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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, November 09, 20041938 Election Results: Immortality is Awarded to Groh and Coveleski Via the Hall of Merit!In the election with the least consensus among the HoM voters ever (a record 63 candidates had their names on at least one ballot), Cincinnati’s finest third baseman Heinie Groh edged out his nearest opponent to win the first spot this “year” for induction in his sixth year of eligibility. Not that far behind, Cleveland mound legend Stan Coveleski earned the second HoM spot in his fifth year of eligibility. Both players were far ahead of the other 61 candidates. Among the top-ten also rans, Max Carey (who had the most #1 votes for this election), Lip Pike and Hughie Jennings appear to be the strongest candidates to take on the newbies of 1939. Rounding out the top-ten returnees were Jake Beckley, Clark Griffith, George Sisler, Rube Waddell and Mickey Welch. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 3 Heinie Groh 826 49 5 11 4 7 1 3 2 2 3 5 3 2 1 2 4 Stan Coveleski 794 49 5 7 8 4 5 3 2 2 3 1 1 3 4 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 5 Max Carey 547 35 9 2 2 2 3 1 4 3 2 2 2 2 1 4 6 Lip Pike 520 29 8 3 5 5 2 3 1 2 5 8 Hughie Jennings 490 30 7 2 4 3 3 1 1 3 3 2 1 6 7 Jake Beckley 446 27 3 5 2 3 2 1 5 2 2 1 1 7 11 Clark Griffith 429 34 2 4 2 4 2 3 2 3 2 1 4 2 3 8 10 George Sisler 415 32 1 1 6 2 3 1 1 3 1 1 4 1 3 4 9 9 Rube Waddell 405 31 1 1 1 2 2 4 3 4 5 1 3 1 3 10 12 Mickey Welch 384 22 6 4 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 15 Cupid Childs 374 29 1 1 4 2 1 3 1 4 1 1 3 5 2 12 14 George Van Haltren 363 25 2 3 4 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 13 13 Pete Browning 361 23 6 3 2 1 2 1 3 1 2 1 1 14 16 Hugh Duffy 343 26 1 1 2 1 3 4 1 1 1 3 2 1 5 15 18 Cannonball Dick Redding 313 26 1 1 1 4 3 2 5 7 2 16 20 Tommy Leach 306 26 6 4 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 3 17 17 Edd Roush 303 25 1 1 2 6 3 3 2 1 2 1 3 18 19 Roger Bresnahan 266 23 2 2 1 3 2 2 1 6 2 2 19 21 José Méndez 258 23 2 1 1 1 2 2 4 2 4 1 3 20 22 Jimmy Ryan 209 18 1 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 3 2 21 24 Charley Jones 193 13 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 22 25 Larry Doyle 190 13 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 23 23 Wally Schang 182 16 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 3 24 27 Bill Monroe 168 16 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 1 4 25 26 Harry Hooper 144 12 3 1 2 1 1 3 1 26 29 Bobby Veach 136 13 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 3 27 28 Carl Mays 109 11 2 4 2 2 1 28 30 John McGraw 101 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 29 33 George J. Burns 92 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 30 31 Ben Taylor 91 7 1 1 2 1 1 1 31T 38 Ed Cicotte 78 8 1 1 1 1 2 2 31T 34 Vic Willis 78 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 33 36 Urban Shocker 73 7 2 2 1 1 1 34 32 Addie Joss 72 6 2 1 1 2 35 39 Frank Chance 68 6 1 2 1 2 36 35 Fielder Jones 66 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 37 37 Spotswood Poles 61 5 1 1 1 2 38 41 Gavy Cravath 60 5 1 1 1 1 1 39 40 Ed Williamson 50 5 1 1 1 1 1 40 44 Wilbur Cooper 43 4 1 1 1 1 41 42 Dave Bancroft 40 5 1 1 1 1 1 42 43 Ed Konetchy 33 3 2 1 43 45 Ray Schalk 26 2 1 1 44 47 Lave Cross 25 2 1 1 45 46 Dobie Moore 21 2 1 1 46T 49 Donie Bush 17 1 1 46T 50 Fred Dunlap 17 1 1 48 55T Del Pratt 16 2 1 1 49 48 Tommy Bond 16 1 1 50T 57T Tony Mullane 14 2 1 1 50T 57T Mike Tiernan 14 2 1 1 52T 52T Jack Fournier 14 1 1 52T 52T Sam Leever 14 1 1 52T 51 Tom York 14 1 1 55 54 Jim McCormick 12 1 1 56 55T Ross Youngs 11 1 1 57 57T Herman Long 10 1 1 58T 57T Mike Griffin 7 1 1 58T n/e Oliver Marcelle 7 1 1 60T n/e Jake Daubert 6 1 1 60T 53T Bruce Petway 6 1 1 60T n/e Eddie Rommel 6 1 1 60T n/e Jim Whitney 6 1 1 Thanks to Evan Reich and Ron Wargo for double-checking the results!
