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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, December 27, 20051967 Results: The Hall of Merit is Just “Ducky” Over Medwick - Lemon Also Not Considered a “Lemon!”In his fourteenth year of eligibility, Cardinal and Dodger slugger Joe Medwick claimed the top spot for immortality with 45% of all possible points. In his fourth year on the ballot, Cleveland Indians’ ace pitcher Bob Lemon was inducted into the HoM with 42% of all possible points. None of the newly eligible made any impact upon the electorate this “year.” A record 81 names appeared on a ballot for this election. Rounding out the top-ten were: Eppa Rixey, Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith, George Sisler, George Van Haltren, Cool Papa Bell, Jake Beckley (back in the top-ten after many an election on the outside looking in), and Cannonball Dick Redding (first time in the top-ten). RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 3 Joe Medwick 483 34 4 4 2 2 2 1 3 1 4 2 1 2 5 1 2 4 Bob Lemon 448 30 3 3 1 5 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 3 2 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 6 Eppa Rixey 408 26 3 4 3 2 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 4 5 Biz Mackey 363 28 1 3 3 2 3 6 2 1 1 4 1 1 5 9 Clark Griffith 334 22 4 2 2 4 1 1 2 1 4 1 6 7 George Sisler 328 24 1 4 2 1 4 1 2 1 1 3 2 1 1 7 8 George Van Haltren 308 21 2 3 2 1 3 1 2 3 2 2 8 10 Cool Papa Bell 284 20 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 2 1 2 2 1 9 11 Jake Beckley 278 19 3 2 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 10 14 Cannonball Dick Redding 267 18 1 2 2 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 13 Dobie Moore 261 16 4 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 12 16 Willard Brown 253 20 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 13 12 Cupid Childs 246 18 1 2 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 14 17 Pete Browning 244 16 3 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 15 18 José Méndez 235 16 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 16 15 Hugh Duffy 232 17 3 2 4 1 1 1 1 2 2 17 19 Bobby Doerr 225 17 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 4 2 18 23 Joe Sewell 212 15 3 1 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 19 24 Ralph Kiner 211 17 1 4 1 2 3 2 1 1 1 1 20 26 Charley Jones 194 14 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 21 22 Joe Gordon 193 16 1 1 1 1 3 2 1 2 2 2 22 21 Bucky Walters 187 14 2 1 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 23 20 Mickey Welch 177 9 3 2 1 2 1 24 25 Alejandro Oms 175 11 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 25 27 Rube Waddell 174 14 1 1 2 1 1 3 2 2 1 26 28 Quincy Trouppe 151 13 2 1 2 2 1 2 1 2 27 33 Roger Bresnahan 144 13 1 1 1 2 2 1 5 28 29 Tommy Leach 139 11 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 29 30 Burleigh Grimes 138 10 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 30 31 Larry Doyle 124 8 2 2 1 1 1 1 31 32 Edd Roush 120 9 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 32 35 Gavy Cravath 107 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 33 36 Bob Elliott 99 9 2 1 2 1 1 1 1 34 34 Wally Schang 98 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 35 37 Bob Johnson 79 8 2 1 2 2 1 36 40 Charlie Keller 75 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 37 38 John McGraw 68 5 1 1 1 1 1 38 39 Tommy Bridges 67 6 1 1 2 2 39 43 Ed Williamson 50 5 1 1 1 1 1 40 54 Frank Chance 46 5 1 1 1 2 41 44 Dizzy Trout 46 3 1 1 1 42 41 Dizzy Dean 42 4 1 1 1 1 43T 47 Phil Rizzuto 41 4 1 1 1 1 43T 50T Jimmy Ryan 41 4 1 2 1 45T 48 Bill Monroe 41 3 1 1 1 45T 50T Ben Taylor 41 3 1 1 1 47T 53 Ernie Lombardi 39 3 1 1 1 47T 46 Vic Willis 39 3 1 1 1 49 58 Sam Rice 37 4 1 1 2 50 52 Luke Easter 35 2 1 1 51 45 Carl Mays 34 3 1 1 1 52 55T Pie Traynor 32 2 1 1 53T 49 