BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1944 Ballot Results: The Hall of Merits Says Yes to “The Iron Horse” and “The Fordham Flash!”

Hall of Merit
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Monday, February 07, 2005

1944 Ballot Results: The Hall of Merits Says Yes to “The Iron Horse” and “The Fordham Flash!”

By unanimous vote (the fifth inductee to win that distinction), the Yankees’ tragic hero Lou Gehrig was inducted in his first year of eligibility.

In his second year of eligibility, second baseman great Frankie Frisch received the second most votes to win the second spot on the ballot and immortality.

First-year candidate Goose Goslin made a very strong showing and looks ready for induction himself in ‘45. Pitching star Wes Ferrell also made the top-ten as a newbie candidate.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Bill Foster (possibly in ‘45?), John Beckwith, Eppa Rixey, Clark Griffith, George Van Haltren and Jake Beckley.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Lou Gehrig              1248   52  52                                          
 2    3  Frankie Frisch          1082   51     35 11  2  1  1  1                        
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Goose Goslin             822   50      4 18  6  8  2  3  3  4  1              1
 4    4  Bill Foster              705   47      3  6 12  2  4  6  2  4  1  3  2  1  1   
 5    5  John Beckwith            489   37      3  1  2  3  7  2  2  4  1  4  3  2  1  2
 6    6  Eppa Rixey               422   36         1  1  2  5  2  6  4  5  1  1     4  4
 7    7  Clark Griffith           370   30            3  5  2  2  4  2  3  2  2  1  2  2
 8  n/e  Wes Ferrell              334   28      1  2  4     2     3  2  1  3  2  2  3  3
 9   10  George Van Haltren       308   24         2  4  1  3  1     3  3  2  1  3  1   
10    8  Jake Beckley             304   25      1  1  2  1  1  3  4     3  3     1  3  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   11  Joe Sewell               301   23            4  3  2  2  3  3  2  1     1     2
12   12  Hughie Jennings          295   23         3  2  4  2     2  2     2  1  1  2  2
13    9  George Sisler            286   24      1  1  4     2  1  1     4  2  2     2  4
14   14  Hugh Duffy               274   24            2  2  2  3  1  1  4     1  4  2  2
15   13  Rube Waddell             230   23               1  1  2  1  3  2  1  3  3  3  3
16   15  Tommy Leach              219   20            1  3     1  1  3  2  2  1  2     4
17   16  Edd Roush                207   19               1  1  2  1  2  2  5  1  2  2   
18   17  Mickey Welch             200   14      2  2     2  1     1  1  1     3  1      
19   19  Cupid Childs             188   16               2  1  3  1     3  1  3  2      
20   18  Pete Browning            185   14            3  1  2  2     2  1  1  1        1
21   21  Cannonball Dick Redding  159   16               1     1  1  1  2  2  2  3  2  1
22   20  Burleigh Grimes          151   13               2     3  1  1  1  2     1  1  1
23   22  Charley Jones            146   10      1  1     2  1  1  1     1  2            
24   25  José Méndez              131   11               1  2  2  1     1  1  1     2   
25   24  Jimmy Ryan               119   11                  1  2  2        1  2  1  2   
26   28  Roger Bresnahan          114   12                     1  1  1  2  1     2  3  1
27   26  Dobie Moore              101   13                                 1  3  4  2  3
28   23  Larry Doyle               98    9                  1  2     1  1  1  1     1  1
29   29  Dick Lundy                98    8         2     1        1     1        2     1
30   32  Bill Monroe               94   10                     1  2           1  4  1  1
31   27  Sam Rice                  94    9                  2     2           1  2  1  1
32   30  Wally Schang              92    7      1        2           2              1  1
33  n/e  Kiki Cuyler               57    6               1              1        2  2   
34   31  Pie Traynor               57    5         1                 1  1  1           1
35   33  George J. Burns           49    6                              1     2  1     2
36   34  Ben Taylor                47    4                  1     1  1              1   
37   35T Gavy Cravath              43    4                  1        1        1     1   
38   39  Vic Willis                41    4                     1        1     1     1   
39T  35T Harry Hooper              40    4                           1     1  2         
39T  37  John McGraw               40    4                           1     1  2         
41   38  Carl Mays                 33    4                                    3        1
42   47  Urban Shocker             23    3                                    1  1     1
43   44  Ed Cicotte                22    2                  1                       1   
44   46  Lave Cross                20    2                     1                       1
45   40  Spotswood Poles           18    2                                 1     1      
46T  43  Wilbur Cooper             16    2                                 1           1
46T  49  Bobby Veach               16    2                                    1     1   
46T  48  Hack Wilson               16    2                                    1     1   
49  n/e  Fred Dunlap               15    1                  1                           
50   54T Dolf Luque                14    1                     1                        
51T  59  Donie Bush                13    1                        1                     
51T  51  Ed Konetchy               13    1                        1                     
51T  54T Tom York                  13    1                        1                     
54  n/e  Waite Hoyt                12    1                           1                  
55T  56T Buzz Arlett               10    1                                 1            
55T n/e  Duke Farrell              10    1                                 1            
55T  42  Rabbit Maranville         10    1                                 1            
58T n/e  Mike Griffin               8    1                                       1      
58T  56T Sam Leever                 8    1                                       1      
60T  41  Addie Joss                 7    1                                          1   
60T  45  Ed Williamson              7    1                                          1   
62T  61T Dave Bancroft              6    1                                             1
62T  60  Jim McCormick              6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Tommy Bond(56T), Frank Chance(53),
 Judy Johnson(50), Ray Schalk(61T), Ross Youngs(52).

