BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1943 Ballot Results: The Hall of Merit Honors Oscar Charleston and Mickey Cochrane!

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Monday, January 24, 2005

1943 Ballot Results: The Hall of Merit Honors Oscar Charleston and Mickey Cochrane!

In his first year of eligibility, centerfield legend Oscar Charleston was elected almost unanimously with 99% of the vote. He is the tenth Negro Leaguer to enter the Hall of Merit.

In also his first year on the ballot, fiery catcher Mickey Cochrane gained the second most points to earn the second spot for induction.

Two other newbies,star second baseman Frankie Frisch and Negro League pitching standout Willie Foster, showed considerable support from the electorate.“The Fordham Flash,” in particular, has an excellent shot for induction in 1944.

Rounding out the top ten were John Beckwith, Eppa Rixey, Clark Griffith, Jake Beckley, Joe Sewell and George Van Haltren .

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Oscar Charleston        1238   52  49  2        1                              
 2  n/e  Mickey Cochrane         1102   52   2 34 11  1  1  1  1     1                  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Frankie Frisch           951   51     14 22 10  1     2     1              1   
 4  n/e  Willie Foster            624   43      1  2 12  3  6  2  5  4  4  3     1      
 5    5  John Beckwith            453   37         4  1  3  4  3  3  4  2  4  3  1     5
 6    3  Eppa Rixey               397   33         2  1  2  4  5  3  2  4  2        7  1
 7    6  Clark Griffith           344   30            1  5  1  3  2  3  4  2  1  2  3  3
 8   10  Jake Beckley             334   27      1     4  1  2  2  3  1  2  3  3  4  1   
 9    4  Joe Sewell               331   27         1  2  5  1  3  4  2     1     3  2  3
10    7  George Van Haltren       311   24         2  4  1  3  1  1  2  5  2     1     2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   11  George Sisler            306   24   1        5  2  2  1     2  3  1  2  1  4   
12    8  Hughie Jennings          289   23         1  2  5  2     3  2  1     2  1  3  1
13   13  Hugh Duffy               257   22               2  3  3  2  3  1  2  1  3     2
14    9  Tommy Leach              255   24            1  1  1  1  2  2  4  3  2  4  1  2
15   12  Rube Waddell             251   22         1  1     2  3  1     4  3  3  2  2   
16   14  Edd Roush                222   21               1  2  1  1  2  2  4  3  2  2  1
17   16  Cupid Childs             209   18               1  3  3     1  2  3  3  1  1   
18   17  Mickey Welch             208   15         3  1  2  1  1  2  1  1     3         
19   18  Pete Browning            185   15            1  3  2  2     2        2  1     2
20   19  Burleigh Grimes          168   14               1  1  2  3  3     1  1  1  1   
21   15  Cannonball Dick Redding  155   16               1        2  1  1  3  2  2  2  2
22   24  Charley Jones            137   10         1  1  2  1     2  1        1  1      
23   20  Larry Doyle              133   12            1     3        1  1  1  2  1     2
24   22  Jimmy Ryan               125   12               1     2  2        2  1     2  2
25  n/e  Dick Lundy               115   11            2  1        1        1  1  1  1  3
26   23  José Méndez              112   10                  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1     1
27   28  Dobie Moore              107   12                  1           1     4  4  1  1
28   21  Roger Bresnahan          104   12                  1     1     1     1  3  2  3
29   27  Sam Rice                 103    9                  1  1  2  2     1        2   
30   26  Bill Monroe              100   11                  1     2           2  2  1  3
31   25  Wally Schang              94    8         1     1  1        1  1        1  2   
32   29  Pie Traynor               79    8         1              1  1  1           1  3
33   31  George J. Burns           65    7               1              1     2     2  1
34   34  John McGraw               53    5                     1        1  2     1      
35   33  Ben Taylor                46    4                  1        2              1   
36T  43  Gavy Cravath              45    4                     2              1  1      
36T  30  Harry Hooper              45    4                     1     1     1  1         
38   41  Carl Mays                 39    5                                 1  1  1     2
39   32  Vic Willis                39    3                     2        1               
40   40  Spotswood Poles           32    3                              2  1            
41   38  Addie Joss                29    3               1                          1  1
42   37  Rabbit Maranville         27    3                        1              1     1
43   36  Wilbur Cooper             27    2            1                    1            
44   35  Bobby Veach               26    3                                 1  1     1   
45   47  Ed Cicotte                26    2               1                 1            
46   44  Ed Williamson             24    3                                 1        2   
47   49  Lave Cross                24    2               1                       1      
48   39  Urban Shocker             20    3                                       1     2
49   42  Hack Wilson               17    2                                    1  1      
50  n/e  Judy Johnson              16    1               1                              
51   48  Ed Konetchy               14    2                                       1     1
52T  52  Fred Dunlap               14    1                     1                        
52T  64T Ross Youngs               14    1                     1                        
54   45  Frank Chance              13    2                                          1  1
55T  55T Dolf Luque                13    1                        1                     
55T  55T Tom York                  13    1                        1                     
57T  53  Buzz Arlett               12    1                           1                  
57T  59T Tommy Bond                12    1                           1                  
57T  58  Sam Leever                12    1                           1                  
60   57  Donie Bush                11    1                              1               
61   51  Jim McCormick              9    1                                    1         
62T  50  Dave Bancroft              7    1                                          1   
62T  62  Ray Schalk                 7    1                                          1   
64   46  Fielder Jones              6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Jack Fournier(59T), Del Pratt(54), Jack Quinn(63), Duke Farrell(59T), Herman Long(64T).

