Knowing that the guy who owns this place is pretty casual but trying to support his no politics effort how is one supposed to handle this type of post?
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
Speaking of people cheating, y’all need to check out Fat Donnie’s twitter feed today, he is absolutely losing his ####. He retweeted a drawing of his “enemies” all behind bars for the crime of “treason” *including Rod Rosenstein*. Then he referenced some Canadian documents showing the money spent to resettle an immigrant family and pretended they were American documents.
Losing. His. ####.
Just asking. Because pretty clearly violates what I understood to be the new code of conduct or whatever you want to call it. And this poster was one of the hard core politics posters in that thread before it was nuked. If this makes me a rat whatever.
I think if it’s not in an OT thread it should be deleted, with a polite invitation to keep that kind of discussion where it belongs. If it is in the politics OT thread, that’s what the politics OT thread is for. If it’s the hoops Or soccer OT thread then it’s up to the OP of that thread I suppose to deal with it.
MLB gambling thread and totally unrelated to discussion which made it really jump out like ‘whoa, dude’
That’s the type of gratuitous interjection of unrelated political content that bogged down many a thread before OTP was created. Seems to have been ignored, so far, and perhaps that’s sufficient.
Never Give an Inge (Dave) - 28 November 2018 01:58 PM
What, exactly, are they key differences in functionality that people like between the “Forum” format and the “Newsblog” format? Other than the Newsblog threads have an intro pinned to the top and the Forum threads don’t pin the first post?
Otherwise, to me they just seem like two different interfaces. Each one has some features that I like and some that I don’t. And I think that you could fairly easily have an interface that combines the best of both, if people actually agreed on what the “best” was.
I think that it is easier to search the forums than the Mainland; if you’re signed in. I know the Lounge isn’t searchable via Google or wherever, but I’m not sure about the rest of these pages.
Knowing that the guy who owns this place is pretty casual but trying to support his no politics effort how is one supposed to handle this type of post?
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
Speaking of people cheating, y’all need to check out Fat Donnie’s twitter feed today, he is absolutely losing his ####. He retweeted a drawing of his “enemies” all behind bars for the crime of “treason” *including Rod Rosenstein*. Then he referenced some Canadian documents showing the money spent to resettle an immigrant family and pretended they were American documents.
Losing. His. ####.
Just asking. Because pretty clearly violates what I understood to be the new code of conduct or whatever you want to call it. And this poster was one of the hard core politics posters in that thread before it was nuked. If this makes me a rat whatever.
I think if it’s not in an OT thread it should be deleted, with a polite invitation to keep that kind of discussion where it belongs. If it is in the politics OT thread, that’s what the politics OT thread is for. If it’s the hoops Or soccer OT thread then it’s up to the OP of that thread I suppose to deal with it.
MLB gambling thread and totally unrelated to discussion which made it really jump out like ‘whoa, dude’
That’s the type of gratuitous interjection of unrelated political content that bogged down many a thread before OTP was created. Seems to have been ignored, so far, and perhaps that’s sufficient.
As someone with experience in moderation and changing online behaviors unless this poster gets contacted and told that his post violated site’s rules of engagement the behavior will continue in stealth mode as the poster tests out if anyone is watching. Just trying to help based on history/experiences
Knowing that the guy who owns this place is pretty casual but trying to support his no politics effort how is one supposed to handle this type of post?
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
Speaking of people cheating, y’all need to check out Fat Donnie’s twitter feed today, he is absolutely losing his ####. He retweeted a drawing of his “enemies” all behind bars for the crime of “treason” *including Rod Rosenstein*. Then he referenced some Canadian documents showing the money spent to resettle an immigrant family and pretended they were American documents.
Losing. His. ####.
Just asking. Because pretty clearly violates what I understood to be the new code of conduct or whatever you want to call it. And this poster was one of the hard core politics posters in that thread before it was nuked. If this makes me a rat whatever.