Dutch Leonard 30 3 1 1 1 53T 42 Vern Stephens 30 3 1 1 1 55 55T Chuck Klein 26 2 1 1 56T 62 Fielder Jones 25 2 1 1 56T 57 Addie Joss 25 2 1 1 56T 63T Bobby Veach 25 2 1 1 59 60 Leroy Matlock 23 1 1 60 67T Fred Dunlap 21 2 1 1 61 61 George J. Burns 19 2 1 1 62 n/e Dom DiMaggio 18 2 1 1 63 63T Ed Cicotte 17 1 1 64 72 Bus Clarkson 16 2 1 1 65 63T Johnny Pesky 16 1 1 66 n/e Tetelo Vargas 14 1 1 67T 67T Tommy Bond 13 1 1 67T 59 Bobo Newsom 13 1 1 67T 69 Joe Tinker 13 1 1 70 n/e Lefty Gomez 12 2 2 71 70T Artie Wilson 11 1 1 72 70T Sam Leever 10 1 1 73T 74 Hack Wilson 8 1 1 73T 66 Dick Lundy 8 1 1 73T 75T Virgil Trucks 8 1 1 76T n/e Wally Berger 7 1 1 76T 75T Wilbur Cooper 7 1 1 76T n/e Rabbit Maranville 7 1 1 76T 75T Al Rosen 7 1 1 76T n/e Mickey Vernon 7 1 1 81 n/e Buzz Arlett 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Murray Dickson(73). Ballots Cast: 45 Ballots Cast: 45 John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: December 27, 2005 at 12:51 AM | 66 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 01:04 AM (#1795066)Rixey now appears to be almost certainly a HoMer in '68.
He was also there in '66, karlmagnus. ;-)
I have Bob Johnson with two 14th place votes and 79 points instead of 72.
The flip side is that I have no 14th place votes for Lemon, and 448 points instead of 455.
14th place votes for Johnson were cast by Patrick W (#59) and Devin McCullen (#84). Both of them gave higher votes to Lemon, and those higher votes seem to have been correctly tallied.
Otherwise, it checks.
You're right. Sorry about that.
PhillyBooster and Brad G. both seem to have left us after 1964, and Chris J. ended a 5-year return to voting in 1963. Sporadic voter RMc appeared in 1966 but not 1967, but then he hasn't voted two years in a row in over 40 years.
Took care of that problem and updated the numbers at the top of the thread. Thanks for picking it up!
Best possible consensus score was +1. The most disagreed-about player was Rixie, followed by Griffith, followed by Moore. But really, we disagreed about everybody.
The average consensus score was -15.0, easily topping (bottoming?) the old record of -13.8 in 1961.
Individual scores:
DanG: -8
Adam Schafer: -8
Rusty Priske: -8
Daryn: -8
Howie Menckel: -8
Don F: -9
TomH: -9
jscmeagol: -9
...
favre: -15 (median)
...
yest: -18
...
karlmagnus: -18
...
Mark Donelson: -20
Eric C: -20
Jim Sp: -21
Kelly in SD: -21
KJOK: -22
Gadfly: -22
John Murphy: -22
Dolf Lucky: -25
That will move up next election. Brown, Childs, and Browning are right outside the top-ten, while Moore may make my official ballot next "year."
The top 11:
BILL MONROE 688
Lip Pike 671
TOMMY LEACH 631
CUPID CHILDS 514
Dickey Pearce 469
GEORGE VAN HALTREN 440
Charlie Bennett 398
Hughie Jennings 373
JOE SEWELL 368
CANNONBALL DICK REDDING 363
JIMMY RYAN 355 (Nowhere near my top 15 these days, though.)
The next highest who's currently on my ballot is Willard Brown at 143.
If nothing changes, it's possible Leach will catch Monroe before we're up to the present day, depeneding on how many bonus points he gets.
her's a list of eligible or elected HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoF man./exe.c with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O'Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , Clark Griffith , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr , Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
Though if you want to know who the Not-Quite-Ready-For-Prime-Time-Players are, the-almost,-but-not-quite-there players, just look to my ballot: numbers 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 20, 22, 23, 24, 26, and 28.
My consensus score could go up as Dobie Moore will be on the '68 ballot and Willard Brown is competing with Grimes and Burns for the 15th spot.
Hope everyone's Christmas/Boxing Day/Festivus/Kwanzaa was fantastic and your Hanukkah continues to be excellent.
