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   1. tfbg9 Posted: June 07, 2006 at 07:54 PM (#2055364)
Bat him 9th, at least.
   2. Fridas Boss Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:14 PM (#2055391)
I like him best 2nd. Won't clog the bases should Crisp get on and won't need uber-speed to score on Ortiz/Manny hits.

Let Loretta and his much appreciate "bat handling" handle it further on down the line.
   3. Dizzypaco Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:23 PM (#2055403)
I'd lead off with Youk, bat Loretta second, and put Crisp in the six spot.
   4. Nasty Nate Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:27 PM (#2055410)
Unanswered questions of the world
-Who killed JFK?
-What’s the deal with Stonehenge?
-Whither Jimmy Hoffa?
-Why do people care about Paris Hilton?


What did he know, and when did he know it?
whyyy-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi can't i touch it?
Who's buried in grant's tomb?
What's love got to do with it?
Why did the redsox think it was better to go with a fat tub of goo and a wuss-bag with a weird goatee instead of pedro-freakin-martinez?
Who's got the brain of JFK? What's it mean to us now…yeah?
Why not us?
Why did the Mets sign Appier to that deal, but then consider his contact an albatross only one year later?
why must I sock a fella, just to live large like Rockefeller?
Why does Yankee stadium have three left field walls?
Do you know the muffin man?
Really?
   5. Mike Emeigh Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:30 PM (#2055417)
Who (yeah) - who wrote the Book of Love?

-- MWE
   6. villageidiom Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:53 PM (#2055451)
Nothing more frustrating than the ubiquitous Loretta GIDP from the two-hole.

Here are some numbers to ponder, from 2005, gleaned from THT:

Player .... GB%/ LD%/ FB%
Loretta ... 41 / 27 / 32
Youkilis .. 32 / 28 / 40

The 2006 numbers aren't much different... For GB, Loretta is at 39%, Youkilis at 33%.

Again, I don't think lineup construction makes a big difference in the results... but it is frustrating to see someone who hits a significant number of ground balls batting second in the order. Loretta has 7 GIDP already this year.

(FWIW, Varitek's 2005 GB% was 45%. Yet another player who I hate to see up with a runner on first and one out.)
   7. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 08, 2006 at 01:41 AM (#2055753)
I say Pappi should hit second. He would never ever get a pitch to hit AGAIN, but he would probably have a Bonds-esque OBP
   8. Jim Furtado Posted: June 08, 2006 at 10:45 AM (#2056064)
Youks
Crisp
Ortiz
Manny
Nixon
Lowell
Varitek
Shortstop
Loretta
   9. Jimmy P Posted: June 08, 2006 at 12:14 PM (#2056076)
For the first two months of the season Charlie Manuel had Ryan Howard batting 6th or 7th. Yes, there were nights Ryan Howard batted behind Aaron Rowand and David Bell.
   10. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 08, 2006 at 12:33 PM (#2056079)
Again, I don't think lineup construction makes a big difference in the results... but it is frustrating to see someone who hits a significant number of ground balls batting second in the order. Loretta has 7 GIDP already this year.
That basically sums it up for me, both with Loretta #2 and Youkilis' OBP dropping in the order. It probably doesn't make a huge difference. But it's frickin' freustrating because it seems so evident that Youkilis has the skills of a table-setter.
   11. schuey Posted: June 08, 2006 at 12:38 PM (#2056080)
1) Lee Harvey Oswald
2) They are 12', not 12"
3) Section 103 of Giants Stadium
4) We need someone to cheer our drab wretched lives with no new Tom Lehrer albums.
   12. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: June 08, 2006 at 01:53 PM (#2056121)
1) My favorite bizarro theory is that the bullet that killed him was from a Secret Service agent who accidentally shot him.

