Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Sox Therapy > Discussion
Sox Therapy
— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. tfbg9 Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:26 AM (#2619592)
http://thefeed.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/16/fatmiguel.jpg
   2. Dave Cyprian Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:30 AM (#2619595)
Sorry to hijack Darren, but this weekend I attended an out of town wedding, and for the first time in my life talked baseball with a legit MLB insider. I wouldn't feel comfortable revealing who, but he did talk to me about two interesting tidbits related to the Sox: Francona's contract negotiations are a little strained. Nothing serious, but the Sox are holding the line. Also, Big Papi is rather tired of acting as Manny's public interpreter (I realize lately Manny has been much more talkative). My source said that the Red Sox management themselves have occasionally asked Ortiz to communicate with Manny on their behalf.
   3. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:31 AM (#2619597)
The difference between Mench and Youkilis and Cabrera with respect to body type is that those guys have always been big and burly whereas Cabrera when he came up had a more sleek, athletic body.

That said, I don't think his weight problem is anything to be too worried about. Dunn got in shape when he felt that it was affecting his game and I am sure Miggy would do the same. The guy is one of the best hitters around and would be an amazing boost to any lineup.
   4. Darren Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:39 AM (#2619604)
The difference between Mench and Youkilis and Cabrera with respect to body type is that those guys have always been big and burly whereas Cabrera when he came up had a more sleek, athletic body.


That's a good point. Of course, Youkilis and Mench arrived in the Majors at Cabrera's age or older, so maybe we just didn't see their skinny days? [Here's Mench at the University of Delaware.]



TFBG, I saw that picture, but I felt that it was not fair because he had his cheeks puffed out. Others where I've seen him with a normal face make him look to be burly, not superfat.
   5. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:47 AM (#2619615)
Homer at the bat.
   6. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:53 AM (#2619620)
If clubs with scouts have shadowed Miggy for years and seen him personally and are concerned about his weight from that and reports of OTHER people who's seen him in person, I'm not sure how us looking at some pictures could be any judge, really. Photos can make people look, well, like ANYTHING. I haven't seen any pictures that show him looking like he's in great shape, really. But I would never take that as proof of anything.

Also, without even looking at his cheeks in that picture, his jersey looks really full. SNUG, even. He looks out of shape in that picture, but again. IT'S A PICTURE. You need to see a boxing-style weight-in shot before you'll be convinced, I'm thinking.
   7. Honkie Kong Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:00 AM (#2619632)
I don't care how fat he looks. He can sting the ball consistently. If the Red Sox cuold put up with Manny's shenanigans cos of his hitting, they can more than put up with Miggy's weight.
   8. 1k5v3L Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:06 AM (#2619637)
The Red Sox roster has some of the chunkiest chunks who ever chunked in all of baseball, and their fans are worrying about another chunky hunk?

Sox fans, let me say this: if your team can afford to acquire Miggy in a trade, you kiss his fat behind every day and twice on Sunday, and love it.
   9. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:16 AM (#2619649)
I'd love to have him.
   10. Honkie Kong Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:17 AM (#2619650)
I'd love to have him.

Feeling nervous yet abt the Hobart test?
   11. Hugh Jorgan Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:29 AM (#2619657)
Has anyone seen Fielder lately, that bloke is huge and he still rakes....
   12. Hugh Jorgan Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:31 AM (#2619661)
Feeling nervous yet abt the Hobart test?

Are you sh*tting me? There's no way the Sri Lankans chase 500+
   13. Joel W Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:37 AM (#2619664)
I think the real worry Hugh is that Cabrera plays 3rd, whereas Fielder plays 1st.
   14. Xander Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:39 AM (#2619667)
I've said before that I'd do Ellsbury, Lester, and Lars for him, so I obviously do want him. They showed a package on Cabrera the other day and he was noticeably fat, more than in any of these pictures. I'd still trade for him, because he's young enough to turn his exercise and diet habits around. But it is something he has to keep on top of for his entire career. I'm not saying anything new here though.

