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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, December 12, 20051966 Results: HoM Fans Bid Kid Hello! The Hall of Merit Also Sees “Red!”In his first year of eligibility, hitting legend Ted Williams became the Hall of Merit’s eighth unanimous choice in its history (Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, and Joe DiMaggio were the other similarly honored inductees). After fourteen elections, Yankee pitching star Red Ruffing finally was rewarded by the electorate. He narrowly bested Joe Medwick with only 39% of all possible points. Rounding out the top-ten were: Bob Lemon, Biz Mackey, Eppa Rixey, George Sisler (big move up for “Gorgeous George”), George Van Haltren, Clark Griffith, and Cool Papa Bell. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Ted Williams 1152 48 48 2 4 Red Ruffing 447 28 5 4 2 6 4 1 3 1 1 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 3 Joe Medwick 423 32 3 4 3 4 1 2 2 2 3 4 2 2 4 5 Bob Lemon 400 28 4 2 2 2 5 1 2 2 1 2 4 1 5 6 Biz Mackey 348 28 1 2 2 2 4 1 7 1 1 3 2 2 6 7 Eppa Rixey 342 26 2 4 3 1 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 4 7 11 George Sisler 303 25 1 2 2 2 4 2 3 1 2 2 1 3 8 9 George Van Haltren 298 22 3 3 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 3 9 8 Clark Griffith 284 18 4 1 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 10 10 Cool Papa Bell 268 22 4 2 1 1 4 3 1 3 3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 13 Jake Beckley 246 18 3 1 3 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 12 15 Cupid Childs 240 19 1 2 1 1 2 2 4 2 1 2 1 13 12 Dobie Moore 240 15 4 2 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 14 17 Cannonball Dick Redding 239 18 1 1 2 4 2 2 1 3 1 1 15 16 Hugh Duffy 236 19 3 3 3 2 2 3 1 1 1 16 14 Willard Brown 233 20 1 1 2 1 3 1 5 1 1 2 1 1 17 18 Pete Browning 227 16 3 1 2 1 1 1 3 2 2 18 19 José Méndez 225 18 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 19 22 Bobby Doerr 202 18 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 20 20 Mickey Welch 194 11 3 2 2 1 2 1 21 24 Bucky Walters 190 15 1 2 1 4 2 2 2 1 22 25 Joe Gordon 182 16 1 1 1 1 1 3 4 1 1 2 23 21 Joe Sewell 178 14 3 1 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 24 23 Ralph Kiner 170 14 2 4 1 1 2 2 1 1 25 26 Alejandro Oms 170 12 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 26 28 Charley Jones 166 13 1 2 1 3 2 1 1 2 27 27 Rube Waddell 149 13 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 1 2 28 29 Quincy Trouppe 131 12 1 1 3 1 4 1 1 29 30 Tommy Leach 125 10 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 30 31 Burleigh Grimes 117 9 1 2 1 2 2 1 31 32 Larry Doyle 102 7 2 2 1 2 32 35 Edd Roush 100 9 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 33 34 Roger Bresnahan 96 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 34 33 Wally Schang 93 7 1 1 2 1 1 1 35 38 Gavy Cravath 92 7 1 1 2 2 1 36 36 Bob Elliott 79 8 2 1 2 3 37 37 Bob Johnson 70 8 1 1 1 3 2 38 39 John McGraw 64 5 1 1 2 1 39 41 Tommy Bridges 52 5 1 1 2 1 40 40 Charlie Keller 50 4 1 2 1 41 47T Dizzy Dean 44 5 1 1 1 1 1 42 42 Vern Stephens 43 3 1 1 1 43 43 Ed Williamson 40 4 1 1 1 1 44 44 Dizzy Trout 38 3 1 1 1 45 55 Carl Mays 37 4 1 1 2 46 46 Vic Willis 36 3 1 1 1 47 52 Phil Rizzuto 34 4 1 1 1 1 48 53 Bill Monroe 34 3 1 1 1 49 50 Dutch Leonard 33 3 2 1 50T 47T Jimmy Ryan 32 3 1 1 1 50T 56 Ben Taylor 32 3 1 1 1 52 45 Luke Easter 32 2 1 1 53 51 Ernie Lombardi 31 2 1 1 54 54 Frank Chance 30 3 1 2 55T 57T Chuck Klein 27 2 1 1 55T 60T Pie Traynor 27 2 1 1 57 57T Addie Joss 24 2 1 1 58 47T Sam Rice 20 2 1 1 59 64 Bobo Newsom 18 2 1 1 60 59 Leroy Matlock 18 1 1 61 76T George J. Burns 17 2 1 1 62 60T Fielder Jones 17 1 1 63T 62T Ed Cicotte 16 1 1 63T 65 Johnny Pesky 16 1 1 63T 62T Bobby Veach 16 1 1 66 76T Dick Lundy 12 2 2 67T 66T Tommy Bond 12 1 1 67T 66T Fred Dunlap 12 1 1 69 68T Joe Tinker 11 1 1 70T 70 Artie Wilson 10 1 1 70T 68T Sam Leever 10 1 1 72 71T Bus Clarkson 9 1 1 73 74T Murray Dickson 8 1 1 74 71T Hack Wilson 7 1 1 75T n/e Wilbur Cooper 6 1 1 75T 74T Al Rosen 6 1 1 75T n/e Virgil Trucks 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Mickey Vernon(71T). Ballots Cast: 48 John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: December 12, 2005 at 05:03 PM | 41 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 13, 2005 at 01:03 AM (#1774545)Medwick fans need to wait one more "year." Lemon, too.
