BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1965 Results: Doby is Hall of Merit Bound; Slaughter Makes a “Mad Dash” Into It, Too!

Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, November 28, 2005

1965 Results: Doby is Hall of Merit Bound; Slaughter Makes a “Mad Dash” Into It, Too!

In his first year of eligibility, Negro League and major league standout Larry Doby took the top spot for induction by obtaining 62% of all possible points. He entered the HoM 33 years earlier than his election to the Hall of Fame.

Another newbie, Cardinal and Yankee star Enos Slaughter won the second induction spot with 60% of all possible points (twenty years earlier than he did with the HOF).

Rounding out the top-ten were: Joe Medwick, Red Ruffing, Bob Lemon, Biz Mackey, Eppa Rixey, Clark Griffith, George Van Haltren, and Cool Papa Bell.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Larry Doby               686   41  11  3  5  3  4  1  2  1  2  1        4  1  3               
 2  n/e  Enos Slaughter           670   38   7  7  7  3  2     3  2  1  1     3  1     1               
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    4  Joe Medwick              405   30   1  4  2     5     1  2  2  1  3  1  3  5                  
 4    3  Red Ruffing              405   26   2  2  2  4  4  2  3  1  2  1        2  1                  
 5    5  Bob Lemon                389   27   2  4  1  2  2  1  2  1  1  2  3  2  1  1  2               
 6    6  Biz Mackey               322   26   1     1  2  1  2  3  3  1  4  1  2  2  1  2               
 7    7  Eppa Rixey               303   21   2  1  4  2     1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  1               
 8    8  Clark Griffith           288   19   2  2  2     2  2  1  1  2     2  1  2                     
 9    9  George Van Haltren       271   19   1  3  1  2  1  2     1  1     1  2  1  1  2               
10   11  Cool Papa Bell           254   21      2     1  2  1  1  1  2  2  2  1  2  2  2               
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   10  George Sisler            253   20   1     1  2  1  2  1  3  2     1  2     2  2               
12   17  Dobie Moore              248   15   4  1  1  1     2  1  1     1  1  1     1                  
13   12  Jake Beckley             247   17   3  2     3              1  2     1  1  3  1               
14   18  Willard Brown            220   19      1     1  1     2  1  3  1  2  3  2  1  1               
15   14  Cupid Childs             220   17   1     1     2  1  1  1  4  3  1        1  1               
16   13  Hugh Duffy               214   17         2  1  1  4  1  1     1  2  1        3               
17   15  Cannonball Dick Redding  209   16      1  1  1  1  2  3  2           1  1  2  1               
18   16  Pete Browning            198   14   2     3     2           1  1  2        3                  
19   20  José Méndez              188   14   1  1  1  1     1  2  1     1     1  3     1               
20   22  Mickey Welch             188   10   3  2     2        2                 1                     
21   21  Joe Sewell               184   14      2  1  1  1           3  2  1        1  2               
22   19  Bobby Doerr              176   14         1  1  3  1     2  1     1  1  1  1  1               
23   26  Ralph Kiner              170   15                  1  2  4  1  2  1  2     1  1               
24   25  Bucky Walters            169   13         1  1  2  1     4     1  1     1     1               
25   24  Joe Gordon               161   14      1        1  1  1        2  4  1  2     1               
26   27  Alejandro Oms            160   11      1     2  1  2  2     1     1        1                  
27   28  Rube Waddell             147   13            1  1  1  1  1     2  1  2  1  2                  
28   23  Charley Jones            145   10      2     1     1     2  2     1        1                  
29   29  Quincy Trouppe           130   11            1     2  2     1  1     2     2                  
30   30  Tommy Leach              112    9         1     1  2           2     2  1                     
31   32  Burleigh Grimes          107    9         1     1  1     1     2     1  1     1               
32   34  Larry Doyle               92    6      1     1  1  1     1              1                     
33   33  Wally Schang              90    7      1        1        1  1     1     2                     
34   35  Roger Bresnahan           87    7      1  1           1           1     1  2                  
35   31  Edd Roush                 86    8         1                 1  1  2  2     1                  
36   37  Bob Elliott               72    7                  1  1        1  2           2               
37   39  Bob Johnson               69    8                  1     1           1  1     4               
38   36  Gavy Cravath              68    5   1              1        1        1  1                     
39   40  John McGraw               57    4         1        1        2                                 
40   43  Charlie Keller            52    4            1     1  1                       1               
41   38  Tommy Bridges             49    5                           1  1  1  1     1                  
42   48  Vern Stephens             40    3               1  1                 1                        
43   46  Ed Williamson             39    4                        1        1  1     1                  
44   47  Dizzy Trout               39    3                  1     1     1                              
45   45  Luke Easter               38    3         1           1                       1               
46   49  Vic Willis                36    3                     1  1           1                        
47T  52T Dizzy Dean                33    3                           1  1  1                           
47T  52T Sam Rice                  33    3                        1  1           1                     
47T  42  Jimmy Ryan                33    3            1                    1           1               
50   54  Dutch Leonard             32    3                        1  1              1                  
51   55  Ernie Lombardi            32    2   1                                   1                     
52   41  Phil Rizzuto              31    4                                    2     1  1               
53   44  Bill Monroe               31    3            1                          1     1               
54   50  Frank Chance              29    3            1                                2               
55   56  Carl Mays                 27    3                              1     1     1                  
56   51  Ben Taylor                26    2               1                 1                           
57T  57  Addie Joss                25    2                  1              1                           
57T  58  Chuck Klein               25    2                     1        1                              
59   60  Leroy Matlock             23    1      1                                                      
60T  66  Fielder Jones             18    1         1                                                   
60T  62  Pie Traynor               18    1         1                                                   
62T  63T Ed Cicotte                17    1            1                                                
62T  59  Bobby Veach               17    1            1                                                
64   61  Bobo Newsom               16    2                                 1           1               
65   68  Johnny Pesky              14    1                     1                                       
66T  63T Tommy Bond                12    1                           1                                 
66T  70  Fred Dunlap               12    1                           1                                 
68T  69  Sam Leever                11    1                              1                              
68T  71T Joe Tinker                11    1                              1                              
70   71T Artie Wilson               9    1                                    1                        
71T  73T Bus Clarkson               8    1                                       1                     
71T  73T Hack Wilson                8    1                                       1                     
71T n/e  Mickey Vernon              8    1                                       1                     
74T n/e  Murray Dickson             7    1                                          1                  
74T  76  Al Rosen                   7    1                                          1                  
76T  65  George J. Burns            6    1                                             1               
76T  77T Dick Lundy                 6    1                                             1               
Dropped Out: Dom DiMaggio(77T), Lefty Gomez(73T), Virgil Trucks(67).
Ballots Cast: 46