I did find this interesting:
Francona's contract negotiations are a little strained. Nothing serious, but the Sox are holding the line.
This strikes me as a little disappointing. Not that I would have given him a blank check, but if I'm the Sox I'd give him between 3.5 and 4 million per season, which I'm sure he wouldn't turn down. Has he not earned it? Does he not have to deal with a torturous media and rabid fan base on a daily basis? If Piniella or Baker can get that money, there's no reason he shouldn't; I don't care about their experience.
   15. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:42 AM (#2619668)
How do you know he he is only asking 3.5 or 4 million? He has two rings in 4 years. He could be looking for Torre money.
   16. Xander Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:48 AM (#2619673)
How do you know he he is only asking 3.5 or 4 million? He has two rings in 4 years. He could be looking for Torre money.
I don't know. But I don't think he is. I could be wrong, obviously.
   17. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:19 AM (#2619729)
Feeling nervous yet abt the Hobart test?


I was until Brett Lee hit with a few quickies....
   18. Miko Supports Shane's Spam Habit Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:44 AM (#2619734)
Feeling nervous yet abt the Hobart test?

Are you sh*tting me? There's no way the Sri Lankans chase 500+


Geez, it looks like English...
   19. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 19, 2007 at 09:08 AM (#2619740)
If Macgill keeps bowling like a turkey then we are screwed.

275 with 7 wickets remaining AT LEAST has made it interesting
   20. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2007 at 01:23 PM (#2619750)
Hey, does everyknow know I got here from the FROM PAGE of yahoo, where I found this? Am I late to this party?
   21. villageidiom Posted: November 19, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2619767)
Has anyone seen Fielder lately, that bloke is huge and he still rakes....
Prince Fielder is so fat, he's 3 inches taller if he lies down.
   22. zoobird Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:05 PM (#2619771)
Has anyone seen Fielder AT ANY TIME SINCE HIS EIGHTH BIRTHDAY, that bloke is huge and he still rakes....


FYP
   23. Frisco Cali Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:13 PM (#2619774)
I'd love to have him
I'd do Ellsbury, Lester, and Lars for him
I obviously do want him


It sounds like Cabrera would be quite popular with the fans in Boston.
   24. PJ Martinez Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:24 PM (#2619784)
Will the Sox let Terry have an agent this time around?

I wonder if the FO simply doesn't want Terry to get too powerful, a la (one could argue) Torre. The longer he stays, and the more championships he wins, the stronger a position he's in, obviously, and maybe they don't want to feed that, somehow?

Seems lame to me. (And by lame I mean on the part of the front office, not Francona.) Francona does a good job and his contract is not much compared to the players. I'd be surprised if he's asking for Torre money.

Does anyone even know what he's gotten paid the last few years?

Also: "I think the real worry Hugh is that Cabrera plays 3rd, whereas Fielder plays 1st."

I assume that in Boston Cabrera plays first, with Youkilis back at 3rd-- assuming Cabrera's okay with that, of course.

But I don't think the Sox will trade for him. I think they like Ellsbury and love Buchholz and worry about Miguel's weight.
   25. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:28 PM (#2619787)
I've said before that I'd do Ellsbury, Lester, and Lars for him

Are you hoping he'll ask?
   26. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:30 PM (#2619788)
I don't care how fat he looks. He can sting the ball consistently. If the Red Sox cuold put up with Manny's shenanigans cos of his hitting, they can more than put up with Miggy's weight.

This doesn't matter, IMO. As kevin says, a player that young carrying this weight makes you worry about how they deal with the fact that those extra pounds become tougher to lose as you get older. If the Sox were to acquire and extend the contract of Cabrera, they'd probably be in for seven to ten years. A weight problem has to change the projection somewhat.

That said, I'd trade for him if he was available and the price was right.

With the impending re-signing of Lowell, I'd feel better about the Cabrera acquisition in case his problem really effects his fielding in the short term.
   27. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:49 PM (#2619798)
The last fat, good player the Sox had was Vaughn and he rolled right off the table.

