that Alex Cora had shot all his bullets trying to go up 3-0, wrecked his pitchers, had injured/slumping/exhausted batters, and that Max Muncy's walk-off would be remembered as the turning point of this WS. Then Puig put the Dodgers up 4-zip the next night, a team 54-0 this season in games where they've had a 4+ run lead, and I could imagine those same guys saying, "Yup, just like we said." G4 7th-9th really showed off what this Sox team was all about - no lead is safe, the killer hit(s) can come from anywhere in the line-up (or bench), and the much-worried-about bullpen continued to be amazing.

Edit, upon reading #18: At first I was disappointed that Price didn't get the MVP, if for no other reason to fully quash those who claimed he'd always choke in the PS. After some thought, I agree with the choice - the mid-30s journeyman coming out of nowhere to make one key hit after another. He also probably will enjoy the new pickup more than would a guy making 30-huge per year.
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: October 29, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5778764)
I feel bad for 2007 because I think it is always going to be last on these kinds of lists. It was a great team and a great year of course but that team really had no defining moments and being so soon after 2004 it just paled in comparison.


The one thing that made 2007 stand out from 2004 was the Sox didn't go the wild card route that time (that was the first division title since 95). They were the best regular season team. Then they were the best postseason team (just like this year). It was the first time in my life as a Sox fan where I could say definitively they were the best team in all of baseball when the regular season ended, and then they followed it up with a WS win.

2013 stands out since it was was the only fluky team in the bunch (Yes, they had the best record that season, but it was built on some overperformances and they surrounded that season with three last-place finishes).
   21. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 29, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5778779)
Could've been said in 1918, too.

As long as we don't go and sell Mookie to the Evil Empire, .....
   22. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5778798)
Win/loss by month:

April: 21-7
May: 18-11
June: 17-10
July:19-6
Aug: 18-9
September: 15-11

Come the end of September, I thought their best ball was behind them. They lost 2 of 3 to Houston and Cleveland and 4 of 6 games vs the Yankees. I thought they would be bounced in the ALDS and ALCS. If you had asked me in August, I was supremely confident that they were the best team in baseball. With that performance in the playoffs, it's easy to say they're the best team again, but it sure didn't think that in early October.
   23. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5778799)
He also probably will enjoy the new pickup more than would a guy making 30-huge per year.


I agree with your general point, but despite all of his trials and tribulations Pearce has made a shade over $23 million in his career. A new truck aint exactly a strain on his pocketbook.
   24. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5778842)
Coming into the playoffs, there was much worry about the relief pitching.

If I have it correct, the Sox' relief pitching in the postseason put up a 2.03 ERA (and only 1 unearned run on top). If we pull out the relief pitching of Sale, Porcello, Eovaldi, Rodriguez, and Price, it only rises to 2.05.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5778846)
If I have it correct, the Sox' relief pitching in the postseason put up a 2.03 ERA (and only 1 unearned run on top). If we pull out the relief pitching of Sale, Porcello, Eovaldi, Rodriguez, and Price, it only rises to 2.05.


And if you pull out the one relief pitcher we felt we could count on?

   26. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5778852)
My numbers in #24 might not actually be right. The article at TheRinger says 2.71 ERA.
   27. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5778864)
The bullpen came through. I've been as critical and skeptical of Joe Kelly as anyone but the dude absolutely put it together at the right moment. It's amazing to think back to the disaster on Opening Day and then contrast that with his dominance last night.
   28. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5778869)
It's amazing to think back to the disaster on Opening Day and then contrast that with his dominance last night.

He's a grinder who just battles on every pitch and believes in himself and his teammates and never gives up.
   29. jmurph Posted: October 29, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5778874)
The bullpen came through. I've been as critical and skeptical of Joe Kelly as anyone but the dude absolutely put it together at the right moment. It's amazing to think back to the disaster on Opening Day and then contrast that with his dominance last night.

With apologies for briefly turning the page, any chance he's the opening day closer next year?
   30. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5778882)
He's a free agent so I expect him to be elsewhere.

