BBTF's Game Chatter Discussion :: RedSox (88-68) @ Yankees (95-61), Saturday, September 24, 2011, 4:10pm

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Saturday, September 24, 2011

RedSox (88-68) @ Yankees (95-61), Saturday, September 24, 2011, 4:10pm

BOS: Jon Lester (27, LHP, 15-8, 3.15)
NYY: Freddy Garcia (34, RHP, 11-8, 3.77)

The Primer Chimp Posted: September 24, 2011 at 01:00 PM | 226 comment(s)
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1. tfbg9 Posted: September 24, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#3934826)

Best I can tell, Vegas puts the Sox at 58.9% to win.
I don't believe it either.

2. Fat Al Posted: September 24, 2011 at 05:01 PM (#3934842)

Yanks lineup

Derek Jeter SS
Curtis Granderson CF
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nick Swisher RF
Andruw Jones LF
Jesus Montero DH
Russell Martin C

3. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#3934845)

Why the #### is Adrian Gonzalez being dropped to 5th in the batting order to bump Carl "sub-.300 OBP" Crawford to 2nd in the order?

Are you ####### joking, Francona?

4. Fat Al Posted: September 24, 2011 at 05:07 PM (#3934852)

Sox lineup

Ellsbury CF
Crawford LF
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Gonzalez 1B
Aviles 3B
Scutaro SS
Reddick RF
Saltalamacchia C

5. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3935050)

Weird order.

L-L-R-L-L-R-R-L-L

The four lefties in a row (Salty is a switch-hitter in fact but not in effect) and six lefties in seven spots is not a good idea, tactically.

6. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:16 PM (#3935053)

Buck called that a pitch-out. Buck knows nothing about baseball.

7. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:16 PM (#3935054)

Jeeze, Ellsbury did not get a great jump. That was closer than it ought to have been.

8. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:17 PM (#3935055)

Crawford has been hitting quite well. I still don't get the change. If anything he makes sense as a 5 hitter given the relatively low obp/good slugging.

9. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:17 PM (#3935056)

Glad that guy's batting 2nd. Can't even move the ####### runner over.

10. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3935057)

Nearly a ribbie double, then pops out on ball four. That's our Carl!

11. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3935058)

Buck called that a pitch-out. Buck knows nothing about baseball.

Buck is not working this game. You really think Vasgersian sounds anything like Joe Buck?

12. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:19 PM (#3935060)

I just assumed. I tuned in and heard a missed call, thought it had to be Buck.

Vasgersian is fine, guess he just messed up one.

13. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:22 PM (#3935061)

Had a man on second with no outs and didn't score. Wonderful early dividends for Francona's retarded new lineup.

14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:22 PM (#3935062)

I really hate not hitting against Garcia and his slop. Our lefties against his slop, in NYS, should be an easy crooked number every couple innings.

15. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3935063)

Francona has a long history of shuffling his lineup when the team is struggling.

The positive spin is that since lineups don't actually matter, it's a way of projecting "this is important" without costing the club runs. The negative spin is that it signifies panic.

16. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3935064)

The lineup change netted an AB for Crawford with a runner in scoring position at the cost of a Gonzalez AB with a runner in scoring position. So ####### dumb.

17. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:25 PM (#3935065)

The difference in run expectation is beyond miniscule.

18. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:25 PM (#3935066)

It doesn't annoy me so much that it signifies panic so much as it signifies Francona having no real logic to how he sets the lineup. Look, if you want to shuffle 5-9 around in any which way, be my guest. But moving one of the best hitters on the team from 3rd to 5th in the lineup is just dumb.

19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:27 PM (#3935067)

5th is just about as important as 3rd. 2nd is the most important - moving Crawford there is the only part that is a problem in terms of lineup optimization.

20. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:27 PM (#3935068)

Pedroia and Ortiz also made outs. The idea that the marginal difference of Crawford changed the whole thing is way overstated. It might be dumb, but the amount of anger seems outsized.

21. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3935069)

The difference in run expectation is beyond miniscule.

Even if you want to take this stance, what's the upshot? Some wild ass theory that hitting 2nd is going to restore Crawford's shattered confidence?

Also looking forward to a lefty reliever coming in to face Reddick and staying in through Gonzalez since he'll have to face 1 right-handed hitter out of those 7 straight guys.