Between the ages of 25 and 30, Mo Vaughn played about 95% of Boston's games and absolutely raked. And he might very well have had a few more excellent seasons had he not fallen into the Angels' dugout chasing a foul ball. Worrying about Miguel Cabrera turning into Mo Vaughn seems kinda silly. Hoping that the next six years of Miguel Cabrera turn out as well as Mo Vaughn at the same ages would make more sense.
   28. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 19, 2007 at 02:56 PM (#2619802)
If the Sox were to acquire and extend the contract of Cabrera, they'd probably be in for seven to ten years.

Really? Who is Cabrera's agent? He's got two arb years left. Albert Pujols signed a seven year contract that bought out all of his arb years and four FA years. He'll be 30 in the last season of that deal. Why wouldn't Cabrera sign a five or six year contract with a team that traded for him? Would he instead risk something like $120M in guaranteed money just to get to free agency at 27 instead of 31?
   29. Valentine Posted: November 19, 2007 at 04:26 PM (#2619908)
I think the real worry Hugh is that Cabrera plays 3rd, whereas Fielder plays 1st.

As others have noted, I think you have to assess Cabrera as a 1B. Dewan has him as the worst defensive 3B over 2005-2007 (though Braun could overtake him soon). When you are among the worst at your position, you ought to start looking for a new job.

The last fat, good player the Sox had was Vaughn and he rolled right off the table.

Mo was a perennial MVP candidate through 1998 (age 30) and very good for three of the four years after that. He missed all of 2001, but was otherwise productive through the age of 34. Cecil Fielder wasn't nearly as good a hitter as Mo or Cabrera, but he maintained his production through the age of 32.

Admittedly a small sample size, but this seems to argue that we might expect Cabrera to be productive into his early 30's, then rapidly disappear from the game (unless he gets his weight under control). An MVP candidate for the next 5 or 6 years with a few more years of All-Star production after that. What's that worth to you?

Why wouldn't Cabrera sign a five or six year contract with a team that traded for him?

Because if I'm going to give up Ellsbury *and* Lester to get him, I'm going to want him locked up long term. Pattern something after the Manny deal -- 8 years guaranteed with two team options at the end. Toss in a weight and/or health clause that allows the team to escape after six if you like...
   30. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:01 PM (#2619948)
Does anyone even know what he's gotten paid the last few years?

Cot's baseball contracts lists Francona being paid:

2007 - $1.65M (8th in MLB)
2006 - $0.6M
2005 - $0.55M
2004 - $0.5M

Seems like he was underpaid at the start, and should break the $3M level now. Can't imagine the Red Sox would want him to walk away. Notwithstanding the reliabe "source" quoted, a deal wouldn't seem that hard to work out. Maybe the years would be more of a concern than the salary?
   31. Raines Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:58 PM (#2620000)
Isn't Cabrera finally doing a mad conditioning program this offseason?

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/14/miguel-cabrera-will-prepare-for-trade-by-losing-weight/

If so, doesn't that show us he's taking things a little more seriously? That said, I don't want to give up that much for him either and if Florida is looking to hit a homerun in this deal I'd be worried.
   32. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:06 PM (#2620016)
"Has there ever been a fat young player who aged well?"

What about Rick Reuschel? A pitcher, not a hitter, but he was still playing well at 40.
   33. Craig Calcaterra Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:35 PM (#2620051)
Jhonny Peralta was gettin' the fatty-fatty-2x4 treatment last offseason, and unless my eyes deceived me, he came back noticably more slender. I'd love to see that from Cabrera.
   34. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:41 PM (#2620068)
I suspect that Robby Cano was having trouble seeing his feet while in the shower between the 2006/2007 seasons. But I didn't detect any conditioning issues once the season started.
   35. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:49 PM (#2620086)
"Let's stick to position players."

In which case, the only one who jumps to my mind is Smoky Burgess.

