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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, October 26, 20041937 Election Results: Heilmann and Torriente Become the Hall of Merit’s Newest Members!Tiger slugging star Harry Heilmann earned the most points this election to become inducted into the Hall of Merit in only his second year of eligibility. In his fourth year of eligibility, Negro League talent Cristóbal Torriente comfortably snatched the second spot for HoM induction. He has the honor of being the seventh Negro Leaguer to gain immortality so far. Heinie Groh and Stan Coveleski should follow in Heilmann’s and Torriente’s footsteps next “year.” Nobody else were close to them during the election and they will face a weak group in ‘38. Rounding out the top ten were returnees Max Carey, Lip Pike, Jake Beckley, Hughie Jennings, Rube Waddell and George Sisler (he switched spots with the faltering George Van Haltren this “year”). RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 3 Harry Heilmann 1131 52 19 20 5 3 2 1 1 1 2 4 Cristóbal Torriente 1101 51 22 15 4 5 2 1 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 5 Heinie Groh 650 47 2 7 5 6 5 3 2 1 3 3 4 2 3 1 4 6 Stan Coveleski 605 45 5 5 8 4 4 3 3 2 3 2 2 1 3 5 8 Max Carey 455 34 3 6 1 3 1 2 1 3 3 1 3 3 3 1 6 9 Lip Pike 414 28 2 1 5 2 5 3 2 1 4 2 1 7 7 Jake Beckley 389 27 1 2 1 5 2 3 1 1 2 5 1 1 1 1 8 12 Hughie Jennings 357 25 3 1 1 3 1 4 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 9 11 Rube Waddell 328 27 1 1 1 4 2 3 4 2 3 2 1 3 10 14 George Sisler 327 25 1 1 2 4 3 4 1 2 2 1 1 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 13 Clark Griffith 322 27 1 2 4 1 1 3 3 2 2 3 1 1 3 12 15 Mickey Welch 319 20 2 3 4 1 3 2 3 1 1 13 16 Pete Browning 291 20 1 1 6 3 1 1 1 2 3 1 14 10 George Van Haltren 288 23 4 2 3 1 1 2 3 2 3 2 15 17 Cupid Childs 285 26 1 4 1 2 1 2 3 3 3 3 3 16 18 Hugh Duffy 257 21 1 3 1 1 2 4 3 4 1 1 17 n/e Edd Roush 247 22 1 5 4 3 5 3 1 18 n/e Cannonball Dick Redding 243 24 2 1 3 4 3 2 6 2 1 19 19 Roger Bresnahan 216 21 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 2 5 2 20 21 Tommy Leach 209 19 1 4 3 1 2 2 3 2 1 21 22 José Méndez 191 18 1 1 1 1 2 3 2 2 2 1 2 22 20 Jimmy Ryan 172 14 2 1 1 4 1 2 1 2 23 n/e Wally Schang 147 14 1 2 2 1 1 3 2 2 24 23 Charley Jones 144 11 1 1 1 3 1 1 2 1 25 25 Larry Doyle 134 10 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 26 26 Harry Hooper 113 11 2 2 1 1 1 1 3 27 24 Bill Monroe 110 10 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 28 29T Carl Mays 95 10 4 1 1 1 2 1 29 31 Bobby Veach 88 9 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 30 28 John McGraw 73 5 1 1 2 1 31 27 Ben Taylor 72 6 1 1 2 1 1 32 29T Addie Joss 60 6 1 1 1 1 2 33 38 George J. Burns 57 6 2 1 1 2 34 34 Vic Willis 55 6 1 3 1 1 35 36 Fielder Jones 55 5 1 2 1 1 36 33 Urban Shocker 53 6 1 1 2 1 1 37 32 Spotswood Poles 53 4 1 2 1 38 40 Ed Cicotte 50 5 1 1 1 1 1 39 37 Frank Chance 50 4 1 1 1 1 40 39 Ed Williamson 44 5 1 2 1 1 41 35 Gavy Cravath 44 4 1 1 1 1 42 43 Dave Bancroft 28 4 1 2 1 43 n/e Ed Konetchy 26 3 1 1 1 44 42 Wilbur Cooper 24 2 1 1 45 44T Ray Schalk 21 2 1 1 46 53T Dobie Moore 17 2 1 1 47 41 Lave Cross 17 1 1 48 46 Tommy Bond 16 1 1 49 47 Donie Bush 15 1 1 50 44T Fred Dunlap 14 1 1 51 49T Tom York 12 1 1 52T n/e Jack Fournier 11 1 1 52T 49T Sam Leever 11 1 1 54 51 Jim McCormick 10 1 1 55T n/e Del Pratt 8 1 1 55T Ross Youngs 8 1 1 57T 48 Mike Griffin 6 1 1 57T n/e Herman Long 6 1 1 57T 52 Tony Mullane 6 1 1 57T n/e Mike Tiernan 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Roy Thomas(53T).
