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   1. philly Posted: August 02, 2006 at 04:17 AM (#2122874)
Luckily, Mirabelli is pretty good.

Are we supposed to wait until Darren comes out the other side of the time warp before commenting?

Belli did do a pretty good job filling in in 2001 though the whole team fell apart anyway and the myth of Varitek as the true indispensible team leader took a major step forward. "Sure, losing Nomar and Pedro hurt because they're great individual talents, but once Tek went down the team was lost."

If the team craters this month he will forever be Cap'n Indispensable.

And you try getting somebody with indispensable in their name for less than 10M per.
   2. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:02 AM (#2122913)
Hear that? That's the sound of me playing the world's smallest violin.
   3. Norcan Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:03 AM (#2122915)
Is 2001 the year when Varitek's legend was created? I always thought it started with Curt Schilling myself. For I can't recall anyone overly praising Varitek's pitching calling or leadership skills before he arrived and previous to ever throwing to Varitek in a game, called him a master behind the plate. Ever since the praise thrown his way has gone too far. I never understood what made Varitek so special behind the plate, or so much more special than other catchers who are all filtered many times before reaching the majors. Mirabelli seemed just as good and sometimes better like with his comments about Lowe overusing his sinker and such. Schilling also happened to pitch one of his best games of 2004 with Mirabelli behind the plate against the Atlanta Braves.
   4. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:46 AM (#2122923)
I always though it started, like so much else, in 2003.

What a great season. I liked that team more than the 2004 one, and would prefer a 2003 WS ring to a 2004 one.
   5. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:56 AM (#2122929)
Any team that adds Curt Schilling automatically becomes less likeable. It's like a rule.
   6. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:58 AM (#2122930)
no ####.

even adding Pokey can't offset that.
   7. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:03 AM (#2122933)
I'm sure having so many players being in their walk years makes the year less enjoyable as well.
   8. OlePerfesser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 10:53 AM (#2122975)
Mirabelli is one of the best backup catchers in MLB, but he's still a backup. I.e., you don't sacrifice anything defensively, but unless we're facing a soft-tossing lefty the offense loses some starch.

And any news about Lowell's foot? Sigh.

We have to face the fact that this team's first place status owed a lot to generally good health and surprisingly good bounce-backs off the plexiglass by Schilling and Lowell. Now, as Darren has aptly summarized, we're likely above the league average for wins lost and payroll dollars wasted to the DL. And a lot of this happened at the worst possible time--right after the deadline.

So we'll see how ingeniuous Theo and the lads are over the next week. Replacement-level bats at 3B and C, a very thin bench, and a struggling back of the rotation won't keep you in the race for long.
   9. NTNgod Posted: August 02, 2006 at 10:58 AM (#2122979)
And any news about Lowell's foot?
The night would not have been complete without one more casualty, and Mike Lowell obliged by fouling a pitch off his right foot while whiffing for the third time. Alex Cora replaced Lowell at third base in the ninth, but X-rays were negative, and the injury was described as a bruise.

Globe
   10. rr Posted: August 02, 2006 at 11:21 AM (#2122980)
It's hard for me to decide who to feel more sorry for when injuries hit their repsective teams--Yankee fans or Red Sox fans.
   11. rr Posted: August 02, 2006 at 11:27 AM (#2122982)
The Red Sox will be in it until the end, even with the problems.
   12. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 11:31 AM (#2122983)
Nah, the Sox are pretty fine. Wily Mo isn't much of a downgrade from Trot - at least over a few weeks - and Varitek has been bad enough this year that we're not losing much there either.

Jason Johnson actually did a relatively good job last night, looked far better than in his first few starts. Maybe we'll get to test whether Varitek's bull-headed pitch-calling has been hurting the team.

I don't understand why the Sox called up Huckaby instead of Corky Miller. Both have MLB experience, and in that time, Miller stands out in that he didn't demonstrate that he's the worst-hitting position player of the last decade.
   13. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 11:56 AM (#2122990)
Luckily, Mirabelli is pretty good.


Huh?

Mirabelli since last July 31: .203/.287/.359 in 153 ABs... just 5HR in that time. Stud who hits bombs my ass.