Not sure how useful a comp a backup catcher from the 1960s is going to be, though.
   36. Gaelan Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:50 PM (#2620089)
If I'm the Red Sox I trade Ellsbury, Lester + assorted minor league filler for Cabrera in a second. That's two guys the Red Sox can replace for one guy they can't. That's the definition of a good deal.
   37. Itch Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:56 PM (#2620099)
With regards to Cabrera's weight, here is a picture of Papi at age 24:

http://www.twinscards.com/viewcardsdetail.php?cardnum=370

Big man got to be fed.
   38. scotto Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:12 PM (#2620126)
n MVP candidate for the next 5 or 6 years with a few more years of All-Star production after that. What's that worth to you?

Hey Valentine, the answer is a lot. So is the scenario where Lester and Ellsbury are traded one that finds Crisp back in CF for next season? Would you be willing to not include Lester and include a better P prospect in (Bowden, Bard?) in order to keep Ellsbury?

That said, I'd trade for him if he was available and the price was right.

I'd sleep with Salma Hayek if she were willing to and agreed to buy me dinner.
   39. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:16 PM (#2620135)
Red Sox on the verge of resigning Lowell. Current terms are 3/37.5 (though let's see if MCoA's theory about early leaks looking especially good for the Sox is true).

Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118926
   40. chris p Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:18 PM (#2620137)
scotto, i think lester is a much better prospect thane either bowden or bard.
   41. scotto Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:22 PM (#2620143)
scotto, i think lester is a much better prospect thane either bowden or bard.

I just grabbed those names from last year's BA best prospects list. Since I don't really follow the minors closely - particularly since I somehow can't rejoin the Bosox list serve due to an unresponsive server on my end - I did what I could to throw real names out there.

In any event, I wouldn't suggest Bucholz, that is for sure.
   42. Joel W Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:33 PM (#2620163)
Moot thread?
   43. chris p Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:50 PM (#2620189)
Moot thread?

youk + lester for cabrera?
   44. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:04 PM (#2620208)
Moot thread?

I hope not. Weight issue aside, the Sox need a big (preferably young) bat to couch against Manny's decline/departure and the likelihood that Papi is going nowhere but down in the years to come.
   45. Valentine Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:06 PM (#2620212)
Not moot -- just means Youkilis would need to be part of the package.

Youk + Lester for Cabrera? Of course. Would probably need to add another prospect, though, perhaps Lowrie or Masterson. And even if they insisted on Youk + Lester + Ellsbury I might not be able to resist.
   46. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:06 PM (#2620213)
I suspect that Robby Cano was having trouble seeing his feet while in the shower between the 2006/2007 seasons. But I didn't detect any conditioning issues once the season started.

And this is based on...?

Jhonny Peralta was gettin' the fatty-fatty-2x4 treatment last offseason, and unless my eyes deceived me, he came back noticably more slender. I'd love to see that from Cabrera.

Peralta was always a bit of a porker though, IIRC. The issue with Cabrera is how quickly he's been gaining weight.
   47. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:10 PM (#2620219)
I'm not sure the Marlins would have any interest in someone like Youkilis. I think they want guys with less than 1 year serive time.
   48. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:22 PM (#2620237)
And this is based on...?

Media reports at the time and open dissatisfaction from teammates.

About halfway down the page, under "Cano: Encore".
   49. nicksmith Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:25 PM (#2620241)
I don't think Youkilis is Florida's type of player. They like high risk/high reward tools guys not solid/above-average corner infielders about to turn 29.
   50. chris p Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:27 PM (#2620243)
maybe cabrera can move back to shortstop?
   51. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:27 PM (#2620244)
Media reports at the time and open dissatisfaction from teammates.

About halfway down the page, under "Cano: Encore".


Cano coming to camp "overweight" was a story from the '05-'06 offseason that they were referencing.
   52. Sean Forman Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:32 PM (#2620257)
You know that Youkilis and Crisp would take care of some perceived holes (3B and CF) on the Phillies. I don't think the Phillies would part with Ryan Howard, but they might be willing to consider it if an arm were included in the deal. The strikeout issues weigh on a lot of people here and he has been unwilling to sign an long-term deal like Utley and Rollins have.