Rusty Priske: +2
RMc: +2
Howie Menckel: 0
DanG: 0
Daryn: -1
Don F: -1
Adam Schafer: -1
OCF: -1
...
Jeff M: -6
Rob Wood: -6
...
Ron Wargo: -12
Gadfly: -12
Kelly in SD: -12
Jim Sp: -12
John Murphy: -13
Dolf Lucky: -14
If we are to go by my ballot Ruffing is the worst selectoin we have made since 1935 (my first year), just beating out Max Carey. However since he is in the mid thirties I can't say that he is an awful selection. A real borderline guy that I would say is borderline out but I can live with it.
Good question. Joe?
Actually, based on the current standings of the people in 2nd and 3rd place, and the number of 16-20 votes each has, it is highly UNLIKELY that any method for counting the 16-20 votes would result in any change at all.
You might be surprised. Evan was more or less right - this time. But it could have been different. Here are the top handful in four different systems:
Standard 15: 24-23-19-18-...-7-6-0-0-0-0-0
1152 Williams
447 Ruffing
423 Medwick
400 Lemon
348 Mackey
342 Rixie
303 Sisler
298 Van Haltren
284 Griffith
Lo-20: 24-23-19-18-...-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
1152 Williams
459 Ruffing
438 Medwick
425 Lemon
360 Mackey
359 Rixie
329 Sisler
321 Griffith
304 Van Haltren
Hi-20: 29-28-24-23-...-12-11-10-9-8-7-6
1392 Williams
624 Ruffing
621 Medwick
604 Lemon
522 Rixie
519 Mackey
493 Sisler
455 Griffith
422 Van Haltren
Lo-15: 19-18-13-12-...-2-1-0-0-0-0-0
912 Williams
307 Ruffing
263 Medwick
260 Lemon
212 Rixie
208 Mackey
194 Griffith
188 Van Haltren
178 Sisler
Through most of the election, Medwick was ahead of Ruffing on the "Hi-20" system, which keeps an on-ballot bonus. If I were to count Patrick W's comment on Medwick as a #16 vote instead of disregarding it, he would be ahead even now.
The thing about having an on-ballot bonus is that it rewards players for simply being on ballots, and Medwick was on more ballots than Ruffing.
VAN HALTREN 17530.5
Jennings 16976
BECKLEY 16750
DUFFY 16523.5
GRIFFITH 16102
BROWNING 14450.5
Pike 13399
WADDELL 12421
Thompson 12349
CHILDS 12316
WELCH 12156
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10903.5
Caruthers 10704
RIXEY 9944
Beckwith 9920
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 9083
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
BRESNAHAN 8174
TLEACH 8146
Pearce 8073
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(C Jones 7437, Sewell 7045, Redding 5787, Monroe 5577, Mendez 5576, Mackey 5322, Medwick 5169, Roush 5134, Doyle 5052, Williamson 4588, CP Bell 4570)
(Moore 3780, Grimes 3586, Schang 3477, McGraw 3451)
Go me! :)
I vote for the 20 man ballot. I like it.
Take your time, OCF.
Just my .02.
Ted Williams is the eighth man to go into the Hall of Fame with 100% support and Charley "Red" Ruffing joins him with 10% support.
48 Ted Williams
[gap]
5 Red Ruffing
4 Bob Lemon
4 Clark Griffith
4 Dobie Moore
Rounding out the top ten with three votes each: Joe Medwick, George Van Haltren, Jake Beckley, Pete Browning, and Mickey Welch.
The details suggest that Medwick and Eppa Rixey will do much better next year.
Gadfly: -12
Kelly in SD: -12
Jim Sp: -12
John Murphy: -13
Dolf Lucky: -14
Am I becoming the norm?
Yep, you just named the two.
If I get a consensus that it is OK, I will post it. But I do feel that posting kind of destroys the process.
What we could do was say that during the holiday, in lieu of posting, you are allowed to tell Murphy to use the first 15 unelected selections from your 1966 ballot instead of posting an actual ballot.
That will make life easy on the ballot-counters and everyone else this week.
Of course, if you want to vote for a '67 newbie, definitely submit a changed ballot when voting starts.