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: November 09, 2004 at 01:53 AM | 36 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 09, 2004 at 02:25 AM (#958622)Carey, Pike, Jennings, and Welch all had more #1 votes.
Fascinating.
Fascinating.
Yet couldn't make in on more than 35 ballots, Mr. Spock. :-)
Anyhow, congrats to Heinie and Stan!
I have the following voters as putting Groh 2nd and Coveleski 3rd: John Murphy (#1), MIchael Bass (#9), David Foss (#60), and Max Parkinson (#142). Could you recheck how you've tallied those particular votes?
As punishment for his deception, John shall be forced to read, in detail, each of jonsey's Wes Ferrell posts.
Average: -4.5
Highest: jschmeagol +6, Chris Cobb +4, the new guy (Tiboreau) +4, Buddha +4.
Lowest: jhwinfrey -18, Guapo -17, Ron Wargo -14, Eric C -14.
Closest to average (within .01 of it): John Murphy.
Previous year of greatest disagreement was 1931. In that year, the average was -3.1, the highest scores were +6, +5, +5, +5 and the lowest scores were -22, -14, -13, -13.
I not only did read yours and Evan's totals, they also match what I originally had, too! Some of the formulas on my ballot counter were screwed up. Me thinks gremlins have overtaken my computer (or at least Excell).
As punishment for his deception, John shall be forced to read, in detail, each of jonsey's Wes Ferrell posts.
That's been done already weeks ago. Even enjoyed them.
Closest to average (within .01 of it): John Murphy.
To close to the truth in many other areas. :-(
Lowest: jhwinfrey -18, Guapo -17, Ron Wargo -14, Eric C -14.
I think yest is going to be very disappointed not to see his name there. :-D
Preference by timeline:
"Youngest" (greatest preference for the most recent players):
Guapo
Dolf Lucky
dan b
OCF
robc
"Oldest":
Sean Gilman
esteban rivera
Rick A
John Murphy
sunnyday2
Preference for outfielders:
Most:
mdb1mdb1
Rusty Priske
Brad G
DanG
Patrick W, Ron Wargo (tied)
Least:
Jim Sp
KJOK
Brian H
Howie Menckel
Daryn
Preference for infielders and catchers:
Most:
KJOK
Jim Sp
jimd
David Foss
Brian H
Least:
yest
Brad G
Philip
mdb1mdb1
Ken Fischer
Preference for first basemen:
Most:
yest
Buddha
karlmagnus
Daryn
SWW
Zero:
jimd, Michael Bass, TomH, Sean Gilman, Devin McCullen, Rick A, Brent, Dr. Chaleeko, Philip
Preference for pitchers:
Most:
Chris Cobb
Adam Schafer
karlmagnus
jhwinfrey
Thane of Bagarth
Least:
mdb1mdb1
robc
Andrew Siegel
jimd
SWW
Preference for Negro League (or Cuban) players:
Most:
Thane of Bagarth
Michael Bass
jhwinfrey
Dr. Chaleeko
Devin McCullen
Zero:
karlmagnus, Buddha, Dolf Lucky, TomH, yest, Dan Rosenheck, Rob Wood, Brian H, favre, Brad G, DanG, jimd, Andrew Siegel, mdb1mdb1
--
Chris J. hasn't voted in either of the last two elections. What's up with that?
"Youngest" (greatest preference for the most recent players):
Guapo
This is simply my way of acknowledging what a fantastic job the electorate did before I joined the project. ;-)
I noticed that too. Strange thing is that he's around and posting good stuff! Just no ballot.
76 total points for pitchers puts you 11th on that list. Chris Cobb had 100 points for pitchers.
3. Carey
16. Roush
17. Leach
18. Bresnahan
22. Doyle
29. Burns
38. Cravath
41. Bancroft
All are members of the weaker sex, er, league, all peaked during the deadball era. We oughta be able to get these guys right, and I no more claim to have them right than anybody else. But I don't think WE have them right at all.