Not that Varitek was setting the world on fire or anything this season, but it's hard not to notice that Sox are Lara Flynn Bolye thin behind the plate.
   14. Dr. Vaux Posted: August 02, 2006 at 12:16 PM (#2122997)
I actually think that Varitek being out helps the Red Sox. As MCoA just said, his game-calling skills are horrible; the pitching will improve, perhaps quite significantly, with Mirabelli, especially Josh Beckett. And with the way Varitek's been hitting, they won't lose much offensively, either.

Back in Varitek's first full season with the team in '98, all the pitchers seemed to get better results with Hatteberg was catching, too.
   15. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 12:19 PM (#2122998)
Mirabelli since last July 31
Yup, there's definitely a good methodological reason to cut off Mirabelli's numbers at last July.

This is a guy who was good for 310/420 or so every year from 2000-2005. He's been struggling this year, but it's pretty hard to say much about 100 scattered at-bats, even if you tack on 50 more from last season.
   16. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 12:29 PM (#2123001)
I don't understand why the Sox called up Huckaby instead of Corky Miller.

Wasn't Huckaby the guy that seperated Jeter's shoulder?
   17. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 12:48 PM (#2123010)
Yup, there's definitely a good methodological reason to cut off Mirabelli's numbers at last July.

Uhhh, because it was 12 months ago?

Going back two years Mirabelli's line is: .225/.313/.386 with 11 HR in 311 ABs (8/04)
Going back three years Mirabelli's line is: .240/.327/.447 with 21 HR in 441 ABs (8/03)
Going back four years Mirabelli's line is: .239/.314/.425 with 25 HRs in 616 ABs (8/02)
Going back five years Mirabelli's line is: .243/.322/.450 with 39 HRs in 811 ABs (8/01)

I think its fair to say that Mirabelli was pretty good.. but to say he is good now, that's a stretch - unless you're defining good as "slightly better than Bad Flash Flahrety."

He's also understandably nervous at the prospect of the Yankees facing Ken Huckaby again


If the Sox give Huckaby regular playing time against the Yanks, I'll be the happiest person on earth.
   18. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:17 PM (#2123032)
I always thought that "Huckabee" sounded like one of the noises from that awful Nell movie.
   19. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:20 PM (#2123036)
Also, some Sox game chatterer is right now looking for the keyboard shortcut for the "heart" icon. So he can do "I (heart) Huckabee!" if Ken ever does something good.
   20. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:24 PM (#2123041)
It's pretty clearly going overboard to say that the Varitek injury doesn't hurt the Sox substantially. I am also one of the people that thinks the game-calling legend is pure tripe, and I'm even coming around to the idea that he might be substantially below average at it, but even if so it just isn't that big of a deal. If Tek really was great at calling a came, wouldn't we all be arguing how that isn't really that big of a factor? So the reverse has to be true also.

It's also pretty unlikely that pitchers were doing better with Hatteberg behind the plate. This is a guy who couldn't even stick at catcher, even for the old-school moneyball beer league A's.

Overall, I just think that if the front office believes Varitek's pitch calling is significantly damaging the team they'd talk to him about it, and if he just won't listen, start calling the pitches from the bench.
   21. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:24 PM (#2123042)
McNaly, c'mon. Stop being such a fanboy. If you just looked at the first 2 months of 2004and used your same methodologies, you would have to conclude that Jeter sucked.

Offensive stats go up and down. Let's see what Mirabelli can do with consistent ABs.


Who's the fanboy floating this stupidity? Yeah, Jeter and Mirabelli are good comps, and yeah, "offensive stats go up and down." I agree w/the implication: Mirabelli's a star waiting to be born. He's not a 35 yr. old catcher who's never been a starter, he's a young promising hitter who just need consistent ABs! (And, of course, his defense is amazing and V-tek's sucks, so it's actually a boon Tek is hurt, but that goes w/o saying.)

Yeah, McNally's the fanboy.
   22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:27 PM (#2123047)
Varitek was hitting 330/410. Mirabelli just needs to be in that range, and the Sox will be fine. Given that that's what Mirabelli has done in every year this decade except 2006, I think it's a pretty good bet.

