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   301. dave h Posted: August 27, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4219196)
No one thinks they were just dumping Gonzalez, but a lot of people are calling his contract fair, or a slight overpay. That means that losing him in order to dump Crawford is worth it. If Gonzalez is actually a very valuable, difficult to replace asset, as I think, then it's not so clear.
   302. Darren Posted: August 27, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4219214)
I think the scarcity issue is a good point and a really hard one to quantify. On the one hand, it may be very hard to find the 4-5 WAR expected of AGonz spread throughout several players. On the other, that way they won't need to commit for 7 years to a single guy with an iffy shoulder to get it.

In the bigger picture, the fact that we're debating Gonzalez being worth his contract makes me think this is a good deal.
   303. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 27, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4219253)
darren

it's become somewhat overrused on bbtf but that doesn't mean the following isn't filled with truth and that it is a rare thing for a club to get value on any contract where the bulk of a players contract is centered around his mid-30's.

red sox made a sensible deal.
   304. Dan Posted: August 27, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4219266)
So Iglesias and now Kalish are both on the active roster, but not playing. What the #### is the point of that? Maybe neither one has a future starting for the Red Sox, but this is the time to play them to find out.

Instead we get Aviles at SS, Ciriaco at 3B, and Scott Podsednik in LF. What the hell?
   305. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 27, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4219273)
According to Alex Speier's twitter account Valentine said that "Igelsias could use the rest."

I'm not too bothered by Kalish not playing today but if it lingers like Iglesias has I'll be annoyed. I'm not sure what the point of calling these guys up is if not to play them.
   306. Dan Posted: August 27, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4219285)
I could be wrong, but I almost get a vibe of Valentine telling them to #### off about the future since he knows he won't be here, so he wants to play to win now to make his resumé look a little better.
   307. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 27, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4219289)
I could be wrong, but I almost get a vibe of Valentine telling them to #### off about the future since he knows he won't be here, so he wants to play to win now to make his resumé look a little better.
It certainly doesn't give off a vibe of a manager and front office on the same page, planning to win next year and redeem themselves. It's of the better recent signs that Valentine is not long for Boston.
   308. SoSH U at work Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4219292)
so he wants to play to win now to make his resumé look a little better.


For whom? ESPN?

I can't imagine Valentine getting another chance stateside. He's old, has an uninspiring record and will certainly (and deservedly) shoulder a hell of a lot of the blame for the clown show.
   309. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4219305)
I view it the opposite way, it's a good sign for Valentine. He's rewarding one of the "good soldiers" during this season (assuming Aviles has been such) and being given reign over the clubhouse.
   310. Dan Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4219313)
If Valentine was comfortable in his position and expecting to return, I think he'd be playing guys like Iglesias to get ideas for next season rather than rewarding anyone from this year. I have to agree with Mikael that it seems to indicate the team may have even already told Valentine they're going another direction next season.
   311. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4219322)
I view it the opposite way, it's a good sign for Valentine. He's rewarding one of the "good soldiers" during this season (assuming Aviles has been such) and being given reign over the clubhouse.
If that's true - and it's a plausible interpretation - then we're ######. If Valentine is pulling a Jimy and not playing the guys that Cherington wants him to play but instead rewarding "his" guys, and if this is going to be the state of things for the foreseeable future because Lucchino has his back, then there's really no chance of the Red Sox making good decisions and winning anything for the foreseeable future. God that's depressing.
   312. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4219325)
Instead we get Aviles at SS, Ciriaco at 3B, and Scott Podsednik in LF. What the hell?

Granted they aren't expected to continue, but Ciriaco & Posednik have hit like All-Stars. I don't know how they are doing it, and perhaps Murray Chass should investigate, but how do you bench folks like that for a September call-up? Seems like you have to wait for them to slump a bit or you're telling the world that the remaining games in 2012 mean nothing.
   313. SoSH U at work Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4219326)
If that's true - and it's a plausible interpretation - then we're ######. If Valentine is pulling a Jimy and not playing the guys that Cherington wants him to play but instead rewarding "his" guys, and if this is going to be the state of things for the foreseeable future because Lucchino has his back, then there's really no chance of the Red Sox making good decisions and winning anything for the foreseeable future. God that's depressing.


