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Thursday, August 24, 2006

Defense over the last Twenty Years - Part Three, NL OF

Top Career Defensive Performances – National League Outfield

After reviewing the infield defense of the National League, I thought I had a good handle on how the outfield would turn out.  I didn’t.  The oddest thing is how few players really spent a career in centerfield in the National League.  Accumulating 5000 innings was rare.  I was also surprised at how much closer in talent the centerfielders were.  Please note, these ratings do not include OF assists.

Center Field

The favorite centerfielder of the last decade is Andruw Jones.  In Bill James’ Win Shares, he was anointing Jones as the greatest defensive CF of all time.  I have been a naysayer most of Andruw’s career with respect to his god-like qualities.  So does Andruw come up as the best CF over the last 20 years?  If I had written a book in 2003, he would have.  His decline the last three seasons has been significant.  He has fallen from the highest mark to the middle of the pack.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1996	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	12	71.0	0	0
1997	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	57	415.3	3	10
1998	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	159	1373.7	15	15
1999	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	162	1447.3	11	10
2000	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	161	1430.3	1	1
2001	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	161	1435.3	4	4
2002	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	154	1357.0	3	3
2003	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	155	1329.0	-9	-9
2004	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	154	1347.0	-8	-8
2005	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	159	1366.3	-1	-1
								
10 yrs	CF	Andruw Jones	Atl	NL	1334	11572	20	2

Andruw still has been a good centerfielder, and he was outstanding his first two seasons.  He also had a ton of assists those first few years.  He also was on a path to be one of the greatest ever, but a few sandwiches seem to have gotten in the way.

So who has saved the most runs over in his playing time?  It was a pretty close race but Steve Finley won.  For a count stat, it helps to play a really long time, and to not be terrible at what you are doing.  Finley hasn’t been great at what he does, and has a low seasonal rate, but he’s been there a long time.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1991	CF	Steve Finley	Hou	NL	124	948.0	8	11
1992	CF	Steve Finley	Hou	NL	160	1352.3	-2	-2
1993	CF	Steve Finley	Hou	NL	140	1167.0	2	3
1994	CF	Steve Finley	Hou	NL	92	792.7	4	6
1996	CF	Steve Finley	SD	NL	160	1417.7	22	21
1997	CF	Steve Finley	SD	NL	140	1179.0	5	6
1998	CF	Steve Finley	SD	NL	157	1335.3	11	11
1999	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	155	1348.7	1	1
2000	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	148	1284.7	-2	-2
2001	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	131	1111.7	-5	-6
2002	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	144	1171.3	5	5
2003	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	140	1168.3	-9	-10
2004	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	103	896.3	-2	-2
2004	CF	Steve Finley	LA	NL	55	485.7	1	2
								
13 yrs	CF	Steve Finley		NL	1849	15659	39	3

Finley did have a great 1996, but is not a great centerfielder.  He’s been solid, and above average work for 13 years is very valuable.  Notice how Finley is just shy of 40 runs above average.  I think it can be argued that centerfield has the closest talent level, and teams risk less defensively there than just about anywhere.

Coming in second was everyone’s favorite bunter, Brett Butler.  Butler was known for using a glove that was larger than the regulations permitted.  I assume that is like a hockey goalie’s pads and everyone sneaks an extra inch out there, but when the diminutive Butler waggled that leather peach basket around, you knew he had a one pushing the limits.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1988	CF	Brett Butler	SF	NL	156	1326.3	5	5
1989	CF	Brett Butler	SF	NL	152	1293.3	4	4
1990	CF	Brett Butler	SF	NL	159	1391.3	6	5
1991	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	161	1409.0	10	10
1992	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	155	1318.3	1	1
1993	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	155	1382.7	13	13
1994	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	111	944.7	-5	-7
1995	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	39	332.0	-1	-2
1996	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	34	279.0	6	28
1997	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	49	408.3	-4	-14
								
10 yrs	CF	Brett Butler	LA	NL	1171	10085	36	5

The best rate (RS/150) for centerfielders belongs to a young player that hasn’t hit his decline phase yet.  He’s young, fast, and frustrating at the plate.  I don’t now if he’ll be the next Lou Brock, but Corey Patterson has been a very good centerfielder in the National League.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
2000	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	11	86.7	0	5
2001	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	45	245.7	4	24
2002	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	147	1217.3	3	3
2003	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	82	710.3	1	2
2004	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	157	1368.7	16	15
2005	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	122	987.7	6	9
								
6 yrs	CF	Corey Patterson	ChC	NL	564	4616	30	9


Patterson has the highest rate, as I said for 4000 innings.  At lower inning tiers, Dodger John Shelby (13 RS/150) and Ruben Rivera (15 RS/150) have great rates.

