BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1947 Results: Grove and Hartnett, WS Combatants in ‘29, Reunite as the Newest Hall of Meriters!

Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, March 22, 2005

1947 Results: Grove and Hartnett, WS Combatants in ‘29, Reunite as the Newest Hall of Meriters!

In his first year of eligibility, A’s and Bosox ace Lefty Grove became the sixth unanimous selection in the history of the Hall of Merit (our fiftieth election!).

Another newbie, legendary backstop Gabby Hartnett was the electorate’s choice for the second spot. He earned a robust 92% of the vote.

Jud Wilson, another first-year candidate, made a big splash with the voters and will be certainly elected sometime in the future.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Mule Suttles (still looking strong!), John Beckwith, Eppa Rixey, Wes Ferrell, Earl Averill, Hughie Jennings and Clark Griffith.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Lefty Grove             1296   54  54                                          
 2  n/e  Gabby Hartnett          1193   54     48  2  1  1        1                 1   
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Jud Wilson               769   49      2 17  8  4  3  4  4  1  1  2     1  1  1
 4    3  Mule Suttles             718   51      1  4  7  9  4  7  4  7     1  3  2  1  1
 5    4  John Beckwith            578   43         8  5  4  2  4  5  3  2  2  1     5  2
 6    5  Eppa Rixey               386   33         1  2     5  2  2  5  5  3  2  2  2  2
 7    7  Wes Ferrell              359   31         1  5  1  3  2  2     1  5  3  1  3  4
 8    6  Earl Averill             337   30         1  2  2  2     1  3  3  5  5  4  2   
 9    9  Hughie Jennings          333   25         3  4  4  2  1  1  3  1     1  1  2  2
10    8  Clark Griffith           303   25         1  1  3  4  2  1  4  1     1  4  1  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   11  Jake Beckley             295   25      1     2  3  2  1  1  2  1  3  3  2  1  3
12   10  George Sisler            283   23      1  4     2  1     1  2  1  5  1  1  2  2
13   14  Joe Sewell               274   21            2  5  2  3  2  1     1  1  3  1   
14   13  George Van Haltren       270   21      1  3        4  1  2  1  3  1  1  2  1  1
15   12  Hugh Duffy               262   22            1  3  1  2  3  2  4  1  1     4   
16   15  Edd Roush                236   22         1  1  1     3  1  2  1  2  2  3  3  2
17   16  Rube Waddell             225   20         1  2     1  2     2  3  1  3  2  2  1
18   17  Mickey Welch             196   14         4  2  1     2        2     2        1
19   18  Tommy Leach              167   16               2        2  3  2     1  2  2  2
20   21  Pete Browning            162   12         1     1  3  2  2  1        1  1      
21   22  Cannonball Dick Redding  157   13            1  1  2     2     2  2  2  1      
22   20  Cupid Childs             156   14                  3  1  1  1  3  1  1  1     2
23   19  Dick Lundy               133   12            1  1     1  1  1  2  1     2  1  1
24   24  Roger Bresnahan          129   12               1     1  1  2  1  2  2     1  1
25   25  Charley Jones            129   10            2  1  2  1        1     1  1  1   
26   23  Burleigh Grimes          122   10            2     1  1  1     1  1  1  2      
27   26  José Méndez              116   10                  2     2  1  1  2  1  1      
28   30  Larry Doyle              108   10                  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1     1
29   29  Wally Schang             101    9         1        1     2        2     2     1
30   28  Bill Monroe               99   11                     1  2           2  1  3  2
31   32  Sam Rice                  97    8               1  1  1  1     1  1  2         
32   34  Jimmy Ryan                92    8            1     1  1  2                 2  1
33   31  Dizzy Dean                87    8            1  1     1     1        1     1  2
34   27  Dobie Moore               69    8               1                 1     2  3  1
35   33  Pie Traynor               68    7         1                 1  1     1        3
36   35  Gavy Cravath              57    5            1     1           1        1     1
37   37T Carl Mays                 53    6                     1        1        1  2  1
38   37T John McGraw               52    5                     2           1     1     1
39   36  Ben Taylor                48    5                     1        1     1  1     1
40   41  George J. Burns           46    5                        1     1  1           2
41   40  Kiki Cuyler               32    3                     1     1                 1
42   47  Vic Willis                31    4                                 1        3   
43   37T Ed Cicotte                30    3                     1           1           1
44   44  Harry Hooper              28    3                              1     1  1      
45   42T Wally Berger              26    2               1                 1            
46   49  Ed Williamson             23    3                                    1  1     1
47   45T Tony Lazzeri              18    2                              1           1   
48T  59T Hack Wilson               17    2                              1              1
48T  45T Addie Joss                17    2                                    1  1      
48T  50  Bobby Veach               17    2                                 1        1   
51T  52T Tommy Bond                13    1                        1                     
51T  52T Ed Konetchy               13    1                        1                     
53T  57  Fred Dunlap               12    1                           1                  
53T  52T Dolf Luque                12    1                           1                  
53T  52T Tony Mullane              12    1                           1                  
56T  66T Donie Bush                11    1                              1               
56T  58  Jack Quinn                11    1                              1               
58   48  Spotswood Poles           10    1                                 1            
59T  59T Wilbur Cooper              9    1                                    1         
59T  62T Fielder Jones              9    1                                    1         
59T  59T Sam Leever                 9    1                                    1         
62T  64  Waite Hoyt                 8    1                                       1      
62T  62T Urban Shocker              8    1                                       1      
64  n/e  Buddy Myer                 7    1                                          1   
65T  42T Buzz Arlett                6    1                                             1
65T  65  Mike Griffin               6    1                                             1
65T  56  Heinie Manush              6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Newt Allen(51), Jim McCormick(66T).