It'd be Medwick & Lemon. Mackey & Rixey have too much ground to make up with just 16th & 17th place votes. There would need to be significant re-evaluation from multiple voters to prevent their induction.
I suppose anyone against their induction should speak up. I have them 15th & 16th in my prelim, behind Mackey but ahead of Rixey.
Exactly, Ron.
If anyone posts something to that effect, I will be forced to erase it. You'll just have to wait the same way that you have to wait for your Christmas and Hanukah gifts. :-)
There's ALWAYS room for at least a little reevaluation, especially now. And I'm not copying others' picks when I sometimes reevaluate; this is a damned smart group, and sometimes when I dismiss a player, another look shows me that I was missing something after all (and then there's a guy like Mackey, who I've looked again at maybe 5 times, and so far, he's had no luck. But he's almost due for yet another fair chance from me).
Many players who just fell off our ballots 25 and 30 years ago now probably belong on a weakened ballot. Yet they've been forgotten. I have been meaning to look once more at Frank Chance, and there was a good post on him in the discussion thread this week. If he passes muster, he could well make my top 20 for the first time in decades.
I know some voters have Lemon high and Rixey off their ballots entirely. Ok, but look at my post in the discussion thread and at least consider whether you should have Lemon higher at all, much less 15 and 20 spaces higher!
And I'll consider whatever rebuttals are submitted as well. Might even change my Rixey ranking, if it's compelling.
I think if your holdovers never move up or down at ALL relative to each other for at least 5 years, you are probably not doing this project justice. I can't believe that there isn't a scintilla of evidence that can be unearthed that you didn't previously grasp.
I'd say that for now we should stick with the 15 man ballot, since it doesn't appear to make much of a difference, and all things equal we should lean towards being consistent . . . does that make sense? I'm totally open to compelling logic stating otherwise.
Also, we should still require everyone to post a ballot next week - seems to me it would be a pain in the butt to tell the counters to go check an old thread and pull the top 15 remaining. If the counters can't count on 12/26 for whatever reason (being out of town, etc.) we can always delay the results a few days.
Should we add a week of discussion, or is it okay to have the week of 12/26-1/2 as a discussion week and vote again 1/2-1/9? Will we miss anything, etc.?
I'd vote for another week of discussion because 12/25-1/1 is a vacation week for many and because Ashburn versus the backlog in 1968 deserves a full discussion.
The only changes to my post #10 would be to raise Ruffing on the "Lo-20" from 459 to 462 and on the "Hi-20" from 624 to 632.
As I offered there - I'm set up to run nearly any vote-point scheme to see what would happen.
Exactly, Ron.
If anyone posts something to that effect, I will be forced to erase it.
I'm sorry, but this is wrong.
As things stand now, the 1967 election IS meaningless, at the top, anyway. Medwick and Lemon are obviously shoo-ins. As David Foss points out, there seems to be little chance of anyone overtaking them.
But is this really true, or does it only seem to be? My idea in #25 is that by doing "indicated" results for 1967, voters would know exactly what the consequences are of stagnation. It's to say, "If you don't reassess things, these are the results we'll end up with. Are you sure that's what you want?"
Really, it's no big deal if someone posts it or not. The really interesting election will be 1968, as EricC indicates. Who among Ashburn/Mackey/Rixey should be the odd man out? Or is there another? Like Howie said, "There's ALWAYS room for at least a little reevaluation, especially now."
The 1967 elections are only shoo-ins if nearly everybody refuses to take an annual look at their selections.
Since I posted my protestation (and obviously not just because of me), the ballto discussion thread has produced a lot of healthy debate.
We don't need any projected figures. We know who 'appears to be ahead' already.
What we need is everyone to do as much effort as time permits as deeply down the ballot as time allows.
And then whatever happens, happens.
I'm with you. Except, I see only benefit from making projections. I really don't understand why projections of any sort would be suppressed. Freedom of inquiry. We think we know who 'appears to be ahead'. Are there illusions in the data that subtly affect what we're seeing? By looking at the issue in different ways, we learn more. Also, it can lead to more questioning whether it ought to be that way.
An impending result that wildly contradicts a voter's system ought to bring forth strong and persistent arguments from said voter against that result. (Carping after the fact is less productive.) I would even go so far to say it is the duty of a conscientious voter to make that strong arguement. Lacking this, the voter should have no choice but to undertake changes in his system to bring it into closer agreement with the choice of the consensus.
For this election, it means that the voters who did not have Medwick or Lemon in their top 20 in 1966 need to speak up now. It is incumbent on the 11 EOJM and the 12 EOBL to do their best to torpedo Ducky and Bob's rush into the HoM, especially if they are FOBM or FOER.
As you said, "What we need is everyone to do as much effort as time permits."
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O'Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , Clark Griffith , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Ed Barrow , Chief Bender , Tom Connolly , Bill Klem , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr , Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
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