BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1923 Results: Wagner Second Unanimous Winner

Hall of Merit
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Thursday, April 08, 2004

1923 Results: Wagner Second Unanimous Winner

Honus Wagner has become the second player to receive every first place vote (48), joining Cy Young (elected in 1917) as a member of this select group.

Part of one of the strongest first-year eligible classes ever, Sam Crawford (908 points) and Eddie Plank (799) finished 2nd and 3rd.

The top returning candidate, Mordecai Brown slipped from 3rd to 4th. Grant Johnson and Joe McGinnity also held their relative positions when compared to the returnees, slipping to 5th and 6th, respectively.

Frank Grant moved past Bobby Wallace into 7th place. Jimmy Sheckard finished 9th and Sam Thompson rounded out the top 10.

Rk   LY  Player               Pts Bal    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 1  n/e  Honus Wagner       1152  48    48
 2  n/e  Sam Crawford        908  48       45  1  2
 3  n/e  Eddie  Plank        799  47          26  9  6  3  1     1  1
 4    3  Mordecai Brown      597  44           5  3  5  7  6  5  2  3  1  3  1  2  1
 5    4  Grant Johnson       580  40           2  8  4 11  7  1  2  1  1  1     2   
 6    5  Joe  McGinnity      512  40           1  6  4  3  2  5  5  3  5  2  2  1  1
 7    7  Frank  Grant        458  35.3            3  6  3  7  4  3  2     2  3  2   .3
 8    6  Bobby  Wallace      448  36           3  4  2  1  5  5  3  1  3  1  3  4  1
 9    8  Jimmy Sheckard      394  32.5            2  3  6  1  3  5  2  4  1  2  1  2.5
10    9  Sam Thompson        367  29           1  5  3  1  2  3  3  3  4        1  3
11   10  Bob Caruthers       330  28        2  2  3  2        3  1  1  2  4  2  3  3
12   16  Dickey Pearce       259  19           1  1  6  2  1  2     2  2  1     1   
13   17  Lip Pike            236  18           4  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  2   
14   12  Jake Beckley        222  22                    2     1  4  2  4  3  2  2  2
15   13  Hughie Jennings     220  21        1  1     1  1  2        2  2  3  1  5  2
16   19  Jimmy Ryan          214  23                    2  1  1  2  2  2  1  2  6  4
17   11  Rube Waddell        205  19              1        1  2  1  7  2     4  1   
18   18  George Van Haltren  201  19                       4  2  2  2  1  3  2  2  1
19   15  Hugh Duffy          179  17.5                     3  2  1  1  3  2  3  1  1.5
20   14  Roger Bresnahan     174  19.5               1     1  1  1     2  2  6     5.5
21  n/e  Rube Foster         138  12                    2  1  3  1     2  1     2   
22   20  Clark Griffith      123  14                          1  2  1  1  2  1  3  3
23   22  Pete Browning       121  11                 1  1     1  1  3     2  1     1
24   21  Bill Monroe          83   8.5                  1        1  1  1  2  1     1.5
25   24  Mickey Welch         79   7              1  1           2           2     1
26   23  Tommy Leach          77   9                             1     2  2  1  1  2
27   26  Cupid Childs         58   6.3                  1           1     1  1  1  1.3
28   29  Charley Jones        54   6                             1  2        1     2
29   27  Addie Joss*          52   6                                2        3     1
30   25  Frank Chance         52   6                          1     1     1     1  2
31   33  John McGraw          45   4                 1              1     2         
32   34  Lave Cross           36   4                             1        2        1 
33   31  Ed Williamson        32   4                                   1     1  2   
34   30  Jim McCormick        26   3                                   1  1     1   
35   35  Harry Wright         24   2                       1           1            
36  n/e  Johnny Evers         21   2                          1              1      
37   28  Vic Willis           14   1                       1                        
38   36  Fielder Jones        13   2                                            1  1
39   37  Jim Whitney          12   1                             1                  
40   40  Silver King           9   1                                      1         
41   41T Fred Dunlap*          8   1.3                                             1.3
42   32  Herman Long           8   1                                         1      
43T  41T Sol White             6   1                                               1
43T  --  Charlie Buffinton     6   1                                               1
* - won tie-breaker
Dropped  Out: Tony Mullane (38), Denny Lyons (39), Fred Dunlap (41T),
Deacon Phillippe (44).

JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: April 08, 2004 at 07:43 AM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. Marc Posted: April 08, 2004 at 02:47 PM (#523667)

Joe, your headline that starts "Wagner second" sure caught my attention!

Oh, my! Look at two of my old faves--Pike and Pearce--moving up 5 slots each! Too bad they're still below the magic number of backloggers (8 to 10) who seem slotted in to win in the drought years through 1932! If my calc. are correct, the backloggers who stand to get elected are unchanged except for one minor change of order--Crawford, Plank, Brown, Johnson, McGinnity, Grant, Wallace, Sheckard, Thompson, Caruthers. If only eight make it, scratch Big Sam and Parisian Bob. Actually you could say that 1924 will NOT really be a backlog year either the way it is setting up.

If there is one thing I would urge re. the backlog it is that everybody take one more good long look at HR Johnson, Frank Grant and Bill Monroe. I'm not convinced that Johnson is the right guy though all three have been and are likely to continue to be on my ballot, at least for a while.