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 12:45 AM | 30 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 01:12 AM (#1210359)

Since I haven't received any tallies yet, there might be an error(s) in the numbers above. I will correct them when pointed out.

2. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: March 22, 2005 at 01:26 AM (#1210378)

Okay, I've decided to come up with a Excel spreadsheet to total up how many points I've given each player since the start of the project. (I've been doing it by hand, but a)it's a pain, and b)I'm pretty sure I've messed up along the way.) Assuming I can get it to work, I figured I'd put a generic version up on the Yahoo site for people to use. My question is, are there any functions that people can think of to include? I already plan to have:

-number of ballot appearences
-highest vote received for each player
-comparison of Offical HoM votes and Personal HoM votes

And just for readability, is there a function in Excel that would convert a number (5) to a placement (5th)?

I just thought of Year of Election, but I'm not sure I can make that work in the format I'm planning.

Any thoughts are welcome, but at this moment, I have a train to catch.

3. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 01:33 AM (#1210388)

I'm trying to track down discrepancies. I seem to have several. Here's the first one: Ferrell does have an 8th place vote, and Dean a 7th place vote. Look at Brent's ballot (post #81).

I'll have to quit for now, but will be back later tonight trying to reconcile this.

4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 01:40 AM (#1210394)

Here's the first one: Ferrell does have an 8th place vote, and Dean a 7th place vote. Look at Brent's ballot (post #81).

Corrected. Thanks!

5. Howie Menckel Posted: March 22, 2005 at 02:47 AM (#1210466)

Anyone with all-time votes for EVERYONE, feel free to post here or on a discussion thread.
thanks!

Alltime voting pts through 1947, top 15

Pike 13399
VAN HALTREN 12946.5
JENNINGS 12792
DUFFY 12703
Thompson 12349
BECKLEY 12171
Bennett 11503
BROWNING 11140.5
GRIFITH 10787
Caruthers 10704
RYAN 10214
WADDELL 9978
H Stovey 9576
CHILDS 8886
WELCH 8835

6. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:27 AM (#1210514)

Van Haltren is probably 2 years away from becoming the HOM's most prolific vote-getter. It'll be a good race to see whether Jennings can overtake the aged CFer before GVH laps Lipman.

7. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 22, 2005 at 04:08 AM (#1210597)

Devin,

Ask and you will receive. I just took the ballot counter and adapted it by putting the year where our names usually go and cross-checking to be certain that I'd got all the elected candidates in the vote-getter column.

Here's all the players who I've, thus far, given triple-digit support to in my 18-year voting history. One caveat: I've treated the one-man elections as two-man elections for simplicity's sake. No one should be very surprised to see this group coming from me...

NAME......HOM PTS...# VOTES...AVG SLOT
GVH.......335.......18.........3.9
Poles.....247.......17.........6.5
Duffy.....239.......15.........5.9
Jennings..176.......16........10.0
Mendez....164.......13.........8.4
Childs....147.......13.........9.7
Burns.....136.......11.........8.6
Rixey.....127........9.........6.9
Roush.....120.......11........10.1
Monroe....114.......11........10.6
Beckwith..100........8.........8.5

Leach is next at 97, then no candidate is a threat to hit trips for a longggg time because the next highest guy on any of my recent ballots is Suttles at just 30.

Still-eligible candidates I've only voted for once, you ask?

Griffin
Mullane
Ferrell
Welch
Cravath
Chance
Sisler
Wilson (Jud)

Thanks for the idea Devin, this is fun; I'll be keeping up with it from now on!

8. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:26 AM (#1210688)

Aaahhh, I think I spent the evening re-inventing the wheel, and it's not as good as the original. (Since I don't tally, I had never bothered to check out the ballot counter.) Dr. C, what might be the way to go is to set up different workbooks for each type of year (Elect 1, Elect 2, etc) and then total all of them up. I've basically got it all on one page, but it's not done nearly as neatly.

9. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 07:57 AM (#1210840)

{i}Here's the first one: Ferrell does have an 8th place vote, and Dean a 7th place vote. Look at Brent's ballot (post #81).{/i}

That should have said Jennings, not Ferrell. Jennings has an 8th place vote.

10. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 08:03 AM (#1210842)

Buddha (#106) has Van Haltren 14th and Ferrell 15th; John's tally seems to have those interchanged.

11. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 08:27 AM (#1210848)

Monroe has two 15th place votes, not one, and I have him at 99 points, not 93. On this one, I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I've also got discepencies involving 12th place votes with Leach, Sewell, Hooper (mdb1mdb1 had a 12th place vote for Hooper that you missed; I haven't tracked down the other one).

I've got a bucketload of 1 point discrepancies. You still haven't fixed the fact that Brent voted for Dean.

I give up for now - can you recheck some things from your side?

12. Rusty Priske Posted: March 22, 2005 at 01:11 PM (#1210898)

GVH's slow slide is sad.

He should already be in, imo. :(

13. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 02:53 PM (#1210958)

I need someone to send a tally over to me. Ron? Evan?

14. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:04 PM (#1210975)

I've got a bucketload of 1 point discrepancies. You still haven't fixed the fact that Brent voted for Dean.

I fixed it last night, OCF. Unless there was another error with Dean.

15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:42 PM (#1211043)

Corrected one more discrepancy between Hooper and Sewell. That's all I could find.

16. jhwinfrey Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:45 PM (#1211048)

Congrats to Lefty Grove, who joins the elite corps of Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, and Lou Gehrig.

Congrats also to Gabby Hartnett, who narrowly bested Louis Santop to become the most well-supported catcher yet inducted...

Top vote percentage, Catchers:
1. Gabby Hartnett -- 92.1
2. Louis Santop -- 92.0
3. Mickey Cochrane -- 88.3
4. Buck Ewing -- 74.7
5. Charlie Bennett -- 60.9

(Part-time Catchers)
Deacon White -- 94.3
King Kelly -- 84.0

Jud Wilson moves into the #2 slot for the highest support achieved by the holdovers...

