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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, April 04, 20051948 Ballot Results: Hall of Merit Voters Decide That Gehringer and Wilson are Worthy!In his first year of eligibility, second base great Charlie Gehringer earned a sparkling 98% of the vote for HoM induction. Negro League star Jud Wilson was selected (the thirteenth Negro Leaguer so far) for the second spot in his second year of eligibility. White Sox ace Ted Lyons made a strong impression in his first year of eligibility. Rounding out the top-ten were: Mule Suttles, John Beckwith, Eppa Rixey, Wes Ferrell, Earl Averill, George Sisler and Clark Griffith. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Charlie Gehringer 1198 51 45 3 1 1 1 2 3 Jud Wilson 938 50 3 21 4 7 2 2 3 2 1 1 3 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 n/e Ted Lyons 692 45 7 7 6 4 4 2 4 2 2 1 2 1 3 4 4 Mule Suttles 684 46 3 11 5 1 6 4 6 2 3 1 2 1 1 5 5 John Beckwith 604 44 3 5 6 6 2 5 3 3 2 2 1 3 3 6 6 Eppa Rixey 381 31 1 2 2 4 1 4 2 6 4 2 2 1 7 7 Wes Ferrell 337 27 1 3 1 2 2 2 1 1 3 2 4 3 2 8 8 Earl Averill 317 27 1 1 3 2 1 1 4 1 3 5 3 2 9 12 George Sisler 315 25 1 2 2 3 1 1 2 2 1 1 5 4 10 10 Clark Griffith 313 25 1 3 4 2 3 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 9 Hughie Jennings 297 21 3 1 5 2 1 2 2 1 3 1 12 11 Jake Beckley 286 24 1 1 1 3 1 2 4 2 2 1 4 2 13 14 George Van Haltren 254 20 1 1 1 4 1 2 1 5 1 1 1 1 14 13 Joe Sewell 251 19 1 2 2 4 1 1 3 1 2 2 15 15 Hugh Duffy 240 19 1 1 5 1 2 2 1 2 1 3 16 18 Mickey Welch 211 14 2 3 1 1 3 2 2 17 n/e Cool Papa Bell 209 20 1 3 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 5 18 16 Edd Roush 198 18 1 1 2 2 2 3 2 1 2 2 19 17 Rube Waddell 190 17 1 1 3 1 1 3 1 2 2 1 1 20 22 Cupid Childs 163 15 1 1 3 1 2 2 1 1 3 21 23 Dick Lundy 155 13 1 2 1 1 2 3 1 2 22 20 Pete Browning 154 11 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 23 19 Tommy Leach 148 14 1 1 3 2 1 1 3 2 24 21 Cannonball Dick Redding 145 12 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 2 25 25 Charley Jones 135 10 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 26 26 Burleigh Grimes 131 11 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 27 27 José Méndez 120 10 1 1 3 2 2 1 28 24 Roger Bresnahan 119 11 1 1 1 3 1 1 3 29 29 Wally Schang 106 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 30 30 Bill Monroe 89 9 1 1 1 2 1 3 31 28 Larry Doyle 88 8 1 1 1 1 2 2 32 31 Sam Rice 80 7 1 2 1 1 1 1 33 32 Jimmy Ryan 79 7 2 2 1 1 1 34 33 Dizzy Dean 74 6 1 2 1 1 1 35 34 Dobie Moore 65 7 1 1 1 1 2 1 36 36 Gavy Cravath 62 5 1 1 1 1 1 37 n/e Lefty Gomez 56 6 2 2 2 38 35 Pie Traynor 48 4 1 1 1 1 39 39 Ben Taylor 43 4 1 1 1 1 40 38 John McGraw 37 4 1 1 1 1 41 42 Vic Willis 25 3 1 1 1 42T 40 George J. Burns 24 2 1 1 42T 43 Ed Cicotte 24 2 1 1 44 46 Ed Williamson 23 3 1 1 1 45 41 Kiki Cuyler 22 3 1 2 46 47 Tony Lazzeri 18 2 1 1 47 53T Tony Mullane 17 2 1 1 48T 48T Hack Wilson 16 2 1 1 48T 37 Carl Mays 16 2 1 1 50 51T Tommy Bond 13 1 1 51T 65T Buzz Arlett 12 2 2 51T 65T Heinie Manush 12 2 2 53T 53T Fred Dunlap 12 1 1 53T 53T Dolf Luque 12 1 1 55 56T Jack Quinn 11 1 1 56T 59T Wilbur Cooper 10 1 1 56T 58 Spotswood Poles 10 1 1 56T 48T Bobby Veach 10 1 1 59T 59T Fielder Jones 9 1 1 59T 59T Sam Leever 9 1 1 61T 48T Addie Joss 8 1 1 61T 64 Buddy Myer 8 1 1 63T 56T Donie Bush 7 1 1 63T 44 Harry Hooper 7 1 1 65 62T Urban Shocker 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Wally Berger(45), Mike Griffin(65T), Waite Hoyt(62T), Ed Konetchy(51T). John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: April 04, 2005 at 10:11 PM | 44 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 05, 2005 at 12:09 AM (#1232537)51 voters. Missing: Max Parkinson, mdb1mdb1, Mike Webber, stephen. Returning: Chris J.