3) They were searching some Michigan horse farm recently for him.
   13. PJ Martinez Posted: June 08, 2006 at 03:20 PM (#2056171)
Loretta's last DP should never have happened: Coco should have stolen 2B. He's 4 for 5 this year, I believe, and Wang is slow to the plate and Posada is so-so to 2B. Not sure what he/Francona was waiting for.
   14. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: June 08, 2006 at 06:48 PM (#2056340)
-I have no idea why teams aren't running like crazy in the AL this year, you can count catchers who can controll the running game with one hand. When the Yankees play the Sox each team should have double digit SB totals.

-Varitek should bat eighth, unless they get a better SS, then he should bat 9th.

-in retrospect, it was proabably a mistake to bat CoCo leadoff, there's already too many Damon comparasins with him in center. Now if you take him out of the leadoff spot people will see him as failing, and the trade as a flop.

-Willie Harris needs more PT.
   15. Guapo Posted: June 08, 2006 at 07:26 PM (#2056374)
1) Lee Harvey Oswald
2) Aliens built it
3) According to Jon Stewart, he's living in New Hampshire with his volunteer fireman boyfriend.
4) She lives a fantasy life and people dream about doing the same.
5) To get him more RBI opportunities.
   16. Damon Rutherford Posted: June 08, 2006 at 07:31 PM (#2056377)
1) The CIA and the FBI
2) Temple foundation
3) Bermuda
4) They don't
5) Perhaps he asked to bat eighth?
   17. veer bender Posted: June 08, 2006 at 07:48 PM (#2056399)
5) Perhaps he asked to bat eighth?


Nope, more like he didn't ask to hit anywhere else. Francona is always going on about how great Youk is because he can put him anywhere in the lineup without bothering him. So, according to the manager, the other eight starters are all egotistical crybabies who will cause a problem if moved. Hey, I didn't say it. Francona did. And we're all willing to grant that he knows these guys better than we do. . .

Ok, maybe he didn't quite say that, but it's still pretty silly.
   18. veer bender Posted: June 08, 2006 at 07:50 PM (#2056404)
Now, this:
if you take him out of the leadoff spot people will see him as failing, and the trade as a flop.

might be true, insofar as the media reaction goes. But does it matter how the trade is viewed at this point?
   19. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: June 08, 2006 at 11:26 PM (#2056647)
-Willie Harris needs more PT.

Um, why?
   20. OCD SS Posted: June 08, 2006 at 11:52 PM (#2056705)
-Varitek should bat eighth, unless they get a better SS, then he should bat 9th.


Tango and mgl's book makes a pretty good case for a team's worst hitter batting 8th, so that the (in theory) good OBP leadoff guy has someone to work with (the 9th spot as a 2nd leadoff hitter). But either way Tek needs to get dropped in the order, "C" or no.
   21. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: June 09, 2006 at 01:56 AM (#2057067)
might be true, insofar as the media reaction goes. But does it matter how the trade is viewed at this point?

I meant the media, and fan, reaction to the trade.

I see what you're saying.

Crisp isn't a great player, he's got lots of potential. To his credit he seems to be unfazed and well on his way to reaching it, I just think that by having Johnny leave, and setting Crisp up as his replacment, they put him in a big position to fail.

BTW, is it now being assumed that this is Youkilis' true talent level? I keep expecting him to drop off, but he's really holding up well.
   22. Damon Rutherford Posted: June 09, 2006 at 04:32 AM (#2057372)
Nope, more like he didn't ask to hit anywhere else. Francona is always going on about how great Youk is because he can put him anywhere in the lineup without bothering him. So, according to the manager, the other eight starters are all egotistical crybabies who will cause a problem if moved. Hey, I didn't say it. Francona did. And we're all willing to grant that he knows these guys better than we do. . .

Just another reason to like Youkilis.
   23. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: June 09, 2006 at 05:24 AM (#2057392)
I've heard youk is a jerk.

On the DL is usually pretty accurate about this stuff too.
Not the first place I heard about Youkilis making a young female fan cry.

