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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, January 31, 2005

1944 Ballot

Lou Gehrig (unanimous?) and second-year candidate Frankie Frisch appear to be the early favorites this election, though Goose Goslin may surprise some of us by winning the second spot.

Other notable newbies include Wes Ferrell, Waite Hoyt and Kiki Cuyler.

Returnees include Willie Foster, John Beckwith, Eppa Rixey, Clark Griffith, Jake Beckley, Joe Sewell and George Van Haltren.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 31, 2005 at 01:58 AM | 121 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: February 07, 2005 at 06:15 AM (#1129805)
I'm still shaking my head about that onside kick. Not a very exciting election, but there are plenty of interesting players to try and figure out how to rank. Gehrig and Cochrane make my PHoM this year.

1. Lou Gehrig (new) So, if Albert Pujols keeps this up for another decade, maybe we can talk about a competitor for Best 1Bman Ever.

2. Frankie Frisch (2) Long career, excellent fielder, OK hitter, made a ton of World Series, mostly in tight pennant races. Of course, he couldn’t even put the right ex-teammates in the Hall of Fame (Heinie Groh). Made my PHoM last year.

(2A Mickey Cochrane)
3. Goose Goslin (new) Has more career value than any other OF on the ballot, and is among the best peaks. Clearly a solid HoM selection.

4. Bill Foster (new) This is where Vance was, and about where Coveleski would be. His reputation warrants placement this high, even if I’m not completely certain it was fully deserved, although the MLEs tend to support it.

5. Tommy Leach (5) Excellent fielder at important positions, OK hitter. Among the candidates he has one of the best career arguments. His peak isn't great, but it's certainly respectable. I'm not sure why he dropped off so much, if he's getting a "CF bonus" from Win Shares, what about Van Haltren? Made my PHoM in 1940.

6. Joe Sewell (6) Yes, the American League had no shortstops in the 1920s. But it was probably the stronger league (although less dramatically than in the 1910s), and Sewell was clearly one of the top 10 position players in the league. I see him as just a little better than Childs. Both middle infielders, good hitters, Sewell was a little better fielder. Similar career lengths, were both best at their positions in a decade (among white ball players). Sewell was probably playing in a better league. Made my PHoM in 1939.

7. Cupid Childs (7) He could hit the ball pretty well for a 2B and his defense was decent. I'd say his defensive advantage outweighs Doyle's offensive one. His career is on the short side, but he was the best second baseman of the 1890s, whatever you feel that's worth (among white players, at least). Made my HoM in 1932.

8. Bill Monroe (8) A good player at an important defensive position, with a great reputation for his fielding. Have him close to Childs, with a longer career, but probably less peak value. Made my PHoM in 1939.

9. John Beckwith (9) Could hit the heck out of the ball, questionable defense at big positions, not the friendliest guy to be around. I'm not wholly convinced yet, but the MLEs do argue for a pretty high ballot position.

10. George Van Haltren (10) Kind of a dividing line for me, as I can't see putting him in without Carey and Ryan as well. I know he was a CF, but he only made the top 10 in OPS+ 3 times, and was 10th twice (in 1888 and 1901) and 7th once (in the 1891 AA). That just doesn't seem like a HoMer to me.
(10A Max Carey)

11. Jimmy Ryan (11) Behind GVH because he dropped off fairly strongly after his accident. Never going to get that far away from him.
(11 A Bill Terry)

12. Wes Ferrell (new) Hoo boy. One of the hardest players we'll have to judge, there's a lot of different twists to his record. His peak is pretty huge, but his career is awfully short for a HoMer. Could be somewhere else entirely next year.

13. Dick Lundy (12) I agree, the MLE’s look very similar to Sewell, with a bit less peak, so he’s a little lower. This could be on the high side, but he was a very good player.

14. Dick Redding (13) If I was sure he was the #5 pitcher in Negro Leagues history, he’d be in my PHoM. But I’m not, so he’s not. I'm also not sure the teens need many more pitchers.

(14A Sam Thompson)

15. Hughie Jennings (14) His peak still leaps out at you, but there's just so little around it that I can’t put him higher than this.