12 months is a timespan picked out in order to be dominated by Mirabelli's terrible 100 AB this year. Any sample in which 2006 constitutes the majority of the sample will make him look bad. You added 50 AB as if that made it a new insight. It didn't.
   23. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:27 PM (#2123049)
It's pretty clearly going overboard to say that the Varitek injury doesn't hurt the Sox substantially. I am also one of the people that thinks the game-calling legend is pure tripe, and I'm even coming around to the idea that he might be substantially below average at it, but even if so it just isn't that big of a deal. If Tek really was great at calling a came, wouldn't we all be arguing how that isn't really that big of a factor? So the reverse has to be true also.

It's also pretty unlikely that pitchers were doing better with Hatteberg behind the plate. This is a guy who couldn't even stick at catcher, even for the old-school moneyball beer league A's.

Overall, I just think that if the front office believes Varitek's pitch calling is significantly damaging the team they'd talk to him about it, and if he just won't listen, start calling the pitches from the bench.


Of course.
   24. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:31 PM (#2123053)
Mirabelli's a star waiting to be born. He's not a 35 yr. old catcher who's never been a starter, he's a young promising hitter who just need consistent ABs!
No, I'm just saying that a) Varitek's only had a 740 OPS, and b) Mirabelli has been good for an OPS in that range every year of his career until this one.

I think Mirabelli currently projects to hit worse than Varitek had been hitting, because Mirabelli's most recent production has been weak. I doubt the projection difference adds up to a full win over 4-6 weeks.
   25. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:31 PM (#2123054)
McNaly, c'mon. Stop being such a fanboy. If you just looked at the first 2 months of 2004and used your same methodologies, you would have to conclude that Jeter sucked.


What methodolgies are those kev? I'm just using Pinto's Day by Database and going back 12 months each time... Do you think a similar study of Jeter starting in May 2004 would show that he sucked?

I mean, I know he's no Rick Burelson or Edgar Renterria, but c'mon now.
   26. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:34 PM (#2123056)
It's pretty clearly going overboard to say that the Varitek injury doesn't hurt the Sox substantially.
How does losing a 740 OPS for 4-6 weeks constitute a "substantial loss"?

Certainly, if they need Varitek in the clubhouse for whatever specialness he brings, ok. But it's hardly "going overboard" to doubt that.

If Varitek were hitting like he did in 03-05, then, yes, definitely, this is a big loss. But he isn't. He's hitting like, well, Doug Mirabelli.
   27. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:35 PM (#2123059)
Re: Mirabelli's bad hitting this season, it might not be a sample size fluke, or the first few meters down the precipice. I'm sorry I can't remember the source, but back at the time of the Bard/Belli trade it was said that Belli was playing through a bad back. To whatever extent that's true (and when: before the trade, then til now, here to the end of the season) it's a very reasonable explanation for not hitting for crap, but still being ok defensively.
   28. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:35 PM (#2123061)
(I brought up the pitch-calling thing as a joke. Of course no one - other than Vaux - thinks the Red Sox will improve their pitching a whole bunch with Varitek out.)
   29. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:36 PM (#2123063)
Varitek was hitting 330/410. Mirabelli just needs to be in that range, and the Sox will be fine.


That's probably right, as long as Pena keeps hitting above his head, Lowell keeps hitting above his (wasn't everyone predicting his death before the season began?), and Papi destroys every late-inning reliever. Should any of those flag, however, it may have been nice to hope that perhaps Tek would come 'round and hit more to his career norms.
   30. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:39 PM (#2123066)
Matt: I was replying to Kevin in that post.
   31. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:43 PM (#2123073)
How does losing a 740 OPS for 4-6 weeks constitute a "substantial loss"?

Certainly, if they need Varitek in the clubhouse for whatever specialness he brings, ok. But it's hardly "going overboard" to doubt that.

I guess I never made clear what I thought Varitek actually contributed. No, it's not clubhouse specialness, it's hitting. In this very thread, you are using Mirabelli's past few years to argue that he isn't as bad of a hitter as the numbers he's put up this season, but apparently Varitek is actually a 740 OPS hitter now, at least for the rest of this season?

You point out that Varitek has been hitting "like, well, Doug Mirabelli." Well Doug Mirabelli has been hitting like Ken Huckabay.

I think the difference between the reasonable expected production of the two hitters, 4 out of 5 games, and the difference between Belli and Huckabay in the other 1 (probably more since Belli won't catch that much), is substantial.
   32. PJ Martinez Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:49 PM (#2123077)
Good points, veer. I think this is a substantial loss. Varitek was putting up 740, and was not a bad bet to improve that number. Mirabelli might hit 740 from here on out, but there's no guarantee of that. Sure, the 12-month thing is arbitrary, and Mirabelli's been better for a long time, but he's getting older, and that might have caught up with him.