I think if it’s not in an OT thread it should be deleted, with a polite invitation to keep that kind of discussion where it belongs. If it is in the politics OT thread, that’s what the politics OT thread is for. If it’s the hoops Or soccer OT thread then it’s up to the OP of that thread I suppose to deal with it.
MLB gambling thread and totally unrelated to discussion which made it really jump out like ‘whoa, dude’
That’s the type of gratuitous interjection of unrelated political content that bogged down many a thread before OTP was created. Seems to have been ignored, so far, and perhaps that’s sufficient.
As someone with experience in moderation and changing online behaviors unless this poster gets contacted and told that his post violated site’s rules of engagement the behavior will continue in stealth mode as the poster tests out if anyone is watching. Just trying to help based on history/experiences
Seems to have been addressed, as that off-topic post now reads:
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
[Deleted for being a completely off-topic political comment. Member can discuss politics in the OTP thread in the forums. Jim]
Never Give an Inge (Dave) - 28 November 2018 01:58 PM
What, exactly, are they key differences in functionality that people like between the “Forum” format and the “Newsblog” format? Other than the Newsblog threads have an intro pinned to the top and the Forum threads don’t pin the first post?
Otherwise, to me they just seem like two different interfaces. Each one has some features that I like and some that I don’t. And I think that you could fairly easily have an interface that combines the best of both, if people actually agreed on what the “best” was.
I think that it is easier to search the forums than the Mainland; if you’re signed in. I know the Lounge isn’t searchable via Google or wherever, but I’m not sure about the rest of these pages.
OK: more forums salesmanship.
Forums nowadays have all kinds of features that are useful, some of which people may like, others not as much. There are many examples and I assume templates that could be used as models for whatever we want here. There are ratings. You can PM people internal to the site. Moderators and other official folks are identified as such. Your individual contributions are automatically maintained as an archive. Easier to post images and not bog down the system. Tapatalk exists as a mobile app that can be adopted for viewing the site.
On one that I frequent, the avatar of the original poster in a thread appears next to the thread heading on the main page of the subforum. If I’ve previously commented to that thread, my avatar appears as an inset within that little image. This makes it very easy for me to sift through and check up on existing threads I am interested in. Bookmarking threads is very 2007.
One issue with forums is that you pretty much have to organize threads by subforum categories, but I think there is a functionality available where you can list all threads in all subforums, organized by date posted or by number of posts. You could save this as a preference if you wanted. The subforums that currently exist on BTF were created as what Jim imagined could be for BTF, not so much what BTF actually is. So most of them are empty. At this point over a decade later, we could define subforums based on what people are actually talking about on BTF. Existing BTF blogs could go into independent subforums, where only blog authors would be allowed to post threads.
A fundamental difference is that in most forums, any user can post a new thread in any subforum. That is different from BTF, except in the forums section where there isn’t much if any baseball content. I would suggest making the jump to having baseball subforums where anyone can post a new thread if they want to. I would suggest maintaining Newsblog as a subforum, with keys given to a set of regulars to post new threads, much as it works now—approval would be immediate for those folks, but a duplicate thread could be deleted or merged.
I think the best thing about a forums format is that it’s flexible; within it we can make it whatever we want, and perhaps most importantly, fairly easily make adjustments to the structure when desired. BTF has a special place in my heart, but the other two or three discussion sites I use that are entirely in forum format are MUCH easier and pleasant to use than BTF, and that includes the Lounge, which is in forum format but very outdated. The fact that BTF still exists is a testament to the fact that it’s a good thing with a future worthy of reinvestment.