Youk, Crisp, Lester
for
Howard and Madson (or maybe just a prospect)

Unfortunately, I don't see a lot else on the Phillies that would be a fit.

I would like Carlos Ruiz as the heir apparent behind the plate, but I don't see that happening either as the Phillies have nothing else there.

Just to push this trade that will never happen.

Here are the OBP's of that lineup
Ellsbury .394
Pedroia .380
Ortiz .445
Ramirez .388
Howard .392
Lowell .378
Drew .373
Varitek .367
Lugo .294
   53. Kyle S Posted: November 19, 2007 at 08:45 PM (#2620291)
If the over under on Ellsbury's 2008 OBP is .394, I'll take the under, please.

Respectfully, Sean, that is not a serious offer for Ryan Howard. What would you have said if the Phillies had offered Kyle Kendrick, Aaron Rowand, and Pat Burrell (with cash thrown in to make Burrell essentially free for two years) at the start of 2007 for David Ortiz AND a prospect?
   54. Sean Forman Posted: November 19, 2007 at 09:10 PM (#2620342)
Perhaps it isn't a serious offer.

Though I think every player on your list could be argued to be the less valuable player to those I mentioned.

Youkilis vs. a Free Burrell 117 OPS+ to 127 OPS+ and a lot more defensive value and two years of youth.

Crisp vs. Rowand, Crisp has a few more pretty cheap years until FA and was by many measures the best defensive CFer in the majors. Looking him up he was a little worse than I thought relative to other CF's. Rowand had a great year, but was signed for just one year and is now a free agent.

Lester vs. Kendrick. How is Lester after 2007 even close to Kendrick before 2007? Given Kendrick's SO rate, I'm not sure they are even close now.

I think that deal is a little closer than you might think. Ellsbury instead of Crisp just might do. Howard will be 28 next year. He doesn't really have any more upside like what you might get with a Miguel Cabrera.
   55. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 09:13 PM (#2620349)
Howard also won't be a free agent for another 4 years. That's something to keep in mind.
   56. Sean Forman Posted: November 19, 2007 at 09:44 PM (#2620415)
OK, scratch Howard. I'm willing to agree that I haven't offered enough. I do think Cabrera is the more valuable player going forward even given the free agency issue.
   57. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: November 20, 2007 at 01:37 AM (#2620644)
scotto, i think lester is a much better prospect thane either bowden or bard.

Well, duh. A young lefty pitcher with 150+ league average MLB innings vs. a 21 year-old who just made it to AA (and struggled) and some guy who lost the strike zone?
   58. 1k5v3L Posted: November 20, 2007 at 01:45 AM (#2620657)
and some guy who lost the strike zone?


And to think he had the best mechanics of any pitcher in the 2006 draft...
   59. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: November 20, 2007 at 01:50 AM (#2620663)
Ryan Howard to the Red Sox? Be still my heart...and plan a WS parade for the next 3 years.
   60. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: November 20, 2007 at 01:55 AM (#2620669)
Lester has the potential to be a frontline starter.

I disagree.
   61. Darren Posted: November 20, 2007 at 02:23 AM (#2620708)
Well, duh. A young lefty pitcher with 150+ league average MLB innings vs. a 21 year-old who just made it to AA (and struggled) and some guy who lost the strike zone?


Just made it to AA? At 20 he was the youngest guy in the league and had a 7.63 K/9, 3.08 BB/9, and a .84 HR/9. That was after he dominated high-A to the tune of a 1.37 ERA in the toughest pitcher's park anywhere. He's at least in the ballpark with Lester.
   62. Darren Posted: November 20, 2007 at 02:33 AM (#2620716)
I just don't see the Phillies dealing Howard while he's cheap and smashing HRs. Sean, is Howard refusing to sign a longterm deal?

I share the skepticism that others have for Cabrera losing weight. It's very hard to do otherwise there wouldn't be so many obese people around. I doubt it will affect him much as a hitter. Cecil Fielder didn't lose much as a hitter mid-30s and Vaughn didn't lose much til his early 30s (after injury). For the Red Sox purposes, it'd be fine with them if he fell apart in his 30s.
   63. Sean Forman Posted: November 20, 2007 at 03:50 AM (#2620767)
Sean, is Howard refusing to sign a longterm deal?