I'm very curious to see whether any change in game-calling occurs, and whether it helps. I'm fairly dubious. I suspect Varitek's pitch-calling problems have been overblown around here.

Is picking up Javy Lopez out of the question (either b/c someone will claim him, or because he's not worth it)?
   33. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:54 PM (#2123082)
The one that ignores sample size.


Then why does Mirabelli not get significantly better as the sample gets bigger? He gets a little better, but not very much.
   34. PJ Martinez Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:55 PM (#2123084)
Elsewhere on the injury front, I would suggest that Wily Mo could very possibly be a better (albeit a very different) hitter than Trot Nixon at this point, and if he can handle RF passably, that won't necessarily be a downgrade. It sounds like Lowell's ok, though I'm still worried about a second-half drop-off at some point. It's really too bad Choi couldn't get it together-- it'd be nice to have more depth at first, to spell Lowell (and, to a lesser extent, Youkilis) occasionally. It hurts to miss Wake for this long. I'm not counting on Wells.
   35. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 01:58 PM (#2123087)
I guess I never made clear what I thought Varitek actually contributed. No, it's not clubhouse specialness, it's hitting. In this very thread, you are using Mirabelli's past few years to argue that he isn't as bad of a hitter as the numbers he's put up this season, but apparently Varitek is actually a 740 OPS hitter now, at least for the rest of this season?

You point out that Varitek has been hitting "like, well, Doug Mirabelli." Well Doug Mirabelli has been hitting like Ken Huckabay.

I think the difference between the reasonable expected production of the two hitters, 4 out of 5 games, and the difference between Belli and Huckabay in the other 1 (probably more since Belli won't catch that much), is substantial.


Again, of course. It's nonsense to compare Mirabelli's career pre-2004 to Varitek's current and below par season. I tried to make that point above.
   36. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:00 PM (#2123089)
If it was for the whole year, it would be a substantial loss. Since it's just for 1 month, it's a loss, but not a substantial one.


If it were just a month in April, I'd agree here... but when there's only two months to go, losing a month to injury is significant.


If you ask me, Tek was playing tired anyway. I think the stint on the DL will actually do him some good.


And I'm happy I wrecked my car, I needed a new one anyway. I'm happy I got fired, I was tired of that job anyway.
   37. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:05 PM (#2123094)
I do think the Yanks and Sox will go down to the wire. Both teams just lack consistent pitching, and that'll keep them close more than injuries and returns from injuries. That said, if Tek is gone, and if we get Matsui back, I do like our chances. I'm less hopeful about Sheff's return.
   38. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:06 PM (#2123095)
Judging from the numbers you posted in #18, he does get substantially better.

I don't see anything wrong with a catcher hitting .243/.322/.450.


If Mirabelli hits .243/.322/.450 for the duration of Varitek's injury, I'll buy you a sandwich.

Looking at his BB-Ref Page, Mirabelli had a very productive stretch between '03 and '04, but those look fairly out of place with the rest of his career.
   39. bunyon Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:07 PM (#2123096)
If you ask me, Tek was playing tired anyway. I think the stint on the DL will actually do him some good.

The stint on the DL may help him. However, the knee surgery he's having during that rest may counteract the benefit of rest.
   40. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:16 PM (#2123108)
I just don't think we can presume that Mirabelli is going to both (1) hit up to his career levels and (2) play 4 of 5 games. I think he is capable of either (if the back injury was real, important, and now completely gone), but not both.

I find the Beerabelly highly entertaining and a useful backup catcher, but no one could argue he's exactly the model of conditioning that would lead one to think his numbers would translate perfectly to playing every day.
   41. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:26 PM (#2123118)
I think Both Kevin and McNally are correct. I will also add, I really, really enjoyed watching Varitek bat against Mussina.

I will miss that.
   42. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:38 PM (#2123129)
Good points, veer. I think this is a substantial loss. Varitek was putting up 740, and was not a bad bet to improve that number. Mirabelli might hit 740 from here on out, but there's no guarantee of that.
Yes, I agree here. Varitek projected to improve over the last month of hte season. The loss the Red Sox get is in a projected improvement.

