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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, November 23, 20041939 Election Results: Faber and Carey Are Welcomed By the Hall of Merit!1939 goes down in HoM history as the election with the least consensus for the winning candidates. Newly eligible White Sox hurling star Red Faber was tops among the 53 voters with only 46.31% of the vote. Right on his heels (45.6% of the vote), in his fifth year of eligibility, was Pittsburgh outfield great Max Carey. Lip Pike’s long electoral journey is highlighted this “year” by earning the most “elect me” votes (285) and the most #1 votes (9) of any other player. Will he finally make it in his 43rd “year” as a candidate in 1940? Rounding out the top ten were returnees Joe Sewell (his first time on the ballot), Hughie Jennings, Eppa Rixey (another newbie), Clark Griffith, George Sisler, Jake Beckley and Rube Waddell. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Red Faber 589 44 1 5 4 3 4 1 1 1 3 4 5 3 4 2 3 2 3 Max Carey 580 37 8 2 1 6 2 3 3 4 2 2 3 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 4 Lip Pike 522 29 9 3 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 2 4 n/e Joe Sewell 507 36 3 1 5 3 1 5 2 2 2 2 2 1 4 1 2 5 5 Hughie Jennings 502 28 8 4 3 4 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 6 n/e Eppa Rixey 481 36 2 2 1 2 8 4 1 1 1 1 3 4 2 4 7 7 Clark Griffith 467 34 3 3 2 2 4 2 3 2 1 2 4 1 2 3 8 8 George Sisler 438 30 2 3 5 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 1 3 3 1 9 6 Jake Beckley 432 28 1 4 4 2 2 4 1 2 1 4 1 2 10 9 Rube Waddell 392 30 2 1 2 1 5 3 2 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 12 George Van Haltren 388 23 3 6 2 3 3 1 1 1 2 1 12 11 Cupid Childs 368 27 1 2 1 2 4 3 1 1 1 2 3 2 1 2 1 13 16 Tommy Leach 340 27 1 3 6 1 3 4 2 1 2 2 2 14 10 Mickey Welch 338 19 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 15 13 Pete Browning 329 21 1 3 3 3 3 1 1 1 2 2 1 16 14 Hugh Duffy 328 24 1 1 3 2 3 2 1 2 2 3 2 2 17 17 Edd Roush 297 23 2 3 1 3 4 3 4 1 1 1 18 15 Cannonball Dick Redding 280 23 1 1 1 4 4 4 1 3 2 2 19 18 Roger Bresnahan 241 22 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 5 1 3 3 20 19 José Méndez 236 21 2 1 2 1 3 1 2 4 1 3 1 21 21 Charley Jones 210 13 2 4 2 1 1 1 1 1 22 23 Wally Schang 204 16 1 1 1 2 3 3 1 2 2 23 22 Larry Doyle 192 15 1 2 2 1 2 1 1 3 2 24 20 Jimmy Ryan 175 14 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 3 25 24 Bill Monroe 152 14 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 2 2 26 26 Bobby Veach 148 12 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 27 25 Harry Hooper 134 12 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 28 29 George J. Burns 121 10 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 29 31T Vic Willis 108 11 1 1 1 3 3 1 1 30 27 Carl Mays 91 9 1 1 2 3 2 31 45 Dobie Moore 88 10 1 2 1 4 2 32 28 John McGraw 86 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 33 36 Fielder Jones 81 7 1 2 1 2 1 34 30 Ben Taylor 80 6 1 1 2 1 1 35 35 Frank Chance 71 6 1 1 1 2 1 36 33 Urban Shocker 65 7 1 1 1 2 1 1 37T 31T Ed Cicotte 62 7 1 1 2 2 1 37T n/e Rabbit Maranville 62 7 1 2 1 2 1 39 38 Gavy Cravath 56 5 1 1 1 1 1 40 40 Wilbur Cooper 54 5 1 1 1 1 1 41 37 Spotswood Poles 52 4 1 1 1 1 42 34 Addie Joss 49 5 1 1 1 1 1 43 39 Ed Williamson 49 4 2 1 1 44 41 Dave Bancroft 35 4 2 1 1 45 42 Ed Konetchy 34 3 1 1 1 46 n/e Jack Quinn 27 3 1 1 1 47T 49 Tommy Bond 23 1 1 47T 44 Lave Cross 23 1 1 49 43 Ray Schalk 22 2 1 1 50 52T Jack Fournier 21 2 1 1 51T 46T Donie Bush 15 1 1 51T 46T Fred Dunlap 15 1 1 53 50T Mike Tiernan 14 2 1 1 54T 52T Sam Leever 14 1 1 54T 52T Tom York 14 1 1 56T 55 Jim McCormick 13 1 1 56T 48 Del Pratt 13 1 1 58 58T Mike Griffin 12 2 2 59 56 Ross Youngs 11 1 1 60 50T Tony Mullane 8 1 1 Dropped Out: Jake Daubert(60T), Herman Long(57), Oliver Marcelle(58T), Bruce Petway(60T), Eddie Rommel(60T), Jim Whitney(60T).