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: October 26, 2004 at 12:34 AM | 29 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 26, 2004 at 01:28 AM (#937187)The Sox are led by future HOMers Lefty Grove and Jimmie Foxx, while the Cardinals star Dizzy Dean, Johnny MIze and Ducky Medwick.
Will some of the people who voted Bresnahan ahead of him try to convince why I should be able how that could be possible?
Will some of the people who voted Bresnahan ahead of Schang try to convince why I should be able to see how that could be possible?
you know what I meant! How can anyone vote Bresnahan ahead of Schang - show me what I'm missing!
-----------------------------------------------
Okay, I'm having the same problem others are having with Schang. I was all prepared to put him on my ballot, and then I did a season-by-season analysis.
Here's what I got:
Career: 1913-1929
Best catcher in the AL: Once (1919)
Second best catcher in AL: Twice (1914 and 1917)
Head to head with Ray Schalk, who had exactly same career, except 2 years shorter (AL catcher, 1912-1926).
Here's how they did, in their 14 overlapping years:
Schalk better 8 times: 1913-1917, 1920, 1922, 1925
Schang better 5 times: 1918-1919, 1921, 1924, 1926
Tied one time: 1923
The post-1922 years are pyrrhic, however, as neither player were among the best catchers in the league (Ruel and Cochrane were).
Conclusion: Despite my initial assumptions, Schang will not make my ballot. More interesting question, though, is whether this comparison upgrades Schalk enough for HIM to make my ballot. Schalk was the best catcher in the AL five times, and second best another 4 times. That should get him up into the Bresnahan 10-15 range.
--------------------------------
Essentially, Schang was a "Top 2" catcher in the AL times (1 first, 2 second).
HoFer Ray Schalk was a "Top 2" catcher 9 times (5 first, 4 seconds).
Bresnahan was a Top 2 catcher 4 times and a Top 2 Centerfielder twice.
Schalk and Bresnahan both have higher peaks. Schalk is in the HoF, and when you look at his year by year you can see why. Schang certainly has a lot of Win Shares (for a catcher), but he earned them by being the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best catcher year after year after year.
There were no new voters in 1937. Voters who have voted in the last 5 years but didn't in 1937: Brad Harris, Bryce B (Tanketra), Chris J. (!???), Eric Enders, Michael D, RMc, Sean M, TheGoodSamaritan.
James Newburg hasn't voted now for 5 years; he apparently joins the list of those, like Seaver 1969, stephen, and zapatero, who dropped in for a few years but then left. Tanketra may be on the same path.
I've got records going back to 1921. 32 voters have voted in all 17 of those elections. Here are those 32, sorted by total consensus score for the 17 years: Howie Menckel, favre, Brad G, Chris Cobb, daryn, Dan G, Devin McCullen, Tom H, Joe Dimino, Philip, Don F, Rusty Priske, Andrew Siegel, Al Peterson, Esteban Rivera, Sean Gilman, Adam Schafer, Ron Wargo, Rick A, PhillyBooster, OCF, Rob Wood, dan b, Jeff M, Dolf Lucky, robc, karlmagnus, Jim Sp, Eric C, jimd, John Murphy, KJOK.
Ken Fischer, Chris J, mdb1mdb1, Patrick W, and sunnyday2 have voted in 16 of those 17 elections. If they were appropriately ranked on the above consensus list, Ken Fischer and Chris J would rank 2nd and 3rd from the top, while sunnyday2 would be 3rd from the bottom.
I mean, submitting the ballot most like everyone else's, it's like an honor or something right? (tears flow)
Is it possible to calculate on which PLAYER we have the greatest and least consensus on?
Yes and no. I have a "disagreement score", but it tends to follow a predictable curve, reaching a maximum somewhere between #3 and #10 on the ballot and doing a slow fade after that. By this score, we disagree very little about someone like Tony Mullane or Tom York - the system is based on recorded votes and can't see whether you have such a candidate at #16 or #160.
Taking that score at face value, in 1937 the candidate with the most disagreement was Welch - and I think that makes sense, that he does deserve that title. The next few after Welch were Pike, Jennings, and Beckley. Those notable for lying under the curve (that is, having less disagreement than would be typical for the ballot position): Waddell, Griffith - and probably also Groh and Coveleski, although it's hard to see that part of the curve. C. Jones and McGraw have disagreement scores a little above those near them on the ballot.