Average consensus score: +5.5.
Highest consensus scores:
Howie Menckel 18
Chris Cobb 16
Tiboreau 14
Trevor 14
favre 14
Lowest consensus scores:
Al Peterson -4
Gadfly -4
sunnyday2 -4
karlmagnus -7
yest -18
Chris J. was always high-consensus before, and he came back in with a +11.
Rixey’s 300 IP advantage is mostly a product of the deadball era. Lyons was 1st or 2nd in IP 4 times. Eppa does have a logner career if you give him WWI credit (and no WWII credit for Ted).
Lyons was a better hitter.
Lyons did much better in MVP voting: once first among pitchers, four more times in top 4.
Lyons played 10 years later (and AL vice NL), so he deserves some league quality bonus.
Rixey pitched in front of better defenses according to WARP. BP's Translated stats show Lyons' ERA to be 0.43 lower!
By Win Shares, Lyons was one-half a win better per full year, without league qual adjustments
In summary: many small plusses for Ted. Whether you are peak, prime, or career, this choice looks easy.
I also give Lyons a little credit for WWII.
pitcher WARP3 yrs
Ferrell 78 ....9
Lyons. 103 ...18
Dean.. 61 ....8
Rixey 76 ...20
By Win Shares he doesn't look quite this good, but if you use multiple measures, he comes out pretty high.
A quicker way to say it would be a 117 ERA+ with a great bat is a fine combo.
My point is that while I don't see Ferrell as the best pitcher, I do think that for a peak/prime voter like myself he was the best PLAYER to have played the position of pitcher.
For those that like lots of IP in their HOM candidates, Ferrell isnt' your man. If you aren't giving much credit for his hitting, Ferrell isn't your man. Hence the break.
8. Averill--nobody in the top 7
9. Sisler--up from 12
14. Sewell
18. Roush
23. Leach
The top 3 all had fairly short careers with obvious question marks--Do you credit Averill's PCL years? What about Sisler's eye troubles and precipitous decline? Sewell's move to 3B after just 8 years?
And Klein, it seems to me, is very similar. A somewhat short career, a fairly precipitous decline (maybe just a change in park effects?), but a high impact player for awhile. He seems to belong among our top 20th century position players.
You meant to say 1-4, right?
sunnyday2, it's no one thing, it was an accumulation of little things. You had 5 of the top 10 on your ballot; many people had 7 or 8 of them. You're one of three best friends of Jennings (and putting an 11th place candidate in an elect-me slot matters); you're the best friend of Moore, Bond, and Williamson.
But you're still a long, long way from being yest; you're closer to average than you are to him.
Again, thanks to Tiboreau for reposting many of the earlier Ferrell posts on the "Wes Ferrell" thread.
Again, thanks to Tiboreau for reposting many of the earlier Ferrell posts on the "Wes Ferrell" thread.
Yes, you're right, 1-4. I was thinking I had Wilson #2 because he made PHoM last year.
