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   1. Cabbage Posted: December 30, 2005 at 04:06 PM (#1799951)
It worries me when rumors persist like this for a long time. It always seems like the best trades are the ones you didn't hear about for weeks ahead of time.

BTW, the Burnitz thread in the Oracle is full of Oriole fan self-immolation that is shockingly similar to what I see for our crowd.
   2. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 04:32 PM (#1799986)
I was thinking the same thing, Cabbage.

My season ticket money's due January 16. I'm holding out until just before then, in case they do something stupid, like trade Zambrano.
   3. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 04:48 PM (#1800008)
My season ticket money's due January 16. I'm holding out until just before then, in case they do something stupid, like trade Zambrano.

Whether or not I renew mu mlb.tv deal hinges on that same contingency.

Kaplan, on WGN, is claiming that the Cubs are in negotiations for Zito, FWIW.
   4. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 30, 2005 at 04:51 PM (#1800013)
Tejeda! Tejada!
Cepeda! Cepada!

Let's call the whole thing off!
   5. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 04:53 PM (#1800016)
Let's call the whole thing off!

Hear! hear!
   6. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:00 PM (#1800022)
If a Zito deal is a precursor to trading Z or Prior, I'm going to be upset, especially considering what it'll cost to get Zito in the first place.
   7. Cabbage Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:41 PM (#1800080)
Man, Zito's Comp list is peppered with guys who were done by their early 30s. Makes sense in his case as well. His fastball and change are just average. We can expect a bit of a dip in velocity over the next few years, and unless the change improves look out. I'd suggest he do something like work on a sinker to get a little more GBish, but his pitching style isn't really condusive to that. Only way he can hang on if the fastball drops is to improve the change or add a cutter for RHB and maybe play more with the curve against lefties. Perhaps he can add a little more lateral movement on the break, or pickup a little armside action on the fastball to hold the LHB off the plate.
   8. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:46 PM (#1800089)
This story says Marquis Grissom is Wrigley-bound.
   9. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:52 PM (#1800102)
Marguis Grissom?
   10. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:53 PM (#1800108)
ugh, that's Marquis. I don't know who Marguis Grissom is.

Anyway, that seems like a weird signing for the Cubs. As Hawk Harrelson would say, "where would he play"?
   11. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1800118)
As Hawk Harrelson would say, "where would he play"?

Iowa, I hope.
   12. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:58 PM (#1800123)
Grissom's actually not a bad idea. He's a righthanded OF who can play a passable center and hit lefties, which is a fit for what the Cubs need.

Now, if he ends up playing every day, that's a problem.
   13. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 05:59 PM (#1800129)
Mind you, I'm assuming Patterson ends up traded. But Grissom strikes me as a good fit as a backup OF.
   14. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:02 PM (#1800134)
OTOH (looking at bbref), Grissom's old, and he was putrid last year. Was he injured?
   15. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:03 PM (#1800135)
Grissom's actually not a bad idea. He's a righthanded OF who can play a passable center and hit lefties, which is a fit for what the Cubs need.

One would think that Pierre's playing every day, or close to it.

I guess he could be a platoon partner for Jacque Jones, I guess.

Now, if he ends up playing every day, that's a problem.

A 39-year-old outfielder who will on occasion put together a nice hitting streak? That doesn't sound like someone that Dusty Baker would, say, put in left over Murton, does it?
   16. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:04 PM (#1800137)
Grissom's old, and he was putrid last year. Was he injured?

Yes, he missed most of the season to injury.
   17. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:05 PM (#1800139)
quoting myself -

I guess he could be a platoon partner for Jacque Jones, I guess.

God, what a horrible sentence.

I'm on a roll this morning. I need more coffee - this constant raining is making me tired.
   18. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:06 PM (#1800143)
That doesn't sound like someone that Dusty Baker would, say, put in left over Murton, does it?

No sir. Absolutely not. The thought would never, ever, occur to Dusty. Never.
   19. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:09 PM (#1800146)
I guess he could be a platoon partner for Jacque Jones, I guess.

That's what I'm thinking, though I doubt Jones will be forced into a strict platoon. But Grissom's strength (assuming he still has it) offsets what's probably the single biggest weakness of the Cub OF, which is Jones's bat against lefties.