My point was that the Red Sox don't substantially downgrade from what they've been doing so far, which includes Tek's 740 OPS.
   43. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:49 PM (#2123140)
The loss the Red Sox get is in a projected improvement.

My point was that the Red Sox don't substantially downgrade from what they've been doing so far, which includes Tek's 740 OPS.


Yeah, ok then. But as others have pointed out, lots of players have produced at a different level from their projection. Literally all of them have, if you define different sufficiently small. I still think projections based on multiple years are a much better way of looking at what is likely to happen in the future than in year stats-to-date (especially if we roughly adjust the projections for how a player is looking in the current year, taking both methods into acount.)

Before the injury, and ignoring salary, would you have traded Varitek for Lo Duca or Greg Zaun at the deadline? Both of those guys have been better than 'tek this year.
   44. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:52 PM (#2123143)
Before the injury, and ignoring salary, would you have traded Varitek for Lo Duca or Greg Zaun at the deadline? Both of those guys have been better than 'tek this year.
Of course not. I already said that Varitek projected to improve.

The Red Sox, with Varitek's 740 OPS, have been playing .600 ball. I don't think that they project to drop way under .600 if they have to make do with a 700 OPS or so this month.
   45. Norcan Posted: August 02, 2006 at 02:54 PM (#2123144)
I don't think Varitek was a good bet to improve. He's a 34 year old catcher. The season he had last year was surprising enough for me and this could be the season he lost it. It has to happen sometime doesn't it? There is no way he is going to be a good hitter all the way up to the point he retires. Not even Manny might do that.
   46. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: August 02, 2006 at 03:09 PM (#2123166)
[grizzled sports columnist:] I think all these injuries, coming one on top of the other this way, right after the Red Sox do basically nothing at the deadline, really takes the wind out of the clubhouse sails. Losing big team leadership guys, guys who have been with the team for a long time, like Wakefield, Varitek, and Nixon really hurts and I think it's going to be tough for the team to really hold it together. This is the time when we'll see how good a manager Francona is and which players outside of Manny and Papi can really step up their games for a few weeks. [/grizzled sports columnist]
   47. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 03:11 PM (#2123172)
For career, he's .241 .328 .425. That's what Varitek is doiing this year. All he has to do is match his career norm to give the Red Sox exactly what Varitek has been giving them for 4 months.


So 34yo Varitek has fallen off his career norms, but 36yo Mirabelli is supposed to match his? With a bad back? And more exposure? If I had to guess, I'd put Mirabelli's line as a full-timer at .215/.295/.380. He's older than he was in his salad days and those days were great for a backup, but as a starter, with age and wear now setting in, he won't sniff is career norm.

That said, based on Varitek's "contributions" this season, it won't be much of a drop off.
   48. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 03:21 PM (#2123179)
The Red Sox, with Varitek's 740 OPS, have been playing .600 ball. I don't think that they project to drop way under .600 if they have to make do with a 700 OPS or so this month.


This just seems like a way of pooh-poohing any injury to a starter that was performing under expectations. Would you be arguing the opposite if a player who was greatly overperforming got injured? Gabe Kapler gets knocked out for 6 weeks, I say "Hey, it's no big deal, Kapler stunk and was taking ABs away from Wily Mo anyway." Would you respond "Kapler's been putting up an 800 OPS this season, and playing a lot since he got back, so the Red Sox are going to have a hard time maintaining their .600 winning percentage."?

This looks like a flagrant strawman argument on my part, in part because it's so silly, but aside from the part about Kapler not really being a starter, how is this not the inverse of your argument? (I would have to dig up other teams' stats for a good example; How about Michael Barret? Are the Cubs royally boned if they lose him?)

Finally, I think we need to come to agreement on the likely length and magnitude of Varitek's injury before there's going to be any agreement on what it does to expected winning percentage, playoff chances, etc. I strongly doubt that he will be back sooner than 6 weeks after arthroscopic surgery, and he's not likely to hit well for another couple weeks. He'll probably be worse than 740, even, but you know he's going to start. That's basically the rest of the season that we're getting replacement level production at catcher.
   49. villageidiom Posted: August 02, 2006 at 03:27 PM (#2123184)
I was reading this thread and was quite surprised and pleased to see everyone keep it civil. The littleidioms are in the other room losing their tempers, so it's a welcome change.

