BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1925 Results

Hall of Merit
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Sunday, May 16, 2004

1925 Results - First Negro Leaguer Elected

The Hall of Merit has elected Grant Johnson and Mordecai Brown. Johnson is the first Negro Leaguer to honored.

Johnson edged Brown 780-766 in the voting. Joe McGinnity finished 3rd with 633 points. Bobby Wallace edged Frank Grant for 4th by one point (603-602) and newcomer Sherry Magee was right behind them in 6th with 587 points.

Jimmy Sheckard, Sam Thompson, Bob Caruthers and Dickey Pearce rounded out the top 10.

RK   LY  Player             PTS Bal     1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 1    4  Home Run Johnson   780  44     8  8  6  5  4  1  2  2  3  1     2     1  1
 2    3  Three Finger Brown 766  45     7  5  7  5  3  3  3  5  3  2        1     1
 3    5  Joe McGinnity      633  41     2  5  1  5  6  5  3  5  3  3           2  1
 4    7  Bobby Wallace      603  39     5  4  2  5  3  2  4     3  3  2  2  2  1  1
 5    6  Frank Grant        602  39     3  3  6  8  3     2  2  1  3  3  2  1  2
 6   n/e Sherry Magee       587  39     2  5  3  1  4  4  8  2  1  2  2  2     1  2
 7    8  Jimmy Sheckard     516  37        2  6  3  1  7  3  3  2     3  2  2  2  1
 8    9  Sam Thompson       467  31     5  2  2  4  1  3  2     1  3  1  1  3  2  1
 9   10  Bob Caruthers      459  34     3  3  1  3  2  1     3  2  3  4  3  1  1  4
10   11  Dickey Pearce      426  26     2  5  3  2  2  3     4  1     1  2        1
11   12  Lip Pike           374  25     5  1  2        2  3  5        2  2  1     2
12   18  George Van Haltren 294  27        1     2  1  2  2  1  1  1  3  3  3  4  3
13   13  Jake Beckley       288  22           1  1  3  4  2  4     2  2  1     2
14   16  Jimmy Ryan         278  26           1     1  2  1     5  2  2  7  1  3  1
15   14  Rube Waddell       268  23        1  1     2     2     6  3  1     4  2  1
16   15  Hughie Jennings    229  20     1     1  2        1  1  1  3  3  1  1  4  1
17   19  Roger Bresnahan    227  20     1     1     2  1  2     1  2  1  1  4  1  3
18   17  Hugh Duffy         213  20              1  2  2     1        5  5  1     3
19   20  Clark Griffith     196  19              1  1     1  1  3     3     7  2
20   21  Bill Monroe        167  13     1  1        1     1  2  1  1  1  1  1  2
21   22  Pete Browning      158  12           2        2  2  3        1  1        1
22   25  Mickey Welch       143  12     1  1           2        2        1     3  2
23   23  Rube Foster        134  12                 2     1  1  1  2     2  2  1
24   26  Tommy Leach        122  15                       1     1  1  1  1  2  2  6
25   24  Cupid Childs       122  13           1           1     2  1        3  1  4
26   27  Charley Jones      113   9              1  2        1  1  1  2     1
27   28  Ed Williamson      103  12                    1           1     4  2  1  3
28   29  Addie Joss          94   8     1                 1        3  1        1  1
29   34  Fielder Jones       55   6                             2        2     1  1
30   30  John McGraw         54   4     1                             3
31   31  Frank Chance        41   4                          1  1     1           1
32   33  Vic Willis          37   4                 1                          3
33   32  Lave Cross          38   2                 1              2
34   35  Harry Wright        36   2        1                 1
35   36  Jim McCormick       32   4                                1        1  1  1
36   39  Tommy Bond          22   2                    1                       1
37   37  Herman Long         19   2                                1        1
38   38  Silver King         11   1                                1
39T  --  Tom York             8   1                                         1
39T  41T Tony Mullane         8   1                                         1
39T  40  Sol White            8   1                                         1
42   --  Levi Meyerle         7   1                                            1
43   41T Mike Tiernan         6   1                                               1
Dropped Out: Fred Dunlap (41T), Johnny Evers (41T).

JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: May 16, 2004 at 05:43 AM | 23 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 16, 2004 at 03:21 PM (#630778)

Johnson is the first Negro Leaguer to honored.

Frank Grant may be next unless Joe Jackson oozes ahead of him...

... and Dickey Pearce still makes his inexorable climb to the top! :-) Dickey had seven more fans than the week before (so did Van Haltren).

Van Haltren made a big move up in the rankings(and will gain six more votes from me this week).

2. Dag Nabbit: Sockless Psychopath Posted: May 16, 2004 at 04:15 PM (#630802)

Sixteen different players received a first place vote. Dang! Ten of them got multiple votes for first. And no players made all (of the 47) ballots.

Wonder what it'll look like by '32?