In the OF I really believe we've got the right guys. At pitcher, I'm a peak guy and Plank doesn't do well, but still I can hardly complain about 326 career wins. And Wallace... I like Bobby but if it came down to him as the very tenth and last backlogger in 1932, I obviously would go with Pearce, Pike or Jennings.

But seriously, at least read back through the Negro League thread and see what you think about Johnson, Grant and Monroe. I think Monroe got slighted a bit.

Interesting that the guys moving up are old-timers and Negro Leaguers, while the guys moving down are more recent 20th century major leaguers. We seem to still have a tendency to overrate guys in their first ballot year and then to correct.

2. MattB Posted: April 08, 2004 at 03:06 PM (#523669)

Interesting that the guys moving up are old-timers and Negro Leaguers, while the guys moving down are more recent 20th century major leaguers. We seem to still have a tendency to overrate guys in their first ballot year and then to correct.

I think a better way to look at it is that support among timeliners will necessarily be weak, since each year will bring in new players who played more recently, so will deserve knock down last years' players. Non-timeliners don't care about that, so let their top picks stay on top. No one who is voting for Pike and Pearce timelines to any significant extent, so they will not drop down. The Wallace and Sheckard voters who have a stronger timeline will drop them down each time a comparable player comes by who played 5 or 10 years later.

3. MattB Posted: April 08, 2004 at 03:07 PM (#523670)

Also, was Eddie Plank really omitted from a ballot.

I wasn't reading closely, but I recall that one voter omitted him by accident and then corrected.

4. PhillyBooster Posted: April 08, 2004 at 03:10 PM (#523671)

Also, in recognition of my new Phillies website (homepage link) that I have been working on for the past couple of months, taking time away my posting on this board, I (MattB) will now be posting solely as PhillyBooster.

5. Marc Posted: April 08, 2004 at 03:41 PM (#523672)

>Also, was Eddie Plank really omitted from a ballot.

Well, um, er, ah, that was me. I'll put something on the pitcher's thread about that, but he looks like a shoo-in in '24 regardless, and I won't complain. He is a legit choice. But I'm more of a peak/prime guy and by my method he trails Brown, McG, Caruthers and others.

6. Rick A. Posted: April 08, 2004 at 08:21 PM (#523673)

Just a thought. Maybe we should post in Clutch Hits when a really great and highly thought player (Wagner, Ruth, T. Williams, Mays, W. Johnson, etc.) is elected. That way, people outside this project can see where we are in history, talk about these great players (since they'll be near unanimous, we really don't discuss them much), and we'll increase our visibility, and maybe draw more voters.

7. PhillyBooster Posted: April 08, 2004 at 08:24 PM (#523674)

Great idea. I wonder what Admiral Ackbar, Randal, and Piazza will think of our progress so far.

If we're going to go to a registration site within the next week or so, I'd wait until then.

8. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 08, 2004 at 08:28 PM (#523675)

Just a thought. Maybe we should post in Clutch Hits when a really great and highly thought player (Wagner, Ruth, T. Williams, Mays, W. Johnson, etc.) is elected.

Joe used to create a thread after very election, but it's been a while since the last one.

BTW, Dickey Pearce is still making his inexorable climb to the top!

9. Rick A. Posted: April 08, 2004 at 08:36 PM (#523676)

Joe used to create a thread after very election, but it's been a while since the last one.

Well, maybe not after every election, but I could go with the unanimous, or near unanimous, selections

10. Marc Posted: April 08, 2004 at 09:55 PM (#523677)

I think it would be much more fun to post the backloggers.

11. Marc Posted: April 08, 2004 at 10:09 PM (#523678)

>No one who is voting for Pike and Pearce timelines to any

12. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: April 08, 2004 at 11:14 PM (#523679)

Maybe post a link when the HoM elects its first Negro Leaguer?

13. KJOK Posted: April 16, 2004 at 08:19 PM (#523680)

Using OWP, playing time, and defense (Win Shares/BP) for position players, applied to .500 baseline. Using Runs Saved Above Average and Support Neutral Fibonacci Wins for Pitchers.

1. SAM CRAWFORD, RF. .686 OWP, 401 RCAP, 10,596 PA?s. Def: AVERAGE.

2. MORDACAI BROWN, P. 295 RSAA, 282 Neut. Fib. Wins, 138 ERA+. Certainly benefited from good defense behind him, but '06-'10 Cubs were the BEST EVER at preventing runs, and I think some people are forgetting that fielding measures are MUCH LESS ACCURATE than batting ones, so pitchers probably deserve SOME of that credit too! Better pitcher than Walsh, Radbourn, & Galvin.

3. EDDIE PLANK, P. 278 RSAA, 288 Neut. Fib. Wins, 122 ERA+.

4. JOHN McGRAW, 3B. .727 OWP. 459 RCAP. 4,909 PAs. Def: AVERAGE. Similar to Lajoie except only 60% of RCAP, but 60% of Lajoie is still excellent. He didn?t have a long career, but he?s being discounted for low playing time way too much as he provided more value in those few appearances than all of his contemporary 3rd baseman. When he retired, he ranked 12TH all-time in Plate Appearances by 3rd basemen:

14. KJOK Posted: April 16, 2004 at 08:28 PM (#523681)

We really need a delete post button. ;>)

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1923 Results: Wagner Second Unanimous Winner

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