To me the particulars of this season seem similar to 1978, unfortunately. If you watch the YES Network story of the 1978 season, it starts with the Yankees losing ground while they had a bunch of injuries, then gaining ground as the Red Sox started "choking". In reality, the Sox got their own rash of injuries just as the Yankee regulars were returning, and each team's second half was similar to the other's first half, both in terms of manpower and performance.

The difference this year? Well, there are plenty, but I think the big one is that each team's roster is better equipped to withstand injuries to a handful of key components than they were 28 years ago.
   50. veer bender Posted: August 02, 2006 at 03:43 PM (#2123200)
do you think Varitek was due to rebound to a .280 .370 .480?


I could take the easy way out and say I would have expected his preseason Zips, PECOTA, or whatever for the rest of the season, but I am a little more pessimistic than that and think this season does reflect a little bit of being cooked. However, I think that cookedness, like most things in life, is not an all or nothing thing, and Varitek could have permanently declined in ability without going all the way down to a true-talent 740 OPS. How's 800 for a guess, about .260 .360 .440? Keeps the patience but loses some but not all batspeed?

Wily Mo can replace him as team enforcer until he returns


I'd like to see how that's going to work. If A-Rod takes an argument out into right field, though, I guess he'd deserve whatever he got. I suppose he could climb the wall at Yankee Stadium and pummel a few fans to even that score, but that would be, well, psychotic.
   51. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: August 02, 2006 at 03:57 PM (#2123218)
Has winning the World Series made Sox fans all giddy? I don't know how you can be so optimistic, especially when it is 10 billion degrees out. I bet you all have air conditioning too, don't you, you bastards. You're all crazy. I think the Red Sox are f****d.

Their pitching is shakey - the best pitcher is 39 years old and they're counting on a 22-year-old rookie as their #3. Their offense just took a hit and the f***ing Yankees just upgraded on both sides of the ball, and the Twins, Chicago, and Detroit look really good. The Red Sox don't play baseball in a vacuum - I think it's going to be hard for them to make the playoffs this year.
   52. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 04:03 PM (#2123226)
I also don't think the injuries are THAT big of a deal. At least with the Nixon injury, I really feel that Wily Mo is a scarier hitter at this point, and he doesn't become completely useless on one side of his split. When was the last time Trot Nixon homered at Fenway Park?

Varitek was having a down year, but, come on, it was about a 90% certainty that he'd outhit Doug Mirabelli going forward. We'll never know, but this sure doesn't help the sox. Add to that the fact that Mirabelli's at bats will now be taken by Ken Huckaby, who, unless he bulldozes and injures Derek Jeter again, will not help the Sox.

Basically, this hurts the Sox depth tremendously, but I expect very little offensive front line impact from RF, and a small but noticeable decline at catcher.
   53. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 04:05 PM (#2123228)
Also, Kevin, are you knocking Jorge's defense? He's brought the gun this season!
   54. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 04:08 PM (#2123232)
Jorge Posada 52% caugh stealing percentage!

Wow, Varitek has thrown out 12 runners out of 40? Maybe Belli will help.
   55. Norcan Posted: August 02, 2006 at 04:47 PM (#2123274)
Posada hasn't thrown out 52% of runners. His ratio of CS to SB is 52% but his caught stealing percentage is 34%. He's thrown out 21 runners out of 61 who've run against him.
   56. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:17 PM (#2123326)
If Kapler can do this: (.271/.340/.458)

then Mirabelli can do .800.


You've lost your mind. No other snark. You've just lost your mind.
   57. OlePerfesser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 05:20 PM (#2123328)
To Javy Lopez we must add the name of Mike Lieberthal as a rumored replacement for Varitek.
   58. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:02 PM (#2123386)
My bad. That's dumb. So Varitek has thrown out 12 of 52? yees.
   59. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:15 PM (#2123402)
I agree with kevin's overall assesment of Jorge in the past. But I've been watching the games this year, and for some reason Posada has been blocking the plate a lot better, and his footwork on throwing the ball has dramatically improved. I don't know exactly why that is - the catching instructor and the bullpen catcher didn't turn over; they're the same guys.
   60. bunyon Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:23 PM (#2123406)
The Red Sox don't play baseball in a vacuum

Oh, the park effects!
   61. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:25 PM (#2123407)
Yeah, Posada is much better at blocking the plate this year. Still far behind Varitek though.