3. sunnyday2 Posted: May 16, 2004 at 05:53 PM (#630873)

First, Johnson's election deserves a Clutch Hit if there still is such a thing! I am satisfied that we got the right guy at #1 though obviously Grant could have gone in earlier because he was eligible earlier. But congrats to Joe D. for setting up a project that can arrive at such a solid decision, even though (or especially because) it would have seemed so unlikely at the beginning. I would just ask Grant's fan to give Bill Monroe another look!

Second, based on the '26 discussion I don't think Joe is going to make it. The Iron Guy looks good but the race for second place looks...well, the suspense is terrible! I hope it will last! (And no electronic vote counting! This is much too important.) I agree with Joe, Grant's 6 3rd place votes, threatening to become bonus votes, make him the early fave over Sherry.

Third, no significant change among the contenders. I still see 8 or 9 of this backlog making it by '32. The big wild cards in that are Hill and Poles, well, and Hooper, I guess, though I don't personally consider him a challenger on my ballot. But given his career WS I can certainly see a career voter, especially if he is also a timeliner, going for Harry. Whether Pearce and Pike can make enough ballots, though, remains to be seen. 25-26 will not do it, even in '32. I would also just respectfully ask everybody if we have finished our work on the 19th century, because after '32, well, we may be finished. with it.Õ

4. sunnyday2 Posted: May 16, 2004 at 06:00 PM (#630885)

PS. On that last thought, to be more specific--I would ask maybe that you consider the impact that Lip Pike and Ed Williamson had on team success, and if anybody who supports Lip (which I do) might not like Ed a little bit, too.

5. Michael Bass Posted: May 16, 2004 at 06:15 PM (#630904)

I always enjoy these posts most of all, seeing who has momentum and who does not. I'm a stat/math geek at heart.

I actually think Magee will edge out Grant for the 2nd slot in this election. While Grant does have the edge in 3rd/4th votes, there are a few voters who start all of the somewhat less the obvious players off low on their ballots to be cautious and get a feel for them, then move them up as warranted. I know on my ballot, Magee is moving up 2 slots relative to returners, and I suspect I'm not alone there. I say all this as one of the 3 Grant first place voters.

When does Pop Lloyd make his appearance on the ballot? Depending on how soon that comes, he could definately bump Grant from the second Negro Leaguer inducted status, as I have to think he's gonna be an easy first-ballot induction.

6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 16, 2004 at 06:15 PM (#630907)

The big wild cards in that are Hill and Poles, well, and Hooper, I guess, though I don't personally consider him a challenger on my ballot. But given his career WS I can certainly see a career voter, especially if he is also a timeliner, going for Harry.

Hooper was much better than I was giving him credit for before this project started, but I don't see him making my ballot.

First, Johnson's election deserves a Clutch Hit if there still is such a thing!

Seconded!

7. DavidFoss Posted: May 16, 2004 at 07:31 PM (#631057)

Hooper is the answer to one of my favorite trivia questions. He is one of 9 non-yankees to have played on four World Series winners (must have appeared in a WS game to count).

He is one of only two to have done so for the same franchise... and the only one to achieve this in the same franchise/city (major hint on the second of the two).

8. DavidFoss Posted: May 16, 2004 at 07:41 PM (#631084)

Pop Lloyd is eligible after the gap. I think its 1924... the same year as Cobb, Speaker, Collins and I believe Torriente. Not so easy of a first ballot selection, but in any other year I would certainly agree.

9. Sean Gilman Posted: May 16, 2004 at 08:32 PM (#631165)

This year's HOM Game is an All-Pennsylvania fight between the Philadelphia Athletics and the Pittsburgh Pirates:

http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=14768143&ad=1

10. TheGoodSamaritan Posted: May 17, 2004 at 01:34 AM (#631355)

Regarding DavidFoss' trivia, would it be Don Drysdale or Sandy Koufax as one of the only two aside from Hooper?

As for the others from the top of my head, I think Eddie Collins is one... the immortal Stuffy McInnis... Gene Tenace... Johnny Evers?... Lonnie Smith? was he there when the Braves finally won it?... Geez, I could think of a lot of 3 time winners from the top of my head -- Rose, Morgan, Bando, Rudi, Speaker, Musial...

BTW the "New Eligibles by Year" link doesn't work.

11. sunnyday2 Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:03 AM (#631366)

David is almost correct but for an obvious typo. Pop Lloyd is eligible in the huge year of 1934 along with, yes, Cobb, Speaker, Collins, Torriente AND Smokey Joe Williams. End of drought.

By 1933 (Walter Johnson and very possible Zack Wheat), there will surely be at least one more but probably two or three more Negro Leaguers from among Grant, Hill, Poles, catchers Petway and Santop and several others. Chris Cobb is going to have an "official" list here pretty quick and I hope we can get bios of some of the guys that we don't yet know much about.

I would go so far, in fact, as to say that during the so-called drought of 1924-32 the Negro League eligibles are stronger than the MLers. Heck, we could have a half dozen Negro Leaguers by 1933.@

12. TheGoodSamaritan Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:12 AM (#631370)

No, make that Jim Gilliam, I knew it was one of the Dodger players.

13. TheGoodSamaritan Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:33 AM (#631377)

As for Pop Lloyd, how old is he at 1934? I thought that there was a rule for old Negro league players.