Another guy I forgot about but just looking at Globe at lunch they had a wonderful picture of the guys running out of the dugout. Hector Velazquez had a HUGE smile on his face. If anyone had a right to feel aggrieved at being left off the post-season roster it was probably him. He had a great year, certainly better than Workman or Pomeranz but he looked so damned excited.
   31. Chris Fluit Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5778889)
IMO, the G3-G4 couplet was anything but bland. After G3 all the media folk were chanting that Alex Cora had shot all his bullets trying to go up 3-0, wrecked his pitchers, had injured/slumping/exhausted batters, and that Max Muncy's walk-off would be remembered as the turning point of this WS. Then Puig put the Dodgers up 4-zip the next night, a team 54-0 this season in games where they've had a 4+ run lead, and I could imagine those same guys saying, "Yup, just like we said." G4 7th-9th really showed off what this Sox team was all about - no lead is safe, the killer hit(s) can come from anywhere in the line-up (or bench), and the much-worried-about bullpen continued to be amazing.

As a neutral observer, I agree with this assessment. Game 4 was pretty great. Two less-heralded pitchers tossing up zeroes inning after inning. Then the wild swings of momentum/win probability late in the game. That was pretty good baseball.
   32. jmurph Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5778921)
He's a free agent so I expect him to be elsewhere.

True, but Kimbrel is, too. I guess Barnes might have a line on it. Anyway, thoughts about next year now over! Back to celebrating.
   33. Lyford Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5778924)
It was a bland series, save game 3
,

I think that's silly. There was nothing whatsoever "bland" about game 4, for sure. There was much drama in game 5, too - it was a one-run game through five, a pitcher's duel between two starters with a reputation for not being able to get it done in the post-season. The Dodgers never led in game 1, but they tied it twice and cut the lead to one another time, late. Two of the best pitchers in the game started, but each team scored in four different innings.

I can imagine a Dodger fan being frustrated by game five, but I don't think "bland" is at all a reasonable assessment.
   34. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5778944)
I think it's reasonable for this to be seen as a pretty bland series. Games 3 and 4 were classics but other than that there wasn't a late lead change in the other games and the team that was heavily favored going in won it fairly comfortably. Just to compare it to a recent 5 gamer I think the Royals-Mets was a lot more exciting than this one for a neutral. Two games turned around in the ninth inning and game four turned in the 8th.

It's a five game series so it's never going to be great and at the same time it's a World Series so I don't think "bland" is the right word but by World Series standards it was.
   35. ericr Posted: October 29, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5778960)
edit: on preview, my point was already made.

Personally, I'll put 2007 above 2013. 2013 was wonderful, out of nowhere, a great salve on the chicken-n-beer wound, but 2007 made it clear that 2004 wasn't a fluke and that we weren't going to wait another 86 years.
   36. , Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5778983)
These things always make me laugh because, like, tell this to my nerves every time the Dodgers were at bat last night! But yeah, in retrospect, they pretty much cruised through the post season, which considering the competition, was very impressive.

I totally get it about nerves and, if you were a fan of either team, I'm sure it wasn't a bland series. And it was the World ####### Series, so it was great, even if it wasn't the most entertaining version of itself.

But, effectively, six games were played. The Sox won four handily, tied one and lost one by one run. I've had this debate about series all my life, with some people wanting to hype less competitive series up based on the news cycles between games. A lot of stupid stuff gets said between every WS game and, again, if you're a fan of either team, it's easy to buy into (my aging memory tells me I did this when my team went to a lot of WS). But neutral fans knew there wasn't anything to suggest a sudden Dodger resurgence.

The Dodgers basically had two significant leads in the series and blew both of them. They had a stagnant offense.

I loved watching the World Series, as I always do. But, as far as that goes, this one was not a highlight (unless you were a Sox or Dodger fan). It's okay, they can't all be great.

(Also, I started typing this three hours ago just before being slammed by office visitors so I probably owe cokes or the conversation has moved on).
   37. , Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:10 PM (#5778985)
It's a five game series so it's never going to be great and at the same time it's a World Series so I don't think "bland" is the right word but by World Series standards it was.