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: November 23, 2004 at 01:31 AM | 37 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 23, 2004 at 02:21 AM (#978468)Oh, well. Carey was a damn good player who kicked major butt as a basestealer and fielder. His teams were lucky to have him for all of those years.
I'm glad Faber made it. Another pitcher for the HoM!
I was debating whether to put Carey into my PHoM this year or Zack Wheat and true to my inconoclastic reputation around here, I chose Carey. (And I chose Coveleski over Mendez as my pitcher, not that I always take a pitcher and a position player, but this year it was how I decided to break down the field into bite-sized pieces.)
Meanwhile, Faber we hardly knew ye. Now I will never figure out how good the guy really was. I don't object to him, I am just massively uncertain. Aside from Pud Galvin (just my opinion of course) is he the weakest pitcher ever elected?--and again that is not to say he is not deserving, somebody has to be the weakest.
But I am shocked, when everybody was talking about 6 or 7 contenders I assumed they meant #s 2-3-4-5-7-8-9 (hey, another song!). I am fairly sure that if Faber becomes eligible any other time between 1898 and 1950, he doesn't go in on the first ballot and possibly never. "Oh well." Again, I don't object...in fact, I enjoy being shocked now and then. But c'mon, how good was he, really? Now I'll never know!
At least we won't have to deal with none of Coveleski's contemporaries not getting in when he did, because of a supposedly "weak" electorate in 1938.
Any predictions for next year? I say Rogan and Pike with Rogan and Faber in line to make my PHOM.
Well, what the hell, I'll run it anyway. It's still right in the general trend of things, just don't get too caught up whether Joe Blow was exactly 6th or 7th, where Sewell spent a lot of his time.
It's about 90 pct accurate, and close to 100 with the top 4-5 spots.
These figures are based on a review of 14 key players, so a few of the early numbers near the bottom 10 may be slightly off. All of the top figures should be right, however.
RED FABER: Grabbed the top spot for the first time at Ballot 21, and never relinquished the lead. First copped an elect-me spot at No. 2 from Ballots 8-11, but settled mostly for 4th for the next nine tallies before taking over the election.
MAX CAREY: The comeback kid! Not even in the top 10 through any of the first 16 Ballots, then 16 more ballots drifting mostly at 9th or 10th and never higher than 8th. Never reached elect-me status until a No. 2 at Ballot 47, but once there, he never let go. Had grabbed 6th at Ballot 33 and mostly stayed there through 40 ballots. Then 5th for four ballots, and a 3rd and 4th before grabbing a brass ring.
LIP PIKE: Still in elect-me status thru ballot 43 and again through 46, but he just couldn't stop Carey and settled for bronze the rest of the way. Danced mostly around 4th to 6th for first 11 ballots, then rocketed into 1st for four straight tallies. Was 3rd thru 7th (and usually 5th) for each of the next 21 ballots except one elect-me 2nd in Ballot 21 - the same one where Faber grabbed his first lead. Lip then hit 2nd in six of the next seven Ballots, and briefly again later.
JOE SEWELL: Got hot midway thru the contest, grabbing 2nd or 3rd a dozen straight times beginning with Ballot 22. Still an elect-me 2nd at Ballot 36, but steadily slipped as was 6th or 7th from Ballot 41 to 51 before a modest late rally. Mostly 5th, 6th, or 7th in the first 21 ballots, only grabbed one 2nd in that span.
HUGHIE JENNINGS: Looked like he had no shot through 35 ballots, ranking just 10th to that point. Then went to 9th, 7th, 6th, 5th, and 3rd in consecutive ballots, an amazing run. Even grabbed an elect-me No. 2 in Ballots 44 and 45, but immediately slipped to 5th - his 4th-place finish was one of only two times at that slot in the last 8 ballots. Hughie was out of the top 10 thru 11 of the first ballots, then danced between 5th and 9th for 21 straight ballots (except one 3rd) before the amazing rally.
EPPA RIXEY: Hit his stride with his first elect-me 2nd at Ballot 14, first of seven straight tallies at either No. 1 or No. 2. Faber and Rixey shared the 1-2 slots at Ballots 20 and 22. Then came nine straight 4ths, five No. 2s in six years, and then a dozen years at 3rd or 4th. Slipped two slots in the last two ballots.