Inge is right though: this is just a format, and it still requires work to maintain a healthy site. Forums have to be actively moderated, by active participants. Feeling the need to pester Jim every time someone leaves the toilet seat up is not acceptable. MHS’s example in the gambling thread is an easy one, but in cases where a thread has degenerated into a monkey poop fight, or someone has posted borderline objectionable material of some kind, or the discussion has veered into OT, an empowered moderator has to be available to act appropriately: remove the post, warn the poster, close the thread, delete the thread, whatever. All of this needs to be in the terms of service and people have to accept that or go away. Threads posted in the wrong subforum can be easily moved, but a link for that thread remains in the forum it was originally posted in, marked as “moved to X” so those who have posted in it can still find it. Threads that have veered OT could be moved to OT subforums this way and people would still be able to find them. The non-BTF forum sites I use are pretty aggressive with the moderation, perhaps more aggressive than we want BTF to be, but rarely do I see people complain. There are plenty of sites out there available for people who want more of a Wild West atmosphere for their online discussions. And within a Forum, you can segregate the Wild West from the rest of the site—BTF already does this, fairly effectively, really, with OT sites on the mainland, and of course, the Lounge. That could be done within an entirely forum-based structure, and the result would be much easier to navigate.. It’s way easier to transition from OT discussion to baseball-related discussion when the subforums are all organized in one set of lists.
There may well be better, non-forum based structures available with which I am not familiar. My knowledge about this stuff is purely that of a user. But in BTF we have what was an attempt to invent the wheel over ten years ago (I say this humbly, recognizing that it was created at a time when this was all pretty new). At this point, I think what we definitely don’t want is an attempt to reinvent the wheel. I mean, I use these other forums and think all of the time: I really wish BTF were like this.
Knowing that the guy who owns this place is pretty casual but trying to support his no politics effort how is one supposed to handle this type of post?
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
Speaking of people cheating, y’all need to check out Fat Donnie’s twitter feed today, he is absolutely losing his ####. He retweeted a drawing of his “enemies” all behind bars for the crime of “treason” *including Rod Rosenstein*. Then he referenced some Canadian documents showing the money spent to resettle an immigrant family and pretended they were American documents.
Losing. His. ####.
Just asking. Because pretty clearly violates what I understood to be the new code of conduct or whatever you want to call it. And this poster was one of the hard core politics posters in that thread before it was nuked. If this makes me a rat whatever.
I think if it’s not in an OT thread it should be deleted, with a polite invitation to keep that kind of discussion where it belongs. If it is in the politics OT thread, that’s what the politics OT thread is for. If it’s the hoops Or soccer OT thread then it’s up to the OP of that thread I suppose to deal with it.
MLB gambling thread and totally unrelated to discussion which made it really jump out like ‘whoa, dude’
That’s the type of gratuitous interjection of unrelated political content that bogged down many a thread before OTP was created. Seems to have been ignored, so far, and perhaps that’s sufficient.
As someone with experience in moderation and changing online behaviors unless this poster gets contacted and told that his post violated site’s rules of engagement the behavior will continue in stealth mode as the poster tests out if anyone is watching. Just trying to help based on history/experiences
I agree with that—there has to be direct feedback communicated to the poster (via PM, which is needed). First time, politely pointing out the error, as someone did removing the post itself. The next time it happens, they get a warning. The time after that, they can be banned. Or you warn the first time it happens.
I don’t know this, but the post in question was so out of place that I wonder whether the poster thought it was a different forum, and thus an honest mistake. If not, then the poster is pretty clueless, perhaps due to naivete, or perhaps due to an inability to engage in reasonable online discussion. The naive person responds appropriately to a warning, the unreasonable person gets banned on the third strike for being unable to follow simple rules, and few users if any will miss them. I’ve seen sites where someone who’s been warned is marked as such, visible to all users (I assume this status exists in other sites where it’s visible only to moderators). Personally I think public labeling is a bit too much. A warn mark can have an expiration date, I assume. A true miscreant will re-register and re-offend, and that’s when things get ugly. It’s like being a teacher: 2% of students will occupy 50% of your time with nonsense. All you can do to minimize that is run a tight ship.