Carey that much better than everybody else??? Bancroft last among this cohort? To me, Bancroft and Carey are very comparable. Also I think we are very very hard on IFers.
I also think Negro Leaguers are generally underrated as well as pitchers generally underrated.
If the best players (by consensus) in these underrated categories are indeed Jennings, Redding and Waddell, I would urge everyone to take a look at these three guys. Or if you don't like those particular guys, #2 in each category this year may very well be Sewell, Winters and Faber/Rixey. All of these seven players will be on or very very close to my 1939 ballot.
1. Jennings
2. Bond
3. Pike--yes the pioneers had the opportunity to accumulate a lot of value because of the small pool (low replacement) plus unrealistic extrapolations to 154 or 162 games. I do normalize the seasons but only to WARPs formula, which doesn't add a whole lot, and these guys still had huge value, huge pennant impact. For Bond, this is also after reducing his value by 50 percent and giving it to his fielders. Of course I'm a peak/prime voter.
4. Sisler--best of the 20th century backlog. If his peak was, say, 10 percent below Joe Jackson, well, even his rather sorry decline was better than what the Shoeless one did after 1920. If Jackson, then Sisler.
5. C. Jones--see Jennings-Bond-Pike.
6. Waddell--see post #19.
7. Carey--even adjusting some IF and P upwards, I still gotta love his defense and base-running. A unique talent.
8. Redding
9. Sewell
10. Williamson
11. Childs
12. Browning
13. Mendez
14. Faber
15. Rixey
16. Winters
17. Doyle
18. Bancroft--see post #19
19. Roush
20. Leach
21-25. Monroe, McCormick, Duffy, Griffith, Bresnahan.
26-30. Dunlap, Veach, Poles, D. Moore, Van Haltren.
31-35. C. Smith (love that peak!), Joss, Tiernan, Chance, Cicotte.
36-40. Taylor, Maranville, Willis, Burns (the good one), Ryan
41-50. Cooper, Schang, Beckley, Welch, Whitney, Shocker, Mullane, Mays, Schalk, Marcelle.
I don't seriously believe that the last few names are not really in the top 50, it's just that they were in a 50 man consideration set based in part on HoM voting and positional balance. I really wanted to rank more pitchers more highly but with some of these guys I just couldn't do it. OTOH, I may be underrating the more unique talents like Maranville and Marcelle. I'm pretty sure I'm not underrating Schang though he too is a unique talent.
In any event, my ballot will come from among the top 19 above. Have to get a better fix on Faber, Rixey and Winters, basically. Faber and Rixey do look like the best of the 20th century pitchers other than Rube and Winters does look very comparable to Mendez and Redding, but I think, for now, below.
"Oldest":
Sean Gilman
esteban rivera
Rick A
John Murphy
sunnyday2
What was that again, Marc? You're still in good standing with the anti-timeliners. :-)
John you'll get a even bigger suprise on my next ballot
Looks like 53.
I did a quick count and found 41* different voter names on OCF's preferences list. If there were 53 ballots cast, there were 12* voters (including me and PhillyBooster -- not sure who else) who made none of the preferences lists.
Does that mean the omitted 12 have the most balanced ballots? :)
*Numbers are approximate. I just eyeballed it.
Correct.
John you'll get a even bigger suprise on my next ballot
Looking forward to viewing your next ballot, yest. :-)
Does that mean the omitted 12 have the most balanced ballots? :)
No, it means that the omitted 12 are gutless conformists. :-)
At least 10 out of the 15 names on my ballot MIGHT have been the best ever, if we could properly consider all of the factors. They might also reasonably be the 50th best of their era. I prefer to take chances on players who might have been the best, rather than on players who I know for sure were only no better than third or fourth best -- but certainly no worse than fifth.
Or is it rather that your limited methods cannot grasp the depths of my non-conformity!
What you fail to consider is that even when I vote for a consensus top candidate, I am doing so for completely different reasons!
What you fail to consider is that even when I vote for a consensus top candidate, I am doing so for completely different reasons!
Okay, now you have made my head hurt. :-)
What you fail to consider is that even when I vote for a consensus top candidate, I am doing so for completely different reasons!
I just saw What the Bleep Do We Know?, and, Phillybooster, this somehow sounds like some of the scientists in the film explaning both Quantam Mechanics and God. Which is to say--well said.
I refuse to be a gutless conformist unless everyone else is one.
I wasn't sure if I was going to chime in on this. But since favre broke the ice, I will.
I agree.
I'll do whatever it takes to get on one of these special lists. :)
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