I believe Boras is his agent and I've heard discussion that he won't sign an extension at least not at a discount.
   64. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 20, 2007 at 04:02 AM (#2620787)
It's easy to lose weight if you know how to do it and care enough to actually do what it takes. There are so many obese people walking around because they lack either the knowledge, the resolve, or both to change. Many of them think they're really trying and can't do it; all I can say to that is that it's a shame when someone bangs his head against a brick wall again and again under the assumption that a door will open and he'll glide through.
   65. Roy Hobbs of WIFFLE Ball Posted: November 20, 2007 at 04:16 AM (#2620805)
It's easy to lose weight if you know how to do it and care enough to actually do what it takes.


For millions, losing a significant amount of weight is anything but easy. And keeping it off is arguably even harder. Like most other things in life, it's all between the ears. If you want it badly enough, you can figure out how to get it done.
   66. Darren Posted: November 20, 2007 at 04:28 AM (#2620823)
For millions, losing a significant amount of weight is anything but easy. And keeping it off is arguably even harder. Like most other things in life, it's all between the ears. If you want it badly enough, you can figure out how to get it done.


Except that most people want it very badly and very few actually do it.
   67. Squash Posted: November 20, 2007 at 04:47 AM (#2620853)
I believe Boras is his agent and I've heard discussion that he won't sign an extension at least not at a discount.

The Phillies already got their discount in the form of the years they kept him buried in the minors despite his absolute dominance down there. They ate up at least a year of two of his earning potential that way.
   68. alkeiper Posted: November 20, 2007 at 05:09 PM (#2621215)
Howard never repeated a level. There was some consternation of what the Phillies would do with Jim Thome in house, but that was solved in two months.
   69. DRR Posted: November 20, 2007 at 10:42 PM (#2621775)
On a related note, has their been an increase in the number of fat ballplayers within the last 6-7 years? I thought physical conditioning in baseball was going the OTHER way, but boy are there a lot of fat guys out there. I know athleticism and physical fitness are more secondary in baseball as opposed to other sports but I didn't know it was to the extent that you could gain an extra 30-40 pounds of not exactly muscle, and not have it affect your game that much.
   70. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 20, 2007 at 10:47 PM (#2621781)
Not to continue this stupid discussion, but if they can't get it, they don't want it badly enough.
   71. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 20, 2007 at 10:51 PM (#2621786)
Lester has the potential to be a frontline starter.

I disagree.


I agree. He has the *potential* to be. Will he be? Probably not. I'd break down his chances roughly thusly:

#1 Starter - negligible
#2 Starter - 10%
#3 Starter - 40%
#4 Starter - 65%
#5 Starter - 85%

If I had to guess, I'd say Lester becomes a 100-105 ERA+ type, with the requisite spikes for career year(s) and whatnot.
   72. OCD SS Posted: November 21, 2007 at 02:40 AM (#2622045)
Wasn't the Sox offer for Teixeira Youks, Lester, and WilyMo? If that's the case then I would expect them to be willing to move a similar package starting with Coco and Youks for an elite slugger at 1B.

On the Lester discussion:

Isn't it fairly common for lefties with really good stuff to struggle with their command and control for awhile in the majors? Randy Johnson's first few years are filled with K/BB ratios of not even 2:1. Lester will probably get better in the long run, it just might take him all of his time under arbitration control to figure it out.
   73. Touch Em All Joe Posted: November 21, 2007 at 07:27 PM (#2622797)
On a related note, has their been an increase in the number of fat ballplayers within the last 6-7 years? I thought physical conditioning in baseball was going the OTHER way, but boy are there a lot of fat guys out there. I know athleticism and physical fitness are more secondary in baseball as opposed to other sports but I didn't know it was to the extent that you could gain an extra 30-40 pounds of not exactly muscle, and not have it affect your game that much.