OTOH, Dusty may see Murton's youth as the OF's single biggest weakness, which Grissom would also offset. (I'm still optimistic that Murton's the full-time LF, but we'll see.)
   20. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:10 PM (#1800151)
Unless, of course, Murton is on his way to Oakland as part of a package for Zito...
   21. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:13 PM (#1800156)
That doesn't sound like someone that Dusty Baker would, say, put in left over Murton, does it?

No sir. Absolutely not. The thought would never, ever, occur to Dusty. Never.


Well, that's the rub, but we'd have to worry about that with any player. The Cubs need a right-handed OF, and assuming his hamstring issues aren't going to re-emerge, Grissom is a nice risk. I think he can still kill lefties.

The problem: Grissom doesn't have much of an arm, and rarely has he played RF in his career. I can see Baker tending to use him in LF.
   22. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:14 PM (#1800159)
Unless, of course, Murton is on his way to Oakland as part of a package for Zito...

I'd refrained from that one, JRE, but it had crossed my mind.
   23. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:20 PM (#1800167)
Man, Zito's Comp list is peppered with guys who were done by their early 30s.

I don't know if it's a Billy Beane fanthing, but I have very little faith in Zito or Mulder seeing a great deal of success in non-A's uniforms. I'm even suspicious about Hudson, but perhaps less so.
   24. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:21 PM (#1800171)
Unless, of course, Murton is on his way to Oakland as part of a package for Zito...

Hmmm....

Imagine an OF of Marquis, Pierre and Jacque. C'est merde.
   25. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:24 PM (#1800178)
Imagine an OF of Marquis, Pierre and Jacque.

Frenvh Toast?
   26. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 06:25 PM (#1800182)
Frenvh

Screw it, you know what I mean.
   27. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 30, 2005 at 07:46 PM (#1800313)
Imagine an OF of Marquis, Pierre and Jacque.

Frenvh Toast?


Merde sur un bardeau.
   28. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: December 30, 2005 at 08:11 PM (#1800346)
I don't know if it's a Billy Beane fanthing, but I have very little faith in Zito or Mulder seeing a great deal of success in non-A's uniforms.

Maybe it's a Beane thing, but I was thinking something very similar, that this could match the Mulder deal nicely if the Cubs gave up Pie and Hill for Zito.
   29. jolietconvict Posted: December 30, 2005 at 09:27 PM (#1800411)
Rumors are also swirling that the Cubs are courting Preston Wilson.
   30. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 09:34 PM (#1800419)
Great. So we'll have an OF of Wilson, Pierre and Jones, with a rotation of Prior, Maddux, Zito, Williams and Rusch, with Tejada at short. Color me unimpressed.
   31. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: December 30, 2005 at 09:39 PM (#1800425)
Great. So we'll have an OF of Wilson, Pierre and Jones, with a rotation of Prior, Maddux, Zito, Williams and Rusch, with Tejada at short.

I thought Prior was the bait to pry Tejada away?
   32. Spahn Insane Posted: December 30, 2005 at 10:03 PM (#1800457)
Prior or Z. Rumor has it the O's prefer Z.
   33. Bunny Vincennes Posted: December 30, 2005 at 10:05 PM (#1800458)
I'm just resigned that cubs have determined themselves to suck, and that I hate my life.
   34. Neil M Posted: December 30, 2005 at 10:09 PM (#1800462)
<i>Prior or Z. Rumor has it the O's prefer Z.</i?

A story a few days back had the O's asking for both, which seemed just a tad greedy to me. Strange that they didn't ask for Neifi, though.
   35. Bunny Vincennes Posted: December 30, 2005 at 10:27 PM (#1800489)
I'd trade Prior everyday before Z. Love Z. Hate the Cubs.
   36. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: December 30, 2005 at 10:28 PM (#1800492)
Man, Zito's Comp list is peppered with guys who were done by their early 30s. Makes sense in his case as well. His fastball and change are just average. We can expect a bit of a dip in velocity over the next few years, and unless the change improves look out. I'd suggest he do something like work on a sinker to get a little more GBish, but his pitching style isn't really condusive to that. Only way he can hang on if the fastball drops is to improve the change or add a cutter for RHB and maybe play more with the curve against lefties. Perhaps he can add a little more lateral movement on the break, or pickup a little armside action on the fastball to hold the LHB off the plate.

