BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: Trade Deadline Thread

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1. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:02 PM (#3889129)

Sox get Aviles for Navarro and Kendal Volz.

Aviles

Volz

Navarro

Sox Prospects

Navarro

Volz

2. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:05 PM (#3889132)

3. Dan Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3889152)

Suposedly Kuroda has told the Dodgers he won't accept a trade, so he's probably off the list.

4. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3889153)

The MLBTR link leads to some interesting conclusions:

1) If the Yankees won't trade any of Banuelos, Betances, Nova, or Montero, they aren't getting Jimenez.
2) If it takes Middlebrooks and Ranaudo to get Jimenez, the Red Sox should probably do it. Ranaudo is looking like Hansen 2.0.
3) If it takes Porcello or Scherzer to get Jimenez, there's no point in the Tigers trading for Ubaldo.

5. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#3889155)

Kuroda doesn't want to get paid? Who is he, Peyton Manning?

6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:54 PM (#3889158)

Its a sellers market thus far, no?

7. Dan Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:55 PM (#3889159)

Dodgers' official Twitter says Kuroda won't be traded.

8. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:58 PM (#3889161)

I could be wrong, but, Bedard isn't an upgrade on Wakefield, in the short term.

9. Dan Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:02 PM (#3889164)

Bedard would be a huge upgrade over Wakefield, unless you think his first start off the DL was representative of what he'll be for the rest of the season.

10. Dock Ellis on Acid

Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:07 PM (#3889169)

Yesterday notwithstanding, Bedard is having an excellent season. In fact, he's never had a bad year, just unhealthy ones.

11. Dan Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:15 PM (#3889173)

@peteabe: just a hunch, based on nothing, but in the end the #RedSox will pull a surprise for a starter. Name not previously bandied about...

That's kind of been my thought all along as well. Billingsley was the name that came to mind for me, but obviously he's not likely to be traded. But I do think it will be someone completely out of the blue like that who hasn't been a subject of many/any rumors.

12. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:15 PM (#3889174)

The Red Sox don't need starters with health issues. They have 3 right now.

13. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:17 PM (#3889177)

The Red Sox don't need starters with health issues. They have 3 right now.

I think they figure that they'll just turn whoever they get into an injury-prone starter, so they might as well start with a guy who's already injury-prone.

14. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:26 PM (#3889180)

If it's Garza, I'll cry a little, and then say a prayer that he decides to pitch like he did 3 years ago.

15. Dan Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:29 PM (#3889183)

Supposedly the Indians are leading the pack for Ubaldo Jimenez.

16. Dan Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:30 PM (#3889185)

Garza has pitched better this year than he did 3 years ago, he's just pitching in front of Chicago's godawful defense.

17. Dock Ellis on Acid

Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:32 PM (#3889187)

The Indians are going a little nuts this year. Supposedly they're also close to getting Ludwick as well.

18. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:04 AM (#3889227)

Cross Ubaldo off the list.

19. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:10 AM (#3889234)

Pomeranz AND Alex White?

20. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:32 AM (#3889275)

Might be some kind of minor deal in the works for the Sox. Lars Anderson just got PH for in the 7th inning for Pawtucket.

21. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:58 AM (#3889299)

Might be some kind of minor deal in the works for the Sox. Lars Anderson just got PH for in the 7th inning for Pawtucket.

This could also be because Lars sucks.

22. Dock Ellis on Acid

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:15 AM (#3889302)

Susan Slusser is tweeting that Rich Harden to the Red Sox has a "strong chance of happening."

EDIT - Jayson Stark confirms.

23. Mattbert Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:37 AM (#3889320)

Harden deal makes a ton of sense for the Sox.

Buchholz must need company in the treatment room.

24. PJ Martinez Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:38 AM (#3889321)

Harden for Lars and PTBNL.

http://twitter.com/#!/jaysonst/status/97480727855235072

25. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:40 AM (#3889323)

A bust for the busted.

26. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:42 AM (#3889325)

I just browsed Athletics Nation and they're very happy about the idea of Lars + PTBNL for Harden, which surprises me given how much Lars's stock has fallen.

27. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:42 AM (#3889327)

Assuming the PTBNL isn't anything special I like this. Better than Miller and potential dominant starter.

28. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:45 AM (#3889328)

Assuming the PTBNL isn't anything special I like this. Better than Miller and potential dominant starter.

I posted in today's game thread that I didn't like the idea of Lars for a reliever (which got suggested) but I'm OK with Lars for Harden. This is kind of a high risk high upside move but I think the upside for the Red Sox is slightly higher than the risk. I do think Lars is better than the conventional wisdom, though.

29. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:46 AM (#3889329)

Even if Lars becomes good, he's not good now, and he has nowhere to play in Boston.

30. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:47 AM (#3889333)

Well, when I say "high risk" I don't just mean the future of Lars. I also mean the fact that Harden is another injury-prone SP.

31. Dale Sams Posted: July 31, 2011 at 01:55 AM (#3889341)

If Garza became a Sox...between that and the Pats getting Haynesworth and Ocho..man...

32. tfbg9 Posted: July 31, 2011 at 02:40 AM (#3889372)

Has the "Theo takes a flyer on a pitcher who has been injured thing" ever actually worked for more than around 75 innings? (I'd take 50 good inning from Harden here, btw)

33. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 02:51 AM (#3889378)

I really don't care how many innings they get out of Harden, as long as he's healthy enough to pitch in October.

34. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:09 AM (#3889388)

I do think Lars is better than the conventional wisdom, though.

Seconded. His numbers at Pawtucket are better than I realized and I wouldn't be shocked if he had Lyle Overbay's career. It is hard to believe he is still just 23 years old (speaking of which, how is Harden still just 29?) and should be able to get plenty of chances for Oakland.

35. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#3889390)

What are the chances Ranaudo is the PTBNL? If the PTBNL is somebody signed in the last year or injured, there is nobody else of value that would require a PTBNL designation without significant medical issues (Kalish).

36. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:14 AM (#3889395)

0 chance that the PTBNL is Ranaudo.

37. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#3889399)

So do you think it is just one of those "pick a player from a list at a later date" PTBNLs?

38. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:24 AM (#3889400)

So do you think it is just one of those "pick a player from a list at a later date" PTBNLs?

I think if it was a meaningful player it would have leaked (like the Indians/Rockies with Pomeranz)

39. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#3889408)

It might also be a case where there are even a few lists. Probably one list of players for a situation where Harden gets hurt again and doesn't really contribute much, another list for Harden being a solid contributor, and maybe another one for if he ends up a type B for draft pick compensation, etc.

40. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2011 at 04:05 AM (#3889421)

Harden basically for free? I figured that Lars would be the price of a neo-Suppan kinda guy. This is pretty great.

I think Dan's post above says it all:

Might be some kind of minor deal in the works for the Sox. Lars Anderson just got PH for in the 7th inning for Pawtucket.

41. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 05:01 AM (#3889452)

Harden deal has apparently fallen through.

So what happens now?

42. Something Other Posted: July 31, 2011 at 06:33 AM (#3889474)

@39: interesting point. Speaking of conditional trades, I'm surprised more teams don't make them, given they offer both sides some degree of insurance. Any idea what the time limit is on PTBNL?

43. Darren

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:22 PM (#3889500)

Too bad the Aviles trade didn't fall through. I cannot understand that one, especially with the idea of moving him to the outfield. He looks like this year's Mark Kotsay--a player who doesn't appear to be better than the bench guys you already have, playing a position he's never played, which will also make his bat horrible. Only this time, we got to give up a promising player for him.

As for Navarro, I don't understand how he went from glove wizard to guy who might not hack shortstop. He did seem to get huge, I guess. Every time he was hitting I thought "When did they get Wily Mo back?"