Left Field

In left field, Barry Bonds has long had the reputation of being a good fielder, with a weak but accurate arm.  Now that we have nearly his entire career evaluated, we can see if that was all bluster, or if he really is a good outfielder.

Bonds was about average, maybe slightly above, to start his career, but struggled terribly when he moved to Candlestick.  I haven’t seen much park effect for most fields, but when San Francisco moved from Candlestick to PacBell, Bonds’ defense improved significantly.  It screams “Park Factor!”

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1987	LF	Barry Bonds	Pit	NL	100	763.3	8	15
1988	LF	Barry Bonds	Pit	NL	135	1134.0	0	0
1989	LF	Barry Bonds	Pit	NL	156	1337.0	3	3
1990	LF	Barry Bonds	Pit	NL	149	1275.0	2	2
1991	LF	Barry Bonds	Pit	NL	150	1296.7	2	2
1992	LF	Barry Bonds	Pit	NL	139	1241.7	-8	-9
1993	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	157	1370.0	-7	-7
1994	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	112	959.3	-3	-5
1995	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	143	1257.0	-4	-5
1996	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	149	1273.7	-9	-10
1997	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	159	1372.3	-2	-2
1998	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	155	1337.3	-9	-9
1999	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	96	794.3	-3	-6
2000	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	141	1152.7	7	9
2001	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	143	1232.7	9	9
2002	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	135	1115.0	6	8
2003	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	123	1044.0	2	3
2004	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	133	1131.7	-3	-4
2005	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	13	95.0	2	22
								
19 yrs	LF	Barry Bonds	SF	NL	2488	21183	-8	-1

So Bonds is about average over his career.  In discussions of the greatest left fielder of all time, Bonds is generally given a huge edge for defense over Ted Williams, and I suspect that is not accurate.  I suspect Williams wouldn’t have been worse than the worst of this era, so we probably aren’t talking about 200 runs on defense, but more like 50 runs on defense, and very possibly none.

So Bonds was average over a very long career – who as good?  The top three were well ahead of the pack, and the top LF doubled up the fourth place fielder.

Ron Gant came to the major leagues as a second baseman, and he was awful (-22 RSpt).  He went back to the minors to play outfield, and returned to the majors as a left fielder, and played very well.  He was someone who didn’t necessarily look good out there, and because he could hit, seemed to be regarded as a weak defender, but the data indicates otherwise.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1989	LF	Ron Gant	Atl	NL	2	7.0	0	34
1990	LF	Ron Gant	Atl	NL	38	290.7	-5	-25
1992	LF	Ron Gant	Atl	NL	138	1097.7	5	6
1993	LF	Ron Gant	Atl	NL	155	1384.3	7	6
1995	LF	Ron Gant	Cin	NL	117	930.3	8	11
1996	LF	Ron Gant	StL	NL	116	992.7	5	6
1997	LF	Ron Gant	StL	NL	128	1084.3	10	13
1998	LF	Ron Gant	StL	NL	104	819.0	7	12
1999	LF	Ron Gant	Phi	NL	133	1119.7	15	18
2000	LF	Ron Gant	Phi	NL	84	726.3	3	5
2001	LF	Ron Gant	Col	NL	51	388.0	-6	-20
2002	LF	Ron Gant	SD	NL	78	598.7	4	9
								
12 yrs	LF	Ron Gant	SD	NL	1144	9438.7	52	7

Luis Gonzalez has been a really good player.  His 2001 was richly rewarded.  He has solid offense and defense numbers and it is no wonder why he’s a fan favorite.  His 1998 season with Detroit was a –2 RSpt, but still the second best career over the last 20 years.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1991	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Hou	NL	133	1085.7	5	6
1992	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Hou	NL	111	859.3	8	12
1993	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Hou	NL	149	1248.0	3	3
1994	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Hou	NL	111	928.7	-2	-3
1995	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Hou	NL	55	464.0	4	11
1995	LF	Luis Gonzalez	ChC	NL	74	602.0	-1	-3
1996	LF	Luis Gonzalez	ChC	NL	139	1124.0	5	6
1997	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Hou	NL	146	1258.7	-2	-2
1999	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	148	1322.7	8	8
2000	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	162	1431.7	9	9
2001	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	161	1417.7	5	5
2002	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	146	1246.3	10	11
2003	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	154	1359.3	4	4
2004	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	104	900.3	-3	-5
2005	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	152	1318.3	7	7
								