Actually I don't mind a low consensus score though I was surprised. I was low when we were considering more of the 19th century players, when I had a lot more IF and lot less OF on my ballot. But I had moved toward the middle of the pack in recent years, again to my surprise. My drop to the low end last year was very sudden is all.
Like I say, I don't mind a low consensus score. Actually, it is my badge. The scores are fun, thanks, O.
Yes, you're right, 1-4. I was thinking I had Wilson #2 because he made PHoM last year.
Actually I don't mind a low consensus score though I was surprised. I was low when we were considering more of the 19th century players, when I had a lot more IF and lot less OF on my ballot. But I had moved toward the middle of the pack in recent years, again to my surprise. My drop to the low end last year was very sudden is all.
Like I say, I don't mind a low consensus score. Actually, it is my badge. The scores are fun, thanks, O.
Pike 13399
VAN HALTREN 13200.5
JENNINGS 13089
DUFFY 12943
BECKLEY 12457
Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
BROWNING 11294.5
GRIFITH 11100
Caruthers 10704
RYAN 10293
WADDELL 10168
H Stovey 9576
CHILDS 9049
WELCH 9046
Anyone with all-time votes for EVERYONE, feel free to post here or on a discussion thread. I am due for a 'reality check' on these; moving in a few weeks, and no idea where some of my stuff is. this is just adding from last year's list.
If these are right, we may get a new all-time leader after this next ballot!
I'm a bigger friend of Mendez and Lundy than most, and I'm absolutely sure that Averill and Roush are the best two MLB OFs available.
Van Haltren and Duffy are the only players to have reached 13,000 votes who have not been elected.
; )
Vote Jennings in '49!!!
There is some discrepancies with what Howie posted above. I've checked every election so far with the values input in my spreadsheet, so these should be the correct values. Sorry about the length of it.
(not counting HOF managers)
Bender, Haines, Hafey, Kelly, Bottomley, T. Jackson, any others?
Also, entering this list brings up the question -
Who is the best player who has never received a HOM vote? How do they compare to the bottom rung of HOFer's?
W. Johnson 1296
Interesting note. Grove and Johnson are frequently discussed as the two best pitchers all-time. They also have the highest vote total among first-time eligible pitchers. Seems even HOM voters couldn't decide between them. ;)
Just based on a cursory glance, I'd say Herb Pennock.
But that's just a guess.
(not counting HOF managers)
Bender, Haines, Hafey, Kelly, Bottomley, T. Jackson, any others?
Also the aforementioned Herb Pennock, as well as Rube Marquard, Earle Combs, Freddie Lindstrom and Lloyd Waner. I think we're through the worst of the '30's, but Rick Ferrell is looming on the horizon as a potential shutout. With the love of catchers, though, he'll probably get a vote from someone.
Hall of Famer Happy Jack Chesbro wants to point out that so far he is beating Tommy McCarthy 14-6.
For best never to have received a vote, I'd actually take one of Frankie's boys, Jim Bottomley.
Earl Averill -- 25.9
Joe Sewell -- 20.5
Edd Roush -- 16.2
Rube Waddell -- 15.5
Dick Redding -- 11.8
Sam Rice -- 6.5
Pie Traynor -- 3.9
Harry Hooper -- 0.6
Jud Wilson was the only returnee to have his stock rise.
Ted Lyons' debut of 56.5% ranks 2nd among unelected players. 27 members of the HoM debuted with less support than Lyons.
He also now ranks 2nd in highest vote percentage received in any election by currently unelected players:
1. Mule Suttles -- 59.6
2. Ted Lyons -- 56.5
3. John Beckwith -- 51.4
4. Hugh Duffy -- 51.1
5. George Van Haltren -- 48.3
I'll go with your numbers. I've been unable to crunch this stuff perfectly, was settling for 'close.'
Thanks for the post.
By next year I hope to post my stuff like how many HOMers at each position each year, and so on..
My consideration set of 65 players includes several who apparently haven't yet received an HoM vote:
George Uhle (# 28) - a poor man's Ferrell.
Johnny Kling (# 32) - short career, but an impressive peak for his era.
Andy Cooper (# 52) and
Nip Winters (# 58) - neglected NeL pitchers.