Brokeback Dugout
Which American Leaguer, not known for his stadium-side manner, may have taken to spreading lies about his own teammates out of jealousy? And it’s not the kind of jealousy you’re thinking of…

Stories have long been circulating about his bad behavior toward fans, primarily female fans. There was the time he made a girl cry outside the team bus. Then there was the time he promised tickets to a security guard in exchange for driving his car from spring training to his team’s city, then reneged on the passes, leaving a teammate to step up to the plate.

But last season, this infielder’s ####### tendencies may have made their way back to the clubhouse, when rumors began to surface about two more genetically gifted players and their allegedly too-close-for-comfort bond. Truth? Nah…just wishful thinking. He certainly does seem to hate women, and those other two guys are rather foxy…

Put it this way: That’s not premature hair loss, that’s just karma.


too bad character doesn't count like in colorado, or the Sox would have a Lowell-Gonzo-Harris-Lorreta infield
   24. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: June 09, 2006 at 06:47 AM (#2057414)
other questions of the world.....

These questions took up a whole day to ask/answer. I mean, wtf? I'm going to be one cynical old man
   25. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: June 09, 2006 at 02:06 PM (#2057535)
On the DL is usually pretty accurate about this stuff too.

Lance Buttocks never lies!

Even if that wasn't made up, why would you think it was Youkilis?
   26. Willie Mayspedester Posted: June 09, 2006 at 05:26 PM (#2057792)
1) Suicide, due to pressure from Bay of Pigs fiasco
2) Domino set from long lost group of Giants
3) Hoffa sleeps with the fishes
4) Because Francona can't spell his name and dreads writing it and starts writing in the leadoff spot of the scorecard.
   27. rico vanian Posted: June 09, 2006 at 07:56 PM (#2057980)
-Time travelers from the future.
-The little people must dance
-Dropped dead when he saw Nicholson play him in the movie
-The Gov't brainwashes people with nonsense so that they are distracted from thinking about important things like the War, Economy, etc.
- Anti Semitism
   28. jim in providence Posted: June 10, 2006 at 02:33 AM (#2058627)
I've heard youk is a jerk.

Not to say he's a McFly-hating a$$hole, but Youklis, just in physical terms, has always remined me of this guy. (Sorry Biff).
   29. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 14, 2006 at 01:56 PM (#2063469)
More unanswered questions:

-There's no one in the bullpen to back up Tavarez?
-Why walk the bases loaded with a guy who's had such control problems?
-Why, on a 1-2 count, did Varitek call for a total of zero sliders and zero sinkers, despite the fact that the slider and the sinker are Tavarez' two good pitches? Instead, it was fastball eight inches outside, good fastball in, changeup away, fastball over the heart of the plate, ballgame.
   30. Dizzypaco Posted: June 14, 2006 at 02:06 PM (#2063477)
-Why walk the bases loaded with a guy who's had such control problems?

I had the same question. I was debating this issue with a coworker who tends to be an old-fashioned, by the book kind of guy. He had two arguments:

Walking the bases loaded is often a good move, because it sets up the force at any base, and the double play.
Torii Hunter is a veteran, and Kubel is not.

The "book" says to walk a veteran with second and third, so you can face the rookie.

Needless to say, I disagree with this, but my guess is that this was the thinking behind the move.
   31. tfbg9 Posted: June 14, 2006 at 02:49 PM (#2063504)
"fastball over the heart of the plate, ballgame."

Not to nitpick, but the cheap grand slam ball looked in and kind of up. And since the TV cameras are usually elsewhere than the center field shot at the critical moments just before the pitch-maybe Onionhead shook him off on the earlier signs? Hell, we'll never know. Not to worry-we're 6-5 in Matty starts.
   32. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 14, 2006 at 02:57 PM (#2063506)
Walking the bases loaded is often a good move, because it sets up the force at any base, and the double play.
Torii Hunter is a veteran, and Kubel is not.

The "book" says to walk a veteran with second and third, so you can face the rookie.