15 yrs	LF	Luis Gonzalez	Ari	NL	1945	16566.7	59	5


The top left fielder wouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that routinely studies defense.  Jenkins is a very good fielder.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1998	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	81	593.7	6	13
1999	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	128	1012.3	11	14
2000	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	131	1126.3	18	22
2001	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	104	897.3	9	14
2002	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	66	570.3	5	12
2003	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	123	1088.3	6	8
2004	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	156	1362.0	10	10
2005	RF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	144	1241.3	7	7
								
7 yrs	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	789	6650.3	65	13
8 yrs	LF/RF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	933	7891.7	72	12

Jenkins only has 8 years in and has a large advantage over his peers.  In 2005, with the acquisition of Carlos Lee, Jenkins shifted to RF.  Jenkins hasn’t missed a beat.  His career will be underrated in the long run because he plays in Milwaukee, and because he adds tremendous value on defense.

Jenkins also has the highest RS/150.  He hasn’t hit his decline phase, but to already have posted that many runs above average is just incredible.

Right Field

If I asked you to name the best defensive right fielder in the NL over the last 20 years, I think you could guess.  It is Tony Gwynn.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1987	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	157	1330.7	16	17
1988	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	102	891.3	14	21
1989	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	73	633.0	-3	-6
1990	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	141	1266.7	15	16
1991	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	134	1176.7	9	10
1992	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	127	1128.7	13	15
1993	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	121	1012.3	8	10
1994	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	105	900.7	1	1
1995	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	133	1127.7	8	9
1996	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	111	960.0	15	21
1997	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	143	1203.3	1	1
1998	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	116	902.7	-7	-10
1999	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	104	806.3	-2	-3
2000	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	26	202.7	2	13
2001	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	17	103.0	-1	-12
								
15 yrs	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	1610	13645.7	90	9

Gwynn was a great rightfielder and spent half of 1989 in center, where he played about average.
There’s very little more to say about a great player that most knew was a good defender.  This data simply supports common conception.  Gwynn’s RS/150 is near the top as well, and over that career length is very impressive. 

Coming up behind Gwynn for regulars are:

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
TOT	RF	Brian Jordan	Atl	NL	900	7447.3	50	9
TOT	RF	Raul Mondesi	Atl	NL	862	7424.7	45	8

Mondesi was a big favorite of the Defensive Average work.  This data agrees.

Of interest (to me) in the right fielders is two younger players that have set high paces of RS/150. 

JD Drew

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1998	RF	J.D. Drew	StL	NL	5	37.0	0	4
2000	RF	J.D. Drew	StL	NL	98	697.3	8	16
2001	RF	J.D. Drew	StL	NL	97	780.3	7	12
2002	RF	J.D. Drew	StL	NL	119	932.7	6	9
2003	RF	J.D. Drew	StL	NL	53	391.0	-3	-12
2004	RF	J.D. Drew	Atl	NL	138	1193.0	8	9
2005	RF	J.D. Drew	LA	NL	44	382.0	6	22
								
7 yrs	RF	J.D. Drew	LA	NL	554	4413.3	32	10

Drew has missed too much time – he’s already 30 to think about getting too much better.  His performance to date has been very strong, and he has 1700 innings at the other two positions that he’s performed above average.  He’s underrated, in that I don’t know of anyone that thinks of Drew when considering good defensive right fielders.

Austin Kearns

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
2002	RF	Austin Kearns	Cin	NL	95	775.7	16	28
2003	RF	Austin Kearns	Cin	NL	51	367.7	4	14
2004	RF	Austin Kearns	Cin	NL	60	508.3	7	19
2005	RF	Austin Kearns	Cin	NL	107	890.0	7	11
								
4 yrs	RF	Austin Kearns	Cin	NL	313	2541.7	34	18

Kearns is one of my favorite players.  His 2002 defensive season neared perfection.  It is about the best defensive season I can recall.  His RS/150 rate is off the charts.

So there you have the top defensive players in the NL over the last 20 years.  Amazingly, Grace’s total RSpt compared favorably to the other positions.