I think that was the only area that Varitek was better than Posada, skills wise.
   62. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:30 PM (#2123415)
I don't know exactly why that is - the catching instructor and the bullpen catcher didn't turn over; they're the same guys.


First base coach Tony Pena might have something to do with it?
   63. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:35 PM (#2123422)
FWIW, Bill Simmons' column today is astonishingly hubristic. I mean, is he trying to jinx Ortiz or what?
   64. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:35 PM (#2123423)
I would think that the presence of a chin would embolden Varitek when blocking the plate. Jorge always has to worry about incidental contact below the mouth resulting directly in brain damage.
   65. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:37 PM (#2123428)
I would think that the presence of a chin would embolden Varitek when blocking the plate. Jorge always has to worry about incidental contact below the mouth resulting directly in brain damage.

We mock, but Georgie's wife is smokin'.
   66. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:37 PM (#2123430)
First base coach Tony Pena might have something to do with it?

I hadn't considered this.

I'm going to throw gamecalling out the window - I see no particular way to measure it, so I'll ignore it.

But I love how Fasano receives the ball - he gets lower than anyone I'vr seen since Pena retired.
   67. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:39 PM (#2123435)
We mock, but Georgie's wife is smokin'.

Only because there's that commercial featuring her pooper. Shoot other big leaguer's wives from below/behind, and we can compare apples to apples.
   68. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:51 PM (#2123452)
Only because there's that commercial featuring her pooper. Shoot other big leaguer's wives from below/behind, and we can compare apples to apples.


What commercial is this?!?
   69. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2006 at 06:57 PM (#2123458)
Only because there's that commercial featuring her pooper. Shoot other big leaguer's wives from below/behind, and we can compare apples to apples.


What the hell???
   70. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:02 PM (#2123468)
Tek also has leadership qualities. I don't ever hear Posada being mentioned as a leader on the Yankees. The only time I remember him stepping forward to get in a fight with someone at the plate, Bobby Smith beat the piss out of him.

Thats funny, I remember Posada getting into Pedro's dome so hard during the 2003 ALCS that Pedro jus'about pooped himself on the mound.
   71. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:03 PM (#2123469)
I thought everyone would know what I was talking about.

Jorge, his wife, and his kid shot a PSA for the foundation which does research into little Jorge's medical condition.

The end of the commercial has a camera at ground level watching Jorge holding his son's hand who is holding Mrs. Jorge's hand walking away. She had jeans on, and it was fairly impressive.

They showed it on YES like twice an hour a few years ago - I rarely watch commercials now.
   72. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:04 PM (#2123472)
You know, not every leader has to wear a C on his chest so the entire world will know.
   73. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:14 PM (#2123481)
We have Jeter, that's enough leadership for us thank you very much.
   74. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:16 PM (#2123483)
The only time I remember him stepping forward to get in a fight with someone at the plate, Bobby Smith beat the piss out of him.

So now fighting abilities have something to do with being a good catcher? (I don't even remember this, btw. Who is Bobby Smith?)

Game calling must be a wash at best. I do agree that Posada's hands are a bit suspect, but he never seems to have more passed balls/wild pitches than average.

Posada's arm seems to be far and away superior.
   75. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:19 PM (#2123486)
And Varitek's bat isn't even in the same ballpark over the last 5 years.
   76. b Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:21 PM (#2123491)
First base coach Tony Pena might have something to do with it?

Pena has definately been working with Posada on his throwing this year according to reports.
   77. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:42 PM (#2123511)
Hmmmm, this is an interesting take on the matter. Was this sort "pummeling him with wild punches" like the time Varitek "bodyslammed" Arod without actually, you know, knocking him down?
   78. Nasty Nate Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:48 PM (#2123513)
oh man this place is going to be testy August 18-21
   79. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:49 PM (#2123516)
No more than usual.
   80. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 07:54 PM (#2123525)
Hmmmm, this is an interesting take on the matter. Was this sort "pummeling him with wild punches" like the time Varitek "bodyslammed" Arod without actually, you know, knocking him down?