This is the tl;dr of my post in 36. Coke.
   38. Srul Itza Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5779005)
Just noticed: Pearce had only four hits in the WS. All of them were XBH, and all drove in runs -- three home runs, and a bases-clearing double.

Quality, not quantity.
   39. , Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5779009)
That has to be the fewest hits for a WS MVP, non-P division, doesn't it?
   40. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5779013)
Maybe, but JBJ won the ALCS MVP just last week with 3 hits.
   41. Srul Itza Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5779029)
And again, all XBH, and all drove in runs -- two home runs, and a bases-clearing double.
   42. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5779038)
Personally, I'll put 2007 above 2013. 2013 was wonderful, out of nowhere, a great salve on the chicken-n-beer wound, but 2007 made it clear that 2004 wasn't a fluke and that we weren't going to wait another 86 years.


You know what one of my issues with 2007 was? This is really stupid, like really really stupid, but the merchandise sucked. Like all my stuff from 2007 just isn't really great. There was some great 2004 and 2013 merch and the 2018 merchandise looks really good too. 2007 just didn't do it for me. The logo was lame, the shirts were meh, the hats, everything just wasn't great. It's stupid but there it is.
   43. SoSH U at work Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5779045)
This is really stupid, like really really stupid, but the merchandise sucked.


Well, admitting it is the first step.
   44. , Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5779052)
I wasn't arguing against Pearce, just figuring that has to be a historic low in hits for the MVP. Which is very 2018.
   45. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 29, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5779055)
I would've made Pearce and Price co-MVP's.
   46. SandyRiver Posted: October 29, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5779077)
I would've made Pearce and Price co-MVP's.

That would've been very appropriate.

As for Bosox WS wins this century, I can understand ericr's rationale for preferring 2007 to 2013. However, Big Papi became my favorite Red Sox during the 2004 ALCS and stayed that way until he retired, so my vote goes to 2013 because of what he did then. His 2007 WS wasn't exactly chopped liver, but pales before the latter classic.
   47. villageidiom Posted: October 29, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5779100)
Edit, upon reading #18: At first I was disappointed that Price didn't get the MVP, if for no other reason to fully quash those who claimed he'd always choke in the PS.
Yeah, but given Pearce's performance it would have set up the story that Price only won because people felt bad about the narrative. And later people would take "he won because it's a good story" to mean "he didn't deserve to win". And in turn that would later be taken as "he wasn't good". I think it's better for Pearce to have won, and for the Nation to be singing the praises of Price forevermore as having also been worthy.

It doesn't get Price a truck, but that was an ugly truck anyway.
   48. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: October 29, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5779102)
This is really stupid, like really really stupid, but the merchandise sucked.


What does the good WS/post season merch look like? I don't think we can really blame the Red Sox for that, though. MLB has really gone crazy with the merchandise for every playoff round. The shirts with the phrases like "Our Crew, Our October" are silly and seem out of touch with the fan base. Everyone having a towel to twirl above their heads this post season seemed better than the thunder sticks, but only just.
   49. karlmagnus Posted: October 29, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5779107)
Personally I shall always regard the brave lads of 1912 as #1. 105/154 >108/162 and 109/161 >119/176.
   50. jmurph Posted: October 29, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5779121)
What does the good WS/post season merch look like? I don't think we can really blame the Red Sox for that, though. MLB has really gone crazy with the merchandise for every playoff round.

My mom sent me a Patriots t-shirt a few years ago with the text "Hold down the East." This was like 14 or 15 years deep into the Brady era, I can't remember the last time winning the AFC East seemed like a big deal!
   51. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: October 29, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5779126)
Personally I shall always regard the brave lads of 1912 as #1. 105/154 >108/162 and 109/161 >119/176.