16. Eppa Rixey (15) I might be underestimating him, and he did throw a ton of innings, but as I look at everything, he's definitely behind Vance and Faber, and a bit behind Ferrell. I need to take another look at my pitcher rankings.
17. Jose Mendez (16) A very good pitcher who had some excellent seasons, but doesn’t quite match up to Redding.
(17A Rube Foster)
18. Spotswood Poles (17) His numbers seem similar to Monroe's, but he's an OF instead of a 2B. His defensive reputation appears good.
19. Dave Bancroft (18) Looking at how their Win Shares compared to the rest of their leagues, Sewell does have an edge, but it's not a huge one. Wins the award for "Best Frankie Frisch Selection".
20. Bobby Veach (19) Has good peak value and a halfway decent career value. Packed more punch into his career than Hooper. Seems like a good fielder for a corner OF.
21. Rube Waddell (20) Every time I check the numbers recently he moves up, but still not that much meat on the bones.
22. Ben Taylor (21) A little better than Beckley and Sisler to me for now. Top-3 Negro League 1B isn’t necessarily enough for me to put him in the HoM, though.
23. Jake Beckley. (22) There is a TON of career value, but his average season is just too average to give him that much credit.
24. Larry Doyle. (23) Amazingly similar hitter to Ed Konetchy, but definitely a worse fielder. Is the 2B offense better than the 1B Defense?
25. Charley Jones (24) Hard to be sure how much credit to give for the blacklisted years, but clearly a good player.
26. Clark Griffith (25) I think the 1890s will have to suffer with 3 HoM pitchers, he just lacks the greatness I feel I need to see.
27. Roger Bresnahan (26) I was underrating catchers, and didn’t realize how good his CF years were. But the career’s still too short.
28. George Sisler (27) Not too different from Terry, but a worse fielder, and has more near or below average years.
29. Kiki Cuyler (new) His career advantage on Veach mostly comes from near-average years, so I'm going with Veach's peak. Not a terrible HoF pick by any means.
30. Burleigh Grimes (28) Another pitcher from the 20's clump, doesn't measure up to Rixey and Faber.
   102. Ken Fischer Posted: February 07, 2005 at 11:38 AM (#1130044)
1944 Ballot

1-Lou Gehrig 489 WS
No brainer.

2-Frankie Frisch 366 WS
Frisch was a winner. He was in post season 8 out of 19 seasons…very impressive for a non-Yankee in the days when the only post season was the World Series.

3-Dick Lundy
Besides being a great hitter Lundy is considered by Negro League expert John Holway to be one of the best defensive shortstops of all-time.

4-George Van Haltren 344 WS
8 of Van’s top 10 similar batters are in the other hall. I consider Van at the top of the list of the many worthy outfielders with long credentials waiting to get in the HOM. The fact he was traded to Pitt for an HOM caliber player (J. Kelley) is one more reason he deserves election.

5-Wally Schang 245 WS
He moves up another slot on my ballot. Schang belongs in a special group of most overlooked ballplayers…Schang, Dahlen, B. Mathews, Start, Pike, Barnes, B. Johnson, etc. He played for several flag winners. Schang had great plate discipline. At the age of 39 he led the AL in HBP.

6-Pete Browning 225 WS
Pete does have a down side…but is getting a raw deal due to his prime being in the AA. He was a key player relied on by his teammates for most of his career. Grey Ink looks favorable. The Players League year removes the AA discount as an obstacle for me.

7-Dick Redding
James & Neyer rank Redding’s fast ball #2 from 1910 – 1919 behind Walter Johnson. Dick would be in the other hall if the annual Negro league picks started in 1995 had continued for a couple more years. The Cannonball shut out Smoky Joe Williams twice in 1920…including a 5-0 win at Ebbets Field.

8-Bill Foster
So often put in shadow of his big brother…but still considered by many to be the best left-hander in the history of the Negro Leagues.

9-Goose Goslin 355 WS
Gray Ink is off the charts. Clemente is his comp. Pretty good company. Goose played in the hitter’s era of the 20s but was top notch…just overshadowed by the Ruths and Gehrigs.

10-Mickey Welch 354 WS
His win shares numbers show he was more than just the 1885 season. McCormick, Mullane and Mathews also deserve another look from the 19th Century.

11-Burleigh Grimes 286 WS
Grimes matches up well with the just elected Faber. His 270 wins and a high Grey Ink are impressive.