CLARK GRIFFITH: Never once did he do better than a share for 5th, yet Ol' Clark managed to nab a top 10 slot 45 times, including each of the last 26. Mostly 9th and 10th in the first half of the balloting, then mostly 7th and 8th, Griffith surged late but eventually settled for that 7th.
GEORGE SISLER: Very similar to Griffith. High point was a 5th after 3 ballots, yet never out of the top 10 after Ballot 25. Placed 8th or 9th thru each of the last 17 ballots, with 14 of 15 9ths until the last ballot lifted him to 8th.
JAKE BECKLEY: A long hard fall for Eagle Eye, the Ballot Leader from No. 2 thru No. 11 and 16-17. Still at No. 2 in Ballots 25-28, but then came a steady slide with no returns to elect-me status. Out of the top 3 after Ballot 35, out of the top 5 after Ballot 38, and out of Top 7 after Ballot 42. Had seven straight No. 8s before last ballot.
RUBE WADDELL: A strange ballot pattern to match a strange career: While others were jumping all around the rankings, Rube was exactly 10th following each of the final 17 ballots. That came after a 17-ballot stretch out of the rankings altogether. The first 19 ballots included sporadic 8ths, 9ths, 10ths, and ballot absences.
GEORGE VAN HALTREN: Less of a factor than some might have figured. Grabbed a bottom three slot in five of the first nine ballots, finally reappeared with a 9th and 10th in Ballots 35-36. Kept getting within a whisker of Waddell, but never caught him.
CUPID CHILDS: More of an early factor than some might have figured. Cupid was a top-4 guy thru each of the first six ballots, then grabbed 7th or 8th for a remarkable 21 straight ballots. Then came a 10th, and a disappearance for good.
MICKEY WELCH: Another huge dropoff player. Rated 2nd after Ballots 2 through 8, soon settled into mostly 7ths and 8ths, then jumped to 5th and 4th on Ballots 26-30. Was this to be the year? Nope. Next came a steady slide out of the top 10 within five more ballots, never to return.
I've got him over Coveleski. Probably Keefe, too. Maybe Spalding. Take your pick on Caruthers.
Pitchers are hard to judge, both against each other and against other positions. There are far too many different potential career paths.
Was Pud Galvin better than Addie Joss? The answer is that everyone will think that was probably better than the other by a lot, but won't agree on which one.
I think that bodes well for Lipman. With all those extra ballots, Sewell is a real threat, but Lip and Hughie have just as much potential for new (more) elect-me votes.
Discussion desparately needed on Rogan! Right now I have him #4. That is surely conservative, but until I get a better handle on him. Was he really the second coming of Bob Caruthers (and then hung on for 10 years)?
Instead, we got numbers 28 and 21 from my ballot. I think it's the first time ever neither electee made my ballot.
Ah well, next year: Pick Lip!
Both Urban Shocker and Urban "Red" Faber were born in the 1890s. The Social Security data base only goes back to 1900, so we can't get an exact analysis. In the 1900s, however, "Urban" was the 621st most popular male name, tied with Burl, Hardy, Ignatius, Merlin, Ole, Parker, and Sheldon.
In the 1910s, it had dropped to 794, tied with Adolfo, Clovis, Dorothy (also third most popular girl name), Hermon, Lafayette, Leander, McKinley, Reynolds, Shelton, Verner, and Vernie.
In the 1920s, it climbed up to 723, tied with Carter, Elzie, and Murphy.
In the 1930s, however, it fell out of the top 1000, never to return.
Today, 621 is "Jett", 723 is "Aditya" and 794 is "Cornelius". Which shows, primarily, that I don't get out much.
Of the names listed above, in 2003 "Carter" leads the way at 102. Adolfo is next at 443. Sheldon was still hovering in the same place (773). The rest are all out of the Top 1000. Oddly, not even "Herman" (spelled with an A) is in the Top 1000 -- I guess that will soon be seen as an old-person's name.
On the other hand, neither of my daughter's names made the girl's Top 1000, while both "Destiny" and three different mispellings of Destiny (Destinee, Destiney, and Destini) all did. So, who knows. Maybe there are a bunch of Urbans (or Suburbans, or -- more recently -- Exurbans) running around under the radar.
The most disagreed-about candidates were Pike and Jennings, with Welch also showing high disagreement for his overall placement. Faber, Sewell, Rixie, and Leach showed low disagreement for their placements.
The high disagreement for Pike and Jennings comes from their high numbers of "elect me" votes within a low number of overall votes. To the extent that I can predict things, I would predict that neither one will be elected in 1940, because they have few places to go to increase their point totals. Sewell, Rixie, and Griffith are better positioned to move up.
True, but it's also the case that they are less likely to move down significantly in a year when the arrival of many ballot-worthy but not shoo-in candidates may further fragment the ballot.
