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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, November 28, 20051965 Results: Doby is Hall of Merit Bound; Slaughter Makes a “Mad Dash” Into It, Too!In his first year of eligibility, Negro League and major league standout Larry Doby took the top spot for induction by obtaining 62% of all possible points. He entered the HoM 33 years earlier than his election to the Hall of Fame. Another newbie, Cardinal and Yankee star Enos Slaughter won the second induction spot with 60% of all possible points (twenty years earlier than he did with the HOF). Rounding out the top-ten were: Joe Medwick, Red Ruffing, Bob Lemon, Biz Mackey, Eppa Rixey, Clark Griffith, George Van Haltren, and Cool Papa Bell. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Larry Doby 686 41 11 3 5 3 4 1 2 1 2 1 4 1 3 2 n/e Enos Slaughter 670 38 7 7 7 3 2 3 2 1 1 3 1 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 4 Joe Medwick 405 30 1 4 2 5 1 2 2 1 3 1 3 5 4 3 Red Ruffing 405 26 2 2 2 4 4 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 5 5 Bob Lemon 389 27 2 4 1 2 2 1 2 1 1 2 3 2 1 1 2 6 6 Biz Mackey 322 26 1 1 2 1 2 3 3 1 4 1 2 2 1 2 7 7 Eppa Rixey 303 21 2 1 4 2 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 8 8 Clark Griffith 288 19 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 1 2 9 9 George Van Haltren 271 19 1 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 10 11 Cool Papa Bell 254 21 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 10 George Sisler 253 20 1 1 2 1 2 1 3 2 1 2 2 2 12 17 Dobie Moore 248 15 4 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 13 12 Jake Beckley 247 17 3 2 3 1 2 1 1 3 1 14 18 Willard Brown 220 19 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 2 3 2 1 1 15 14 Cupid Childs 220 17 1 1 2 1 1 1 4 3 1 1 1 16 13 Hugh Duffy 214 17 2 1 1 4 1 1 1 2 1 3 17 15 Cannonball Dick Redding 209 16 1 1 1 1 2 3 2 1 1 2 1 18 16 Pete Browning 198 14 2 3 2 1 1 2 3 19 20 José Méndez 188 14 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 3 1 20 22 Mickey Welch 188 10 3 2 2 2 1 21 21 Joe Sewell 184 14 2 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 2 22 19 Bobby Doerr 176 14 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 23 26 Ralph Kiner 170 15 1 2 4 1 2 1 2 1 1 24 25 Bucky Walters 169 13 1 1 2 1 4 1 1 1 1 25 24 Joe Gordon 161 14 1 1 1 1 2 4 1 2 1 26 27 Alejandro Oms 160 11 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 27 28 Rube Waddell 147 13 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 28 23 Charley Jones 145 10 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 29 29 Quincy Trouppe 130 11 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 30 30 Tommy Leach 112 9 1 1 2 2 2 1 31 32 Burleigh Grimes 107 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 32 34 Larry Doyle 92 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 33 33 Wally Schang 90 7 1 1 1 1 1 2 34 35 Roger Bresnahan 87 7 1 1 1 1 1 2 35 31 Edd Roush 86 8 1 1 1 2 2 1 36 37 Bob Elliott 72 7 1 1 1 2 2 37 39 Bob Johnson 69 8 1 1 1 1 4 38 36 Gavy Cravath 68 5 1 1 1 1 1 39 40 John McGraw 57 4 1 1 2 40 43 Charlie Keller 52 4 1 1 1 1 41 38 Tommy Bridges 49 5 1 1 1 1 1 42 48 Vern Stephens 40 3 1 1 1 43 46 Ed Williamson 39 4 1 1 1 1 44 47 Dizzy Trout 39 3 1 1 1 45 45 Luke Easter 38 3 1 1 1 46 49 Vic Willis 36 3 1 1 1 47T 52T Dizzy Dean 33 3 1 1 1 47T 52T Sam Rice 33 3 1 1 1 47T 42 Jimmy Ryan 33 3 1 1 1 50 54 Dutch Leonard 32 3 1 1 