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2005 at 10:28 PM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2005 at 01:50 AM (#1131275)

hot topics

2. Howie Menckel Posted: February 08, 2005 at 02:51 AM (#1131378)

Alltime vote pts through 1944, top 15

Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
VAN HALTREN 12035.5
DUFFY 11826
JENNINGS 11714
Bennett 11503
BECKLEY 11250
Caruthers 10704
BROWNING 10609.5
RYAN 9916
GRIFITH 9734
H Stovey 9576
WADDELL 9222
Start 8378.5
CHILDS 8343
(WELCH 8214)

3. OCF Posted: February 08, 2005 at 06:58 AM (#1131962)

Fred Dunlap should be in 49th place with 15 points (one 6th place vote, from jimd). Everyone from Luque downward should have one place added.

4. OCF Posted: February 08, 2005 at 07:03 AM (#1131976)

Average consensus score 9.2. Highest possible 23. Top three: Chris Cobb 19, Howie Menckel 18, Ardo 17. Lowest two: karlmagnus -11, Eric C -6; no one else below -2.

5. Kelly in SD Posted: February 08, 2005 at 07:48 AM (#1132075)

Congrats to Mr. Gehrig. Sorry for the wait. Sorry we couldn't make an exception to the rule for a dying man.
I'll quit bellyaching about this, but if there was one situation that called for an exception to the rules...

Oh, Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, and Wally West wanted to welcome a Flash to the Hall of Merit.

6. DavidFoss Posted: February 08, 2005 at 07:55 AM (#1132096)

That's now three HOM-ers from Fordham. Ed Walsh, Frankie Frisch... and Grandma Murphy.

7. karlmagnus Posted: February 08, 2005 at 01:11 PM (#1132263)

Having Frisch off my ballot, the only one to do so, will give me a GREAT negative consensus score :-)) Looks like I may achieve the same feat with Bill/Willie Foster this year!

8. jhwinfrey Posted: February 08, 2005 at 05:01 PM (#1132552)

I waded back through all of the old ballot results to create some "DanG" charts of my own. I'm tracking many of the unelected players by percentage of possible points received in each election.
There are definitely some clear trends--other than Goose Goslin and Bill Foster, Ned Williamson is the only player to receive at least 45% of the vote in his first year on the ballot but not eventually be inducted. And Hugh Duffy and George Van Haltren are the only other unelected players to receive more than 45% support in any election. Conversely, only three players have been inducted after receiving less than 25% of the possible points in their first year: Dickey Pearce, Rube Foster, and Lip Pike. John Beckwith, who debuted with 23.3% support, is mirroring Foster's candidacy closely, and could join that group.

Here are my charts; "percentage" refers to percentage of total possible points:

Highest percentage received:
100% - Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig
99.7 - Dan Brouthers
99.4 - Pete Alexander
99.3 - Ty Cobb
99.2 - Oscar Charleston
98.9 - Kid Nichols
98.8 - Nap Lajoie
98.4 - Ed Delahanty
96.5 - Christy Mathewson
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby

Highest initial pct. among players not yet elected:
(debut ballot)
65.9 - Goose Goslin
50.0 - Bill Foster
47.1 - Ned Williamson
44.4 - Hugh Duffy
40.4 - Jimmy Ryan
39.9 - Joe Sewell
37.8 - Eppa Rixey
37.8 - Hughie Jennings
36.4 - Pete Browning
33.3 - Jake Beckley