12-John Beckwith
After further study he makes my ballot. Read somewhere he once hit four HRs in a game at Crosley Field. Played for at least 13 teams. Read a lot about how he was a nasty guy…but he did manage for awhile…some boss didn’t think he was all bad.

13-Hughie Jennings 214 WS
Probably the #3 SS of the 90s after Davis & Dahlen.

14-Jake Beckley 318 WS
Like his career value. Connor, Crawford and O’Rourke and Clarke are all comps. Jake will eventually make into the HOM.

15-Eppa Rixey 315 WS
Rixey matches up well with Grimes & Faber. He had a long and interesting career. It could be divided into 3 parts…1-his early Phillies days…2-his prime with the Reds as a dominant starter and…3-his time as a spot starter and reliever as he continued to pitch for Cincy into his 40s. He is known for his time with the Reds but made it into the Series only once with the Phils early in his career.

Rixey back on. Sewell just misses. I have five pitchers after Rixey on my depth chart ahead of Griffith. I don’t see why he is still getting so much support. Clark may require another look.
   103. Rusty Priske Posted: February 07, 2005 at 02:03 PM (#1130082)
Groupthink wins again.

If someone wants to vote for a player from a Japanese league, they should be allowed to.

Saying that the player may "take the spot away" from an MLB player is ridiculous. If that MLB player can't get more votes than the Japanese League player, then he shouldn't be inducted.
   104. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2005 at 02:40 PM (#1130114)
Groupthink wins again.

Translation: I'm not getting my way, so that means the rest of the electorate are spineless dolts who can't make decisions on their own.

Look Rusty, I agree with the third paragraph of your post, but there were other reasons, too. As Joe pointed out, the goal of the project was comparative. The HOF doesn't include career Japanese, Cuban or Mexican players, so a true comparison can't be made if we elect Sadaharu Oh and the like to the HoM. That's why I changed my mind on the subject.

BTW, we could have a moratorium on electing career foreigners until we catch up to the HOF, couldn't we? They would have to wait a little longer, but that shouldn't be a big problem. I think this could be a viable compromise. There shouldn't be any major timeline problems either.
   105. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: February 07, 2005 at 02:55 PM (#1130127)
I've previously been in favor of the Foreign-Player Wing, and I still am. I just wanted to chime in to say that I concur with those who have said that this project is a comparative one. We're telling the Hall who they should have been picking among the universe of players their mission includes.

That's the one boundary I see as imperative to this project. In a way it's sort of like park effects. You can't compare a .300 hitter in Coors to one in Chavez Ravine without considering those effects. Unless we're considering players from the same universe as Coop'town, then most folks will just scratch their heads because the "park effect" of including foreign careers will become distracting.

That said, I love that someone placed that particular Japanese player on the ballot because I learned about someone I had no knowledge of. I would hope that voters will continue to share that sort of information by including foreign careers in their ballot commentary (and perhaps in their pHOMs) by using the parenthetical ballot placement that many have used to indicate an already elected HOMer who is entering a pHOM post-HOM induction (see Devin's entry for Cochrane, number 101).
   106. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2005 at 03:12 PM (#1130155)
I have 49 ballots counted at the present time. Still missing ballots from Joe, sunnyday2, Guapo, Tiboreau, Bleacher and jimd.
   107. robc Posted: February 07, 2005 at 04:06 PM (#1130225)

One thing missing from your post #87. You mentioned the Japanese issue coming up recently. It didnt. The Japnanese League players issue was a very old issue. I suggested the wing idea because that was the only thing that made sense after the original discussion. I have no idea what thread the original discussion occured on, Im not sure if it even survived the transfer to the new site. Anyway, that discussion made it clear that the constitution was supposed to be clear about Japanese-only players being ineligible, and I thought at the time it was. The Con seems to be missing a lot of changes that I thought went into it at one time. I wonder if we didnt lose an updated version of it in the site transfer?

Anyway, just wanted to get clear the history of the Japanese League discussions. It isnt a recent issue.
   108. Howie Menckel Posted: February 07, 2005 at 04:22 PM (#1130248)
"The HOF doesn't include career Japanese, Cuban or Mexican players, so a true comparison can't be made if we elect Sadaharu Oh and the like to the HoM."