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 24, 2005 at 10:32 PM | 18 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 25, 2005 at 01:01 AM (#1100253)

hot topics

2. Kelly in SD Posted: January 25, 2005 at 01:25 AM (#1100306)

Congrats to Oscar and Mickey.

I don't know how to figure consensus scores, but I am willing to guess that yest will have this "year's" lowest.
Also, so much for me having the most idiosyncratic ballot this year.

WOT: Seeing Oscar get elected his first year reminded me of a play I saw called "Cobb" if I remember the name right. There were four characters: young brash Cobb (say 1909 or so), end of career Cobb, old Cobb (1960 or so) who would argue with each other and then Oscar (late in years) who acted as a bit of a conscience/ corrective voice. Enoyable. Don't remember too much now, but at the time it seemed like accurate portrayals of the different ages of Cobb.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

3. OCF Posted: January 25, 2005 at 01:31 AM (#1100318)

Average consensus score +9.8. Maximum possible +22. Only three negative consensus scores: karlmagnus -8, Guapo -6, yest -1. Highest scores Rob Wood and Howie Menckel, +19, followed by Chris Cobb +17.

Everyone who has ever gotten support resembling what Frisch got has been elected, rather easily. Of course with a new unanimous ballot-topper next year, Frisch will have to fight with Goslin for the one available slot. But he'll get in eventually, no doubt. Bill Foster is also in a position from which eventual election is very likely.

4. OCF Posted: January 25, 2005 at 01:36 AM (#1100328)

Kelly: yest's ballot caught your attention because he had Charleston 5th, the only one to have him below 2nd. But yest's votes for the top three were 5-2-4. karlmagnus voted those same three 1-7-14, and Guapo left Frisch off his ballot.

5. Ankleball Moss Posted: January 25, 2005 at 02:01 AM (#1100390)

Oscar Charleston 5th?????

6. PhillyBooster Posted: January 25, 2005 at 02:27 AM (#1100464)

So, absent a ballot thread, any thoughts on Kiki Cuyler? He looks like a real tweener -- moderate peak, moderate career -- most similars (who are eligible for the HoM) include two HoFer/ HoMers (Kelley and Thompson), two HoFer/non-HoMers (Roush and Duffy) and two non-HoFers/non-HoMers (Ryan and Veach).

He's not going in in 1944, so there's time, but so far my panel is stumped.

7. Chris Cobb Posted: January 25, 2005 at 02:36 AM (#1100488)

Having just ranted about Averill over on the Goslin thread, I'll say here that, while Cuyler's better than I thought he would be, he's not near my ballot at this point. Preliminary placement is at 29.

8. Michael Bass Posted: January 25, 2005 at 06:08 AM (#1101050)

The following Negro League players received votes on this ballot:

Willie Foster
John Beckwith
Dick Redding
Dick Lundy
Jose Mendez
Dobie Moore
Bill Monroe
Ben Taylor
Sportswood Poles
Judy Johnson

The bolded players are players for whom we do *not* have Chris Cobb season-by-season WS estimates. Taking them one-by-one...