The Forum section would work better, and look better, if the numerous threads that have been inactive for years weren’t intermingled with the few that are active.
Knowing that the guy who owns this place is pretty casual but trying to support his no politics effort how is one supposed to handle this type of post?
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
Speaking of people cheating, y’all need to check out Fat Donnie’s twitter feed today, he is absolutely losing his ####. He retweeted a drawing of his “enemies” all behind bars for the crime of “treason” *including Rod Rosenstein*. Then he referenced some Canadian documents showing the money spent to resettle an immigrant family and pretended they were American documents.
Losing. His. ####.
Just asking. Because pretty clearly violates what I understood to be the new code of conduct or whatever you want to call it. And this poster was one of the hard core politics posters in that thread before it was nuked. If this makes me a rat whatever.
I think if it’s not in an OT thread it should be deleted, with a polite invitation to keep that kind of discussion where it belongs. If it is in the politics OT thread, that’s what the politics OT thread is for. If it’s the hoops Or soccer OT thread then it’s up to the OP of that thread I suppose to deal with it.
MLB gambling thread and totally unrelated to discussion which made it really jump out like ‘whoa, dude’
That’s the type of gratuitous interjection of unrelated political content that bogged down many a thread before OTP was created. Seems to have been ignored, so far, and perhaps that’s sufficient.
As someone with experience in moderation and changing online behaviors unless this poster gets contacted and told that his post violated site’s rules of engagement the behavior will continue in stealth mode as the poster tests out if anyone is watching. Just trying to help based on history/experiences
Seems to have been addressed, as that off-topic post now reads:
51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 28, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5791878)
[Deleted for being a completely off-topic political comment. Member can discuss politics in the OTP thread in the forums. Jim]
Never Give an Inge (Dave) - 28 November 2018 01:58 PM
What, exactly, are they key differences in functionality that people like between the “Forum” format and the “Newsblog” format? Other than the Newsblog threads have an intro pinned to the top and the Forum threads don’t pin the first post?
Otherwise, to me they just seem like two different interfaces. Each one has some features that I like and some that I don’t. And I think that you could fairly easily have an interface that combines the best of both, if people actually agreed on what the “best” was.
I think that it is easier to search the forums than the Mainland; if you’re signed in. I know the Lounge isn’t searchable via Google or wherever, but I’m not sure about the rest of these pages.
OK: more forums salesmanship.
Forums nowadays have all kinds of features that are useful, some of which people may like, others not as much. There are many examples and I assume templates that could be used as models for whatever we want here. There are ratings. You can PM people internal to the site. Moderators and other official folks are identified as such. Your individual contributions are automatically maintained as an archive. Easier to post images and not bog down the system. Tapatalk exists as a mobile app that can be adopted for viewing the site.
On one that I frequent, the avatar of the original poster in a thread appears next to the thread heading on the main page of the subforum. If I’ve previously commented to that thread, my avatar appears as an inset within that little image. This makes it very easy for me to sift through and check up on existing threads I am interested in. Bookmarking threads is very 2007.
One issue with forums is that you pretty much have to organize threads by subforum categories, but I think there is a functionality available where you can list all threads in all subforums, organized by date posted or by number of posts. You could save this as a preference if you wanted. The subforums that currently exist on BTF were created as what Jim imagined could be for BTF, not so much what BTF actually is. So most of them are empty. At this point over a decade later, we could define subforums based on what people are actually talking about on BTF. Existing BTF blogs could go into independent subforums, where only blog authors would be allowed to post threads.
A fundamental difference is that in most forums, any user can post a new thread in any subforum. That is different from BTF, except in the forums section where there isn’t much if any baseball content. I would suggest making the jump to having baseball subforums where anyone can post a new thread if they want to. I would suggest maintaining Newsblog as a subforum, with keys given to a set of regulars to post new threads, much as it works now—approval would be immediate for those folks, but a duplicate thread could be deleted or merged.