You would say that. Are you still beating the drum for Duquette to return?
   52. karlmagnus Posted: October 29, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5779134)
I have to say that Dombrowski's strategy of having two hyper-expensive #1 pitchers worked at last; when one had an owie or a psychological trauma, the other was able to step up. So congrats to all -- this really is the best Sox team of my lifetime (I just missed 1912!), even though it has no pitcher like Pedro or Smokey Joe and no hitter like Manny or Ted Williams. Hope they can keep it together as long as possible.

Pity about Duquette -- hope he finds a new billet, even if not with the Sox. Ditto Showalter, whom I've liked ever since he ran us so close in '95.
   53. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 29, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5779264)
What does the good WS/post season merch look like?

Print this on a beach towel.
   54. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 29, 2018 at 07:57 PM (#5779265)
I think it's better for Pearce to have won, and for the Nation to be singing the praises of Price forevermore as having also been worthy.

It doesn't get Price a truck, but that was an ugly truck anyway.


Much better was when the winner got a Corvette.
   55. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 29, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5779339)
Bullpen catcher to Bullpen Coach to Pitching Coach. Dana LeVangie has done alright for himself.
   56. Mark Armour Posted: October 30, 2018 at 02:22 AM (#5779409)
So congrats to all -- this really is the best Sox team of my lifetime (I just missed 1912!), even though it has no pitcher like Pedro or Smokey Joe and no hitter like Manny or Ted Williams. Hope they can keep it together as long as possible.


Mookie Betts OPS+ this year (186) matches the highest of Manny's career, and beats the best he ever had for the Red Sox.

As a *player*, of course it is wipeout: Manny's best WAR in Boston was 6.3, while Betts put up 10.9. In fact, Betts' WAR this year was better then Ted Williams ever had. Only Yaz exceeded Betts as a Red Sock in the past 100 years.


   57. SandyRiver Posted: October 30, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5779433)
Hard to expect anyone to be a "Ted Williams", who IMO is one of the 3 best all time with the bat. And though it's only one year, JD certainly had a Manny-type season, though without the weirdness.
BBRef gives TW a Mookie-matching 10.9 WAR for 1946, also 10.6 in 41 and 42 (his 3 top WAR years split by WW2), and since WAR is a counting stat, the extra 8 games made a difference. (Of course, Mookie missed a lot more than 8 games and the WAR differences are insignificant.)
   58. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 30, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5779447)
Stringing all this best ever talk along, regarding current roster, how many of these players will we look back on as HOFers? My rankings:

Betts - clearly on the way
Pedroia - can he manage a year or two of productivity?
Sale - will his body hold up?
Price - can he pitch well for another 5-7 years? at some point starting pitchers are going to be looked at differently, if Price holds on long enough he could benefit from that
Bogaerts - actually pretty similar to Barry Larkin through age 25, needs to pick up his D, and keep this level of productivity at the plate
Kimbrel - I know, I know, he's a reliever, but he's been very good for a while now, more IP and a better ERA+ than either Hoffman or Rivera at age 30
JD Martinez - pretty much where Ortiz was at 30 years old, I doubt he does as well the rest of the way
Benintendi/Devers/Rodriguez - all are young enough that they *could* become HoFers. probably not, but they could
JBJ - too old, too inconsistent
C - no
1B - no



   59. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 30, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5779466)
If you want to go for a long shot look at Rick Porcello. 135 wins through age 29, durable and good enough to be desired by good teams. He could put up some big win totals. I suspect in the end his career is more Buehrle or Moyer and unless he gets to 300 he doesn't go.

The other guy you didn't mention worth a mention is Cora. 2 WS titles starts the discussion and while it's not an automatic it gets you rolling. Cora is young and already has one. Every manager with 3 titles is in or will be (Bochy) and getting 2 titles is about a 50-50 shot (6-6 with Francona presumably going in to make it 7-6).