14. Chris Cobb Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:54 AM (#631390)

Good Samaritan,

Lloyd will be 50 years young on April 25, 1934.

The rule for Negro-League players is that they become eligible after turning 45 unless they are still active at that age. If they are still active after 45, they become eligible after being retired for a full year. Lloyd's last season will be 1932. After being retired in 1933, he will become eligible in 1934.

15. PhillyBooster Posted: May 17, 2004 at 03:27 AM (#631407)

I would also just respectfully ask everybody if we have finished our work on the 19th century, because after '32, well, we may be finished with it.

I'm not at all convinced that if, by 1932, a Pike or Pearce or Beckley has only climbed up to 3rd place that they'll soon drop off of the ballot altogether.

There may be a few strong years coming up, but we also electing players at almost twice the rate we have been in the first part of the century, so we'll burn through the great players faster. When it becomes an issue of the 30th best player of the 1930s versus the 20th best of the 1890s, or the 5th best of the 1870s, I think some of the top carryovers will get another chance.

16. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2004 at 05:39 AM (#631477)

Here are the seven multi-franchise players:

Jack Barry
Frankie Frisch
Larry Gardner
Gene Tenace
Stuffy McInnis
Eddie Collins
Amos Strunk

You were close with Koufax & Drysdale, but they never appeared in the 1955 series. It is one of their teammates.

Anyhow, amazing that the Red Sox turned over their whole roster -- save Hooper -- between their 1912 & 1918 championships and still won two rings in between.

17. TheGoodSamaritan Posted: May 17, 2004 at 03:36 PM (#631631)

yeah thanks DavidFoss, I got that Dodger teammate in post #12 above. Gilliam was my 4th choice after Drysdale, Koufax and Johnny Podres.
I thought of Frisch after I posted my guesses, but I don't think I could have ever gotten Strunk, Barry and Gardner. It is interesting that no pitchers made the list. I guess that there is a lot of 3 time WS non-Yankees winning pitchers but no 4 timer.
Harry Hooper for the HoM!

18. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: May 17, 2004 at 05:43 PM (#631821)

I posted this in the Lounge today, and figured that I'd stick it here as well:

In response to Miserlou (#10) regarding HoFers and World Series teams, I'll offer up a similar exercise using the Hall of Merit, going up to 1911.

1871 Philadelphia Athletics 0%. The only player of note is Levi Meyerle, who's gotten a few votes now and then, but has almost no serious support.

1885-1887 St. Louis Browns (AA) 50%. The only person who has a chance is Bob Caruthers, and I don't think anyone involved in the voting would try to predict which side of the line he'll ultimately fall on. Tip O'Neill, Dave Foutz, and Silver King (1887) have also gotten a few votes.

1888 St. Louis Browns (AA) 0%. No Caruthers around this time.

1889 Brooklyn Bridegrooms (AA) 50% Caruthers again.

1890 Louisville Colonels (AA) 0% The best hitter? Jimmy Wolf. The best pitcher? Scott Stratton. I never heard of them either.

1890 Brooklyn Bridegrooms (NL) 50% Bob makes one more appearance as the team switches leagues.

1901 Chicago White Sox. 25% Clark Griffith is the serious candidate, and he's a long shot. Fielder Jones and Dummy Hoy have also shown up in the voting.

Every other team up to 1911 is represented, and I'm not willing to predict what will happen with players who haven't appeared on the ballot yet.

19. jimd Posted: May 17, 2004 at 10:45 PM (#632291)

I actually think Magee will edge out Grant for the 2nd slot in this election.

Unless Magee falls victim to the "shiny new toy" effect. There's been a tendency to overrate players their first time on the ballot. Some past examples of this include:
1899: Harry Stovey debuted in 5th ahead of 7 players who made the HOM before Harry made it in 1916.
1902: Sam Thompson debuted in 9th ahead of 4 players who are now in.
1905: Bid McPhee debuted in 4th ahead of 3 players who made it before Bid in 1913.
1920: Bobby Wallace debuted in 4th and is now behind McGinnity and Grant.

20. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: May 18, 2004 at 04:06 AM (#632568)

I've updated the thread to include Patrick W's vote. I did this for two reasons:

1) He intended to vote, and I screwed up not posting it.

2) One of the reasons for releasing the full tally is so we know where candidates stand. Obviously Patrick is intending to vote again this year, so including his vote makes this more indicative of where the group is at this time.

21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 18, 2004 at 05:37 AM (#632613)

Joe:

Patrick W's ballot was included so you need to change the numbers back.

22. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 18, 2004 at 05:47 AM (#632617)

... or maybe you didn't. I remember seeing his ballot at the end of the '25 thread but I guess it was never added.

Nevermind. :-)

23. Patrick W Posted: May 18, 2004 at 11:47 AM (#632648)

Thanks Joe.

I know the problem only occured because of the server issues, nothing more. Much appreciation for your efforts on this project.

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Sunday, May 16, 2004

1925 Results - First Negro Leaguer Elected

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