1 51 55 Ernie Lombardi 32 2 1 1 52 41 Phil Rizzuto 31 4 2 1 1 53 44 Bill Monroe 31 3 1 1 1 54 50 Frank Chance 29 3 1 2 55 56 Carl Mays 27 3 1 1 1 56 51 Ben Taylor 26 2 1 1 57T 57 Addie Joss 25 2 1 1 57T 58 Chuck Klein 25 2 1 1 59 60 Leroy Matlock 23 1 1 60T 66 Fielder Jones 18 1 1 60T 62 Pie Traynor 18 1 1 62T 63T Ed Cicotte 17 1 1 62T 59 Bobby Veach 17 1 1 64 61 Bobo Newsom 16 2 1 1 65 68 Johnny Pesky 14 1 1 66T 63T Tommy Bond 12 1 1 66T 70 Fred Dunlap 12 1 1 68T 69 Sam Leever 11 1 1 68T 71T Joe Tinker 11 1 1 70 71T Artie Wilson 9 1 1 71T 73T Bus Clarkson 8 1 1 71T 73T Hack Wilson 8 1 1 71T n/e Mickey Vernon 8 1 1 74T n/e Murray Dickson 7 1 1 74T 76 Al Rosen 7 1 1 76T 65 George J. Burns 6 1 1 76T 77T Dick Lundy 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Dom DiMaggio(77T), Lefty Gomez(73T), Virgil Trucks(67). Ballots Cast: 46
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: November 28, 2005 at 02:31 AM | 55 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:36 AM (#1750546)Hopefully, the results are correct, but I wouldn't bet any money on it. I never receieved any other tallies to compare with mine.
I decided not to present the unofficial results until sometime later this week.
I imagine a few late voters weren't persistent enough to get through the site problems.
BTW, as I thought, the ballot page formatting issue is dealt with automatically.
Also, pay no attention to some of the ballot movement--e.g. Joe Medwick, Dobie Moore, Ralph Kiner and others up; Duffy, Redding, Browning, Mendez and others down. All will be back to their more or less normal slot next year.
unofficial (good time for whomever has the Official tallies to check this handcrafted update for accuracy; it's been a few years)
Congrats to George Van Haltren on grabbing the top slot - will this lead to a belated induction, a la Jennings? Beckley must hope so.....
VAN HALTREN 17232.5
Jennings 16976
BECKLEY 16504
DUFFY 16287.5
GRIFFITH 15808
BROWNING 14223.5
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
WADDELL 12272
CHILDS 12168
WELCH 11962
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10871.5
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9920
RIXEY 9602
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 8780
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
BRESNAHAN 8078
Pearce 8073
TLEACH 8021
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(C Jones 7271, Sewell 6856, Redding 5548, Monroe 5543, Mendez 5333, Roush 5034, Mackey 4974, Doyle 4950, Ruffing 4938, Medwick 4746, Williamson 4548, CP Bell 4302)
GVH, Duffy, and Ryan are all better selections than Slaughter.
8 of GVH's 10 most similar are HoFers; 9 of 10 for Ryan; 7 of 10 for Duffy.
Duffy's HoF monitor is a 151; sure beats Slaughter 91
The electorate has discussed an obvious lack of 1890's players in the HoM yet these 3 languish while others from the mid and late 20th century go in on the first or second ballot.
Don't get me wrong; Slaughter deserves strong consideration but HoM voters owe it to themselves and even more importantly to messrs Duffy, Ryan and Van Haltren to scrutinize their records in comparison with their contemporaries and vote them a place in the pantheon of greats from the 19th century.
Those who were effected by this, please post your ballot on the thread and we can update the final tally . . .
I'll post my ballot this afternoon before 4 eastern.
Since I allowed Thane's ballot after the deadline, I obviously agree with Joe.