Unelected Players, Highest Pct. Received, Any Election:
1. Mule Suttles -- 59.6
2. Jud Wilson -- 59.3
3. John Beckwith -- 51.4
4. Hugh Duffy -- 51.1
5. George Van Haltren -- 48.3

With three more strong newcomers, none of the holdovers were able to post new highs this election, but several fell to new lows of support:

Highs
None

Lows
Mule Suttles -- 55.4
Eppa Rixey -- 29.8
Earl Averill -- 26.0
Rube Waddell -- 17.4
Burleigh Grimes -- 9.5
Harry Hooper -- 1.5

We'll see if any of them can rebound in '48!

17. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:50 PM (#1211057)

Congrats also to Gabby Hartnett, who narrowly bested Louis Santop to become the most well-supported catcher yet inducted...

Of the full-time catchers, I agree, but White can be shown to be #1 for multi-positional players that had the most value at catcher (as you also show).

18. DavidFoss Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:51 PM (#1211058)

Cool stuff jhwinfrey. Another interesting think to track would be 'near misses' by the uninducted. I think Sewell missed induction by 13 votes in 1940 (don't know how many percent that is). I don't know if anyone can beat that.

19. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:57 PM (#1211067)

Monroe has two 15th place votes, not one, and I have him at 99 points, not 93. On this one, I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I found it, OCF. I had Moore instead of Monroe for Ron's ballot.

Sorry about the mess, but I really had to rush things along this week, Not having the extra tallies also made it difficult for me to spot any errors with my own tally.

20. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 04:55 PM (#1211152)

We're in agreement now. Thanks for putting up with me, John.

21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:01 PM (#1211161)

We're in agreement now. Thanks for putting up with me, John.

Not a problem, OCF. I want it right, too.

22. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:24 PM (#1211180)

54 voters, up one from 1946. ",,, flaxseed", who returned from a long hibernation for 1946, didn't vote in 1947. mdb1mdb1, a regular, returned from having missed 1946. And stephen appeared for the first time since 1927.

The average consensus score was +8.9, slightly behind the +9.8 and +9.2 of 1943-44 but ahead of the +6.9 of 1946.

The top 6 consensus scores: Chris Cobb 18, Howie Menckel 18, andrew siegel 17, favre 17, OCF 16, Tiboreau 16. There were also four 15's and three 14's.

The bottom 5 consensus scores:Mike Webber 0, Rusty Priske 0, Dolf Lucky 0, karlmagnus -1, yest -15.

yest's ballot set two records for my 27 years of tracking consensus scores: furthest below average, and furthest below the next lowest voter. How did he do this? He agreed with the unanimous vote for Grove, but after that:

His 14th place vote for Hartnett was the lowest placement of anyone (second lowest was a #8).

He didn't vote for Jud Wilson, Suttles, Beckwith, Rixie, Ferrell, and Averill, the #3 through #9 overall vote getters.

He was the best friend of Sisler, Traynor, Joss, Hack Wilson, and Manush.

23. jhwinfrey Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:29 PM (#1211184)

Here's my list of personal voting history--not surprisingly, Mickey Welch and Jake Beckley are well in the lead. They're also the only two players to make my ballot all 22 times. Welch is the only player I've put 1st on my ballot more than once--and he's been there 8 times.

Like Dr. Chaleeko, I treated all of the elections as elect-two years for simplicity's sake.

Points (ballots)
1. Mickey Welch -- 447 (22)
2. Jake Beckley -- 403 (22)
3. Ben Taylor -- 182 (14)
4. Tommy Leach -- 157 (12)
5. Jose Mendez -- 155 (16)
6. Carl Mays -- 149 (13)
7. Eppa Rixey -- 138 (9)
8. Rube Waddell -- 133 (9)
9. Jim McCormick -- 121 (14)
10. Burleigh Grimes -- 118 (8)
11. Dickey Pearce -- 113 (6)

Dick Redding is on the cusp, with 98, but the next likely candidates to hit 100 are Edd Roush, with 68, and John Beckwith, with 59.