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 28, 2005 at 02:31 AM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:36 AM (#1750546)

Congrats to my top two picks!

Hopefully, the results are correct, but I wouldn't bet any money on it. I never receieved any other tallies to compare with mine.

I decided not to present the unofficial results until sometime later this week.

2. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:40 AM (#1750551)

BTW, when was the last time that we had a high only 44 ballots?

3. Trevor P. Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:44 AM (#1750561)

I don't know, but I couldn't get into the site earlier this evening. I wonder if that may have had something to do with the low turnout.

4. jimd Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:47 AM (#1750565)

BTW, when was the last time that we had a high only 44 ballots?

I imagine a few late voters weren't persistent enough to get through the site problems.

BTW, as I thought, the ballot page formatting issue is dealt with automatically.

5. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:51 AM (#1750571)

That's possible, Trevor, though a few voters either e-mailed me or Joe so their ballots would be on time. For the future, if this problem pops up again, e-mail is the way (or don't procrastinate! :-D)

6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 03:10 AM (#1750602)

I added Thane of Bagarath's ballot, so the results have slightly changed.

7. sunnyday2 Posted: November 29, 2005 at 03:19 AM (#1750612)

I had trouble most of the day, on and off, so hopefully our other voters will be back.

Also, pay no attention to some of the ballot movement--e.g. Joe Medwick, Dobie Moore, Ralph Kiner and others up; Duffy, Redding, Browning, Mendez and others down. All will be back to their more or less normal slot next year.

8. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: November 29, 2005 at 03:36 AM (#1750634)

Wow, this is surprising actually. I thought that Doby might go in but not Slaughter, he seemed too much like GVH. However, they were on a lot of ballots this past year so I guess this is another datapoint for the broad consensus.

9. Chris Cobb Posted: November 29, 2005 at 03:46 AM (#1750646)

Well, Slaughter also did well up-ballot. He tied Doby for tops in "elect-me" votes with 14, far outdistancing Medwick, Lemon, Beckley, and Welch who had 5 each.

10. Howie Menckel Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:26 AM (#1750703)

All-time 'vote points totals' leaders, through 1965. Active for 1966 vote in CAPS
unofficial (good time for whomever has the Official tallies to check this handcrafted update for accuracy; it's been a few years)

Congrats to George Van Haltren on grabbing the top slot - will this lead to a belated induction, a la Jennings? Beckley must hope so.....

VAN HALTREN 17232.5
Jennings 16976
BECKLEY 16504
DUFFY 16287.5
GRIFFITH 15808
BROWNING 14223.5
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
WADDELL 12272
CHILDS 12168

WELCH 11962
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10871.5
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9920
RIXEY 9602
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 8780
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232

BRESNAHAN 8078
Pearce 8073
TLEACH 8021
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(C Jones 7271, Sewell 6856, Redding 5548, Monroe 5543, Mendez 5333, Roush 5034, Mackey 4974, Doyle 4950, Ruffing 4938, Medwick 4746, Williamson 4548, CP Bell 4302)

11. jingoist Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:33 AM (#1750713)

I just don't get it....
GVH, Duffy, and Ryan are all better selections than Slaughter.
8 of GVH's 10 most similar are HoFers; 9 of 10 for Ryan; 7 of 10 for Duffy.
Duffy's HoF monitor is a 151; sure beats Slaughter 91

The electorate has discussed an obvious lack of 1890's players in the HoM yet these 3 languish while others from the mid and late 20th century go in on the first or second ballot.