With 2nd and 3rd, a single is likely to drive in both runs. With bases loaded, a single is likely to drive in both runs, too, but you have a better shot at a DP with force plays everywhere. It has nothing to do with "veteran vs rookie".
   33. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 15, 2006 at 08:34 AM (#2064603)
Somebody put a bounty on Tavarez or Francona. NOW
   34. PJ Martinez Posted: June 16, 2006 at 02:13 PM (#2065890)
No "Francona sees the light" thread? Did I miss it? The manager suddenly says all the things many of us want him to say about lineup construction (he'd prefer Youk's OBP at the top, Coco's speed at the bottom) and there's nary a peep?
   35. villageidiom Posted: June 16, 2006 at 07:33 PM (#2066186)
Such evidence doesn't support the larger argument. ;-)

Seriously, in the managing-the-personalities sense, he's made some good moves on this. Putting Coco back #1 gave Coco the opportunity to "demonstrate" - to Coco, to his teammates, I suppose to the media - that it won't work. Making the move during the losing streak - which really has more to do with Manny's 0-for-Minneapolis than with lineup construction - is excellent timing in that sense.

Four things to that. First, if it's for the good of the team to have Youkilis #1, then it's for the good of the team to have had been doing that for the last two weeks, right? Assuming they're all robots, yeah. That's why I want to emphasize the point that this was a good way to handle it to manage the personalities. If players become preoccupied that their role might be threatened because of things out of their control, they might not handle it well. Yeah, in an ideal world they'd all just grow up, but Francona's job is to manage what he's got. Giving Coco the chance to prove he's not Yooooooks was a good move in that sense.

Second, in the past I think I've made clear my thoughts on lineup construction, and how it matters more to have the right people in the lineup than to have them in the right order. To the extent you believe lineup construction is no big deal, messing with the lineup in order to manage the personalities isn't such a bad thing to do.

Third, I put "demonstrate" in quotes earlier because performance over a small sample really demonstrates nothing. But it's likely enough evidence for the parties mentioned above to buy in to the decision. And while Francona wouldn't have to win many of us over to the idea of Youkilis batting first, that's not his job.
   36. Mattbert Posted: June 16, 2006 at 08:42 PM (#2066247)
And while Francona wouldn't have to win many of us over to the idea of Youkilis batting first, that's not his job.
Does his job description include remembering your fourth point for you?
   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 19, 2006 at 04:42 AM (#2068235)
Maybe I'm misreading you, vi, but I do not think that your narrative fits with Francona's decision, and I think it would be a bad thing if it did.
First, if it's for the good of the team to have Youkilis #1, then it's for the good of the team to have had been doing that for the last two weeks, right? Assuming they're all robots, yeah. That's why I want to emphasize the point that this was a good way to handle it to manage the personalities. If players become preoccupied that their role might be threatened because of things out of their control, they might not handle it well. Yeah, in an ideal world they'd all just grow up, but Francona's job is to manage what he's got. Giving Coco the chance to prove he's not Yooooooks was a good move in that sense.
You seem to be suggesting that Francona set Coco up to fail. He knew that Yoooks was hte superior leadoff hitter and, in the most overt, public manner, tried to get Coco to fail so that he could move him. I think that would be a very bad way to manage most personalities - particularly those of hypercompetitive big leaguers.

Rather, I think Francona changed his mind and adjusted. I don't think he was lying when he talked about Coco as hte leadoff hitter and hte value of speed, and I don't think he purposely put players in situations to which they won't be best suited. I think that, as he did with Papelbon and Youkilis earlier in the season, he identified a problem and moved to solve it. He made a change in the lineup to improve the offense.

It's hard to say what value exactly that will have, but I think Francona's actions are best explained as a real adjustment. I've been very happy this season with Tito's ability to make changes quickly, and make the right changes before there's any useful statistical record.
   38. Xander Posted: June 19, 2006 at 04:57 AM (#2068242)
What's going on in Sox Therapy? Pretty dull of late. The GCL and NYPL kick off on Tuesday, perhaps a new minor league thread could be created in celebration.