22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3935070)

Well, Lester threw one good inning.

23. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#3935071)

"Crawford on hitting lower: "Very frustrating. That's big part of my game and to have that taken away from you is pretty tough to deal with."

Crawford on hitting 2: "I can cause a little more havoc and pretty much play the way I always have played - try to steal bases and get on."
From Sean McAdam

Hey dumbass, they're paying you 20 mill, how bout you 'try' and 'cause' accordingly.

24. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#3935072)

Even if you want to take this stance, what's the upshot? Some wild ass theory that hitting 2nd is going to restore Crawford's shattered confidence?

I gave the sympathetic position in #15. It's a way of shaking things up, without doing something that would actually hurt the team, like using different personnel.

I don't feel one way or the other about it. Feel like it basically doesn't matter at all, more likely than not.

25. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:31 PM (#3935073)

I don't understand the theory that his speed is neutralized by batting lower. Running in front of guys like Salty and Scutaro should happen MORE frequently than running in front of Gonzalez and Ortiz, who are likely to drive you in from first anyway.

26. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:31 PM (#3935074)

Crawford's confidence is not shattered. .287/.322/.485 since August 1st. Like I said, it's a nice line for a #5 or #6 hitter clearing the table rather than setting it.

27. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3935075)

Apparently they're not going to score off the guy with a September ERA over 10.

28. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:34 PM (#3935076)

Vasgersian and McCarver have no idea how this could be blamed on the manager. It's incredibly simple, of course - the club is in a tailspin, playing dumb ball, and he's supposed to be able to get them out of it.

29. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:35 PM (#3935077)

Those were the two righties that inning. Lefties have killed Garcia this year (830 OPS), and we've got six lefties coming up in seven spots. This offense is going to hang a couple runs on Garcia very soon.

30. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:35 PM (#3935078)

This season has made it look incredibly silly that the Yankees spent $1.6B on a new stadium without a roof.

31. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3935079)

One of these days, the television will create an SAP button that is not Spanish, but sabermetric and I won't have to listen to this bullshit.

32. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3935080)

Lester gives up a hit to a lefty -- what a ####### joke.

33. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3935081)

this could be blamed on the manager. It's incredibly simple, of course - the club is in a tailspin, playing dumb ball, and he's supposed to be able to get them out of it.

The worst pitcher in baseball is rolling his eyes at him, one of the worst corner OFers is saying stupid things daily...What's the general consensus on how Farrell is doing in TOR?

34. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3935082)

Vasgersian is saying a whole lot of stupid ####.

35. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:39 PM (#3935084)

Why has no one produced a site or program that delays radio feeds by two seconds?

36. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:40 PM (#3935085)

Farrell has come on strong over the last few months after looking really bad in April and May.

37. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:40 PM (#3935086)

OK, is it really worth complaining when Lester gives up a groundball single to Robinson Cano?

38. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:41 PM (#3935087)

What's the general consensus on how Farrell is doing in TOR?

I don't know but he can't possibly be worse than ####### Francona.

Jesus Lester, get the ball near the ####### plate.

39. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:41 PM (#3935088)

Why doesn't Tito have anyone up yet? Doesn't he understand how important this game is? Lester has nothing.

40. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:42 PM (#3935089)

Oh for ####'s sake

41. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:42 PM (#3935090)

####### Scutaro. Go to third you #######/Aviles get there.

42. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:42 PM (#3935091)

Why the #### wasn't Aviles covering third?

43. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:42 PM (#3935092)

Shouldn't Aviles have been able to get to the base for the force there? That was the only play on that ball.

44. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#3935093)

Benji, he has walked one guy, given up a single, and an infield hit. But sure, he has nothing. Stop overreacting so much, it's ridiculous.

45. . . . . . . Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#3935094)

Lester is throwing like a guy with a bum elbow.

46. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#3935095)

It's not on Scutaro - he looked to third correctly and had no one there to throw to.

47. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#3935096)

OK, is it really worth complaining when Lester gives up a groundball single to Robinson Cano?

I've learned in the last few weeks that absolutely anything is worth complaining about.

48. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:44 PM (#3935098)

Stop overreacting so much, it's ridiculous.

I'm not allowed to overreact? #### this ####### team, they ####### suck moose ####.