44. Darren

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:39 PM (#3889506)

Nightengale: Sox are trying to get Quentin and Thornton

45. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:44 PM (#3889508)

I have absolutely no idea why the Red Sox would have interest in Quentin. The only scenario I've got is that Crawford has a secret injury and may need surgery before the season ends. Otherwise, he makes less than no sense.

46. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 31, 2011 at 12:46 PM (#3889509)

I'm not sure how I feel about the Aviles trade, but I think this they love having a flexible defensive player who can hit lefties hard.

47. Darren

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 02:25 PM (#3889537)

I think that they actually love the idea of finding some flaw in a player and acquiring a worse player who doesn't have the flaw. See Kotsay/Casey. I still can't believe they gave Kotsay 40 postseason plate appearances in 2008.

48. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 31, 2011 at 03:38 PM (#3889582)

I have absolutely no idea why the Red Sox would have interest in Quentin.

I dunno, he'd be a pretty great RH bench bat and occasional starter, he's not that expensive and there's no commitment beyond this year. But if he costs much prospect-wise, then yeah not so much.

49. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2011 at 04:24 PM (#3889609)

I dunno, he'd be a pretty great RH bench bat and occasional starter, he's not that expensive and there's no commitment beyond this year. But if he costs much prospect-wise, then yeah not so much.

A Matt Thornton would help the pen for sure, and Quentin would be a huge upgrade over D-Mac/Drew

I say we need a #3 starter to hold things together until Buchholz comes back and possibly be the #4 starter in the playoffs (if we make it). The only prospects I wouldn't trade at the moment are Lavernway and Reddick, anybody else is fair game.

Ideally...
Buch and Jed get healthy
Lackey, Crawford, and Jenks unF!@# themselves. Then we're good.

50. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 31, 2011 at 04:59 PM (#3889638)

Ideally...
Buch and Jed get healthy
Lackey, Crawford, and Jenks unF!@# themselves. Then we're good.

And I want a unicorn. The Buchholz thing bothers me. How many specialists has he seen? And the team still cannot figure out what is wrong.

51. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 31, 2011 at 06:00 PM (#3889684)

Incidentally, I read that the Harden deal fell through when, after looking at his medicals, the Sox said they'd only give up Anderson, and remove the PTBNL. If true, doesn't that sound like a glitch that they'll probably work out before the deadline unless the PTBNL was actually the key to the deal for Beane?

52. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:05 PM (#3889764)

Heyman says Bedard has been traded.

Tim Fedorowicz has been lifted from the game in Pawtucket.

53. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3889773)

Mlbtr cites Edes saying it's just Bedard for Federowicz. That's too good to be true, right?

54. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:15 PM (#3889774)

That seems like a pretty minor price, doesn't it, even granted Bedard's injury problems?

Edit: .275/.337/.397 as a 23-year-old in AA, I have no idea what his defensive rep is.

55. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:20 PM (#3889782)

Too good to be true indeed. It's Chiang and Federowicz, with the Dodgers getting involved as a third team to swap prospects with the Ms.

That's fair. It's not a fair deal if it doesn't hurt a little.

56. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:20 PM (#3889784)

3-team deal Bedard for BOS: Federowicz, 2 other minor leaguers to LAD, Trayvon Robinson, Chih Hsien Chiang to SEA for Bedard,Fields.

57. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:20 PM (#3889785)

Three-team deal Bedard for BOS: Federowicz, 2 other minor leaguers to LAD, Trayvon Robinson, Chih Hsien Chiang to SEA for Bedard, Fields.

58. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:22 PM (#3889788)

That's a lot more expensive than Harden was going to be, so I hope they did their homework.

59. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:23 PM (#3889792)

at 04:20 PM (#3889782)
at 04:20 PM (#3889784)
at 04:20 PM (#3889785)

Heh.

60. Dock Ellis on Acid

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3889795)

Trayvon Robinson is a Red Sox. Holy cow. Bedard AND a decent prospect.

61. Dan Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3889801)

I thought Robinson was to the Mariners, and Pitcher Josh Fields was the Red Sox throw-in.

62. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:29 PM (#3889802)

Robinson is .293/.375/.563 as a 23-y.o. in AAA, but that's for Albuquerque in the PCL, anyone know what that translates as?

63. Dock Ellis on Acid

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#3889805)

Nope! Abraham is reporting/confirming that it's Bedard, Robinson and Fields. I mean, wow.

64. Dock Ellis on Acid

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 08:36 PM (#3889814)

Too good to be true. Trayvon going to Seattle, not Boston.

65. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2011 at 09:15 PM (#3889843)

I don't have a problem with the deal. Matt Thornton by all account was a good fit and would have cost probably nothing to acquire, with his really big contract.

66. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 09:48 PM (#3889873)

Via BP:

Sox: Bedard and Fields for Federowicz, Fife, Juan Rodriguez, and Chiang.
Good deal for the Sox, in that they didn't give up anything they needed.

But Federowicz, Fife, and Juan Rodriguez are all going to the Dodgers for Trayvon. ???

The Mariners probably get the best haul as far as future performance goes: Robinson and Chiang.

The head-scratcher award definitely goes to Coletti. As usual.

67. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 31, 2011 at 09:51 PM (#3889878)

Oh, and Fields sucks.

68. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 31, 2011 at 10:28 PM (#3889898)

Multiple outlets are writing the trade as Robinson being sent to Boston who then sent him to Seattle. Don't know why they are doing that.

And ESPN Boston managed to make things more confusing with this screwup.

Boston sent catcher Tim Federowicz and right-handers Juan Rodriguez and Stephen Fife to the Los Angeles Dodgers, who dealt OF Trayvon Robinson and OF Chih-Hsien Chiang to the Red Sox.

The Red Sox then sent those two prospects to Seattle.

69. The Mohole* of David Wells (* - Piehole)

Posted: July 31, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#3889926)

Multiple outlets are writing the trade as Robinson being sent to Boston who then sent him to Seattle. Don't know why they are doing that.

Perhaps because there were actually just 2 trades? We've talked about this before, so I don't think MLB allows "3-team" trades, or if it does it treats them as separate 2-team trades. So, in this instance, the Red Sox act as the clearing-house for all the moving parts. Prospects are sent on paper to the Red Sox who then send them to their final destination, keeping the parts they traded for. I'm guessing it would make it simpler if it was reported as a series of 2-team trades.

70. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2011 at 11:45 PM (#3889928)

EDIT: Everything in this post was wrong. Piehole is right, the Red Sox traded for Robinson and then dealt him to Seattle.

71. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2011 at 11:57 PM (#3889932)

Oh, and Fields sucks.

His control looks awful, but they probably wanted him because he does have a good strikeout rate, and think they can fix him?

72. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:04 AM (#3889935)

Edes on Twitter, fitting as much vague foreboding into 140 characters as possible:

Theo acknowledges high level of concern for Buchholz, has suspicions of what is wrong, but will wait for another opinion before going public

73. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:07 AM (#3889938)

What could possibly be wrong with the back that they can't figure out? A fractured bone is unlikely to be missed, so I'm guessing either ruptured disc, torn deep muscle, or ligament damage.

74. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:23 AM (#3889946)

His control looks awful, but they probably wanted him because he does have a good strikeout rate, and think they can fix him?

They have such a good track record of doing that...

What could possibly be wrong with the back that they can't figure out? A fractured bone is unlikely to be missed, so I'm guessing either ruptured disc, torn deep muscle, or ligament damage.

Well, they botched the Ellsbury diagnosis pretty badly, and his ribs were broken.

75. Mattbert Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:33 AM (#3889948)

How badly broken must Harden be for the Sox to turn him away on medical grounds? Did he have, like, multiple gunshot wounds that the A's were trying to hide?

76. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:33 AM (#3889949)

Why would we ever doubt the prowess of the Red Sox's crack medical team?

77. Hugh Jorgan Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:39 AM (#3889952)

Why would we ever doubt the prowess of the Red Sox's crack medical team?