I think the best thing about a forums format is that it’s flexible; within it we can make it whatever we want, and perhaps most importantly, fairly easily make adjustments to the structure when desired. BTF has a special place in my heart, but the other two or three discussion sites I use that are entirely in forum format are MUCH easier and pleasant to use than BTF, and that includes the Lounge, which is in forum format but very outdated. The fact that BTF still exists is a testament to the fact that it’s a good thing with a future worthy of reinvestment.
Inge is right though: this is just a format, and it still requires work to maintain a healthy site. Forums have to be actively moderated, by active participants. Feeling the need to pester Jim every time someone leaves the toilet seat up is not acceptable. MHS’s example in the gambling thread is an easy one, but in cases where a thread has degenerated into a monkey poop fight, or someone has posted borderline objectionable material of some kind, or the discussion has veered into OT, an empowered moderator has to be available to act appropriately: remove the post, warn the poster, close the thread, delete the thread, whatever. All of this needs to be in the terms of service and people have to accept that or go away. Threads posted in the wrong subforum can be easily moved, but a link for that thread remains in the forum it was originally posted in, marked as “moved to X” so those who have posted in it can still find it. Threads that have veered OT could be moved to OT subforums this way and people would still be able to find them. The non-BTF forum sites I use are pretty aggressive with the moderation, perhaps more aggressive than we want BTF to be, but rarely do I see people complain. There are plenty of sites out there available for people who want more of a Wild West atmosphere for their online discussions. And within a Forum, you can segregate the Wild West from the rest of the site—BTF already does this, fairly effectively, really, with OT sites on the mainland, and of course, the Lounge. That could be done within an entirely forum-based structure, and the result would be much easier to navigate.. It’s way easier to transition from OT discussion to baseball-related discussion when the subforums are all organized in one set of lists.
There may well be better, non-forum based structures available with which I am not familiar. My knowledge about this stuff is purely that of a user. But in BTF we have what was an attempt to invent the wheel over ten years ago (I say this humbly, recognizing that it was created at a time when this was all pretty new). At this point, I think what we definitely don’t want is an attempt to reinvent the wheel. I mean, I use these other forums and think all of the time: I really wish BTF were like this.
And for the Jim person and others to remember is that there is CLEARLY a dedicated user population. A platform overhaul is not going to erode the current base. And these users are not paying and doesn’t seem the owners are counting on any ad revenue so there is no downside to major change. It’s a ‘###### let’s go man!’ opportunity
The Forum section would work better, and look better, if the numerous threads that have been inactive for years weren’t intermingled with the few that are active.
The current structure reflects the origins of the current site, which were based on a vision of the future rather than accommodating what is happening now. If BTF were to go all-forums—and I promise this will be my last long post selling the idea until we hear from some other people—we would want to rebuild it based on what BTF is now, except with improved utility, more user convenience features, and flexibility. Rule number one should be no new discussion categories, unless those discussions are currently going on in BTF.
Forums are usually set up so that some of the subforum structure is automatically sorted by most recent post, but there is a locked-in superstructure like the one that now exists for BTF forums (which has way, way too many unused subforums). Off the top of my head, here’s how BTF’s could possibly be setup, with bolded headings being locked in (perhaps individuals could customize the order of bolded groups). When you went to the Forums page you would not see the individual threads, but there might be a small-font list of the individual sub-forums. People who only go to one or a few of these sub-forums might just bookmark those on their browser, or just let auto-complete get them there, so they would never see this page.
Community Standards/NSFW would vary between forum groupings, maybe even among sub-forums within forum groupings. The OT section should definitely not be Google-searchable, and the civility and profanity standards may be lower than in the others. There would be site-wide standards (no linking porn, no hate speech, no junk on toast), but relaxed within non-Google searchable forums, to allow some R-rated language, people being unpleasant to one another within reason, etc.
Newsblog You could break this up into sub-categories, but my tendency would be not to do so. You would continue to use keywords—most forums I see have a good search function.