49. NJ in NJ Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:46 PM (#3935099)

Love Jesus.

50. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:46 PM (#3935100)

You can react however you want and I can tell you it's silly to react like that. The fact that he's getting behind constantly, that's worth ######## about.

51. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:46 PM (#3935102)

Study this, Sox - that's "getting a hit with the bases loaded".

52. . . . . . . Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:46 PM (#3935103)

God, montero can hit. I don't know what they'll do with him but he can really ####### hit.

53. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:47 PM (#3935104)

[Of course I'm in the process of trying to mock all the doomsaying and Lester ends up actually having a bad inning. WTF.]

54. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:47 PM (#3935106)

There should never have been a bases loaded situation in the first place, if Aviles does his job. This club really has their heads up their asses, and on that score, the buck has to stop with the manager.

55. . . . . . . Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3935107)

Crawford DERP

56. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3935108)

Crawford is a bad joke.

57. Gamingboy Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3935109)

I am reasonably sure that the Red Sox have taken their "finishing" lessons for this season from Lebron James.

58. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3935110)

I give up.

This team is really not any fun to watch. There should be three outs now, with maybe one run in, but probably not.

#### them.

59. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3935111)

Great, Carl. Thanks for that.

60. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3935112)

Much as it pains me to admit it, McCarver is right, that's a ball Crawford has to get.

61. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#3935113)

I have a life I can live. The dishes need to get done.

62. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#3935114)

Obviously batting lower in the line-up is affecting Crawford's glove.

63. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#3935115)

And it takes one trip through the order to undo the good feeling of last night.

64. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#3935116)

Lester has come up amazingly small down the stretch here.

65. . . . . . . Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#3935117)

Thanks for coming, tip your waitresses, have a good afternoon.

66. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3935118)

And it takes one trip through the order to undo the good feeling of last night.

What made last night so good, of course, was that there wasn't a Red Sox game to #### it all up.

67. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3935119)

I have a life I can live. The dishes need to get done.

I hear my backyard needs mowing.

68. Gamingboy Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3935120)

Shut up, McCarver.

69. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3935121)

Hey, this is a pretty good game!

70. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3935122)

Hey guys, it's over, the Sox have this thing wrapped up, don't you know that?

71. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3935123)

I may join the "Lester has nothing today" bandwagon.

And gads, this is going to make McCarver's fellating Jeter even more insufferable.

72. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:51 PM (#3935124)

This team will be lucky to get 2 wins the rest of the way.

73. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:51 PM (#3935125)

Hey guys, it's over, the Sox have this thing wrapped up, don't you know that?

Until Tampa Bay wins more than a game in a series from someone who isn't Boston, that's still true.

74. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:51 PM (#3935126)

Crawford's confidence is not shattered. .287/.322/.485 since August 1st. Like I said, it's a nice line for a #5 or #6 hitter clearing the table rather than setting it.

He sure plays defense like someone whose confidence is shattered.

75. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#3935127)

C'mon Ricky Romero!

76. Joel W Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#3935128)

OK now I will shut up. Jesus.

77. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:53 PM (#3935129)

The whole team is choking. Innings like this have been utterly commonplace for two weeks now.

The clubhouse is full of veterans. There's a manager. There's a general manager. The players are professionals. Someone, somewhere in that crowd has to step up and do something.

They had two days off, and they show up just as unprepared to play professional baseball as ever.

78. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:54 PM (#3935130)

That's Hay-SOOSE to you, mister.

79. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:54 PM (#3935131)

Francona has to go. His inability to turn this around one iota has been incredibly disappointing.

80. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:56 PM (#3935132)

Until Tampa Bay wins more than a game in a series from someone who isn't Boston, that's still true.

They may still back into the playoffs, but unless they can get their heads out of their asses, it won't matter. The team is a mess, mentally and emotionally.

Every day, I say, you have to expect that today is the day they get it back together. It's been two or three weeks of saying that. I'll probably be saying it again tomorrow around noon. But until it actually happens, this team isn't accomplishing anything of value.

81. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:57 PM (#3935135)

Francona has to go. His inability to turn this around one iota has been incredibly disappointing.