Don't get me wrong; Slaughter deserves strong consideration but HoM voters owe it to themselves and even more importantly to messrs Duffy, Ryan and Van Haltren to scrutinize their records in comparison with their contemporaries and vote them a place in the pantheon of greats from the 19th century.

12. Michael Bass Posted: November 29, 2005 at 05:26 AM (#1750775)

For the record, I had to give up about 6 PM or so after being unable to get in all day. I'll definately be back.

13. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: November 29, 2005 at 07:12 AM (#1750856)

Since it isn't going to effect the inductees, I think we should add the ballots of those that missed out due to the site issues. Much better for the sake of 'historical continuity' as this is an extenuating circumstance.

Those who were effected by this, please post your ballot on the thread and we can update the final tally . . .

14. OCF Posted: November 29, 2005 at 07:49 AM (#1750877)

I wholeheartedly agree on the "historical continuity". I don't yet have a complete tally myself (and hence no consensus scores) and will not be able to return to complete this until late Tuesday afternoon or maybe even Wednesday morning. I promise I will do it when I can.

15. Howie Menckel Posted: November 29, 2005 at 01:19 PM (#1751015)

ok, just let me know if it changed so I also can adjust the career tallies..

16. Michael Bass Posted: November 29, 2005 at 01:28 PM (#1751022)

Cool, thanks for the extension, Joe.

I'll post my ballot this afternoon before 4 eastern.

17. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:35 PM (#1751110)

Since it isn't going to effect the inductees, I think we should add the ballots of those that missed out due to the site issues. Much better for the sake of 'historical continuity' as this is an extenuating circumstance.

Since I allowed Thane's ballot after the deadline, I obviously agree with Joe.

18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 02:45 PM (#1751130)

Michael's ballot is now included.

19. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: November 29, 2005 at 03:31 PM (#1751217)

So do we have any word yet on how 'counting' #'s 16-20 effected the tallies, if at all?

20. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 03:43 PM (#1751256)