I'll be surprised if this assent puts me in the 'groupthink' category, as I probably mildly annoy some people with my feeling that 'shiny new toy' has helped too many newcomers.
   109. Tiboreau Posted: February 07, 2005 at 06:45 PM (#1130531)
After a 10 day tour from San Francisco to Los Angeles as a member of my college's choir, I return just in time to be a part of the 1944 HoM election:

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Frankie Frisch—So, I hear that we have Mr. Frisch to blame thank, partially, for this project.
3. Goose Goslin—While he doesn’t have the peak value of Charley Jones or Hugh Duffy, Goslin’s career value more than makes up the difference.
4. John Beckwith—John’s spot on my ballot is mainly based on Gadfly’s inestimable opinion on his hitting and Chris Cobb’s Win Shares projections.
5. Bill Foster—Considered by many to be the third best pitcher in the history of the Negro Leagues. Chris Cobb compares him to Dazzy Vance and Stan Coveleski, and since I know practically nothing about Negro League pitchers that’s a good enough comparison for me.
6. Clark Griffith—While Waddell has better peak value (51.2 warp1 & 145 WS in 5 consecutive years vs. 45.7 & 143), Clark Griffith’s career advantage (45 more games, 320+ more IP, and 33 more WS) is enough to edge ahead of the Rube.
7. Charley Jones—A legitimate star of the ‘70s, I finally decided to give him credit for his blacklisted years, jumping him from just off the ballot to here.
8. Eppa Rixey—Did not have a great peak, but Eppa was consistently real good for a long time. I have rearranged pitchers on this "year’s" ballot due to a different balance of career vs. peak value than position players.
9. Hughie Jennings—Jennings has the highest peak of any of the available candidates. His peak also comprises of 73.4% of his warp1 and 70.1% of his WS. In the end, the brilliance of his peak outshines any questions I have regarding his career value.
10. Hugh Duffy—See comments on Edd Roush.
11. Edd Roush—Nearly indistinguishable from Duffy: 126 ops+ vs. 122; 109.7 warp1 and 315 WS (25.86 per 162) vs. 100.3 and 295 (27.51), giving Roush a slight career advantage IMO; 46.2 warp1 and 136 WS in best five consecutive years vs. 48.1 and 144, giving Duffy a slight advantage peak-wise.
12. Dobie Moore—Based off projections, estimates, and anecdotes, the Negro Leaguers are the wild cards of my HoM ballot. Called the "best unrecognized player" of the Negro Leagues by Bill James, and has been compared to Hughie Jennings.
13. Wes Ferrell—Comparable to Rube Waddell among peak pitchers, IMO. Waddell has the advantage in IP and ERA+; however, considering the difference in eras the gap in IP shrinks (if not balances in Ferrell’s favor), and his competent handling of the bat more than makes up the difference in ERA+, especially considering Waddell’s UER issues.
14. Gavy Cravath—"He played ball, and lived his life, with a minimum amount of effort and nervous energy." Cravath gets extra credit for his minor league performance, obviously, especially as the star of the Minneapolis Miners.
15. Rube Waddell—See comments on Wes Ferrell.

Joe Sewell—I see him as the third best infielder of his era when including Negro Leaguers Beckwith and Moore, and behind three other middle infielders: Jennings, Childs, and Doyle. So, Sewell falls just off my ballot.
Jake Beckley—Very good career numbers, however, his peak numbers are among the lowest of any candidates. Even with fielding adjustments, there are still other very good career, good peak guys I'd put ahead of him.
   110. Guapo Posted: February 07, 2005 at 07:42 PM (#1130632)
No ballot for me this year. I donated it to the war effort. (Plus, work has been too busy)
   111. Sean Gilman Posted: February 07, 2005 at 10:50 PM (#1130988)
As Joe pointed out, the goal of the project was comparative. The HOF doesn't include career Japanese, Cuban or Mexican players, so a true comparison can't be made if we elect Sadaharu Oh and the like to the HoM. That's why I changed my mind on the subject.


I just wanted to chime in to say that I concur with those who have said that this project is a comparative one. We're telling the Hall who they should have been picking among the universe of players their mission includes.

We're telling the HOF that their mission should include more 19th Century players, that the NA was a major league, that more negro league players deserve induction, that the 1930s were not the best era in baseball history. Why can we not also tell them that baseball is played in Japan, and that great, meritorious, players played there as well?

This "comparison to the HOF" argument just doesn't make any sense to me. If this was just about telling the HOF where it went wrong, we could just pick the players we think don't belong and replace them with that many players we think do belong. Two elections and it would be done.