Herb Pennock (# 64)
There are almost certainly other "excluded" players that we haven't fully evaluated who could be candidates:
NeL - Heavy Johnson, Dave Malarcher, Alejandro Oms, others?
MinorL - Frank Shellenback (picked by Bill James as best career minor league pitcher), Johnny Bassler (800 games as respected catcher in AL, more than 1500 in PCL), others?
Pike 13399
VAN HALTREN 13201.5
JENNINGS 13097
Duffy 12942.5
BECKLEY 12475
Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
BROWNING 11294.5
GRIFFITH 11117
Caruthers 10704
RYAN 10293.5
WADDELL 10179
Stovey 9576
CHILDS 9087
WELCH 9053
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
Pearce 8073
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(next actives: Bresnahan 6481, Leach 5987, CJones 5135, Monroe 4591, Sisler 4461, Rixey 4397, Beckwith 4371, Sewell 3656)
C: Muddy Ruel, Wilbur Robinson, Kling
1B: Bottomley, Fred Tenney, Lu Blue, Joe Judge, Kelly
2B: Max Bishop, Claude Ritchey
3B: Harry Steinfeldt, Jerry Denny, Billy Shindle, Larry Gardner, Ossie Bluege
SS: Roger Peckinpaugh, Jackson
CF: Waner, Clyde Milan, Cy Williams, Sy Seymour
RF/LF : Babe Herman, Wildfire Schulte, Hv Johnson
SP: Bill Dineen, Geo Mullin, Bob Shawkey, Cooper, Ted Trent, Guy Hecker, Uhle, Winters
SP? RP?: Firpo Marberry
GRANT 7969.5
Monroe 4591
Beckwith 4371
TORRIENTE 3544
HR JOHNSON 3118
SJ WILLIAMS 3066
R FOSTER 3062
MENDEZ 2953
Redding 2609
LLOYD 2179
Suttles 2160
B FOSTER 2125
J WILSON 1707
Poles 1698
CHARLESTON 1238
STEARNES 1232
Moore 1212
SANTOP 1126
ROGAN 978
Taylor 960
Lundy 844
HILL 706
S White 297
CP Bell 209
Fowler 157
Petway 149
Donaldson 57
G Stovey 43
J Johnson 25
DeMoss 19
Marcelle 17
Allen 14
(FYI, who is 'J Thomas' with 9 voting pts?)
I have us electing 14 of 32 to get a vote, not couinting 'Thomas'.
C - Bresnahan 6481, Schang 1669, Clements 265, Schalk 198, Farrell 156
1B - Beckley 12475, Sisler 4461, Chance 2095, Taylor 960, Konetchy 668
2B - Childs 9087, Monroe 4591, Doyle 3598, Dunlap 1106, S White 297
3B - (Leach) (Beckwith) Williamson 4172, McGraw 2629, Cross 1249, Traynor 653, Meyerle 287
SS - Jennings 13097, Beckwith 4371, Sewell 3656, Moore 1212, Lundy 844
OF - Van Haltren 13201.5, Duffy 12942.5, Browning 11294.5, Ryan 10293.5, Leach 5987, C Jones 5135, Roush 3060, Tiernan 2686, Suttles 2160, Cravath 1784, Hooper 1780, Griffin 1726.5, Poles 1698, F Jones 1563, Veach 1460, Burns 1317, Averill 1030, Rice 1019
SP - Griffith 11117, Waddell 10179, Welch 9053, Rixey 4397, McCormick 3148, Mendez 2953, Redding 2609, Joss 2264, Willis 1942, Ferrell 1794, Cicotte 1632, Grimes 1545, Mullane 1270, Lyons 692
Jules Thomas
There are also position players who certainly rank with (or above) the likes of Judy Johnson and Bruce Petway. Frank Duncan, for example, is probably very comparable to Petway in career value. Hurley McNair, George Carr, and Candy Jim Taylor are some examples of players who may not be HOMers, but deserve a little scrutiny.
I'd love for your meticulous bookkeeping and my modest extrication to hone our voting skills even more.
Bingo. Petway had much less competition to deal with.
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