+7 spots: Frank Chance
+6: Dizzy Dean
+3: Bobby Doerr
Roger Bresnahan
Jimmy Ryan
Phil Rizzuto
+2: George Sisler
Edd Roush
+1: Jake Beckley
Cupid Childs
Hugh Duffy
Joe Sewell
Joe Gordon
Charley Jones
Gavvy Cravath
Ernie Lombardi
-1: George Van Haltren
Cool Papa Bell
Dobie Moore
Mickey Welch
Bucky Walters
Rube Waddell
Burleigh Grimes
Wally Schang
Bob Johnson
John McGraw
Tommy Bridges
Vern Stephens
Dizzy Trout
-2: Willard Brown
-3: Jose Mendez
Larry Doyle
Ed Williamson
Luke Easter
Dutch Leonard
-4: Vic Willis
-5: Sam Rice
OCF said that people were more likely to go consensus with their 16-20 -- though we did pick up 13 new candidates on the bottom end.
I knew you guys would come around.
1. Ted Williams
2. Mickey Welch
3. Cool Papa Bell
4. Eppa Rixey
5. Red Ruffing
6. Burleigh Grimes
7. Jake Beckley
8. Dick Redding
9. Biz Mackey
10. George Sisler
11. Ralph Kiner
12. Joe Medwick
13. Bob Lemon
14. Rube Waddell
15. George Van Haltren
16. Clark Griffith
17. Roger Bresnahan
18. Jimmy Ryan
19. Jose Mendez
20. Sam Rice
From #1 through #31 in the official results (players with >10 ballots OR 100 points) the following moved up or down more than 1 slot.
Sisler +2
W. Brown -2
Mendez -3
Doerr +3
Small sample, but among the upper echelon it appears that NeLers lose in the translation.
From #32 through #55 (players with >2 ballots OR 30 points) the following moved up or down more than 2 slots (too much movement to want to track smaller changes)
Doyle -3
Bresnahan +3
Williamson -3
Easter -3
Willis -5
Dean +6
S. Rice -5
Ryan +3
Lombardi -3
Rizzuto +3
Chance +7
Best I can do for trends: HoFers move up, not HoFers move down? NeLers still moving down. Otherwise everything cancels out: catchers, 19th century, pitchers....
#56 through end (<3 ballots AND <30 points) the following moved up or down 5 slots or more
A. Wilson -6
Vernon +7
Dickson -7
Lundy +7
Biggest overall trend (#1 through #76) is that NeLers don't get much in the #16-20 voting. Elect the best, forget the rest. The most recent white MLer in each category (Doerr, Rizzuto, Vernon) all move up, though Murry Dickson goes the other way. White ML 1B do very well.
I would be interested in seeing if there is any truth to the trend that OCF brought up. Were the 16-20 spots more consensus-biased? I can see a scenario where an opponent of a top-ten candidate held him back to 16 or 17 so as not to give him points. Are those voters more likely to hold them back further into the 21-22 range now? I admit that sounds a bit like strategic voting, though.
There is no evidence that it might help SNTs, but I wonder...
Consensus scores are based on 1-15 votes. Average conensus score -10.9; highest possible score +7. All individual scores are negative. (The highest is about -0.25.)
Indvidually - a new spot for me.
OCF: 0
Howie Menckel: -2
SWW: -4
Andrew Siegel: -4
dan b: -4
Rusty Priske: -4
Tiboreau: -4
...
Al Peterson: -10
Adam Schafer: -10 (medians)
...
karlmagnus: -20
David Foss: -20
Gadfly: -20
Dolf Lucky: -20
Kelly in SD: -22
KJOK: -23
yest: -24
I have Rixie with 3 16th place votes and no 17th - check Adam Schafer, Jim Sp, and Thane of Bagarth.
I have Willard Brown with one 16th place votes. Check Sean Gilman
It looks like an Browning got an extra 16th place vote - maybe that's Brown's vote.
I think that's all I have.
I'm set up to try out other point schemes if anyone has a pet idea.
David Foss: -20
Gadfly: -20
Wow... I finally made one of the lists. Slaughter's induction and Medwick's climb to 15th should bounce me back towards the median. I am indeed collecting teddy bears, though. :-)
4 of 19 (21 percent) of white MLers drop.
All-time 'vote points totals' leaders, through 1965. Active for 1966 vote in CAPS
Congrats to George Van Haltren on grabbing the top slot - will this lead to a belated induction, a la Jennings? Beckley and Duffy must hope so, too.....
