BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1921 Results: Collins and Bennett elected

Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Friday, March 12, 2004

1921 Results: Collins and Bennett elected

Jimmy Collins and Charlie Bennett are newest members of the Hall of Merit. They are two of the greatest fielders their positions have ever seen. Collins was elected in his 8th year of eligibility. Bennett, 66, has been on the ballot since 1899, and was elected in his 23rd year! Except for Bob Caruthers, all of the players ahead of him on the 1899 ballot have been inducted. Two players below Bennett on that ballot (Cal McVey & Pud Galvin) have also been elected.

Joe McGinnity flew past Bobby Wallace and is solidly entrenched in 3rd place. Grant “Home Run” Johnson, a star Negro League SS also outpointed Wallace, it was Johnson’s first year on the ballot. Wallace finished 5th.

Frank Grant, another Negro League star, finished 6th, moving past Jimmy Sheckard in the tally. Bob Caruthers moved into 8th place, swapping positions with slugger Sam Thompson. Rube Waddell edged Hughie Jennings by one point for 10th place.

Other newcomers included Roger Bresnahan in 12th place, Tommy Leach (21st) and Joe Tinker (39th).

Rk   LY  Player              Pts Bal    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 1    2  Jimmy Collins       814  47    8  9  6  4     4  1  4  1  4  4  1  1
 2    3  Charlie Bennett     701  37   13  6  2  2  2  1  3  3  2     2  1

 3    5  Joe McGinnity       659  41    4  5  3  4  7  6  2  2  1  1  1  1  2     2
 4   n/e Grant Johnson       606  39    2  5  6  5  6  2  1  1  3     1  1  1  4  1
 5    4  Bobby Wallace       587  40    4  3  1  5  6  1  2  4  4  1  1  1  2  4  1
 6    7  Frank Grant         526  36       3  5  2  6  4  4  2  1  3     3  2  1
 7    6  Jimmy Sheckard      507  36       3  3  2  3  4  8  3  3        2  2  3
 8    9  Bob Caruthers       448  29    5  2  5  1  1  4           2  2  4  1  1  1
 9    8  Sam Thompson        435  30    5  1  1  3  2  2     5  2  2  1        4  2
10   11  Rube Waddell        356  28    2     1  3  3     2  3  3  1  1  1  4  2  2
11   10  Hughie Jennings     355  26    1  2  5     2     1  1  2  3  2  4  2  1
12   n/e Roger Bresnahan     337  29       1     3     2  4  2  1     4  4  7  1
13   15  Jake Beckley        304  25       1  1        3  2  2  5  4  3  1  1  1  1
14   12  Hugh Duffy          299  24       1  2  1  2  2  3     1  1  4  3  2  1  1
15   13  Lip Pike            296  22    1  2  3  1  2        1  1  4  2  1     1  3
16   16  Dickey Pearce       275  19    1     2  6  1     1  1     3  2  1  1
17   17  Jimmy Ryan          263  24             1  1  1  1  4     4  4  4  1  3
18   14  George Van Haltren  256  24                2  4  1  1  2  2  2  2  2  1  5
19   18  Clark Griffith      212  22                   2  2  1  2     3  2  3  3  4
20   19  Bill Monroe         182  18    1              1     2  2  2  1     3  1  5
21   n/e Tommy Leach         161  17             1     1  1  1  2  1  1        3  6
22   21  Pete Browning       159  12       2        1     1  2  1  2  1        1  1
23   20  Cupid Childs        139  14          1  1              1  1  2  2  2  3  1
24   23  Frank Chance        127  11          1  1        1  1  1  2  1     1  1  1
25   24  Mickey Welch        116   8       2        1     2              2  1
26   25  Addie Joss           94   8                   2     2  1  1     1        1
27   22  Vic Willis           83   9             1              1  1     1  1  2  2
28   27  Charley Jones        60   5                   1  2        1              1
29   26  Jim McCormick        50   5                      1     1        1  1  1
30   28  John McGraw          48   4    1                          1           1  1
31   35  Herman Long          37   4                            1        1  2
32   31  Harry Wright         31   2             1        1
33T  30  Ed Williamson        27   3                            1           1  1
33T  33  Lave Cross           27   3                            1           1  1
35   29  Fielder Jones        21   3                                        1  1  1
36   32  Sol White            18   2                                     2
37   34  Tony Mullane         17   1.5                    1                       0.5
38   36  Jim Whitney          15   1                   1
39   n/e Joe Tinker           14   1.5                             1              0.5
40   37T Denny Lyons          12   1                            1
41T  41  Deacon Phillippe     10   1                                  1
41T  43T Mike Tiernan         10   1                                  1
41T  43T Cy Seymour           10   1                                  1
44   39  Levi Meyerle          8   1                                        1
45T  43T Bobby Mathews         7   1                                           1
45T  --  Harry Davis           7   1                                           1
47T  42  Roy Thomas            6   1                                              1
47T  43T Silver King           6   1                                              1
47T  43T Deacon McGuire        6   1                                              1
Dropped Out: Tom York (37T), Mike Griffin (40)

JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: March 12, 2004 at 07:35 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

1. Marc Posted: March 12, 2004 at 02:46 PM (#522878)

This was a fun one. If my crystal ball is at all perceptive, the following are "likely" to gain election by 1932 unless there are major flip-flops. McGinnity becomes a heavy fave to be the next backlogger to win, whith Johnson and Wallace in the next "cluster."

Joe McGinnity (9 bonus positions minus 7 missed ballots = +2)

2. MattB Posted: March 12, 2004 at 02:55 PM (#522879)

What impressed me here was that Bennett was elected despite being omitted from ELEVEN ballots! That is likely a record by a large margin (remember when there was criticism after the first ballot for Ross Barnes being elected despite not being named on one ballot?)

Only three of the carryovers managed to be omitted on fewer than 10 ballots.

This indicates to me that as the talent pool flattens out players with a few strong supporters will start moving ahead of players with broader, but shallower support.

3. Marc Posted: March 12, 2004 at 03:54 PM (#522880)

MattB, I'm sure you're right to some degree. My analysis showing that McG is the only carryover with more bonus positions than missed ballots supports your point.

But I don't think guys like Lip Pike and Dickey Pearce are a threat (though I have voted for both of them many, many times). Both won more top 2/top 3 votes than guys ahead of them in the final ranking, but they missed too many ballots. Or, Caruthers has 7 top 2 and 12 top 3 ballots, but finished behind Sheckard (3 top 2/6 top 3) and Grant (3/8).

I agree that support among the "backlog," as it evolves over the years, will be very flat at times, but I think "a few" supporters will never be enough. All the more reason why our 2 week cycle with lots and lots of discussion is such an important part of the process. I think our votes would be much more scattered without all the discussion.

4. Marc Posted: March 12, 2004 at 04:18 PM (#522881)

Another interesting perspective (well, to me) is how many points/ballot.

1. Bennett (#2 overall) 18.9

5. Howie Menckel Posted: March 12, 2004 at 08:47 PM (#522883)

There's a point at which I'd like to see a guy get in, even if I'm not really a "friend of" his (see Bennett, Charlie). Maybe it's that "I'm tired of hearing about them" thing, but I'd like to see Grant get in soon.

6. MattB Posted: March 12, 2004 at 09:33 PM (#522884)

I'm with Howie.

I know we can't conspire, but it sure would be great if in, say, 1958 when we are electing three players and there's no great new names, we could all simultaneously "discover" the greatness Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, and Bob Caruthers and some other 19th century player who's been on a ballot 60 times already and put them all in at once.

7. Howie Menckel Posted: March 12, 2004 at 10:05 PM (#522885)

Well, I didn't "help" Bennett get in even last year, when I had him around 6th or 7th. But part of me was thrilled not to have to see his name any (much) longer..

8. Marc Posted: March 12, 2004 at 11:21 PM (#522886)

Based on Howie's numbers on the 1922 ballot thread, HoMers have played the following numbers of games by position. (I rounded each individual, so this is approx. Also I put all of each OFers' games at their primary position, so those are really approx. I don't think they mis-state the LF emphasis at all, however. At every other position Howie had the full breakout for everybody with 200 games at the position. So these numbers are close enough for baseball.)