I think part of it is that there is much more emphasis on homeruns today than in the past. I suspect all these guys work out a lot and have muscle under that fat. They are doing a lot of powerlifting and eating a lot in the process. They get paid to hit homeruns and they don't need a sixpack to do that. Not to say the extra weight is good in the long run, but I can see why it is happening.

To notice how fat players are today, watch a game from the 80s and then take a look at players today when they have those "turn back the clock" days wearing the old unis with the elastic waist bands.
   74. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: November 23, 2007 at 05:46 PM (#2623772)


Just made it to AA? At 20 he was the youngest guy in the league and had a 7.63 K/9, 3.08 BB/9, and a .84 HR/9. That was after he dominated high-A to the tune of a 1.37 ERA in the toughest pitcher's park anywhere. He's at least in the ballpark with Lester.


I was talking about Bard not Bowden. Bowden is the guy that "just made it into AA", and Bard is "the guy who lost the strike zone"
   75. b Posted: November 24, 2007 at 06:47 PM (#2624228)
youngest guy in the league


Fernando Martinez, Reggie Corrona, Andrew McCutchen...
   76. Darren Posted: November 25, 2007 at 02:52 PM (#2624565)
Okay, maybe he was the youngest pitcher. He was young though.
   77. buddy Posted: November 26, 2007 at 12:37 AM (#2624846)
looks like manny ramirez to me.
   78. andrewberg Posted: November 26, 2007 at 12:52 AM (#2624851)
Manny Ramirez is jacked. That guy has bigger arms than some professional wrestlers. He might be aloof, but he's definitely not lazy.
   79. Dan Szymborski Posted: November 26, 2007 at 01:31 AM (#2624871)
Matt Stairs hasn't declined that much.
   80. paulkersey Posted: December 02, 2007 at 07:36 AM (#2631221)
I'm not sure how realistic it is that the Sox end with Cabrera, but they certainly can't count on Lowell to produce at the same level next year. I would guess Pedroia and Youkilis will slip at least a little in traditional stats too, but Youk will keep getting on base (as always). At the very least, Manny needs to avoid injury and perform like himself.

I hope not. Weight issue aside, the Sox need a big (preferably young) bat to couch against Manny's decline/departure and the likelihood that Papi is going nowhere but down in the years to come.


Though you clearly can't count on those guys forever, I think it bears mentioning that Papi's OPS, OBP & EqA continued a 7(!) year upward trend in '07. With him walking at the rate he was last year and being able to push off of a healthy knee, I would expect next year to be even better (until further notice). He's really not that old.

As an Idaho member of the Sox Nation, I drool everytime I hear the prospect of a big right-handed hitter playing at Fenway. Most of the rumors say Cabrera is going to LA, but here's hoping he ends up in Boston and hits 50 homers next year.
   81. Fridas Boss Posted: December 02, 2007 at 05:43 PM (#2631336)
As an Idaho member of the Sox Nation, I drool everytime I hear the prospect of a big right-handed hitter playing at Fenway.

What is it about being in Idaho causes this reaction?
   82. Darren Posted: December 07, 2007 at 02:57 AM (#2637612)
People from Idaho drool a lot. It's got something to do with potatoes.
   83. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 07, 2007 at 03:19 AM (#2637625)
I drove through Idaho over Thanksgiving and it is very ugly.
   84. paulkersey Posted: December 08, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2638856)
What is it about being in Idaho causes this reaction?


Isolation. Being associated with--if anything--potatoes and white supremacists.

I drove through Idaho over Thanksgiving and it is very ugly.


Presumably, you drove through Southern Idaho, which is a desert. The North is gorgeous, though (See Coeur d'Alene or Sandpoint).

Why all the enmity for Idaho, anyway? Or am I just being defensive?
   85. villageidiom Posted: December 11, 2007 at 08:24 PM (#2641609)
Why all the enmity for Idaho, anyway? Or am I just being defensive?

Idaho's fine. At a minimum, it's not North Dakota.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Backlasher
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.4482 seconds
41 querie(s) executed