His changeup is excellent, and he has already added a slider.
   37. Neil M Posted: December 31, 2005 at 09:40 AM (#1800954)
The Trib says the O's want Zambrano but Hendry won't deal. Also says that the Cubs aren't 'actively shopping Prior' - his name was 'brought up in discussions' with the O's.

Also, the Cubs haven't discussed Zito with Oakland since early December. And Marquis appears to be a NRI.
   38. Neil M Posted: December 31, 2005 at 11:14 AM (#1800963)
The Sun-Times says:

In fact, what Prior has been assured of behind the scenes is this important fact: The Cubs didn't offer him to the Orioles for Tejada. Major-league sources explained that the Orioles phoned Hendry and asked if he would trade Prior for Tejada. Hendry told the Orioles he wouldn't consider that one-for-one swap.

Hendry needed to get a quality pitcher in return, and the discussion went into different avenues from there. But when he asked for left-handed pitcher Erik Bedard as part of a multiplayer package, suddenly the Orioles were the ones backing away.

There remains no chance the Cubs would agree today to trade Prior for Tejada without a starting pitcher also coming to Chicago in the deal.
   39. Bunny Vincennes Posted: December 31, 2005 at 11:35 AM (#1800966)
Thanks Neil! I hope you are well!
   40. Neil M Posted: December 31, 2005 at 11:52 AM (#1800968)
I am, Jack. Hope you are, too.
   41. Bunny Vincennes Posted: December 31, 2005 at 12:43 PM (#1800975)
I am, although I'm also a damned fool for not going to bed yet.
   42. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 31, 2005 at 01:17 PM (#1800987)
And Marquis appears to be a NRI.

And not a bad one. I'd be a lot more comfortable with someone with a good throwing arm though, otherwise he's too redundant wrt Murton.
   43. Cabbage Posted: December 31, 2005 at 06:46 PM (#1801221)
His changeup is excellent, and he has already added a slider.

I'll take your word on it. I saw a couple of his outings last season, and it didn't really look THAT spectacular. Really just seemed like he was using it as a change of pace from the fastball/curve combo. Of course, I'm not much of a scout.
   44. Neil M Posted: December 31, 2005 at 08:33 PM (#1801368)
The PTBNL for Van Buren is 23-year old OF Matt Ciaramella.
   45. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: December 31, 2005 at 11:04 PM (#1801443)
Good numbers in the Sally League, but (a) not much power and (b) at 22, he *should* put up good numbers in that league.

I imagine he's headed to Daytona.
   46. Neil M Posted: December 31, 2005 at 11:41 PM (#1801461)
TCR posted some links, principally to SoSH. Ciaramella seems to be regarded as technically sound and quite smart.

His swing was described as a 'mirror image' from both sides of the plate. Though that could probably be said of Jose Macias' action, in this instance the reporter seemed to deem it to be a good thing.

Ciaramella was apparently suffering from an arm injury, sustained in college, last year but is supposedly all better now.

My thought is that he's possibly a switch-hitting version of Adam Greenberg. I don't know.

It does seem like the Cubs could have gotten more for JVB, though.
   47. Andere Richtingen Posted: January 01, 2006 at 04:01 PM (#1801750)
My thought is that he's possibly a switch-hitting version of Adam Greenberg. I don't know.

It does seem like the Cubs could have gotten more for JVB, though.


I was actually expecting them to do much worse than this. Not that Claramella is anything exciting, but I expected something far more nominal.
   48. Neil M Posted: January 01, 2006 at 04:28 PM (#1801758)
I expected something far more nominal.

At this stage, anything more than a little cash has to be welcome. I guess what I meant was that the Cubs could have struck a better deal in the first place, but it's all water under the bridge now.
   49. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 01, 2006 at 07:20 PM (#1801944)
The PTBNL for Van Buren is 23-year old OF Matt Ciaramella.

Feh

I really doubt that any Tejada trade will go through at this point. Can anyone recall a rumor that floated around for this long and eventually came true?
   50. Meatwad Posted: January 01, 2006 at 07:39 PM (#1801974)
such a pathetic offseason
   51. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: January 01, 2006 at 07:44 PM (#1801984)
Randy Johnson to the Yankees?

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