C'mon, don't you miss the days when our skipper was managing out of spite?

   314. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4219327)
If Valentine isn't playing who they want him to play they should fire him,especially if you think he's not coming back. What difference does it make who manages for the rest of this year?
   315. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4219330)
312...what do the remaining games mean? They're done.
   316. Dan Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4219332)
Seems like you have to wait for them to slump a bit or you're telling the world that the remaining games in 2012 mean nothing.


Didn't the trade already tell the world that?
   317. Dan Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4219335)
C'mon, don't you miss the days when our skipper was managing out of spite?


How can I miss them when they're back?
   318. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4219339)
If that's true - and it's a plausible interpretation - then we're ######. If Valentine is pulling a Jimy and not playing the guys that Cherington wants him to play but instead rewarding "his" guys, and if this is going to be the state of things for the foreseeable future because Lucchino has his back, then there's really no chance of the Red Sox making good decisions and winning anything for the foreseeable future. God that's depressing.


I don't think it necessarily means they are on different pages. Based on the trade I think that Lucchino, Cherington and Valentine have come to the decision that you can in fact fire all the players. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the plan is to get Iglesias some games but they want to let Aviles play it out as a reward to him as well as a message to everyone in the clubhouse that if you are a good team player (by whatever their definition is) that you will be rewarded for that.
   319. Toby Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4219344)
I like this trade a ton, for all the reasons that everyone else who likes the trade likes the trade. But I also like this trade for another reason, which I haven't seen discussed -- humanitarian reasons. Simply put, it made lots of people happy. It made the Sox front office happy and it made the fan base happy and it made the Dodgers players happy and it made the traded Boston players happy.

Not everyone is happy, of course. Probably there are some people in the Sox clubhouse who are pretty unhappy. And there are some Sox fans who are unhappy, to be sure. And maybe some of the players coming from LA aren't happy to be coming to Boston. But all in all I think it was a plus happy move.

In fact, I would say this was one trade where it feels like we actually got a pony.
   320. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4219345)
I don't think it necessarily means they are on different pages.
I don't buy for a second that Cherington called up Iglesias and Kalish so that they could get some time on the major league bench.
   321. karlmagnus Posted: August 27, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4219348)
Pretty decent pitching performance by Dice-K today, albeit against KC. I vote we re-sign him for 2/10 if he'll come for that -- we can always trade him if the kid pitchers go on a tear.
   322. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 27, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4219413)
It was ridiculous to hire Valentine in the first place, and this year has gone about as badly as could have been predicted.

Sometimes guys like Cherington aren't actually the smartest guys in the room.
   323. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 27, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4219424)

Sometimes guys like Cherington aren't actually the smartest guys in the room.


I'm fairly certain the average MLB GM isn't that bright.

Given that you have to be either a) a ex-player, or b) work 15 years of 80+ hour weeks at sub-minimum wage to get there (with an infinitesimal chance of actually making it), I relatively confident the really smart people are weeded out.
   324. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 28, 2012 at 02:18 AM (#4219819)
I wouldn't mind bringing back Daisuke on a 1 year deal, but nothing longer.

   325. Dale Sams Posted: August 28, 2012 at 03:18 AM (#4219835)
Remember how i said a full-time Ciriaco would be a 4 WAR player? He's already outWARed 3 full-time shortstops...in 42 games.

...and his BABIP is .480 (!)

But seriously now. What do you do? Seriously let him and Aviles go into ST to fight for the job? Let them trade off since it's not like the Sox make the playoffs next year and trade one or both if a real offer comes along?
   326. Dan Posted: August 28, 2012 at 03:30 AM (#4219840)
Trade him to someone stupid. Like Kevin Towers. Conveniently he happens to have a player the Red Sox could use...
   327. RobertMachemer Posted: August 28, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4219880)
Ray and Snapper wrote:

Sometimes guys like Cherington aren't actually the smartest guys in the room.