Here you go, Mark. As OCF pointed out in another thread, Jim SP only gave us his #16.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Larry Doby               687   42  11  3  5  3  4  1  2  1  2  1        4  1  3              1
 2  n/e  Enos Slaughter           679   41   7  7  7  3  2     3  2  1  1     3  1     1     1  1  1   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    4  Joe Medwick              424   36   1  4  2     5     1  2  2  1  3  1  3  5     2  1     2  1
 4    3  Red Ruffing              420   30   2  2  2  4  4  2  3  1  2  1        2  1     1  2     1   
 5    5  Bob Lemon                410   36   2  4  1  2  2  1  2  1  1  2  3  2  1  1  2     2  3     4
 6    6  Biz Mackey               340   31   1     1  2  1  2  3  3  1  4  1  2  2  1  2  1  2  1  1   
 7    7  Eppa Rixey               328   29   2  1  4  2     1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  3     2  1  2
 8    8  Clark Griffith           311   26   2  2  2     2  2  1  1  2     2  1  2        1  3  1  1  1
 9   10  George Sisler            287   29   1     1  2  1  2  1  3  2     1  2     2  2  3  3  1  2   
10    9  George Van Haltren       280   24   1  3  1  2  1  2     1  1     1  2  1  1  2        2     3
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   11  Cool Papa Bell           260   25      2     1  2  1  1  1  2  2  2  1  2  2  2           2  2
12   12  Jake Beckley             260   20   3  2     3              1  2     1  1  3  1  1  2         
13   17  Dobie Moore              258   20   4  1  1  1     2  1  1     1  1  1     1           2  1  2
14   18  Willard Brown            232   23      1     1  1     2  1  3  1  2  3  2  1  1  1     2     1
15   14  Cupid Childs             231   21   1     1     2  1  1  1  4  3  1        1  1  1     1  1  1
16   13  Hugh Duffy               228   21         2  1  1  4  1  1     1  2  1        3  1  1  1  1   
17   15  Cannonball Dick Redding  227   20      1  1  1  1  2  3  2           1  1  2  1  3     1      
18   19  Bobby Doerr              207   23         1  1  3  1     2  1     1  1  1  1  1  4     2  2  1
19   16  Pete Browning            203   17   2     3     2           1  1  2        3           1     2
20   21  Joe Sewell               200   18      2  1  1  1           3  2  1        1  2  2  1     1   
21   22  Mickey Welch             193   12   3  2     2        2                 1           1        1
22   20  José Méndez              191   16   1  1  1  1     1  2  1     1     1  3     1           1  1
23   26  Ralph Kiner              187   21                  1  2  4  1  2  1  2     1  1  1  1  1  2  1
24   24  Joe Gordon               186   22      1        1  1  1        2  4  1  2     1  2  1  2  2  1
25   25  Bucky Walters            177   16         1  1  2  1     4     1  1     1     1  1        1  1
26   27  Alejandro Oms            167   13      1     2  1  2  2     1     1        1     1        1   
27   23  Charley Jones            160   14      2     1     1     2  2     1        1     2  1        1
28   28  Rube Waddell             155   16            1  1  1  1  1     2  1  2  1  2        1     2   
29   29  Quincy Trouppe           135   14            1     2  2     1  1     2     2           1     2
30   30  Tommy Leach              123   12         1     1  2           2     2  1           2  1      
31   35  Roger Bresnahan          115   15      1  1           1           1     1  2     2  2  2  2   
32   32  Burleigh Grimes          112   10         1     1  1     1     2     1  1     1  1            
33   31  Edd Roush                103   13         1                 1  1  2  2     1     1  2  1     1
34   33  Wally Schang              97    9      1        1        1  1     1     2           1  1      
35   34  Larry Doyle               97    8      1     1  1  1     1              1              1  1   
36   37  Bob Elliott               80   10                  1  1        1  2           2     1     2   
37   36  Gavy Cravath              77    7   1              1        1        1  1        1  1         
38   39  Bob Johnson               72    9                  1     1           1  1     4        1      
39   43  Charlie Keller            64    8            1     1  1                       1  1     2     1
40   40  John McGraw               57    4         1        1        2                                 
41   52T Dizzy Dean                50   10                           1  1  1              1     2  2  2
42   38  Tommy Bridges             49    5                           1  1  1  1     1                  
43   48  Vern Stephens             48    6               1  1                 1              1  1     1
44   42  Jimmy Ryan                41    7            1                    1           1     1     1  2
45   47  Dizzy Trout               40    4                  1     1     1                             1
46   46  Ed Williamson             39    4                        1        1  1     1                  
47   50  Frank Chance              38    6            1                                2  1     1     1
48   45  Luke Easter               38    3         1           1                       1               
49   41  Phil Rizzuto              37    7                                    2     1  1        1  1  1
50T  55  Ernie Lombardi            36    3   1                                   1           1         
50T  49  Vic Willis                36    3                     1  1           1                        
52   52T Sam Rice                  35    4                        1  1           1                 1   
53T  54  Dutch Leonard             34    4                        1  1              1              1   
53T  44  Bill Monroe               34    4            1                          1     1        1      
55   51  Ben Taylor                31    3               1                 1              1            
56   56  Carl Mays                 29    4                              1     1     1              1   
57   57  Addie Joss                29    3                  1              1                 1         
58   62  Pie Traynor               28    5         1                                            2  2   
59   58  Chuck Klein               25    2                     1        1                              
60   60  Leroy Matlock             23    1      1                                                      
61   66  Fielder Jones             21    2         1                                            1      
62   61  Bobo Newsom               20    3                                 1           1     1         
63   63T Ed Cicotte                18    2            1                                               1
64  n/e  Mickey Vernon             17    3                                       1        1  1         
65   59  Bobby Veach               17    1            1                                                
66   68  Johnny Pesky              14    1                     1                                       
67T  63T Tommy Bond                12    1                           1                                 
67T  70  Fred Dunlap               12    1                           1                                 
69T  77T Dick Lundy                11    2                                             1  1            
69T  76  Al Rosen                  11    2                                          1        1         
71T  69  Sam Leever                11    1                              1                              
71T  71T Joe Tinker                11    1                              1                              
73   65  George J. Burns           10    2                                             1     1         
74T  73T Bus Clarkson               9    2                                       1                    1
74T  77T Dom DiMaggio               9    2                                                1  1         
76   71T Artie Wilson               9    1                                    1                        
77  n/e  Buzz Arlett                8    4                                                   1     1  2
78   73T Lefty Gomez                8    2                                                   2         
79   73T Hack Wilson                8    1                                       1                     
80  n/e  Wilbur Cooper              7    2                                                1        1   
81  n/e  Murray Dickson             7    1                                          1                  
82T n/e  Rabbit Maranville          5    1                                                1            
82T  67  Virgil Trucks              5    1                                                1            
84  n/e  Johnny Sain                4    1                                                   1         
85  n/e  Tony Mullane               3    2                                                         1  1
86T n/e  Dave Bancroft              3    1                                                      1      
86T n/e  George Kell                3    1                                                      1      
88T n/e  Harry Hooper               2    1                                                         1   
88T n/e  Urban Shocker              2    1                                                         1   
90  n/e  Heinie Manush              1    1                                                            1
Ballots Cast: 46

21. sunnyday2 Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:02 PM (#1751286)

I assume this is based on 5-4-3-2-1?

22. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:07 PM (#1751299)

Correct, Marc.

23. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:20 PM (#1751332)

Just to summarize, here's the changes in rank for everyone ranked in the top 50 on either list:

+7 spots: Frank Chance
+6: Dizzy Dean
+3: Bobby Doerr
Roger Bresnahan
Jimmy Ryan
Phil Rizzuto
+2: George Sisler
Edd Roush
+1: Jake Beckley
Cupid Childs
Hugh Duffy
Joe Sewell
Joe Gordon
Charley Jones
Gavvy Cravath
Ernie Lombardi
-1: George Van Haltren
Cool Papa Bell
Dobie Moore
Mickey Welch
Bucky Walters
Rube Waddell
Burleigh Grimes
Wally Schang
Bob Johnson
John McGraw
Tommy Bridges
Vern Stephens
Dizzy Trout
-2: Willard Brown
-3: Jose Mendez
Larry Doyle
Ed Williamson
Luke Easter
Dutch Leonard
-4: Vic Willis
-5: Sam Rice

24. DavidFoss Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:21 PM (#1751333)

Well, you now have to go down to #18 to get under 20 ballots (as opposed to #8). That worked pretty well in that regard.

OCF said that people were more likely to go consensus with their 16-20 -- though we did pick up 13 new candidates on the bottom end.

25. Daryn Posted: November 29, 2005 at 04:21 PM (#1751335)

I thought I'd juxtapose this prelim with post 20. I'm typically middle of the road on consensus, but I think only Welch (who has moved all the way up to 19 among returning candidates) might keep me out of the top 5 next week. The returning top 10 are all on my ballot, plus (by giving war credit) Williams has managed to eke past Welch :). Grimes, at 30 among returnees, is my most unpopoular top-15 candidate.

I knew you guys would come around.

1. Ted Williams
2. Mickey Welch
3. Cool Papa Bell
4. Eppa Rixey
5. Red Ruffing
6. Burleigh Grimes
7. Jake Beckley
8. Dick Redding
9. Biz Mackey
10. George Sisler
11. Ralph Kiner
12. Joe Medwick
13. Bob Lemon
14. Rube Waddell
15. George Van Haltren
16. Clark Griffith
17. Roger Bresnahan
18. Jimmy Ryan
19. Jose Mendez
20. Sam Rice

26. sunnyday2 Posted: November 29, 2005 at 05:12 PM (#1751430)

Based on the tabs posted above, realizing they are not final final. Who moves up, who moves down?

From #1 through #31 in the official results (players with >10 ballots OR 100 points) the following moved up or down more than 1 slot.

Sisler +2
W. Brown -2
Mendez -3
Doerr +3

Small sample, but among the upper echelon it appears that NeLers lose in the translation.

From #32 through #55 (players with >2 ballots OR 30 points) the following moved up or down more than 2 slots (too much movement to want to track smaller changes)

Doyle -3
Bresnahan +3
Williamson -3
Easter -3
Willis -5
Dean +6
S. Rice -5
Ryan +3
Lombardi -3
Rizzuto +3
Chance +7

Best I can do for trends: HoFers move up, not HoFers move down? NeLers still moving down. Otherwise everything cancels out: catchers, 19th century, pitchers....

#56 through end (<3 ballots AND <30 points) the following moved up or down 5 slots or more

A. Wilson -6
Vernon +7
Dickson -7
Lundy +7

Biggest overall trend (#1 through #76) is that NeLers don't get much in the #16-20 voting. Elect the best, forget the rest. The most recent white MLer in each category (Doerr, Rizzuto, Vernon) all move up, though Murry Dickson goes the other way. White ML 1B do very well.

27. Evan Posted: November 29, 2005 at 06:51 PM (#1751672)

Draw your own conclusions on this.

Player 16-20 Points  % of Total Points
Sisler3411.8%
Doerr3115.0%
Bresnahan2824.3%
Rixey257.6%
Gordon2513.4%
Griffith237.4%
Lemon215.1%
Medwick194.5%
Mackey185.3%
Redding187.9%
Kiner179.1%
Roush1716.5%
Dean1734.0%
Sewell168.0%
Ruffing153.6%
C. Jones159.4%
Duffy146.1%
Beckley135.0%
Brown125.2%
Keller1218.8%
Childs114.8%
Leach118.9%
Moore103.9%
Traynor1035.7%
Slaughter91.3%
Van Haltren93.2%
Cravath911.7%
Chance923.7%
Vernon952.9%
Dimaggio9100.0%
Walters84.5%
Waddell85.2%
Elliott810.0%
Stephens816.7%
Ryan819.5%
Arlett8100.0%
Gomez8100.0%
Oms74.2%
Schang77.2%
Cooper7100.0%
Bell62.3%
Rizzuto616.2%
Browning52.5%
Welch52.6%
Trouppe53.7%
Grimes54.5%
Doyle55.2%
Taylor516.1%
Lundy545.5%
Maranville5100.0%
Trucks5100.0%
Lombardi411.1%
Joss413.8%
Newsom420.0%
Rosen436.4%
Burns440.0%
Sain4100.0%
Mendez31.6%
Johnson34.2%
Monroe38.8%
F. Jones314.3%
Mullane3100.0%
Bancroft3100.0%
Kell3100.0%
Rice25.7%
Leonard25.9%
Mays26.9%
Hooper2100.0%
Shocker2100.0%
Doby10.1%
Trout12.5%
Cicotte15.6%
Clarkson111.1%
Manush1100.0%

28. Evan Posted: November 29, 2005 at 06:52 PM (#1751676)

Interesting that the "live preview pane" lies.