Individual threads linked to news stories
BTF blogs Individual blogs would be sorted by most recent post—Newsblog could also be included within this subforum, as BTF currently intermingles them under Hot Topics. Right now, I believe there are two active team-specific blogs, Sox Therapy and Gonfalon Cubs. In the latter case, it’s almost completely seasonal, and Moses or I (>90% Moses) post a few comments/observations every few weeks during the season, and then a general discussion commences, not necessarily connected to the post. This works for us. If people want to start new team-specific blogs (or revive old ones) then that would be encouraged—Primer v.3.0 might be an impetus to get some new things started.
Hall of Merit
Most Meritorious Player
Take Back the Ballparks
Sox Therapy
Gonfalon Cubs
etc.
General baseball discussion Anyone can post a thread.
I would not break this up into sub-categories. If it turns out to be necessary it could be done later.
Daily Game Chatter
I think the one chatter per day thing has worked well, but people could post more than one if they wanted to. There’s probably a way to have the daily chatter thread posted automatically, as it used to be, but you would not want to be automatically making new threads every day that’s aren’t used.
BTF Community Anyone can post a thread.
Community Issues and Site Requests
Meet-ups
Everything but baseball Anyone can post a thread. Relaxed (within reason) profanity/civility standards compared to other forums? Not Google searchable. Here I would provide subforums for currently existing, regularly renewed mainland OT threads (politics, NBA, football, etc.)—others could be added later if people wanted them.
Primer Lounge (should remain as it is—someone posts a daily thread, with a few additional side-threads thrown out as well on various topics)
Stuff You Should Not Discuss at the Thanksgiving Dinner Table (i.e., Politics, Religion, Sex)
Meet-ups
NBA
NFL
NCAA football
Soccer
Anyway, I have probably said enough about my vision regarding an all-forums BTF, which likely has some holes in it. I’d really like to hear what others have to say.
Just jumping in to say that if you still have thoughts and ideas, and aren’t sharing them because you think you’ve “probably said enough”, then you haven’t said enough. I appreciate what you and others are saying in this thread.
Just jumping in to say that if you still have thoughts and ideas, and aren’t sharing them because you think you’ve “probably said enough”, then you haven’t said enough. I appreciate what you and others are saying in this thread.
I guess I think I’ve said enough to start one conversation. I would love to see people critique what I said, amend it, propose alternatives, all of that.
But at the same time, it would be good if Jim were to give us a better idea of what kind of transition we are talking about. He has long recognized his lack of engagement here to be an issue, and I totally understand where he’s coming from and am certainly in no position to cast the first stone. But that being the case, it means that there is a need here for an explicit succession to new oversight, leadership, in part or full, and if ownership is also involved, a financial transaction. Is that going to happen? Who would be qualified and interested in being (a) successor(s)? But first we need to know what Jim has in mind—it’s his site.
Just jumping in to say that if you still have thoughts and ideas, and aren’t sharing them because you think you’ve “probably said enough”, then you haven’t said enough. I appreciate what you and others are saying in this thread.
I guess I think I’ve said enough to start one conversation. I would love to see people critique what I said, amend it, propose alternatives, all of that.
But at the same time, it would be good if Jim were to give us a better idea of what kind of transition we are talking about. He has long recognized his lack of engagement here to be an issue, and I totally understand where he’s coming from and am certainly in no position to cast the first stone. But that being the case, it means that there is a need here for an explicit succession to new oversight, leadership, in part or full, and if ownership is also involved, a financial transaction. Is that going to happen? Who would be qualified and interested in being (a) successor(s)? But first we need to know what Jim has in mind—it’s his site.
That last paragraph is really good and along what this punk think needs to happen. Before any overhaul, any changes, any tweaks there needs to be a vision and something written down that describes that vision. What is in scope, what is out of scope, functional requirements, non-functional requirements, etc.