And this puts Dombrowski from questionable to likely doesn't it?
   60. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 30, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5779587)
I also forgot Kinsler, very similar stats as Pedroia, but none of the narrative.
   61. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 30, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5779748)
In actual if not surprising news the Red Sox have picked up Chris Sale's $15,000,000 option for 2019.
   62. J. Sosa Posted: October 30, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5779761)
Late to the party, I would probably go in order of most enjoyable to relative least:

2018

2013

2007

2004

2004 was a near death experience. 2007 they were not a wild card, had a bunch of fun homegrown players, and had one of my favorite Sox pitchers of all time (Okajima) and maybe my all time favorite player Ellsbury. 2013 more of the same plus it was pretty random. 2018 it combined everything. Home grown fun players, dominance, pitching, you name it. To be alive to witness a Sox team in the conversation with the 1998 Yankees, Big Red Machine, etc. by neutrals, well, I am a simple man. I will take it.

Also, sincere thanks to Andy for the kind words here and elsewhere about the team and historical context. Andy will have to take the second spot for favorite Yankees fans this week.

My mother in law has been going to Yankees games since the fifties and allows that this Sox edition was “pretty good”. Effusive!
   63. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 30, 2018 at 05:15 PM (#5779805)
Well, it's hard not to respect a team that has patience at the plate, knows the difference between an 0-2 count and a 2-0 count, rather easily beats the other 3 best teams in baseball when everything was on the line, and shows the kind of selflessness that I used to read about in John Tunis juveniles. And it's impossible not to like players like Mookie and Martinez and Bogaerts and Benintendi and True Oriole Pearce, or not to admire the way Price turned his narrative around by winning the Ralph Terry award. Just because I rooted against them in the first two rounds doesn't mean that I'm a blind man.

And beyond that, the Red Sox give the Yankees something to aspire to, the same way the Yanks gave the Red Sox something to shoot for from 1996 to 2003. I'm just looking forward to a rematch next year, when the shoe might be on the other foot. And how can anyone not like Judge and Didi and Gleyber and Voit? Great players and likeable personalities should always transcend love of laundry.
   64. Mark Armour Posted: October 30, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5779835)
I used to say that the 2007 team was the best team of the the three, and 2008 as my favorite of the near-misses. They had a good shot to repeat that year, but the Rays were a great team.

I was commenting on Twitter the other day how much I like Cora as a manager, and my first thought is that he is the best they have ever had. However, I also think he has a much easier team to manage -- sure, some of the atmosphere is from him, but guys like Betts, Bogaerts and Martinez are so calm and ego-free (at least externally) and even guys like Sale and Price (each known to be temperamental) are loved by their teammates. Reading Francona's book, you get the sense that Terry just had one drama nightmare after the other. The 2004-era team was fun, but filled with massive egos and personalities, and you can see why other teams (and fans) would hate them.
   65. Morty Causa Posted: October 30, 2018 at 06:57 PM (#5779839)
According to B-Ref, Ted Williams had a 10.9 WAR in 1946, after having missed the previous three consecutive seasons to military service.
   66. Darren Posted: October 30, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5779919)
Congrats, pals! Fun year.

As for the HOF, with 35.2 bWAR, Mookie is #19 all time through age 25, #13 all time for ages 21 to 25 (between Arky Vaughn and Ripken). That total of 35.2 bWAR is already good enough to be a borderline HOF, and he's done it in only 4.5 years. At this point, it'd be really surprising if he didn't put up a HOF-calibur career.
   67. ericr Posted: October 31, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5780330)
What a season!

On Mookie and his HOF chances: I wouldn't say that 35.2 is borderline HOF in this day and age. Jim Rice is the only position player in the 2000s to be elected to the HOF by the BBWAA with less than 50 WAR, at 47.7--and it took him 15 years to get in. And there are 413 position players who have put up more than 35.2bWAR!

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

By eyeing this list, and seeing who got in to the HOF from different eras, I'd say the argument today generally starts around 50-60 WAR, and you probably really need 70 to make it hard to keep you out. Cano's at 69.2, Utley's at 65.4, Ian Kinsler's at 57.3. Are they HOFers? Maybe? Andruw Jones has 62.8 and only got 7.5% of the ballot on his first try.