29. Evan Posted: November 29, 2005 at 06:55 PM (#1751684)

Player 16-20 Points  % of Total Points
Sisler        34     11.8%
Doerr         31     15.0%
Bresnahan     28     24.3%
Rixey         25     7.6%
Gordon        25     13.4%
Griffith      23     7.4%
Lemon         21     5.1%
Medwick       19     4.5%
Mackey        18     5.3%
Redding       18     7.9%
Kiner         17     9.1%
Roush         17     16.5%
Dean          17     34.0%
Sewell        16     8.0%
Ruffing       15     3.6%
C. Jones      15     9.4%
Duffy         14     6.1%
Beckley       13     5.0%
Brown         12     5.2%
Keller        12     18.8%
Childs        11     4.8%
Leach         11     8.9%
Moore         10     3.9%
Traynor       10     35.7%
Slaughter      9     1.3%
Van Haltren    9     3.2%
Cravath        9     11.7%
Chance         9     23.7%
Vernon         9     52.9%
Dimaggio       9     100.0%
Walters        8     4.5%
Waddell        8     5.2%
Elliott        8     10.0%
Stephens       8     16.7%
Ryan           8     19.5%
Arlett         8     100.0%
Gomez          8     100.0%
Oms            7     4.2%
Schang         7     7.2%
Cooper         7     100.0%
Bell           6     2.3%
Rizzuto        6     16.2%
Browning       5     2.5%
Welch          5     2.6%
Trouppe        5     3.7%
Grimes         5     4.5%
Doyle          5     5.2%
Taylor         5     16.1%
Lundy          5     45.5%
Maranville     5     100.0%
Trucks         5     100.0%
Lombardi       4     11.1%
Joss           4     13.8%
Newsom         4     20.0%
Rosen          4     36.4%
Burns          4     40.0%
Sain           4     100.0%
Mendez         3     1.6%
Johnson        3     4.2%
Monroe         3     8.8%
F. Jones       3     14.3%
Mullane        3     100.0%
Bancroft       3     100.0%
Kell           3     100.0%
Rice           2     5.7%
Leonard        2     5.9%
Mays           2     6.9%
Hooper         2     100.0%
Shocker        2     100.0%
Doby           1     0.1%
Trout          1     2.5%
Cicotte        1     5.6%
Clarkson       1     11.1%
Manush         1     100.0%

30. DavidFoss Posted: November 29, 2005 at 08:08 PM (#1751833)

Yeah, I'm a bit less concerned with *who* got the extra votes than I am with the more generic question as to whether the extra votes are giving me the coverage that we need. I don't want my Larry-Doyle fandom distracting me from the impressive amount of extra coverage that we seem to be getting with the new system. The top 17 all appearing on 20 or more ballots seems to be exactly what we hoped would happen.

I would be interested in seeing if there is any truth to the trend that OCF brought up. Were the 16-20 spots more consensus-biased? I can see a scenario where an opponent of a top-ten candidate held him back to 16 or 17 so as not to give him points. Are those voters more likely to hold them back further into the 21-22 range now? I admit that sounds a bit like strategic voting, though.

31. sunnyday2 Posted: November 29, 2005 at 10:28 PM (#1752117)

I guess I think the big question is whether there is "strategic bias," not to be confused with "strategic voting." By that I mean, are there any blind spots or strong spots that come out in consensus 1-20 more so than 1-15. I think there is indeed some evidence that this will hurt NeLers on the "elect the best, forget the rest" model.Not that it's conclusive by any means...

There is no evidence that it might help SNTs, but I wonder...

32. OCF Posted: November 30, 2005 at 03:14 AM (#1752467)

I've now debugged and agree with the 1-15 totals John gives at the top of the page. I haven't yet checked the 16-20 tallies.

Consensus scores are based on 1-15 votes. Average conensus score -10.9; highest possible score +7. All individual scores are negative. (The highest is about -0.25.)

Indvidually - a new spot for me.

OCF: 0
Howie Menckel: -2
SWW: -4
Andrew Siegel: -4
dan b: -4
Rusty Priske: -4
Tiboreau: -4
...
Al Peterson: -10
Adam Schafer: -10 (medians)
...
karlmagnus: -20
David Foss: -20
Gadfly: -20
Dolf Lucky: -20
Kelly in SD: -22
KJOK: -23
yest: -24

33. OCF Posted: November 30, 2005 at 03:57 AM (#1752487)

John - I'm picking up occasional differences on the 16-20 tally. Here's two:

I have Rixie with 3 16th place votes and no 17th - check Adam Schafer, Jim Sp, and Thane of Bagarth.

I have Willard Brown with one 16th place votes. Check Sean Gilman

It looks like an Browning got an extra 16th place vote - maybe that's Brown's vote.

I think that's all I have.