I'm pretty sure Paps leads the entire AL in aggregate WPA.
   39. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 19, 2006 at 05:08 AM (#2068248)
I hate how Rudy Seanez got the win tonight

If the rules made any sense, Curt would get the win, Papelbon would be titled "Master of the Universe", and Rudy Seanez would wear a sign that says "I'm a Fagatini" for a week
   40. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 19, 2006 at 06:09 AM (#2068257)
I'm gettin' set to go on vacation, and the last time I left hte country, the Sox went like 30-1 or something. Hope I have that effect again.

More unanswered questions: who is Kyle Snyder, and what's he doing starting for the Red Sox?
   41. villageidiom Posted: June 19, 2006 at 01:18 PM (#2068316)
Does his job description include remembering your fourth point for you?

That's what I get for posting at work. Type a little, go to a meeting, type a little, get my staff moving in the right direction, go to another meeting. By the time I come back I just want to get the darn post out there that I don't proof it. I don't even remember what my fourth point was.

You seem to be suggesting that Francona set Coco up to fail. He knew that Yoooks was hte superior leadoff hitter and, in the most overt, public manner, tried to get Coco to fail so that he could move him. I think that would be a very bad way to manage most personalities - particularly those of hypercompetitive big leaguers.

Whoa, there's a big difference between giving someone the opportunity to succeed or fail, and trying to get him to fail. I'm saying he gave Coco the opportunity, where the numbers (and Darren, in his intro) scream that no opportunity was warranted.

I'm also suggesting that he's got a clubhouse of hypercompetitive big leaguers who'd rather hide an injury and hurt the team than to give someone else the opportunity to take their role away. If that's the personality type you have, then to manage that to achievement of team goals you need to demonstrate that it's OK to go on the DL, we'll keep your role warm for you. By putting Coco back in the leadoff spot that's what he was saying to his players.
   42. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 19, 2006 at 01:25 PM (#2068324)
you need to demonstrate that it's OK to go on the DL, we'll keep your role warm for you. By putting Coco back in the leadoff spot that's what he was saying to his players.
I totally agree with that. I think it was definitely a factor, and should be remembered.

Maybe I was misreading you above - when you said, "Putting Coco back #1 gave Coco the opportunity to "demonstrate" - to Coco, to his teammates, I suppose to the media - that it won't work," I thought you meant that Francona put Coco in a position to show to himself and to the the public that he was worse than Youkilis, which was what I disagreed with as managerial strategy.

I tend to think that Francona changed his mind based on watching hte Sox lineup with Coco at the top instead of Youks, and so he made the adjustment. I think it fits hte facts better, and I think it reflects better on Tito, even.
   43. Dave Cyprian Posted: June 19, 2006 at 02:50 PM (#2068363)
Go Synder! According to Mikael's helpful link from Canada, he might be a middle of the rotation starter. According to the Royals, he is be a candidate for DFA. This guy is going to anchor our rotation for a long time.
   44. Dave Cyprian Posted: June 19, 2006 at 03:15 PM (#2068374)
According to some naysayers at the Globe and Herald, Synder has a stamped ticket for Pawtucket circa 10:30 pm today. Not me. This guy is ready to storm into Boston throwing strikes and flashing glares. I'm ready to believe.
   45. Schilling's Sprained Ankiel Posted: June 19, 2006 at 03:44 PM (#2068395)
Maybe he'll be our Aaron Small circa 2005.
   46. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: June 19, 2006 at 04:15 PM (#2068421)
He'll be lucky to last 3 innings.

It's been interesting to note the difference in the new Lucchino-muzzled front office. In previous years in a situation like this, I can imagine Lucchino running off and blabbing about injuries and trades in the works, but the front office has been pretty quiet about what it's doing.

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