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Friday, November 18, 2011

What going on down Jersey St?

In the past two days, things seem to have gotten a bit weird.  The managerial search had been progressing in its normal, boring way.  Cherington had interviewed normal, boring candidates like Dale Sveum and Pete Mackanin and Torey Lovullo.  They were looking for a Francona clone, a good company man who will carry out the directives of management, handle the media well, and keep the players happy. 

Now it’s reported that Bobby Valentine is a leading candidate.  There are conflicting reports as to whether Valentine has met only with ownership, or whether he also met with Cherington and the meeting went unreported for some reason.  It’s possible to square the interest in Valentine with a narrative of front office cohesion on Jersey St - as an aside, I see no reason to honor the malignant Tom Yawkey with a street name, let alone one synecdochal for the Red Sox.  Anyway, it’s possible that Valentine had been on the list from the beginning, but it’s unlikely that could have been kept from the press by the leaky Sox front office, and it’s odd that there would be one Valentine on the original list along with a half-dozen Francona clones.  None of the other managerial candidates who’ve been reported resemble Valentine in resume, profile, or in expected demands of authority.  The simplest explanation does appear to be that Cherington was overruled. 

It’s not exactly world-historical news that a young manager was overruled by his bosses.  And I don’t mean to suggest that this is necessarily bad in baseball terms - the last two years of front office harmony haven’t exactly produced results in which anyone takes pride.  Hell, I think Bobby Valentine’s managerial resume is very impressive, and I’m excited about the possibility of his taking the reins in Fenway.  I do think it’s fair to suggest that the front office harmony of the last several years was an aberration, and we’re heading back to a more complex and messy arrangement of power between management and ownership.  We can expect more drama, more leaks, more silliness. 

I originally had a way to tie this post to Craig Shipley’s dismissal, but I seem to have forgotten what it was.  Anyway, the other front office news is that Craig Shipley, who has overseen the Sox underperforming international scouting and development system for the last several years, is going to be fired.  Theo said in the post-collapse press conference that he wanted to run a full review of the entire organization to figure out what needed to be fixed.  This seems like the sort of move that would arise from a full review – Shipley’s division has underperformed, so they’re looking for someone new.  This dismissal doesn’t really fit with the “complex arrangement of power” narrative of the first three paragraphs, though.  Shipley’s dismissal seems like exactly the sort of action we’d expect the new GM to take. 

Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 18, 2011 at 02:33 PM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:33 PM (#3996464)
I'm trying not to get too worked up until spring training. There is so much left to be done that until this team is pulled together I don't think it's especially fair to leap to judgments. The media is running with a lot of stuff right now but this is the group that ignored/missed the clubhouse issues all year long (assuming such issues were as bad as they were made out in the aftermath) so I think relying on them for anything beyond very rudimentary information is risky.

You also wrote about front office harmony but I wonder how accurate that is. I think it's fair to say that theo and Larry weren't getting along and while I have no doubt that Henry likes Theo he has never really pushed Luchhino out suggesting to me tha when the rubber meets the road Larry is doing what Henry wants.

I do think there are a lot of assumptions being made about who was doing what that are erroneous. I think the conventional wisdom that "good moves are Theos and bad moves are Larrys" is a bit simplistic.

Not sure I actually have a point here or disagree with anything you wrote, just some random thoughts.
   2. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:57 PM (#3996492)
I'm trying not to get too worked up until spring training.
I'm not really worked up at all, for what it's worth. I think it's interesting to see how the team arranges their decision-making structure, and I think we have some evidence here of ownership pulling rank on Cherington (and, I mean, they have rank). It's not at all clear to me whether this is a good or bad thing in general - in this case, I think hiring Valentine would probably be a good thing.

I do reserve the right to get worked up before spring training, though. If the Sox don't make good acquisitions this offseason, I will not be happy. So far, there is no evidence one way or the other - letting Papelbon go is hardly indefensible - and I'm remaining confident in Cherington and ownership.
   3. The District Attorney Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:21 PM (#3996524)
Mackanin seems to be the only person explicitly eliminated... I wonder why. Everyone seems to have been impressed by his work in his interim jobs. Based on what we've seen of the guys when they actually manage, it seems like he's done better than Lamont or Sveum (the latter of whom certainly could have been kept on to manage the Brewers in 2009, but was not.) I'm certainly not doubting that there's a lot more to this process than eyeballing the candidates' records and rosters managed on B-R.com, but I wonder what specifically they didn't like about Mackanin.