I'm fairly certain the average MLB GM isn't that bright.

Given that you have to be either a) a ex-player, or b) work 15 years of 80+ hour weeks at sub-minimum wage to get there (with an infinitesimal chance of actually making it), I relatively confident the really smart people are weeded out.
I'm fairly certain that Cherington is reasonably bright, and that he would likely end up in at least the top 90% of the population (and possibly quite a bit higher) if tested. And I have no idea how long he worked at sub-minimum wage (or why that's important, since apparently he was correct in seeing that he had opportunities for advancement), but from what I can tell, he advanced fairly quickly through the ranks and has been upper-level management within the Red Sox (his hometown team) for at least a decade, rising through the ranks despite changes in ownership and several changes in management to finally end up with his dream job (one that pretty much all Sox fans on the board occasionally dream of having).

Whether or not he is particularly good at his job is something on which I don't feel I know enough to say yet, but I see no reason to think he's any less smart than either of you. I don't mean that to be damning him with faint praise, I am not suggesting you guys are unintelligent (not in the least), but from what I know of him and of you, I see no reason to think either of you should assume you're brighter than he is.
   328. Dan Posted: August 28, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4220129)
I was looking at Justin Morneau's 2012 splits to show how much he's been killing RHP in another thread, and I also noticed how big his home/road splits have been. Morneau this season against RHP: .309/.375/.574 (150 sOPS+). Morneau would probably also see a boost in his numbers going from Target Field to Fenway Park. His home/road sOPS+ splits for 2012: 101/139. He's basically the same hitter at Target Field and on the road, save for hitting 12 homers on the road vs. just 5 at home this season in basically identical playing time. All of his other rates are basically dead even.

So if you bring him to Fenway and platoon him against tough LHP, you could actually get better production from Morneau than they were getting out of Adrian Gonzalez! Obviously as a big name player and a former MVP, a manager probably wouldn't put him into a straight platoon, but if you sat him against the lefties with the most extreme platoon splits you could probably get a .900+ OPS out of him. He's not quite the defender that Gonzalez is at first base, but he's no slouch there either. And Sands would make a nice platoon partner at league minimum salary. Sands being able to play corner OF also makes him a better use of a roster spot than someone like Mauro Gomez who would really only see time at 1B and maybe DH as a short side platoon player.

Some more Morneau splits:
Career vs RHP: .295/.376/.532
Career vs LHP: .254/.302/.430

Career at Target Field: .279/.360/.422 with just 9 homers in 534 PA (this is probably impacted adversely by his post-concussion time, but obviously it also points to how hard it is to hit homers at Target Field)
Career at Fenway Park: .375/.425/.604 with 4 homers and 10 doubles in 106 PA (mostly compiled against pretty good pitching as the Red Sox have mainly had good pitching during Morneau's career)
Career at Yankee Stadium: .296/.367/.556 in 60 PA
Career at New Yankee Stadium: .458 /.536/1.000 in 56 PA (!!!)
   329. dave h Posted: August 28, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4220473)
If you're going to platoon at 1B, at least one of those players pretty much has to be able to play 3B or corner OF, right? A full-time DH and two 1B kills your roster.
   330. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 28, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4220592)
DiceK on waivers! I bet someone claims him! I bet they let him go!
   331. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: August 28, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4220605)
If you're going to platoon at 1B, at least one of those players pretty much has to be able to play 3B or corner OF, right? A full-time DH and two 1B kills your roster.


It depends on how the OF situation shakes out, but the Sox could always have the 4th OF learn to play 1B. Cody Ross could probably do it, though he'll presumably be elsewhere next year.

EDIT: Oh, and Mauro Gomez won the IL MVP award. You can't not play the MVP!
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