Of course, in any individual situation, the narrative matters. Look at Beltre! Luckily for Mookie, he's got a few years to burnish his credentials.
   68. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: October 31, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5780333)
Mookie, if he stays healthy, is a lock.
   69. Nasty Nate Posted: November 01, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5780769)
Dombrowski has hinted that Kimbrel will receive a Qualifying Offer.
   70. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 01, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5780911)
Probably the smart move. The odds of him taking it would seem to be pretty low. I expect this to be a pretty good market for RP, after the year of the bullpenning. And if he does... 1/18m is hardly crippling. Hell probably tradable for value, if they want to get rid of him that badly.
   71. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 01, 2018 at 10:38 PM (#5781079)
Probably the smart move. The odds of him taking it would seem to be pretty low.

Given what a drag it was on last year's free agents, Kimbrell might be better off taking the $17.9M qualifying offer. That's a $4.9M raise (38%) for a guy who's already earned ~ $55M. Sure, he'd miss out on the certainty that comes with a 3 or 4 year deal now, but if he bet on himself and won he'd make more coming off a good season with no QO. Some risk, but more players should probably take a good look at accepting qualifying offers given how the market has changed.
   72. Nasty Nate Posted: November 02, 2018 at 10:06 AM (#5781173)
Given what a drag it was on last year's free agents, Kimbrell might be better off taking the $17.9M qualifying offer. That's a $4.9M raise (38%) for a guy who's already earned ~ $55M. Sure, he'd miss out on the certainty that comes with a 3 or 4 year deal now, but if he bet on himself and won he'd make more coming off a good season with no QO. Some risk, but more players should probably take a good look at accepting qualifying offers given how the market has changed.
Players now have some time to decide whether to accept, during which they can negotiate with other teams. So if Kimbrel determines during that time that he probably won't get 2/$35m or 3/$48m, he might accept and, as you say, bet on himself.
   73. Darren Posted: November 02, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5781364)
On Mookie and his HOF chances: I wouldn't say that 35.2 is borderline HOF in this day and age.


You are correct, of course. I meant to say that it was a borderline total for a 7-year peak, compiled in just 4.5 years. Sorry about that.
   74. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 14, 2018 at 08:45 PM (#5787612)
World Series champion manager Alex Cora extended to 2021.
   75. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 15, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5788155)
MookieVP!
   76. villageidiom Posted: November 15, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5788195)
He is, after all, the most valuable Mookie.

(checks Mookie Wilson's BB-Ref page, sees 22 career WAR)

Yes. Betts is the Most Valuable Mookie. Never doubted him for a second.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
robneyer
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Let’s Get Off-Seasoning!
(6 - 12:26am, Nov 17)
Last: The Run Fairy

The Greatest Red Sox Team...EVER!!!!
(76 - 8:14pm, Nov 15)
Last: villageidiom

Let’s Get World Serious!
(69 - 5:26pm, Oct 28)
Last: Toby

American League Champions!!!!
(32 - 5:17pm, Oct 20)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

ALCS Thoughts
(94 - 5:37pm, Oct 18)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

Damage Done
(46 - 12:18pm, Oct 11)
Last: Answer Guy, without side hustles.

Sox Therapy ALDS Preview
(81 - 4:49pm, Oct 10)
Last: covelli chris p

WOW
(11 - 8:31am, Oct 09)
Last: SandyRiver

Hope Springs Eternal (Sox Therapy Predictions)
(33 - 7:40pm, Oct 01)
Last: jacksone (AKA It's OK...)

Decisions Decisions
(32 - 8:39am, Oct 01)
Last: Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature

Finishing Up - The Sox Therapy Concernometer
(82 - 3:58pm, Sep 26)
Last: Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head

IT’S OVER
(7 - 4:31pm, Sep 23)
Last: Darren

11 Days Later
(89 - 10:40am, Sep 22)
Last: Nasty Nate

6,036 Days
(15 - 2:49pm, Sep 20)
Last: Nasty Nate

11 Days To...Something
(49 - 12:28am, Sep 13)
Last: Nasty Nate

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.5435 seconds
58 querie(s) executed