Unelected players who have only appeared on my ballot once:
Jud Wilson
Pie Traynor
Oliver Marcelle
Jules Thomas

24. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:37 PM (#1211194)

jhwinfrey, your consensus score has been oscillating between near average and well below average. Your two low points were 1938 (14 points below average) and 1945 (10 points below average). For 1947, you were back to a consensus score of 8, just 1 point below average.

25. Evan Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:51 PM (#1211221)

John-

I agree with the updated count.

26. ronw Posted: March 22, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1211229)

Sorry guys I didn't have time to tally last week. I should be back in tallying mode for '48.

27. Howie Menckel Posted: March 22, 2005 at 06:08 PM (#1211248)

Funny that Chris Cobb does so well on consensus in no small part from people agreeing with his own picks.
Meanwhile, I don't follow Chris's picks all that faithfully. But I do have a lower tolerance and staying power for 'longshots,' which are created in part from others' allegiances to Chris's excellent research.
Plus I've had some good success, I think, for long stretches in pushing candidates like Browning, Childs, Welch, and especially Griffith - and knocking others like Van Haltren and Duffy. In each case, that would boost my consensus score.

So eventually, CC and I often wind up with similar results, from quite different directions.

28. OCF Posted: March 22, 2005 at 06:40 PM (#1211289)

Consensus score minus average consensus score:

Average over the most recent 5 years:

Howie Menckel +9.6
Chris Cobb +8.6
Ardo +7.8
Tiboreau +7.0
OCF +6.8
...
Gadfly -7.6
EricC -11.6
karlmagnus -14.7
yest -14.8
Guapo -15.5 (based on one year only)

Average over all years since 1921, small samples removed:
Ardo +7.6
jschmeagol +7.5
andrew siegel +7.4
Tiboreau +7.3
Howie Menckel +7.2
...
EricC -7.6
Gadfly -7.6
KJOK -8.5
yest -9.7
Guapo -12.0

Most dramatic taming of an outlier -David C. Jones, consensus score minus average score:

1945: -16
1946: -3
1047: +2

29. Rick A. Posted: March 23, 2005 at 12:09 AM (#1212059)

Anyone with all-time votes for EVERYONE, feel free to post here or on a discussion thread.

Howie,

I have all time votes for everyone, but I see a few discrepancies between what I have and what you've posted above. I'll recheck my spreadsheet to see if the error is on my end.

30. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: March 29, 2005 at 11:49 PM (#1223100)

Well, I finally got my "Ballot Compiler" worked out (tax season's been interfering), and I'll try to post it at the Yahoo site (although Yahoo Groups has been working about as well as BTF today.) It's big and clunky and someone who knows what they're doing in Excel could make it look much nicer, but I doubt it's worth the effort.

There's a more detailed instruction note I'll post with it, but the highlights:
-There's rows for each type of election (Elect-1, Elect-2, etc), with the years listed. Just put the names in order under the proper year, and it'll do the rest
-Names are last names, except when there's duplicates, which are in the format: E. Collins, J. Collins. Check the instructions for the full list, there are more than you'd think (Mickey Welch fans, pay attention!)
-There's another worksheet which presents the results, sorted about 6 different ways. The one for Highest Rank is tricky, you have to sort by a hidden column and it's ascending instead of descending.
-It has all the HoM inductees listed so it can sort out the unelected, but you'll need to update that going forward.

Anyway, it'll be there for anyone who wants to use it.

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005

1947 Results: Grove and Hartnett, WS Combatants in ‘29, Reunite as the Newest Hall of Meriters!

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