C- 3100

9. jimd Posted: March 13, 2004 at 12:37 AM (#522887)

Nice post, Marc.

I was unaware of your post when I posted the exact numbers (from the Lahman database) on the 1922 thread in response to Howie's post.

Missing from Howie's numbers (i.e., below his 200 limit, or breakdowns by OF position):

3156 Ca: Anson 105, misc 10 (10 Homers played at C)

10. Marc Posted: March 13, 2004 at 01:29 AM (#522888)

jimd, a better post. I am too lazy to be exact. I think the exact numbers support my general point. I underestimated several positions by not including the "misc," but mainly I underestimated 2B, 3B, CF and RF by more than 10 percent. But my conclusion that no position is truly underrepresented is even stronger since those positions are better represented than I thought.

The point re. LF remains. I think we were very generous to Kelley and Stovey (I am holding back on O'Rourke in light of the competition he bested) in comparison to, say, a 2B. I can't say C, because who would that be? Deacon McGuire, I guess, or John Clapp. But considering the wear and tear of the position another 2B or 3B would seem to be called for in place of Kelley and Stovey.

But again, I'm not really sure anybody is underrepresented, but that LF is overrepresented.

11. Howie Menckel Posted: March 13, 2004 at 01:33 AM (#522889)

Geesh, I feel like the kid's whose all proud of his kazoo recital performance - until Jimi Hendrix III comes up next and brings down the house in the auditorium with his version of "The Star-Spangled Banner."

good work, guys..

12. Howie Menckel Posted: March 13, 2004 at 01:33 AM (#522890)

Geesh, I feel like the kid whose all proud of his kazoo recital performance - until Jimi Hendrix III comes up next and brings down the house in the auditorium with his version of "The Star-Spangled Banner."

good work, guys..

13. Howie Menckel Posted: March 13, 2004 at 01:36 AM (#522891)

AND one more time, getting rid of the last typo:

Geesh, I feel like the kid who's all proud of his kazoo recital performance - until Jimi Hendrix III comes up next and brings down the house in the auditorium with his electric-guitar version of "The Star-Spangled Banner."

good work, guys.... and way for me to step on a punchline

14. jimd Posted: March 13, 2004 at 01:57 AM (#522892)

Howie, you're our inspiration. I was surprised at the large number of "missing" games between the grand-totals and your lists (1922 thread), and investigated further using the database. Guys moved around the diamond a lot, didn't they.

15. Paul Wendt Posted: March 13, 2004 at 04:25 AM (#522893)

Marc #11

16. Sean Gilman Posted: March 13, 2004 at 04:52 AM (#522894)

The 1921 HOM game is an all-St. Louis affair as Branch Rickey's Cardinals, led by Rogers Hornsby, Jack Fournier and starting pitcher Bill Doak take on Lee Fohl's Browns featuring George Sisler, Ken Williams, Baby Doll Jacobson, and starter Urban Shocker.

http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=13642417&ad=1

17. Marc Posted: March 13, 2004 at 05:00 AM (#522895)

>his raw statistical record is distorted by the high number of

18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 13, 2004 at 05:51 AM (#522896)

Look at O'Rourke's career pattern and you will see another reason to leave him out of this discussion. He was in LF after most of his cohort was in the stands, retired; his raw statistical record is distorted by the high number of games in a season around 1990, when he was around 40 years old.

O'Rourke really had the most value as a centerfielder.

19. MattB Posted: March 15, 2004 at 02:55 PM (#522898)

I also believe that 13 different players getting first place votes is a new record.

20. Jeff M Posted: March 15, 2004 at 04:54 PM (#522899)

I may have missed someone else making this comment, but Bennett is the electee who has received the least overall support from the electorate (i.e., points per eligible balloter). Stovey is close behind.

21. jimd Posted: March 15, 2004 at 05:22 PM (#522900)

Trivia: can you name the 3 HOMers that never played RF?

Answer: Barnes, Wright, and Young.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

<< Back to main

Friday, March 12, 2004

1921 Results: Collins and Bennett elected

Reader Comments and Retorts

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

Bookmarks

Hot Topics

Syndicate