I also wonder why they didn't interview Dave Martinez, who was being talked about as the favorite before they started interviewing people.
   4. Guapo Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:25 PM (#3996528)
I think Bobby Valentine’s managerial resume is very impressive


Really?

I always think of Valentine's resume as pretty unimpressive. 15 years, no first place finishes, two Wild Cards. It surprises me that his name comes up with such regularity for openings.

Link
   5. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:46 PM (#3996555)
Based on what we've seen of the guys when they actually manage, it seems like he's done better than Lamont or Sveum


Sveum? He managed for 12 games, taking over a Brewers team in a tailspin, going 7-5 and passing the freefalling Mets for a wild card. It's obviously not enough to make any firm assessments of his capabilities, but it's hard to find a lot of fault there.

Really?

I always think of Valentine's resume as pretty unimpressive. 15 years, no first place finishes, two Wild Cards. It surprises me that his name comes up with such regularity for openings.


Agreed.
   6. The District Attorney Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:53 PM (#3996566)
Sveum? He managed for 12 games, taking over a Brewers team in a tailspin, going 7-5 and passing the freefalling Mets for a wild card. It's obviously not enough to make any firm assessments of his capabilities, but it's hard to find a lot of fault there.
I just wonder why they didn't keep him. When the team as you say had just made the playoffs, and when the alternative apparently was Ken Macha, they certainly could have.
   7. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#3996585)
I just wonder why they didn't keep him. When the team as you say had just made the playoffs, and when the alternative apparently was Ken Macha, they certainly could have.


It is peculiar, since they were happy enough to keep him on staff. But barring any additional information that exists, I'm not going to read anything into it.
   8. Mattbert Posted: November 18, 2011 at 06:58 PM (#3996646)
Hey, when you have the opportunity to hire Ken Macha...
   9. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: November 18, 2011 at 07:16 PM (#3996658)
I think this is just Henry wanting to go after the star SABRy-type guy. He originally wanted Beane as the GM, he hired James, and now he's interested in Valentine, who was one of the leading statsy managers of his time.

How good are Valentine's SABRy qualifications, though? I wasn't really aware of him when he was managing, but I look at his Mets teams, and I see Rey Ordonez of the 59 OPS+ as the starting SS. What happened there?
   10. Darren Posted: November 19, 2011 at 03:40 AM (#3996969)
Nice post. As I said in the other one, I think it's a good sign they're considering other types of managers. I also said I thought that Valentine's considered a clown, though you and RB made a good argument that that may be wrong. I just get the impression that everyone thinks of him as that guy who wore the fake 'stache and rememeber mainly the end of his tenure in NY. Plus, there's that voice...

How good are Valentine's SABRy qualifications, though? I wasn't really aware of him when he was managing, but I look at his Mets teams, and I see Rey Ordonez of the 59 OPS+ as the starting SS. What happened there?


I was always impressed with him as he seemed to win a bunch of games with a bunch of seeming nobodies. Granted, Ordonez couldn't hit, but I doubt the Mets had much in the way of advanced defensive stats at that time, and Ordonez had a good rep on defense.
   11. tfbg9 Posted: November 19, 2011 at 03:52 AM (#3996974)
Is it just me or is one of the risks you take with Bobby V., and in particular in a sports market like Boston is the "this thing sure got ugly fast" syndrome? He's no shrinking violet.

I can live with a Valentine managerial hire. He's good theater anyway.
   12. booond Posted: November 20, 2011 at 12:39 AM (#3997530)
I always think of Valentine's resume as pretty unimpressive. 15 years, no first place finishes, two Wild Cards. It surprises me that his name comes up with such regularity for openings.


Not that this means anything but in his full seasons he was 23 games total above his pythag.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: November 29, 2011 at 04:24 PM (#4002828)
Sox Therappers, remeber all the talk over the years about how Theo loved complicated multi-team trades? And that he strove toward some masterpiece of complexity? Well, let's imagine that he is actually close to his goal, and that explains the delay in Cubs compensation and why he has disappeared like Doc Brown before he finished the DeLorean. Maybe Theo finally cooked up a trade that involved 5 teams swapping players, managers, GM's, and verily his own self!!

Andrew Friedman and Sam Fuld to the Astros
Jeff Samardzija and Jed Lowrie to the Devil Rays
John Farrell and Wandy Rodriguez to the Red Sox
Josh Reddick and DJ LeMahieu to the Blue Jays
Theo Epstein and Doug Mintkeiwic?h to the Cubs
   14. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: December 02, 2011 at 04:37 PM (#4005077)
For those with season tickets the Sox have pushed back the "early bird" deadline from the previously announced December 15th to January 3rd.

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