YEAR	POS	NAME	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
TOT	1B	Mark Grace	ChC	NL	2162	18590	68	5
TOT	2B	Jose Oquendo	StL	NL	630	4865	79	22
TOT	3B	Scott Rolen	StL	NL	1247	10863	124	15
TOT	SS	Ozzie Smith	StL	NL	1206	10383	130	17
TOT	LF	Geoff Jenkins	Mil	NL	789	6650.3	65	13
TOT	CF	Steve Finley	Ari	NL	1849	15658.7	39	3
TOT	RF	Tony Gwynn	SD	NL	1610	13645.7	90	9

This synopsis says that center field has the closest talent set.  Third base seems to have the widest talent set, but the other positions seem to have varying opinions on who can play a given position.

There are two Hall of Famers already on this list, and Rolen is certainly headed in that direction.  That’s a nice show.  Yes, in count stats, that would seem to be obvious – more innings, more RSpt.  However, RSpt has a good deal of negative, so playing long doesn’t get you on this list.  You have to at least good for a long time, or great for a short time.

 

Chris Dial Posted: August 24, 2006 at 04:37 AM | 116 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2
   101. Andere Richtingen Posted: August 27, 2006 at 02:32 AM (#2158183)
But I am pretty confident in saying balls that hit 20' high off a wall are caught less than .000001% of the time. It seems like something they should have thought of, and it never really occurred to me that they hadn't.

Am I right in thinking that everything in play falls into someone's zone of responsibility? Saying that a ball is in someone's zone doesn't mean that it's reasonable to expect them to catch it. And sure, high walls present a special case that ideally would be taken into consideration.
   102. Dan Turkenkopf Posted: August 27, 2006 at 02:44 AM (#2158216)
Am I right in thinking that everything in play falls into someone's zone of responsibility? Saying that a ball is in someone's zone doesn't mean that it's reasonable to expect them to catch it.


I'm pretty sure responsible zones for ZR are defined as any location where 50% of the plays are converted into outs. I think there are a few areas that are within no one's realm - but Dial or MWE or Chone could answer that better.

It seems strange to me too that balls off the wall are counted as missed in-zone plays. I understand the problem - they'd need more zones - or park-specific zones - to account for the high walls.

Also, with the revamping of the zones in 99, did Stats go back and retroactively change the ZR for outfielders - or are we measuring apples to oranges in the outfield?
   103. Rally Posted: August 27, 2006 at 01:42 PM (#2158397)
There are a few zone's that are not assigned to anyone. My source is Chris's article: What is Zone Rating?

In the infield, there are 22 zones in fair territory, and one unassigned zone between 3b and ss, one between 2b and 1b, and 2 zones up the middle.

There are 2 unassigned zones across the OF, for flyballs and popups, and several more for line drives. Also, line drives over 340 to the corners or 370 to center are unassigned.
   104. The Mighty Quinn Posted: August 27, 2006 at 03:15 PM (#2158444)
<i>Right, and bulking up would hinder one's fielding ability.

Actually,if you've ever looked at a world class sprinter, bulking up seems to be the way to go. Such chemically enhanced runners as Ben Johnson, Gatlin, Tim Montgomery all are built like proverbial" brickshit houses". From the little I know about advanced sprinting theory , apparently having a muscular upper torso improves your piston pumping ( or arm actions) thereby increasing your speed.

I think it fair to assume Bonds with his new body by Balco not only could whip the bat head faster, but he probably got a little boost in foot speed as well. Being bulky didn't seem to affect Canseco who was a forty home run man/ forty stolen base in a season guy at an advanced age.
   105. Minus Ice Posted: August 28, 2006 at 07:40 PM (#2159561)
All other metrics use "assumed flyballs". Mine uses percentage of flyballs. Have you looked at Defensive Average/Defensive Runs? I have that database somewhere and I'll check. Dewan doesn't have Fielding Bible data prior to about three years ago - he'd be using the ZR data for any commentary prior.

Uh, how do you know exactly how BP'S defensive statistics are calculated ?

And dewan I believe was basing his statement on billjames new relative range factors, which again, has strikingly similar results to bp's FRAA.
   106. Minus Ice Posted: August 28, 2006 at 07:45 PM (#2159565)
Actually,if you've ever looked at a world class sprinter, bulking up seems to be the way to go. Such chemically enhanced runners as Ben Johnson, Gatlin, Tim Montgomery all are built like proverbial" brickshit houses". From the little I know about advanced sprinting theory , apparently having a muscular upper torso improves your piston pumping ( or arm actions) thereby increasing your speed.