I always thought this project was about honoring the most meritorious players in baseball history. If enough people think that a Japanese player is better than an American player, then aren't we bound to honor that Japanese player?
   112. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: February 07, 2005 at 11:21 PM (#1131025)
I'll get one in before the deadline, 8 p.m., right?
   113. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: February 07, 2005 at 11:42 PM (#1131055)
Still reworking everything, luckily the top of this year's ballot makes this a pretty easy year.

PA = Pennants Added
WSaR = Win Shares above replacement
WS = Win Shares

WS are adjusted to a 162 game season, based on team decisions. Replacement level has been tweaked upward (from 6.5 to 8.8 WS/season). ~337 IP = 162 G for a hitter.

1. Lou Gehrig (n/e) - (still need to figure his numbers). Not like it matters . . .

2. Goose Goslin (n/e) - (going from memory, don't have my sheet handy ~.850 PA, ~250 WSaR, ~375 WS). One of the lesser known greats. For a guy that didn't play for the Yankees or A's, it's pretty amazing he was a top player on a teams that won 2 World Series and 3 other pennants.

3. Frankie Frisch (3) - (.865 PA, 250 WSaR, 386 WS). The main reason we are all doing this project. Set the Hall of Fame back 35 years by putting all of his teammates in). Great player though.

4. Eppa Rixey (4) - (280-237 CJ, .687 PA, 206 WSaR, 331 WS) Rixey is clearly the top pitcher on this ballot. He'd be over 300 CJ wins (and around .770 PA and 370 WS) if he hadn't served in the military in 1918-19. 300 game winners are a rare breed (especially after 1892) and in just about any other conditions before 1985, Rixey would have been one. It's a shame that he's considered a mistake Hall of Famer by many because of his W-L record, which was tainted by pitching for some bad teams. He's every bit as good as Robin Roberts was, for example.

5. Charley Jones (5) - (.714 PA, 197 WSaR, 287 WS) Give him credit for his blackballed years at .0875 per year and he's at .889 PA. That's basically his 1878, he was better than that in 1879, 1884 and 1885. Throw in 33 WS per year and we're at 343. Top 7 in OPS+ in the league every year he played from 1876-85, and he played some CF too. Wow.

6. Hughie Jennings (off) - (don't have access to my spreadsheet right now) - The Sandy Koufax of position players. After looking everything over again, he's been moved back up. Crammed 9 years production into 5 magnificent seasons.

7. Clark Griffith (9) - (231-152 CJ, .765 PA, 216 WSaR, 320 WS). He rates as the top post 1893 pitcher on the ballot, by a long-shot - though earlier pitchers seem to have an advantage on PA (more innings in a season = more pennant impact). He falls behind Rixey when Rixey's war credit is included. It was also tougher for pitchers to have the same pennant impact in Rixey's era, so ties tend to go to the modern pitcher on this basis.

8. Bill Monroe (6) - (Esitmated 344 WS if you give him credit for A defense) Still not convinced he was better than Grant or Johnson, but I am confident he was a star.

9. Gavy Cravath (7) - (.533 PA, 152 WSaR, 220 WS) Too much to ignore - either he was a freak of nature or there's a lot missing. Just giving him 4 years of extra credit at .075 PA, or 29 WS per season (he was better than that 3 times in his 30s) moves him to 336 WS, .833 PA.

10. Jake Beckley (8) - (.712 PA, 215 WSaR, 369 WS) A very good player for a very long time, much better than an average player. 11 seasons over 20 WS, which is understated by about 2-3 per season because of WS undervaluing 1B in his era. That has a lot of value in my opinion.

Why the rush on McGinnity and the stonewalling of Griffith? I just don't get it. I think we were way too friendly to McGinnity, but I can't see how he'd be in and Griffith out - Griffith absolutely deserves eventual induction.

11. Wes Ferrell (n/e) - Great pitcher at his best and a good hitter. Combined value higher than I ever realized.

12. Bill Foster (10) - seems to me that he's similar to Coveleski, and this is about where I'd slot him.

13. Mike Griffin (off) - (don't have access to my spreadsheet right now) - We're forgetting about him guys. Great defense, very good offense and a star during the one league era, where it was tougher to stand out. Reassessment moves him back onto the ballot.