I had Faber at No. 6 and Carey at No. 15.
And my two 'elect-me's were Griffith and Welch.
How could you all be so wrong? C'mon guys, pull it together next year.
--
Phillybooster #13
The Wizard of Oz and following volumes were immensely popular, evidently so popular that a few people named their *sons* Dorothy. . . . A man named Burl is singing on the radio as I write. . . .
Oddly, not even "Herman" (spelled with an A) is in the Top 1000 -- I guess that will soon be seen as an old-person's name.
Herman Munster is Dorothy Gale (of Oz) in reverse.
Today, 621 is "Jett", 723 is "Aditya" and 794 is "Cornelius". Which shows, primarily, that I don't get out much.
Hey, I don't believe I have met anyone with any of the listed names, except femail Dorothys. The least you can do is tell us how to continue this research.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/
The Ghost of Red Faber?
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Red who? Max who? We get some idea of what the BBWAA thought of Hornsby's personality. And Kid Nichols is in a dead heat with Bill Dineen.
But good news for George Sisler.
Soon to Be Hall of Famer Happy Jack Chesbro wants to point out that he received as many votes for that Hall of Fame as Amos Rusie and Sam Crawford, and more than Zack Wheat and Bobby Wallace, to name a few HOMers.
Also, apparently Frankie Frisch was a member of the BBWAA, since Jesse Haines got a vote.
In sum, the BBWAA has elected:
1936 - Cobb - HOM
1936 - Ruth - not eligible for HOM yet
1936 - Wagner - HOM
1936 - Mathewson - HOM
1936 - W Johnson - HOM
1937 - Lajoie - HOM
1937 - Speaker - HOM
1937 - Young - HOM
1937 - G Wright (VC) - HOM
1937 - McGraw (VC) - still getting HOM votes, elected to HOF as manager
1937 - Mack (VC) - elected as manager
1937 - B Johnson (VC) - elected as pioneer
1937 - Bulkeley (VC) - elected because HOF VC voters stupid
1938 - Alexander - HOM
1938 - Cartwright (VC) - elected as pioneer
1938 - Chadwick (VC) - elected as pioneer
1939 - Sisler - getting HOM votes
1939 - E Collins - HOM
1939 - Keeler - HOM
1939 - Gehrig - not eligible for HOM yet
1939 - Anson (VC) - HOM
1939 - Ewing (VC) - HOM
1939 - Radbourn (VC) - HOM
1939 - Spalding (VC) - HOM
1939 - Comiskey (VC)- elected as contributor
1939 - Cummings (VC) - elected because some mystery VC voter thought he invented the curve
Does anyone know who is on this Hall of Fame Veteran's Committee?
Landis replaced them because they werent electing 19th century players. The 1939 selections were made by Landis, Frick and Harridge. They were the "Old-Timers Committee".
Landis then appointed the following Old-Timers Committee: Ed Barrow, Bob Quinn, Sid Mercer, and Connie Mack. Between 39 and 44 they never managed to meet.
All info from "The Politics of Glory".
1937: Landis, Harridge, Frick, Heydler, Bramham, Trautman
1938: presumably the same
1939: Landis, Harridge, Frick
IIRC, Harridge and Frick are the two league presidents at this time.
After the Hall opening in 1939, Landis appointed a new committee:
Edward Barrow (president, NY Yankees)
Robert Quinn (president, Boston Braves)
Connie Mack (president, Phil. Athletics)
Sid Mercer ("dean of baseball writers")
This committee never got around to meeting.
Landis added two more in 1944:
Stephen Clark (of the HOF)
Mel Webb (writer, Boston Globe)
This committee was also named as trustees for the HOF, succeeding Landis.
They then elected Landis after his death 3 months later.
The BBWAA was established in 1908. Among almost 500 members in 1951, Mel Webb was one of three from the class of '08: Melville Webb, Boston Globe; Ed Bang, Cleveland News; Ernest Lanigan, The Sporting News.
[Turkin & Thompson, Official Encyclopedia of BB, 1st ed., 1951]
From "Ted Williams: A Portrait in Words and Pictures" by Dick Johnson and Glenn Stout, page 97.
"It was not a Boston writer who left Williams off the ballot, a fact reported at the time and ignored ever since. Mel Webb didn't even have a vote in 1947. Boston was represented in the American League balloting by Jack Malaney of the Post, Joe Cashman of the Record, and Burt Whitman of the Herald. All three enjoyed a good relationship with Ted. Malaney was later hired by the Red Sox as publicity director. Cashman was a Williams favorite, as was Whitman. When Whitman died in 1952, Williams reportedly broke into tears.
"According to Harold Kaese, all three gave Williams a first-place vote, the only three he received. The 24th ballott came from a midwestern voter."
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