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   1. Jose is El Absurd Bronson Y Pollo Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:33 PM (#3996464)
I'm trying not to get too worked up until spring training. There is so much left to be done that until this team is pulled together I don't think it's especially fair to leap to judgments. The media is running with a lot of stuff right now but this is the group that ignored/missed the clubhouse issues all year long (assuming such issues were as bad as they were made out in the aftermath) so I think relying on them for anything beyond very rudimentary information is risky.

You also wrote about front office harmony but I wonder how accurate that is. I think it's fair to say that theo and Larry weren't getting along and while I have no doubt that Henry likes Theo he has never really pushed Luchhino out suggesting to me tha when the rubber meets the road Larry is doing what Henry wants.

I do think there are a lot of assumptions being made about who was doing what that are erroneous. I think the conventional wisdom that "good moves are Theos and bad moves are Larrys" is a bit simplistic.

Not sure I actually have a point here or disagree with anything you wrote, just some random thoughts.
   2. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:57 PM (#3996492)
I'm trying not to get too worked up until spring training.
I'm not really worked up at all, for what it's worth. I think it's interesting to see how the team arranges their decision-making structure, and I think we have some evidence here of ownership pulling rank on Cherington (and, I mean, they have rank). It's not at all clear to me whether this is a good or bad thing in general - in this case, I think hiring Valentine would probably be a good thing.

I do reserve the right to get worked up before spring training, though. If the Sox don't make good acquisitions this offseason, I will not be happy. So far, there is no evidence one way or the other - letting Papelbon go is hardly indefensible - and I'm remaining confident in Cherington and ownership.
   3. The District Attorney Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:21 PM (#3996524)
Mackanin seems to be the only person explicitly eliminated... I wonder why. Everyone seems to have been impressed by his work in his interim jobs. Based on what we've seen of the guys when they actually manage, it seems like he's done better than Lamont or Sveum (the latter of whom certainly could have been kept on to manage the Brewers in 2009, but was not.) I'm certainly not doubting that there's a lot more to this process than eyeballing the candidates' records and rosters managed on B-R.com, but I wonder what specifically they didn't like about Mackanin.

I also wonder why they didn't interview Dave Martinez, who was being talked about as the favorite before they started interviewing people.
   4. Guapo Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:25 PM (#3996528)
I think Bobby Valentine’s managerial resume is very impressive


Really?

I always think of Valentine's resume as pretty unimpressive. 15 years, no first place finishes, two Wild Cards. It surprises me that his name comes up with such regularity for openings.

Link
   5. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:46 PM (#3996555)
Based on what we've seen of the guys when they actually manage, it seems like he's done better than Lamont or Sveum


Sveum? He managed for 12 games, taking over a Brewers team in a tailspin, going 7-5 and passing the freefalling Mets for a wild card. It's obviously not enough to make any firm assessments of his capabilities, but it's hard to find a lot of fault there.

Really?

I always think of Valentine's resume as pretty unimpressive. 15 years, no first place finishes, two Wild Cards. It surprises me that his name comes up with such regularity for openings.


Agreed.
   6. The District Attorney Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:53 PM (#3996566)
Sveum? He managed for 12 games, taking over a Brewers team in a tailspin, going 7-5 and passing the freefalling Mets for a wild card. It's obviously not enough to make any firm assessments of his capabilities, but it's hard to find a lot of fault there.
I just wonder why they didn't keep him. When the team as you say had just made the playoffs, and when the alternative apparently was Ken Macha, they certainly could have.
   7. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#3996585)
I just wonder why they didn't keep him. When the team as you say had just made the playoffs, and when the alternative apparently was Ken Macha, they certainly could have.


It is peculiar, since they were happy enough to keep him on staff. But barring any additional information that exists, I'm not going to read anything into it.
   8. Mattbert Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#3996646)
Hey, when you have the opportunity to hire Ken Macha...
   9. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: November 18, 2011 at 06:16 PM (#3996658)
I think this is just Henry wanting to go after the star SABRy-type guy. He originally wanted Beane as the GM, he hired James, and now he's interested in Valentine, who was one of the leading statsy managers of his time.

How good are Valentine's SABRy qualifications, though? I wasn't really aware of him when he was managing, but I look at his Mets teams, and I see Rey Ordonez of the 59 OPS+ as the starting SS. What happened there?
   10. Darren Posted: November 19, 2011 at 02:40 AM (#3996969)
Nice post. As I said in the other one, I think it's a good sign they're considering other types of managers. I also said I thought that Valentine's considered a clown, though you and RB made a good argument that that may be wrong. I just get the impression that everyone thinks of him as that guy who wore the fake 'stache and rememeber mainly the end of his tenure in NY. Plus, there's that voice...

How good are Valentine's SABRy qualifications, though? I wasn't really aware of him when he was managing, but I look at his Mets teams, and I see Rey Ordonez of the 59 OPS+ as the starting SS. What happened there?


I was always impressed with him as he seemed to win a bunch of games with a bunch of seeming nobodies. Granted, Ordonez couldn't hit, but I doubt the Mets had much in the way of advanced defensive stats at that time, and Ordonez had a good rep on defense.
   11. tfbg9 Posted: November 19, 2011 at 02:52 AM (#3996974)
Is it just me or is one of the risks you take with Bobby V., and in particular in a sports market like Boston is the "this thing sure got ugly fast" syndrome? He's no shrinking violet.

I can live with a Valentine managerial hire. He's good theater anyway.
   12. booond Posted: November 19, 2011 at 11:39 PM (#3997530)
I always think of Valentine's resume as pretty unimpressive. 15 years, no first place finishes, two Wild Cards. It surprises me that his name comes up with such regularity for openings.


Not that this means anything but in his full seasons he was 23 games total above his pythag.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: November 29, 2011 at 03:24 PM (#4002828)
Sox Therappers, remeber all the talk over the years about how Theo loved complicated multi-team trades? And that he strove toward some masterpiece of complexity? Well, let's imagine that he is actually close to his goal, and that explains the delay in Cubs compensation and why he has disappeared like Doc Brown before he finished the DeLorean. Maybe Theo finally cooked up a trade that involved 5 teams swapping players, managers, GM's, and verily his own self!!

Andrew Friedman and Sam Fuld to the Astros
Jeff Samardzija and Jed Lowrie to the Devil Rays
John Farrell and Wandy Rodriguez to the Red Sox
Josh Reddick and DJ LeMahieu to the Blue Jays
Theo Epstein and Doug Mintkeiwic?h to the Cubs
   14. Jose is El Absurd Bronson Y Pollo Posted: December 02, 2011 at 03:37 PM (#4005077)
For those with season tickets the Sox have pushed back the "early bird" deadline from the previously announced December 15th to January 3rd.

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