14. George Van Haltren (11) - (.898 PA, 259 WSaR, 412 WS; .774/225/361 not counting the pitching) - Most WS and WSaR among position players on the ballot. Nice, long, consistent career, very good player for a long time. Not a bad fielder, but not a great one either, pretty good hitter. Never had a monster year, he didn't make any Stats All-Star teams, but he also played mostly in a one-league era, where only 3 All-Star OFs were named per year, not 6. Should get a signficant bump for his pitching, though it is easy to forget about it.

15. Tommy Leach (12) - (.775 PA, 226 WSaR, 355 WS) Win Shares loves this guy. He's underrated as a 3B and overrated as a CF because of the time he played in, but in the end it's a wash. Sure it wasn't a great league, but that's an awful lot of WS to turn your back on. He's also the 3rd highest rated 3B to date by WARP3 - just a hair behind Cross and Groh.

dropping out . . .

16. Dobie Moore (13) - (Estimated 300-340 WS depending on war credit and defensive quality). Great player, career cut short.

17. Wally Schang (14) - (.567 PA, 174 WSaR, 262 WS) The best white catcher we've seen since Buck Ewing. 117 OPS+ that was OBP heavy (career .393 OBP) and he lasted 19 years, though he never played more than 134 games in a season. He rates higher on WS and WARP3 (70.8) than Charlie Bennett (.525, 154 WSaR, 239 WS, 68.4 WARP3).

Schang is miles ahead of Schalk (.390 PA, 120 WSaR, 206 WS), and as far as I can tell, any white catcher of the era 1910-30 era.

18. Jimmy Ryan (15) - (.809 PA, 235 WSaR, 378 WS) Great player from 1888-92, and a very good player during the remainder of his long career.

close but no cigar . . .

19. Edd Roush (16) - (.796 PA, 228 WSaR, 340 WS) Great player from 1917-1920. His peak was every bit as good as Sisler. Sisler 1916-1922: 145 WSaR. Roush's best 7 seasons 152 WSaR. Sisler, one season at 25 WSaR. Roush two above that and another at 24. The remainder of their careers isn't close. I can't see voting Sisler over Roush. Even giving Sisler at 10% overall bonus for 1B not being measured correctly (which wouldn't even apply to 2nd half of Sisler's career, where 1B became a more offensive position Roush is ahead on all three measures.

20. Ben Taylor (17) - (Estimated 326 WS) Almost a direct replica of Beckley. Says a lot about the tightness of the ballot.

21. Jim McCormick (18) - WARP and WS like him much better than Welch.

22. Hugh Duffy (19) - (.820 PA, 231 WSaR, 348 WS) What? The guy I bashed, bashed and bashed again? I guess I was discounting his 1891 too heavily. It needs to be deflated, but not as much as I had. I also laughed away his 1894 as a very good year, but not a historic one in context - again, I was probably too harsh there.

23. Vic Willis (20) - (251-203 CJ, .734 PA, 207 WSaR, 322 WS) - I like Mike Webber's pet too.

24. Spotswood Poles (21) - (~332 WS)
25. Dolph Luque (22) - (with 3 bonus seasons at roughly .500 I see him at 239-199 (207-166 CJ), .667 PA, 197 WSaR, 297 WS)
26. Frank Chance (23) - (.649 PA, 185 WSaR, 257 WS) - don't forget to give him a slight catcher boost if that's something you do . . .
27. Roger Bresnahan (24) - (.579 PA, 170 WSaR, 249 WS)
28. George Sisler (25) - (.660 PA, 190 WSaR, 317 WS) Most of what I want to say about him is covered in the Roush comment. Additionally, Sisler was a great player from 1916-22. 1B had more defensive responsibility and Sisler still hit like a great outfielder. I see as quite similar to Don Mattingly, but Sisler was able to sustain his greatness a little bit longer and would have to rank ahead if forced to choose among them. I give him a 7.7% bonus for playing 1B - this is the percentage of his pennants added that game before 1923 (the date I generally use as my cutoff for deadball the deadball 1B bonus).
29. Mickey Welch (26) - (302-215 CJ, 1.414 PA, 341 WSaR, 536 WS) - I can't tell if RSI or WARP tells the true story. Extremely divergent opinions. Sad to see that he died this year without being elected.