Rick Burelson would have killed either A-Rod or Posada with just one roundhouse kick to the face.
   81. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:00 PM (#2123535)
I dunno, kevin... ask Bill Lee about losing baseball fights.
   82. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:02 PM (#2123540)
Why is it that Yankees always seem to lose baseball fights?

I can't remember one they came out on top of.


Easy...the Benitez fight in, IIRC, 1996.

But the larger point, that the Yankees have been big pussies in the post-dynasty era, is partially true. I'd have beaned Ortiz years ago.
   83. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:03 PM (#2123543)
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

My goodness you are exceedingly groan enducing.

Anyway, it very well could have happened, I would just like youtube confirmation, or confirmation from another, nonkevin source.
   84. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2123549)
Paul O'Niell took down a Mariner's catcher in 1999 or 1998 or so. CAn't remember. Also, Dary Strawberry got a good suckerpunch on Armando Benitez.
   85. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:08 PM (#2123552)
I still say anyone who claims Varitek somehow "won" the A-Rod right doesn't know anything about fighting. Tek got the initial suckerslap in, but A-Rod had him in an absolutely dominant position.
   86. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:09 PM (#2123556)
Did anyone lose the Varitek/Arod fight? It was a scrum, and no one came out on top. I guess Sturtze was a little bloody.

Did anyone lose the Pedro gets shelled and throws at Garcia's head playoff game fight? Don Zimmer, but he is 100.

Here is the thing, nobody ###### with the Yankees when Straw was around, straw will hit a ############ in front of his momma. Straw was a crazy, arthur rhodes hitting mother ######. We could use a little straw.
   87. Nasty Nate Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:10 PM (#2123560)
post #106

hahahahhaaaahahhahahaaaaa

wait are you serious?
are you out of your mind?

the yankees lost all aspects of that brawl
   88. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:11 PM (#2123563)
I remember in Blue Jays/Yankees game in 98 a scrum broke out, I think it was spring training. Straw was yelling for Roger to come out of the dugout, from the top step. Begging Clemens to come out from the dugout.
   89. cseadog Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:11 PM (#2123564)
FWIW, Varitek RECEIVES the ball much better than Posada. He one of the best (if not the best )receiver in baseball. He steals a lot of strikes for his pitchers, which is one of the reasons they love him . Of course, they don't want to say this, so they praise his game-calling.
   90. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:12 PM (#2123566)
It's about time for Kevin to boast of his leg-pressing prowess. He's resorted to talking about who fights better. Here we go again.
   91. Sean McNally Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:14 PM (#2123567)
It's about time for Kevin to boast of his leg-pressing prowess.


Kevin's no Madeliene Albright.
   92. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2123572)
I guess, if it was a high school wrestling match, after the intial face shove, Arod had position. high school wrestling has very little to do with fights when 20 teammates are about jump on a pile/
   93. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2123573)
Having someone in a headlock is a dominant position. I'm not saying A-Rod "won" the fight, but once Varitek's pathetic "takedown" attempt failed, he pretty much had nothing there.
   94. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:20 PM (#2123578)

wait are you serious?
are you out of your mind?


No, I'm just correct, while you've been brainwashed by two years of media Red Sox ballwashing and Jimmy Fallon movies.

The Yankees lost the only thing that matters, which is the game. Saying Varitek somehow won that fight is beyond stupid.
   95. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:23 PM (#2123583)
There is no way he saw Taxi. Therefore, you can not use the plural, "movies"
   96. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:27 PM (#2123587)
I just realized that you absolutely cannot find a pictuer of A-rod with Tek in a headlock, but about 10,000 pages have the faceshove. Tek clearly has won the media war!
   97. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2123589)
Tek was on the verge of lifting A-Rod up off the ground and bodyslamming him.

Sorry, but I just don't see that. Tek tried to take him down, and was unable too. A-Rod could quite easily lock down on that position. Also, I'm sure that in terms of brute size and strength, A-Rod has a huge advantage. I have no idea if he's a "brawler" or not.
   98. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:29 PM (#2123591)
kevin, I noticed you are resorting to "who won a fight" instead of refuting my claim that Mr. Capital C is not in Posada's league with the bat.
   99. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:33 PM (#2123593)
Dude, everyone knows the "my catcher can beat up your catcher" is the hail mary of debates.
   100. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 02, 2006 at 08:38 PM (#2123597)
Posada has a better goatee.
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