I think I win because I get bored with 'favorites' who fall out of the top 20. They aren't going to get elected anyway, and I focus a little more on the newbies, instead. If I like those guys, they tend to slot in ahead of the oldies.
I also focus a lot on anyone who IS in the top 20 or so, and sometimes that leads me to renewed interest in someone like Tommy Leach.
Takes all kinds to have good elections. I accept my role - and the equal value of the 'nonestablishment' types.
Not to nitpick or anything. . . .
Also, I hope you don't mind that I may participate in the 1938 election. My "system" won't be very complex; my choices will probably be based primarily on warp1 and WS--both career totals and top 5. Whatever I do, I'll be sure to post it in the discussion thread first!
Not to nitpick or anything. . . .
I don't understand this crap sometimes. Thanks for the headsup.
Also, I hope you don't mind that I may participate in the 1938 election. My "system" won't be very complex; my choices will probably be based primarily on warp1 and WS--both career totals and top 5. Whatever I do, I'll be sure to post it in the discussion thread first!
Welcome!
With that in mind, here is a different cut at the results. The question is whether each of these lists is in the correct order in-group?
20C ML Position Players
1. Groh
2. Carey
3. Sisler
4. Roush
5. Bresnahan
6. Leach
7. Schang
8. Doyle
9. Hooper
10. Veach
The top 10 happens to coincide with players on 10 or more ballots. I have no major issues with this list other than Sisler and Doyle seem to be a bit low.
19C Position Players
1. Pike
2. Beckley
3. Jennings
4. Browning
5. Van haltren
6. Childs
7. Duffy
8. Ryan
9. C. Jones
10. McGraw
In this case, McGraw has fewer than 10 ballots, the others have 10 or more. Here the shorter seasons amplify the differences for peak vs. career voters and as a result I believe that Beckley is especially overrated and C. Jones especially underrated. My list varies in other places, but all the others are within the margin of error.
20C ML Pitchers
1. Coveleski
2. Waddell
3. Mays
4. Joss
5. Willis
6. Shocker
7. Cicotte
8. Cooper
9. Leever
Only the top 3 have 10 ballots. I think we've got the right 2 guys at the top but I think the timelining here is a little strong, i.e. with Mays ahead of Joss and Willis. But this is difficult.
19C Pitchers
1. Griffith
2. Welch
3. Bond
4. McCormick
5. Mullane
Only the top 2 have 10 ballots. I think the top 4 are the right guys to be thinking about though I don't agree with the order, and I don't think Mullane is the #5 guy. This group might not matter, OTOH.
NeL
1. Redding
2. Mendez
3. Monroe
4. Taylor
5. Poles
6. Moore
Top 3 have 10 ballots. These are the right guys and probably even the right order, though I personally think all are underrated, along with Sol White and Chino Smith.
So now all we have to do is argue about these 5 lists, and then integrate them. What's the problem? If I HAD to rank order the top guy on each list, it would be:
1. Groh
2. Pike
3. Redding
4. Coveleski
----(big gap)
5. Griffith
And don't give me weak electorate, because he's below (well below) a lot of people that Hill beat soundly when he was elected. It seems at least possible to me that Poles was dropped off a lot of ballots in 1934, then forgotten about when we started bringing those guys back on. In 1933, Poles was on 18 ballots. Just hard to explain.
I for one am not a fan of Poles. I just don't like his rate stats, a corner outfielder with no power and an OBP that is good but not great doesn't do it for me. 1935 was my first ballot so I wasn't someone who forgot about him.
Where am I going wrong here? I have read his thread and am not impressed. If you can say anything that would move him up I would be glad to hear it.
Thanks
I'm not the one to speak with about anything other than that, other than to say that Chris estimated him at around 330 career WS with a peak higher than the Carey and Van Haltren types. And that reading between the lines of the NBJHA, it's pretty clear he'd have had Poles in his top 125 players of all time if it had been extended that far. Of course, I'm the first to acknowledge problems with those rankings...
No new guys are anywhere close.
1. Hughie Jennings (3) - The argument I used for Caruthers all those years works even better for Hughie. Crammed so much value into a short career that he's more valuable than guys with productive careers twice or three times as long. First (probably of many times over the next 50 votes) time he's been #1 for me.
2. Heinie Groh (4) - Great player, great peak, position where we could use some inductees.
3. Stan Coveleski (5) - Great pitcher with whom I wasn't even all that familiar. Great peak, obvious HOMer.
4. José Méndez (7) - Very similar to Waddell pitching-wise. His hitting as a pitcher moves him to one spot above him, but he doesn't get credit in my system for his offensive rebirth (I don't think he'd have had it in the big leagues).