Foster: Probably the most pressing, though as he is a pitcher, probably the most taxing on Chris. Still, he's right on the border of going in very soon, and an estimate would be very useful.

Monroe: Estimate probably is impossible or nearly so. I could be wrong on that of course; if there is any way to take a lunge at it, I'd like to see it.

Poles: We did get an estimate on his hitting from Jeff, but from what I've seen Jeff and Chris's estimates are very different in general. Plus, of course, defense is a key part of Poles' case.

Johnson: Only received one vote, and even that was from someone who admits he's likely to drop him some. Not a priority.

I certainly don't mean to put pressure on Chris, lord knows he does more than we could reasonably ask around here. But if he does dip into the "backlog" any time soon, I think these 3 (2 if Monroe is simply not possible) would be the place to start.

9. Howie Menckel Posted: January 25, 2005 at 01:47 PM (#1101347)

Alltime vote through 1943, top 25

Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
VAN HALTREN 11727.5
DUFFY 11552
Bennett 11503
JENNINGS 11419
BECKLEY 10946
Caruthers 10704
BROWNING 10424.5
RYAN 9797
H Stovey 9576
GRIFITH 9364
WADDELL 8992
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
CHILDS 8155
Pearce 8073
WELCH 8014
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
Galvin 6585
Sheckard 6377
Sutton 6070
McPhee 5921
Wallace 5808
(Bresnahan 5768)

Van Haltren and Duffy move up to 3-4; Jennings will go to 5 next year and continues to gain on Duffy. Beckley moves up a slot to 6 while Browning-Ryan remain 8-9. Griffith will move into the top 10 next year as he continues to win his ballot over 12th-man Waddell. Childs and Welch make big jumps to 15 and 17. Bresnahan, staggered by Cochrane's arrival, still will make it into top 25 next year.

10. yest Posted: January 28, 2005 at 05:39 AM (#1107469)

this is a list of all HoF players (I‘m including all non players who‘s playing career isn‘t too bad) who are in or eligible for the HoM (HoMers are in bold) (the years are the years they were elected to the hall of fame)
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young, Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Grover Cleveland Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins, Willie Keeler, Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson, Charles Comiskey, Candy Cummings, Buck Ewing, Charlie Radbourn, Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Hugh Jennings, King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke, Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett, Frank Chance, Jack Chesbro, Johnny Evers, Clark Griffith, Tommy McCarthy, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Joe Tinker, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh
1947
Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch
1948
Herb Pennock, Pie Traynor
1949
Three Finger Brown, Kid Nichols
1952
Harry Heilmann
1953
Chief Bender, Bobby Wallace, Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville, Bill Terry
1955
Dazzy Vance, Home Run Baker, Ray Schalk
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey, Billy Hamilton
1962
Edd Roush, Bill McKechnie
1963
John Clarkson, Elmer Flick, Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey
1964
Red Faber, Burleigh Grimes, Miller Huggins, Tim Keefe, Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Casey Stengel
1968
Kiki Cuyler, Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Coveleski, Waite Hoyt
1970
Earle Combs, Jesse Haines
1971
Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Joe Kelley, Rube Marquard
1972
Ross Youngs
1973
George Kelly, Mickey Welch.
1974
Jim Bottomley, Sam Thompson
1975
Bucky Harris, Judy Johnson
1976
Roger Connor, Fred Lindstrom, Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie, Joe Sewell, Pop Lloyd
1978
Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson.
1981
Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1995
Vic Willis
1996
Ned Hanlon, Bill Foster
1998
George Davis, Bullet Joe Rogan
1999
Frank Selee, Smokey Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee

This is slightly irrelevant but I saw this quote on the hall of fame’s website and it was to funny not to share.
Wade Boggs said “If you take away any of my time spent with any of the three teams in my career, I’m likely not considered a Hall of Famer”.