34. OCF Posted: November 30, 2005 at 04:20 AM (#1752505)

I tried this point scheme: 29-28-23-22-...-8-7-6 with the 6 for 20th place. Here are the top 25 vote getters in that scheme:

 1. Doby              897
 2. Slaughter         884
 3. Medwick           601   (Clearing above tie for 3rd in 1-15 tally)
 4. Lemon             587   (Up from 4th, jumping over Ruffing)
 5. Ruffing           570   (Down from T3)
 6. Mackey            494
 7. Rixie             472
 8. Griffith          439
 9. Sisler            431   (Up from 11th)
10. Van Haltren       399   (Down from 9th)
11. Bell              383   (Down from 10th)
12. Beckley           360   (Up from 13th)
13. Moore             357   (Down from 12th)
14. Brown             345
15. Childs            335
16. Duffy             331
17. Redding           327
18. Doerr             321   (Up from 22nd)
19. Gordon            292   (Up from 25th)
20. Kiner             291   (Up from 23rd)
21. Sewell            289 
22. Browning          286   (Down from 18th)
23. Mendez            271   (Down from 20th)
24. Walters           256
25. Welch             253   (Down from 19th)

I'm set up to try out other point schemes if anyone has a pet idea.

35. DavidFoss Posted: November 30, 2005 at 04:24 AM (#1752508)

karlmagnus: -20
David Foss: -20
Gadfly: -20

Wow... I finally made one of the lists. Slaughter's induction and Medwick's climb to 15th should bounce me back towards the median. I am indeed collecting teddy bears, though. :-)

36. sunnyday2 Posted: November 30, 2005 at 01:29 PM (#1752684)

In #34, 50 percent of NeL candidates (3 of 6) drop.

4 of 19 (21 percent) of white MLers drop.

37. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 30, 2005 at 03:00 PM (#1752751)

Thanks, OCF!

38. Howie Menckel Posted: November 30, 2005 at 05:04 PM (#1753064)

REVISED, to add Michael's ballot...

All-time 'vote points totals' leaders, through 1965. Active for 1966 vote in CAPS

Congrats to George Van Haltren on grabbing the top slot - will this lead to a belated induction, a la Jennings? Beckley and Duffy must hope so, too.....

VAN HALTREN 17232.5
Jennings 16976
BECKLEY 16504
DUFFY 16287.5
GRIFFITH 15818
BROWNING 14223.5
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
WADDELL 12272
CHILDS 12168

WELCH 11962
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10871.5
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9920
RIXEY 9602
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 8780
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232

BRESNAHAN 8078
Pearce 8073
TLEACH 8021
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(C Jones 7271, Sewell 6867, Redding 5548, Monroe 5543, Mendez 5351, Roush 5034, Mackey 4974, Ruffing 4952, Doyle 4950, Medwick 4746, Williamson 4548, CP Bell 4302)
(Moore 3540, Grimes 3469, McGraw 3387, Schang 3384)

39. OCF Posted: November 30, 2005 at 06:58 PM (#1753399)

I guess the name for Howie's list in #38 is that it's a list of "teddy bears." The most recent name on the main part of the list is Rixie, and he retired in 1933 at the age of 42.

40. Howie Menckel Posted: November 30, 2005 at 07:06 PM (#1753423)

Yes, that's inevitable, OCF.
You have to be on the ballot a long time to make the Top 25 - unless you rack up a ton of points, in which case you "ruin it" by getting elected. Ferrell got elected at the cusp of top 25, and Ruffing and Medwick also are liable to do the same before hitting that milestone.

41. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 30, 2005 at 10:42 PM (#1753929)

So just to be clear that no one minds picking up 13 more new names than appeared before? I've heard a lot of whinnying and knickering about setting records for highest number of guys to get a vote.

Also, let's make sure we get a couple more years of testing in before we draw any conclusions. It will be interesting to compare results of an election with a clear and obvious candidate like Williams to this last one.

42. Paul Wendt Posted: November 30, 2005 at 11:07 PM (#1753985)

Evan Membership Posted: November 29, 2005 at 01:51 PM (#1751672)
Draw your own conclusions on this.

Player 16-20 Points % of Total Points

If the backlog generally moves on-ballot because the number of strong new candidates is low during the next decade, a 17th place vote will not continue to be worth two 19s. Regarding what the 16th to 20th test bodes for particular candidates (which is beside the point of test), the number of votes is more important than the share of points. Bresnahan stands out as the "big winner" among present also-rans. The "losers" with dimmer prospects than the official tally suggests are Redding, Welch, Mendez, Oms, Grimes, Schang, Doyle (among those officially ahead of Bresnahan).

While the number of test votes is more important to prospects, this may be interesting in itself.

Share of his naysayers who rank him 16th to 20th
1/05 Doby
3/08 Slaughter
6/16 Medwick
4/20! Ruffing
9/19 Lemon
5/20 Mackey
8/25 Rixey
7/27 Griffith
9/26 Sisler
5/27 GVH
4/25 Bell
3/29 Beckley
5/31 Moore

43. Howie Menckel Posted: December 03, 2005 at 02:05 AM (#1757614)

It's a little odd that Browning is destined to rank 6th for the next several decades - and possibly even when we 'catch up' around 2007.