Ben Johnson was a runner, a track star, completely different type of steroid user.

Andruw Jones has bulked up over the years, and the results ? - Better power, worse defense. He went from having the greatest peak defensively of all-time, to being about average, while his power numbers leaped.

but he probably got a little boost in foot speed as well

No proof of this at all, and every reliable fielding metric disagrees.

Being bulky didn't seem to affect Canseco who was a forty home run man/ forty stolen base in a season guy at an advanced age.


Irrelevant, and a bad comparison. Canseco was young and in his prime, and never came close to that type of speed again.
   107. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 28, 2006 at 07:45 PM (#2159566)
Uh, how do you know exactly how BP'S defensive statistics are calculated ?


Clay Davenport published the initial formula in the 1998 Prospectus, and it doesn't appear from the results as though it's varied much since then.

And dewan I believe was basing his statement on billjames new relative range factors, which again, has strikingly similar results to bp's FRAA.


Which isn't surprising, given that they make the same basic assumptions about BIP distribution.

-- MWE
   108. Minus Ice Posted: August 28, 2006 at 07:47 PM (#2159567)
Clay Davenport published the initial formula in the 1998 Prospectus, and it doesn't appear from the results as though it's varied much since then.
link ?
   109. Minus Ice Posted: August 28, 2006 at 08:33 PM (#2159607)
Just out of curiousity, since I missed it, how does chris handle errors, either ROE errors, or other types of errors, such as on a throw from the OutFielder ?
   110. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 28, 2006 at 08:36 PM (#2159610)
link ?


It's in the book. Not online.

-- MWE
   111. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: August 28, 2006 at 09:39 PM (#2159659)
Just out of curiousity, since I missed it, how does chris handle errors, either ROE errors, or other types of errors, such as on a throw from the OutFielder ?

Errors are not directly considered. This basically reflects how many balls were caught out of balls hit in the zone (plus balls caught out of zone). So you can miss a ball in your zone via lack of range or an error, but it just counts as a missed ball.
   112. Minus Ice Posted: September 01, 2006 at 12:04 AM (#2163946)
Just out of curiousity, did anyone notice that BP'S FRAA totals for each and every player changed ?

For example, on Bonds, his score lowered from 129, to 80, still very good, but not at the very high level it was at before.

On the other hand, Wagner's total went up, now an astonishing 200.
   113. Chris Dial Posted: September 01, 2006 at 12:20 AM (#2163969)
They changed? Since when?
   114. Minus Ice Posted: September 12, 2006 at 09:02 PM (#2174801)
Guess a few weeks ago chris. And BTW, since your PBP system rates Bonds at about averabe, compared to BP'S well above average rating of him. Do you believe Ted Williams would take a hit too given the fact that BP rates him as just slightly above average.
   115. Richard Gadsden Posted: September 24, 2006 at 12:57 AM (#2186261)
Roid guys on the track generally get their big advantage after 50m - indeed indoor sprinting (60m) is usually cleaner than outdoors. So it might well be that a roid user's 100m time is better than it would be without the roids, and he's still slower in every way that's useful in baseball.

The arm-pump is about sustaining and developing speed once you've gotten going, ie in the 40m-80m zone. Chasing down a flyball, you rarely get up to your full sprinting speed, and you're not normally able to pump your arms because you have this great big glove and you need to stretch for the ball. Unless OFs are regularly covering 200ft or more for a ball - and even Coors isn't that big - I don't think there are big benefits in fielding from roids.

Stimulants are another story, of course.
   116. JoeArthur Posted: November 04, 2006 at 01:19 AM (#2231328)
Roid guys on the track generally get their big advantage after 50m - indeed indoor sprinting (60m) is usually cleaner than outdoors. So it might well be that a roid user's 100m time is better than it would be without the roids, and he's still slower in every way that's useful in baseball.


???? Steroids can't build leg muscle mass too ???? The arms have to be strong enough to keep up with the legs, so I think Richard's description of the arm pump "sustaining" speed is OK; I don't agree with the word 'developing'. You propel yourself forward with your legs; running is controlled falling forward and armswing enhances balance (Stand in place and pump your arms as hard as you like and see how fast you go.) Published 10m splits for the 1987 world championship 100 meter race showed that steroid-user Ben Johnson achieved his lead over Carl Lewis in the first 10 meters and the gap remained pretty constant the rest of the way, including from 40-80 meters.

Baseball steroid users might get faster in a way useful in baseball games; it would depend on their actual training ...
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