I'm open to keeping him if the club does turn it around. If they miss the playoffs, he has to go. If they back into the playoffs and get beat down by Texas, he has to go. If the club doesn't start playing good baseball, he will have failed utterly in the most basic job of the manager, and that's not forgiveable.

82. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:58 PM (#3935136)

Francona has to go. His inability to turn this around one iota has been incredibly disappointing.

Not disputing Francona deserves some blame but how about getting rid of some of these piece of #### players? Lackey should be released at the very least. Preferably before tomorrow's loss.

If we aren't tied heading to Baltimore I'll be stunned.

83. Bote Man Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:59 PM (#3935137)

Do-it-yourself hari kari kits now on sale at all Shaws locations around Boston.

84. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 08:59 PM (#3935138)

Not disputing Francona deserves some blame but how about getting rid of some of these piece of #### players?

The offseason will be interesting regardless. They need pitching, and there isn't much out there.

85. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:00 PM (#3935139)

My thing is a piggy back on MCoA's #77. Mike Aviles has been playing baseball at various levels for 20 ####### years, he knows what to do in that situation. How about holding the players accountable for their utter failure?

86. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:00 PM (#3935140)

But yeah, they blow this, Francona's gotta go.

87. dave h Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:00 PM (#3935141)

How pissed is Ellsbury right now? He continues to play awesome, and has to wonder wtf is up with the rest of the team. Meanwhile, their tailspin is probably costing him the MVP.

88. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:01 PM (#3935142)

Every single player has choked several times during this run. YOu want to release the whole damn roster? It's pretty clear there's an underlying issue at this point.

89. NJ in NJ Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:01 PM (#3935143)

The offseason will be interesting regardless. They need pitching, and there isn't much out there.

Would they go after CJ Wilson?

90. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:02 PM (#3935144)

Every single player has choked several times during this run. YOu want to release the whole damn roster? It's pretty clear there's an underlying issue at this point.

Do something. Hell, start a Pawtucket lineup if necessary.

91. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:02 PM (#3935145)

How about holding the players accountable for their utter failure?

I do.

But this isn't an isolated incident. Aviles' mistake and Crawford's error happened within three minutes of each other. Aceves not following orders blew the game two night ago. The team has been making errors, mental and physical, at an astounding rate for three weeks no.

The individual errors are on the players, but the pattern is on the manager.

92. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3935147)

Would they go after CJ Wilson?

Anyone who threw a major league pitch in 2011 is going to get an offer from the Red Sox this off-seeason.

93. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3935148)

McCarverb has been more accurate on Jeter than the haters here who have prematurely buried him at every opportunity.

94. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:04 PM (#3935151)

Every single player has choked several times during this run.

Ellsbury is the only exception I got. Papi's been pretty good, without any obvious ####### I can remember, but he gets to avoid playing the field.

95. karlmagnus Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:04 PM (#3935152)

The players are hired by the GM, not the manager. It's Theo who should go, and be replaced by his superior predecessor.

96. Bote Man Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:05 PM (#3935153)

The individual errors are on the players, but the pattern is on the manager.

I agree with this, in the main. Of course, it is up to management to identify problem areas and conduct drills to improve the performance of the players needing it, even the veterans. If Tito can't do that, then he is not effective as a manager.

And if some writer docks Ellsbury points for the Sox not making the playoffs, then that would be criminal.

97. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:05 PM (#3935154)

And now that the team is in a huge hole (again), the hitters (besides Ellsbury) are all pressing and swinging at terrible pitches.

98. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:06 PM (#3935156)

Lineup comprised entirely of players on the 40 man roster for Game One tomorrow;

CF Jacoby Ellsbury
2B Oscar Tejeda
1B Lars Anderson
C Ryan Lavarnway
RF Conor Jackson
LF Joey Gathright
DH Luis Exposito
3B Jed Lowrie
SS Jose Iglesias

99. dave h Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#3935158)

Even if the Sox make the playoffs, I think Ellsbury is losing votes. There is a stink about this team that no one wants to associate with. If they were playing even halfway decent, think about how much talk there would have been about his inside-the-parker?

100. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#3935159)

I have no skill or knowledge to manage major league baseball. I have no suggestions for the various people who might be able to do something to right this ship. But ####### someone, Terry Francona or Theo Epstein or Demarlo Hale or Jason Varitek or David Ortiz, has to ####### do ####### something.

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