5. Rube Waddell (8) - Love the Ks, and his RA+ is very good (though obviously not as good as his ERA+, which is inflated). The intangibles argument holds no weight with me.
6. Pete Browning (9) - I reexamined the 3 "bat" candidates from the earlier days, him, Jones, and Pike, and Browning comes out on top. Just one hell of a hitter. If we elect Beckley before him, we should be embarassed.
7. Bobby Veach (10) - Love his peak, was super-strong both offensively and defensively.
8. Spotswood Poles (6) - A slightly lesser Pete Hill. Worthy of election. With that said, I'd let him drift a little higher on my ballot than he should have been. Bat puts him down here.
9. Dick Redding (11) - Of similar value to Mendez, but below him because of Mendez's bat, and Redding is a touch lighter on the peak.
10. Dobie Moore (12) - Really, anyone who has Jennings in their top 5 should have Moore somewhere on the ballot. I understand those who have neither, but Moore, while not Jennings, is close enough that there should never be more than 10 or so spots separating them.
11. Cupid Childs (13) - Beneficiary of my realizing that aside from Veach, the OF glut doesn't separate itself out very much. Solid combo of career and peak.
12. Bill Monroe (14) - Still tied to Childs at the hip. Was a hell of a hitter in the early days of the organized Negro Leagues, when he was already up in age.
13. Hugh Duffy (15) - Hugh was a strong hitter with a good offensive peak and a hell of a defender. A+ rating from Win Shares, despite playing more corner than center? Sign me up.
14. George Van Haltren (--) - Back on my ballot after an absense. Gets little credit for his pitching from me, but his combo of hitting and fielding has a lot of career, and just enough peak to get him on the bottom of the ballot.
15. Tommy Leach (--) - Jumps up in a late reconsideration. Stats are generally around the middle of the OF glut pack, but his time at third separates him out some, and he moves up as a result. We can still use more 3B inductees, even if they are just half.
Top 10 Returners not on my ballot
Beckley - No peak. Never any better than an above average player. Would be a terrible choice for election.
Carey - In the portion of the glut likely to make my ballot one day. Just not yet. I think there should be other election priorities, but he would not be a real mistake.
Pike - Re-examined him, and it just didn't work out. Think Browning is the better choice. Not saying he'll never make my ballot, but he's about 5-10 spots off at this stage.
Sisler - Peak isn't good enough for his short productive career. Only one season of the superpeak that he needed 3-4 seasons of to make it.
Griffith - A little behind Pike. I still think Waddell is the correct choice of the long time ballot pitchers to be inducted.
Welch - No longer strongly opposed to him. Not a supporter, but I acknowledge the case for him and that I could be wrong.
In the immortal words of Professor Hinkle from Frosty the Snowman, I've been busy, busy, BIZ-ZEEEE!!!! :-D
I'll see what I can do, but I have a lot of things on my plate at the moment.
Philly Booster, thanks for the reply, and sorry about my belated rebuttal . . .
I would say that Schalk comes out at 64.9 career WARP3, Schang at 76.0. WARP1 is a similar spread, though a touch tighter.
But look at the batting runs, Schang 356 BRAR, Schalk just 103. Schalk only moves closer on fielding runs. He did catch about 300 more games, even though their careers were of similar length, but I just think rating quality of catcher defense is quite suspect. While he was certainly a better defensive catcher, I think the degree that this impacted his teams is overstated by WARP.
Schang beats Schalk solidly on Win Shares, 245-191. This is with Schalk outpointing him 98-61 defensively.
I just don't see how it's possible to look at the two and see Schalk as close.
Taking the defensive advantage into account, I could see ranking them even through 1922. Comparing them seasonally, with Schang listed first:
1912: 0-3
1913: 13-13
1914: 19-17
1915: 17-18
1916: 12-16
1917: 15-20
1918: 10-7
1919: 19-17
1920: 20-21
1921: 20-11
1922: 18-22
Total 1912-22: Schang 163, Schalk 165 head to head seasons, not counting 1912, Shalk, 5-4-1.
Schalk was basically done as a productive player after 1922 (he was decent in 1925), totaling just 26 WS. Schang was Fisk-like in how long he was able to maintain his offense, rolling up 82 WS after 1922.
Schang was 39 years old in 1929, caught 55% of his teams games and still posted a 105 OPS+. Schalk had an OPS+ of 105 exactly once in his career, 1915.
Schang is miles ahead of Schalk, and as far as I can tell, any catcher of the era 1910-30 era.
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