Others within shouting distance:

Close but can't even order them at this point: Dick Redding, Jose Mendez, Dick Lundy, Urban Shocker, Carl Mays, Burleigh Grimes (should I be giving him any military service credit?), Rube Waddell, Jack Quinn, Eddie Cicotte, Herb Pennock, Harry Hooper, Ed Konetchy, Joe Sewell, Travis Jackson, John Beckwith, Ed Williamson, Lave Cross, Pie Traynor, Herman Long, Sam Rice, Fielder Jones, Larry Doyle, Cupid Childs, John McGraw, Rabbit Maranville, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Mike Tiernan, Pete Browning, Kiki Cuyler, Waite Hoyt.
   114. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: February 07, 2005 at 11:49 PM (#1131060)
Just a note that I tweaked the above post about 5 minutes after posting it, to include Ferrell. I figured it was easier to edit the post (since I have that power) than to post a revision and confuse the ballot counters.
   115. jimd Posted: February 07, 2005 at 11:57 PM (#1131070)
Ballot for 1944

Read previous ballots if you want more depth on my reasons for all but the latest eligibles.

In the midst of revising my system (yet again). Maybe next election.

1) L. GEHRIG -- No denying.

2) F. FRISCH -- Good as Cochrane at his peak; much longer career.

3) H. JENNINGS -- Using rolling 5-year peaks for WARP-3, of those eligible, only he (and Lou) can claim to have been the "best player in baseball". All of the others have already been elected or are not yet eligible or are too obvious to mention; elected to my PHOM a quarter-century ago.

4) J. SEWELL -- Nice combination of WARP peak and career.

5) C. CHILDS -- Best offensive 2b of the 90's.

6) F. DUNLAP -- Great two-way player; bypassed for some reason.

7) W. FOSTER -- Top NeL pitcher needs some support.

8) W. FERRELL -- Great peak and longer than some of the other high peak pitchers.

9) G. GOSLIN -- Similar to Van Haltren but better.

10) H. DUFFY -- Underrated.

11) G. VAN HALTREN -- Not much more to say.

12) B. VEACH -- Good peak relative to great competition.

13) T. LEACH -- Pennants Added convinced me that my system underrates him.

14) J. BECKWITH -- Moving him up based on discussions.

15) G. SISLER -- Overrated but still good.

Just missing the cut are:
16-19) Fielder Jones, Jimmy Ryan, Rabbit Maranville, Harry Hooper,
20-23) Eppa Rixey, Dick Redding, Ned Williamson, Herman Long,
24-27) Wally Schang, Edd Roush, Dick Lundy, Jim McCormick,
28-31) Jose Mendez, Del Pratt, Gavy Cravath, Roger Bresnahan,
32-36) Sam Rice, Tommy Bond, Rube Waddell, Clark Griffith, Jake Beckley
   116. OCF Posted: February 08, 2005 at 12:04 AM (#1131084)
Thanks for the note Joe. I didn't see your ballot until it was the Ferrell version anyway. With 50 votes in, it is not only utterly clear who has been elected this year, but also just as clear who will be elected in 1945. (Early returns on the Manush and Lazzeri threads suggest that those two won't finish in the top 10, so we're continuing with the same top candidates as this year.)
   117. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2005 at 12:42 AM (#1131167)
Thanks for the note Joe. I didn't see your ballot until it was the Ferrell version anyway. With 50 votes in, it is not only utterly clear who has been elected this year, but also just as clear who will be elected in 1945.

With Jim's ballot, I have 52 ballots.
   118. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2005 at 12:44 AM (#1131174)
If you have any numbers, you can e-mail them to me now. Thanks!
   119. ronw Posted: February 08, 2005 at 12:56 AM (#1131193)
For those who care, RMc's #75 and #82, besides dropping Nawamura, switched Van Haltren and Browning.

On his final ballot (#82), Van Haltren was #10 and Browning #11.
   120. OCF Posted: February 08, 2005 at 01:10 AM (#1131213)
Thanks, Ron, I would have missed that. I know, it's just one point. And 52 ballots it is - I found the one I was missing, back on lower part of the first page. How does 1248, 1082, 822, 705, 489 sound as the numbers for the top 5?
   121. Paul Wendt Posted: February 08, 2005 at 01:43 AM (#1131263)
incredible --to someone who hasn't counted

maybe some voters erred?
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