Phew, thank god the club wasn't chasing any deadline deals that concerned players with colourful injury histories...wait, wha....

The fact that we acquired Bedard is comically brilliant. You really can't make this stuff up.

Seriously though, as stated in another post, Bedard has always been good when healthy, as the famous saying goes, what could possible go wrong?

78. The District Attorney Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:49 AM (#3889958)

what could possible go wrong?

That's the first thing that's ever gone wrong.

79. Joel W Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:54 AM (#3889988)

Who does Bedard knock out of the rotation? I honestly don't know who I'd prefer he knock out, Wake or Miller. Does Miller have a future in the pen? His need to pitch a simulated inning makes me think not. Also his start today makes me hopeful that they can ride a wave of him finding his arm slot.

80. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:43 AM (#3890076)

Having one as insurance for the other seems nice.

81. Phil Coorey. Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:48 AM (#3890093)

This doesn't look good for Clay

"Clearly, we have some concern for Clay," Boston Red Sox GM Theo Epstein said Sunday night. "It's been a couple of months now, which is longer than we expected it to be. We're still awaiting some more feedback and another opinion. I think we have a feel for what might be going on, but Clay is seeing another expert [Robert Watkins] to get his opinion and then we're all going to put our heads together this week.

"I'll refrain from answering in too much detail until we have a chance to talk to Clay and we have a chance to talk things through. … We think we're in the process of getting to the bottom of it, and we're all going to put our heads together early this week and talk about it with Clay before we discuss it publicly."

Parse those words all you want, and you won't find a silver lining. Buchholz's bad back almost certainly is worse than anyone thought it was, and the Sox can no longer persuade themselves that Buchholz is a lock to return in time to help them this season.

82. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#3890346)

Irrelevant

83. SteveF Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:19 PM (#3891391)

Buchholz explained the MRI he had taken on his back last week was the first he's had on an area other than his arm or shoulder.

Apparently the reason they didn't diagnose the stress fracture is because they never MRI'd his back. Once they did, they had their diagnosis. So really the question is whether they should have MRI'd his back sooner than they actually did and whether a more timely diagnosis would have done anything to speed his recovery.

84. Dan Posted: August 03, 2011 at 12:58 AM (#3891468)

I don't think anything they could've done would have sped up his recovery from the stress fracture. Basically rest is the only treatment, and he wasn't really pitching or throwing much. I guess the long toss sessions and bullpens he threw might've set him back a little, but I doubt it made much difference. I do think that the Red Sox need to be more willing to MRI all injuries, because missing the MRI was basically the same issue the Sox had with Ellsbury's misdiagnosis last season.

85. Textbook Editor Posted: August 05, 2011 at 05:39 AM (#3893227)

#83/#84 - As someone who's been around MRIs quite a bit the last few years, the Red Sox' reluctance to just have Buchholz (and Ellsbury) take an MRI is just really weird. Sure there's a cost to them (I suppose), but even if a full-blown MRI costs them $10,000 (and that would be a top-end guess; I would think normally they'd be about half that), that $10,000 is a fraction of what the cost is of 1 extra missed start for a high-priced starter, or the marginal cost of losing your CF for half a season while you're dithering over what's really wrong.

MRIs aren't like CT scans, in the sense that I certainly understand a reluctance to over-CT-scanning a player given the radiation doses involved in a CT scan... But MRIs don't involve radiation, and unless Buccholz and Ellsbury have/had implanted metal or some other issue that makes giving them an MRI hard, it just makes no sense to me.

I read on the crawl in the Bahamas about Buchholz's stress fracture and desperately wanted to have access to a computer to find the game chatter or ST thread where I said maybe 4 weeks ago words to the effect of "I bet it's a stress fracture." [sigh]

86. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past

Posted: August 05, 2011 at 06:05 AM (#3893231)

I was wondering if they didn't want anyone to know how seriously Clay was hurt until they'd traded for a replacement. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but it was funny not to hear the diagnosis until after the deadline.

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