VAN HALTREN 17232.5
Jennings 16976
BECKLEY 16504
DUFFY 16287.5
GRIFFITH 15818
BROWNING 14223.5
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
WADDELL 12272
CHILDS 12168
WELCH 11962
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10871.5
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9920
RIXEY 9602
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 8780
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
BRESNAHAN 8078
Pearce 8073
TLEACH 8021
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(C Jones 7271, Sewell 6867, Redding 5548, Monroe 5543, Mendez 5351, Roush 5034, Mackey 4974, Ruffing 4952, Doyle 4950, Medwick 4746, Williamson 4548, CP Bell 4302)
(Moore 3540, Grimes 3469, McGraw 3387, Schang 3384)
You have to be on the ballot a long time to make the Top 25 - unless you rack up a ton of points, in which case you "ruin it" by getting elected. Ferrell got elected at the cusp of top 25, and Ruffing and Medwick also are liable to do the same before hitting that milestone.
Also, let's make sure we get a couple more years of testing in before we draw any conclusions. It will be interesting to compare results of an election with a clear and obvious candidate like Williams to this last one.
Draw your own conclusions on this.
Player 16-20 Points % of Total Points
If the backlog generally moves on-ballot because the number of strong new candidates is low during the next decade, a 17th place vote will not continue to be worth two 19s. Regarding what the 16th to 20th test bodes for particular candidates (which is beside the point of test), the number of votes is more important than the share of points. Bresnahan stands out as the "big winner" among present also-rans. The "losers" with dimmer prospects than the official tally suggests are Redding, Welch, Mendez, Oms, Grimes, Schang, Doyle (among those officially ahead of Bresnahan).
While the number of test votes is more important to prospects, this may be interesting in itself.
Share of his naysayers who rank him 16th to 20th
1/05 Doby
3/08 Slaughter
6/16 Medwick
4/20! Ruffing
9/19 Lemon
5/20 Mackey
8/25 Rixey
7/27 Griffith
9/26 Sisler
5/27 GVH
4/25 Bell
3/29 Beckley
5/31 Moore
...
Slaughter deserves strong consideration but HoM voters owe it to themselves and even more importantly to messrs Duffy, Ryan and Van Haltren to scrutinize their records in comparison with their contemporaries and vote them a place in the pantheon of greats from the 19th century.
I think we have scrutinized their records. Sim Scores and HOF Monitor aren't going to tell the whole story unless you make some adjustments. The numbers you cited (1) don't take into account run environments, ballpark factors, etc. and (2) Slaughter missed three years b/c of WWII...and given his 1942 and 1946 seasons, I think we can determine he would have been pretty productive in the missing years.
Believe me, there has been no shortage of discussion about Duffy, Ryan and GVH over the life of the project. As you can see, none of them appear on more than 20 ballots (Duffy (#6) and Ryan (#17) appear on mine -- GVH is #31) and only 11 or 12 voters have Duffy and GVH in their top 10. Slaughter was on 38 ballots with 33 top 10 votes.
I do agree that Ryan has seemed to suffer as time wears on, although Duffy and GVH have pretty much been holding steady for 60+ "years".
IOW which HoFers are they? (Rhetorical question: I can look it up myself, but still...)
I do have some theories on this...
1. WS loves CFers and is probably overrating the three of them. In my system, Ryan comes off the worst in WARP and in other measures as well.
2. We have peak voters and career voters, but sometimes the guys with a littel of both get left behind. I must admit players like this (Sewell, Ruffing maybe) aren't high on my ballot either. I see the three of them like this; Duffy=peak, GVH= career, Ryan=middle ground?. GVH's peak is as imrpessive as Ryan's is to me, however.
Also, Enos Slaughter may be the player most helped by war credit. Without it he isn't in my top 30, but he missed three prime (if not peak) years to the war. I think a lot of outsiders see him numbers and would think we made a mistake, but you have to add those missed years to his record. Of course, this from a guy who ranked him #19 last year because he doesn't like to extrapolate a peak.
I have Duffy's peak as enormous by WS when you schedule adjust so he was decidedly above Slaughter for me.
Pinson 1958-65
Then he just kind of got old quick and wasn't ever really more than just a good player. Reminds me of Andruw Jones, before his 2005 renaissance.
What renaissance?
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