44. Jeff M Posted: December 03, 2005 at 03:37 PM (#1757963)

8 of GVH's 10 most similar are HoFers; 9 of 10 for Ryan; 7 of 10 for Duffy. Duffy's HoF monitor is a 151; sure beats Slaughter 91.
...
Slaughter deserves strong consideration but HoM voters owe it to themselves and even more importantly to messrs Duffy, Ryan and Van Haltren to scrutinize their records in comparison with their contemporaries and vote them a place in the pantheon of greats from the 19th century.

I think we have scrutinized their records. Sim Scores and HOF Monitor aren't going to tell the whole story unless you make some adjustments. The numbers you cited (1) don't take into account run environments, ballpark factors, etc. and (2) Slaughter missed three years b/c of WWII...and given his 1942 and 1946 seasons, I think we can determine he would have been pretty productive in the missing years.

Believe me, there has been no shortage of discussion about Duffy, Ryan and GVH over the life of the project. As you can see, none of them appear on more than 20 ballots (Duffy (#6) and Ryan (#17) appear on mine -- GVH is #31) and only 11 or 12 voters have Duffy and GVH in their top 10. Slaughter was on 38 ballots with 33 top 10 votes.

I do agree that Ryan has seemed to suffer as time wears on, although Duffy and GVH have pretty much been holding steady for 60+ "years".

45. sunnyday2 Posted: December 03, 2005 at 03:44 PM (#1757974)

I would be more impressed if 8 of GVH's 10 most similar are HoMers.

IOW which HoFers are they? (Rhetorical question: I can look it up myself, but still...)

46. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 03, 2005 at 04:03 PM (#1757997)

I am a huge fan of Duffy (#3 last year and PHOM a few years ago) and I see GVH right on the borderline (I had him at #20 last year one spot below Slaughter). However, Jimmy Ryan is languishing in the 40's for me and I cant' really say why. But when I try and take a look at him I never see a reason to move him up either.

I do have some theories on this...

1. WS loves CFers and is probably overrating the three of them. In my system, Ryan comes off the worst in WARP and in other measures as well.

2. We have peak voters and career voters, but sometimes the guys with a littel of both get left behind. I must admit players like this (Sewell, Ruffing maybe) aren't high on my ballot either. I see the three of them like this; Duffy=peak, GVH= career, Ryan=middle ground?. GVH's peak is as imrpessive as Ryan's is to me, however.

Also, Enos Slaughter may be the player most helped by war credit. Without it he isn't in my top 30, but he missed three prime (if not peak) years to the war. I think a lot of outsiders see him numbers and would think we made a mistake, but you have to add those missed years to his record. Of course, this from a guy who ranked him #19 last year because he doesn't like to extrapolate a peak.

47. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 03, 2005 at 04:05 PM (#1757999)

What was my similarity score this year OCF? I used to be one of the top two or three, but I have fallen pretty hard. Every year it seems that I am electing a PHOM not-HOM player (Duffy, Lemon, Redding, Keller the last three years).

48. sunnyday2 Posted: December 03, 2005 at 05:40 PM (#1758099)

To me Ryan's peak is better than GVH though Duffy is of course the peak-king of the three. So Duffy is around #20, GVH and Ryan below #50. Slaughter was better than any of them for peak and for career in my book, though I had him down at #10 and not-PHoM just yet.

49. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 03, 2005 at 05:46 PM (#1758107)

One way in which I measure Peak (and prime) is all WS over 25 (prime is over 15) in a career. By this measure GVH comes out a little better than Ryan.

I have Duffy's peak as enormous by WS when you schedule adjust so he was decidedly above Slaughter for me.

50. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 07, 2005 at 03:58 AM (#1765004)

Since we're discussing GVH . . . is he the Vada Pinson of the 1890s? Pinson was one of the guys I thought was pretty overlooked by the HoF for no reason . . . but looking at it, I'd say GVH is a significantly better than Pinson - Pinson may be the ultimate HoVG player.

51. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 07, 2005 at 04:02 AM (#1765010)

Check out Pinson through 1965 . . . that's a heckuva comp list:

Pinson 1958-65

Then he just kind of got old quick and wasn't ever really more than just a good player. Reminds me of Andruw Jones, before his 2005 renaissance.

52. sunnyday2 Posted: December 07, 2005 at 04:52 AM (#1765067)

>Andruw Jones, before his 2005 renaissance.

What renaissance?

53. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 07, 2005 at 08:01 AM (#1765182)

Andruw did have a career high OPS+ in 2005 after 3 straight years of slippage . . .

54. sunnyday2 Posted: December 07, 2005 at 12:22 PM (#1765251)

I forget, what was his OPS+ this year?

55. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 07, 2005 at 12:40 PM (#1765262)

133

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Monday, November 28, 2005

1965 Results: Doby is Hall of Merit Bound; Slaughter Makes a “Mad Dash” Into It, Too!

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