Highest pct. received among players not yet elected:
(any ballot)
65.9 - Goose Goslin
56.5 - Bill Foster
51.1 - Hugh Duffy
48.3 - George Van Haltren
47.1 - Ned Williamson
43.5 - Jake Beckley
43.2 - Clark Griffith
41.4 - Eppa Rixey
41.3 - Jimmy Ryan
39.9 - Joe Sewell

Lowest initial pct. among inductees:
0.9 - Dickie Pearce
12 - Rube Foster
17.7 - Lip Pike
27.5 - Stan Coveleski
27.8 - Max Carey
28.4 - Cal McVey
30 - Pud Galvin
34.2 - Joe Jackson
36.6 - Charlie Bennett
37.5 - Bob Caruthers

Lowest pct. when inducted:
40.5 - Lip Pike
44.9 - Bill Terry*
45.6 - Max Carey
46.3 - Red Faber*
48.6 - Rube Foster
52 - Dickie Pearce
54.6 - Sam Thompson
56.5 - Dazzy Vance
56.6 - Bob Caruthers
60 - Pete Hill*
(* indicates first-ballot inductees)

And of the players I'm tracking, 9 received their lowest support yet in the 1944 election:
Joe Sewell - 24.1
Edd Roush - 16.6
Burleigh Grimes - 12.1
Jimmy Ryan - 9.5
Sam Rice - 7.5
Wally Schang - 7.4
Pie Traynor - 4.6
Harry Hooper - 3.2
Ned Williamson - 0.6

If Williamson falls much farther, he'll supplant Mike Tiernan as the "most forgotten" candidate. Tiernan debuted at 28.4% and rose to 35.4% before eventually falling off everyone's ballots.

9. The Honorable Ardo Posted: February 08, 2005 at 06:16 PM (#1132673)

Of jhwinfrey's nine "lowest support yet" candidates, I consider Roush (5 top 5 finishes in OPS+), Ryan (slightly more career and peak than Van Haltren), and Williamson (close comp. to HoMer Ezra Sutton) highly under-rated.

10. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2005 at 07:02 PM (#1132761)

That's now three HOM-ers from Fordham. Ed Walsh, Frankie Frisch... and Grandma Murphy.

I actually have a few relatives that grduated from there. One of my aunts used to teach there during the eighties.

OCF:

I took care of that problem. Thanks!

11. Jim P Posted: February 09, 2005 at 05:14 PM (#1134437)

Hi folks,

Sorry if this is off-topic a bit, but I'm soliciting opinions. I'm on the Hall of Fame Committee for ultimate frisbee, and we're in the process of figuring out how to pick candidates.http://www1.upa.org/ultimate/hall-of-fame

In some ways, it will be like picking Negro League players from baseball. There are almost no reliable individual stats to base decisions on, no all-star teams, only subjective evaluations plus team results. On the plus side, there are many people still around who played with and against the candidates.

Are there any lessons you all learned on picking players with incomplete information? How many subjective evaluations is enough? How can you figure out the individual's merits 20 years after the fact?

Thanks for any help.
Jim

12. robc Posted: February 09, 2005 at 07:36 PM (#1134750)

Im dissappointed that the "80 Mold" has to enter thru a "side door" instead of being inducted like everyone else. :) Does 3 years of intramural play in the late 80s and early 90s make me eligible for induction?

13. Jim P Posted: February 09, 2005 at 10:41 PM (#1135140)

Does 3 years of intramural play in the late 80s and early 90s make me eligible for induction?
Well, that depends on how you do on the modified Keltner List, I suppose. Did your team win intramurals thanks to your stunning play? Do they have your picture up in the gym?

Seriously, though, how do you rate historical players if you don't have stats or MVP votes? Do you place a lot of weight on things like leadership and intangibles?

14. DavidFoss Posted: February 09, 2005 at 11:46 PM (#1135224)

Seriously, though, how do you rate historical players if you don't have stats or MVP votes? Do you place a lot of weight on things like leadership and intangibles?

Although many players have been inducted on data not available in Total Baseball or baseball-reference.com, we have been able to obtain data for all of our candidates.

Negro League and 1860's data has been accumulated by a number of historians from team scorebooks and newspapers, annuals and periodicals. The data found is not as comprehensive as what is available for MLB and these historians are looking for more sources all the time. Its surely not just anecdotal.

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Monday, February 07, 2005

1944 Ballot Results: The Hall of Merits Says Yes to “The Iron Horse” and “The Fordham Flash!”

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