11. Howie Menckel Posted: January 28, 2005 at 04:56 PM (#1108433)

Good list.
I'd further refine it to this:

HOF players we've not been willing to put in (42)
George Sisler, Roger Bresnahan, Hugh Duffy, Hugh Jennings, Frank Chance, Jack Chesbro, Johnny Evers, Clark Griffith, Tommy McCarthy, Joe Tinker, Rube Waddell, Herb Pennock, Pie Traynor, Chief Bender, Rabbit Maranville, Ray Schalk, Edd Roush, Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey, Burleigh Grimes, Kiki Cuyler, Goose Goslin, Waite Hoyt, Earle Combs, Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Rube Marquard, Ross Youngs, George Kelly, Mickey Welch, Jim Bottomley, Judy Johnson, Fred Lindstrom, Joe Sewell, Addie Joss, Hack Wilson, Travis Jackson, Vic Willis, Bill Foster

Mostly in HOF via managing/executive/pioneering (12)
Connie Mack, John McGraw, Charles Comiskey, Harry Wright, Candy Cummings, Wilbert Robinson, Bill McKechnie, Miller Huggins, Casey Stengel, Bucky Harris, Ned Hanlon, Frank Selee

A few are open to debate, of course. This lists Goslin but not shoo-in Gehrig or Frisch, which is debatable, list Frisch if you prefer.

12. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: January 28, 2005 at 06:36 PM (#1108670)

Howie, that's a fun list. I think we can break it down another step as well....

Candidates with strong support (appearing on half of all ballots):
Clark Griffith, Eppa Rixey, Goose Goslin*, Jake Beckley, Bill Foster, Joe Sewell.
*my gut feeling here, feel free to disagree.

Candidates with moderate support (appearing on a third of ballots):
George Sisler, Hugh Duffy, Hugh Jennings, Rube Waddell, Edd Roush.

Candidates with some support (one quarter of ballots):
Burleigh Grimes, Mickey Welch. KiKi Cuyler*
*Ditto the Goslin comment.

Candidates with weak support (one fifth of all ballots):
Roger Bresnahan.

Candidates with almost no support (one tenth of all ballots):
Pie Traynor, Sam Rice.

Candidates on life support (1-4 ballots):
Dave Bancroft, Ross Youngs, Hack Wilson, Judy Johnson, Harry Hooper, Addie Joss, Vic Willis, Ray Schalk, Rabbit Maranville, Waite Hoyt, Frank Chance.

Candidates with no support (zero ballots):
Jack Chesbro, Johnny Evers, Tommy McCarthy, Joe Tinker, Herb Pennock, Chief Bender, Earle Combs, Jesse Haines, Chick Hafey, Rube Marquard, George Kelly, Jim Bottomley, Fred Lindstrom, Travis Jackson.

When looked at in tiers like this, it's obvious that we're doing a fine job of screening candidates and throwing appropriate amounts of support at them (at least in terms of the number of ballots cast for each). The worst of the HOF lot are in no danger of being elected unless we expand to fifteen-man classes instead of three starting in 1958.

A little pat on the institutional back. ; )

13. OCF Posted: January 28, 2005 at 06:45 PM (#1108686)

HOF players we've not been willing to put in (42)

Although this list does contain the completely rejected (e.g. Chesbro, McCarthy, Kelly) and those whose candidacies have run out of steam (e.g. Maranville, Joss, Willis), it also contains a significant number of players whose candidacies are very much alive. Several of them will certainly be inducted when the time is right.

And I'm sure you noticed when you put Chance and Griffith on the first list but McGraw on the second that it's not easy to draw a firm line between the two lists.

14. OCF Posted: January 28, 2005 at 06:47 PM (#1108696)

it also contains a significant number of players whose candidacies are very much alive

- which Dr. Chaleeko proceeded to list while I wasn't watching. Crossing posts.

15. Daryn Posted: January 28, 2005 at 07:09 PM (#1108744)

I predict we elect between 10 and 13 of the listed 42. That is still a lot more differences than I thought there would be at the start of this project, particularly if that number increases substantially (as it may) over the next 60 years.

Anyone else have pre-conceived notions of how many differences there would be by the end of the project?

16. jhwinfrey Posted: February 01, 2005 at 05:20 PM (#1117988)

Just trying to bump this thread back up to hot topics so it's easier to access while I compose my '44 ballot.

Anyone else think there should be a link back to the previous year's results in each year's ballot header? As long as we're required to mention last year's top ten, it makes sense to me to make it easier to find the corresponding list.

17. jimd Posted: February 01, 2005 at 06:18 PM (#1118164)

The more links the better. (One reason why I enjoy baseball-reference.com; it's so easy to browse.)

I will note that there already is a link from the main HOM page to each election result page.

18. Jim Sp Posted: February 01, 2005 at 06:23 PM (#1118175)

Good idea, I'll second that.

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Monday, January 24, 2005

1943 Ballot Results: The Hall of Merit Honors Oscar Charleston and Mickey Cochrane!

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