Beckley climbed to No. 2; Duffy claims No. 3 next year.... Childs may pass Waddell for 8th next year.... Welch on the cusp of the top 10... Bresnahan grabs top-20 slot by a nose over twin Leach.... CJones makes the top 25 at last next year.
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 17838.5
BECKLEY 17028
Jennings 16976
DUFFY 16755.5
GRIFFITH 16436
BROWNING 14694.5
Pike 13399
WADDELL 12595
CHILDS 12560
Thompson 12349
WELCH 12333
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10944
Caruthers 10704
RIXEY 10352
Beckwith 9920
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 9411
Start 8378.5
BRESNAHAN 8318
TLEACH 8285
McGinnity 8232
Pearce 8073
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
OTHER TOP 25 ACTIVE
(C Jones 7631, Sewell 7257, Redding 6054, Mendez 5811, Mackey 5685, Monroe 5618, Roush 5254, Doyle 5176, CP Bell 4854, Williamson 4638, Moore 4041, Grimes 3724)
ALMOST
(Schang 3575, McGraw 3519)
Traynor should get 6 more points from me in '68, yest.
The difference is 2 points, Mark.
I can't answer that, at least not fully. But during the voting I tabulated "significant" movement. Meaning--a player who moved into the #2 slot and got the 4 point bonus, or a player that moved on to a ballot and got in effect a 6 point bonus, or a player who leapfrogged or was leapfrogged by 2 or more other players. See what I mean.
Every player this year was bound to get about 1.5 more points per ballot that they were on because Ted Williams and, in about half of the cases, Red Ruffing, were dropping off. That would all cancel out except for players making "significant" movement.
(Of course a little fewer than half of the voters include their previous year's rankings for each player, so my tabulation represented a sample, but a pretty good sample insofar as I was able to assume that at least one player on each ballot was getting a new bonus at #2 or #15. Of course, those who had voted for Ruffing last year also had a second "new" player on their ballot and I did not compare ballots to last year among those who don't put last year's ranking on their new ballot, so these totals overlook this source of additional votes. And for those voters who do not supply last year's ranking I might have missed some "significant" movement within the ballot.)
(For the record only 3 of the 20 or so ballots that do include last year's ranking had any "significant" movement within the ballot. Quincy Trouppe was the most active with -2, -4 and +5. The big gainers were Joe Medwick with a +5 and Ralph Kiner with a +2 and a +3. Kiner was the only player with 2 such moves, both positive. The big loser was Bucky Walters with a -2 and a -3, and he was the only player with 2 such moves, both negative. GVH, Mackey, Bell and W. Brown each had 2 such moves, one up and one down.)
So what I came up with was this:
1. Joe Medwick was the big gainer with 3 new bonuses (#2 rankings) and 4 times newly on the ballot (newly versus the previous year), plus a jump of +5 in the middle of another ballot. Total increase +41.
2. Roger Bresnahan--1 bonus, 5 new ballots = +34
3. Eppa Rixey--4 bonuses, 2 newly on ballot and +3 = +31
4. Bob Lemon--3 bonuses, 2 new ballots = +24
(tie.) George Van Haltren--1 new ballot, 4 new bonuses, +2 = +24
6. Ralph Kiner--3 new ballots, +5 = +23
7 (tie). Griffith, Beckley and Browning +20
10 (tie). Sewell and Doerr +18
These moved up due to positive action by 1967 voters, not strictly by low turnout among voters for those whom they leapfrogged.
RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 3 Joe Medwick 491 38 4 4 2 2 2 1 3 1 4 2 1 2 5 1 2 2
2 4 Bob Lemon 469 36 3 3 1 5 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 3 2 1 2 1 2 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 6 Eppa Rixey 418 32 3 4 3 2 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 4 2
4 5 Biz Mackey 369 30 1 3 3 2 3 6 2 1 1 4 1 1 1 1
5 9 Clark Griffith 350 27 4 2 2 4 1 1 2 1 4 1 2 1 1 1
6 7 George Sisler 349 31 1 4 2 1 4 1 2 1 1 3 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 2
7 8 George Van Haltren 317 24 2 3 2 1 3 1 2 3 2 2 1 1 1
8 10 Cool Papa Bell 304 25 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 2 1 2 2 1 1 3 1
9 13 Dobie Moore 280 21 4 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1
10 11 Jake Beckley 280 20 3 2 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 14 Cannonball Dick Redding 278 21 1 2 2 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1
12 12 Cupid Childs 262 23 1 2 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 1
13 16 Willard Brown 261 22 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 1
14 17 Pete Browning 257 21 3 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 3 2
15 15 Hugh Duffy 254 22 3 2 4 1 1 1 1 2 2 4 1
16 19 Bobby Doerr 249 23 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 4 2 4 1 1
17 18 José Méndez 248 19 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2
18 24 Ralph Kiner 238 24 1 4 1 2 3 2 1 1 1 1 3 2 2
19 23 Joe Sewell 228 20 3 1 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 1
20 22 Joe Gordon 209 22 1 1 1 1 3 2 1 2 2 2 1 3 2
21 26 Charley Jones 196 15 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1
22 21 Bucky Walters 195 16 2 1 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 2
23 27 Rube Waddell 186 17 1 1 2 1 1 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
24 20 Mickey Welch 185 11 3 2 1 2 1 1 1
25 25 Alejandro Oms 184 15 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2
26 33 Roger Bresnahan 160 17 1 1 1 2 2 1 5 2 1 1
27 28 Quincy Trouppe 160 16 2 1 2 2 1 2 1 2 1 1 1
28 30 Burleigh Grimes 153 14 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 1
29 29 Tommy Leach 144 14 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2
30 32 Edd Roush 138 14 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1
31 31 Larry Doyle 131 11 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 2
32 35 Gavy Cravath 115 11 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2
33 36 Bob Elliott 108 12 2 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 1
34 34 Wally Schang 100 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1
35 40 Charlie Keller 83 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
36 37 Bob Johnson 82 9 2 1 2 2 1 1
37 38 John McGraw 68 5 1 1 1 1 1
38 39 Tommy Bridges 67 6 1 1 2 2
39 41 Dizzy Dean 55 8 1 1 1 1 2 1 1
40 48 Bill Monroe 55 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
41 47 Phil Rizzuto 53 9 1 1 1 1 3 1 1
42 50T Jimmy Ryan 53 8 1 2 1 1 2 1
43 54 Frank Chance 52 7 1 1 1 2 1 1
44 43 Ed Williamson 52 6 1 1 1 1 1 1
45 44 Dizzy Trout 48 4 1 1 1 1
46 55T Pie Traynor 47 8 1 1 1 1 2 2
47 53 Ernie Lombardi 45 5 1 1 1 1 1
48 46 Vic Willis 44 5 1 1 1 1 1
49 50T Ben Taylor 43 4 1 1 1 1
50 45 Carl Mays 41 6 1 1 1 1 1 1
51 58 Sam Rice 40 5 1 1 2 1
52 52 Luke Easter 37 3 1 1 1
53 42 Vern Stephens 35 5 1 1 1 1 1
54 49 Dutch Leonard 35 4 1 1 1 1
55 55T Chuck Klein 30 4 1 1 1 1
56T 62 Fielder Jones 29 3 1 1 1
56T 57 Addie Joss 29 3 1 1 1
58 63T Bobby Veach 25 2 1 1
59 61 George J. Burns 23 3 1 1 1
60 60 Leroy Matlock 23 1 1
61 63T Ed Cicotte 21 3 1 1 1
62 67T Fred Dunlap 21 2 1 1
63 59 Bobo Newsom 20 3 1 1 1
64 65 Dom DiMaggio 18 2 1 1
65 72 Bus Clarkson 16 2 1 1
66 63T Johnny Pesky 16 1 1
67 75T Al Rosen 15 4 1 1 1 1
68 n/e Tetelo Vargas 14 1 1
69T 67T Tommy Bond 13 1 1
69T 69 Joe Tinker 13 1 1
71 72 Buzz Arlett 12 3 1 1 1
72 75 Lefty Gomez 12 2 2
73 75T Wilbur Cooper 11 3 1 1 1
74 77T Mickey Vernon 11 2 1 1
75 70T Artie Wilson 11 1 1
76 66 Dick Lundy 10 2 1 1
77 70T Sam Leever 10 1 1
78 85T Tony Mullane 9 4 1 2 1
79 74 Hack Wilson 9 2 1 1
80 81T Wally Berger 8 2 1 1
81 75T Virgil Trucks 8 1 1
82 81T Rabbit Maranville 7 1 1
83 n/e Urban Shocker 6 2 1 1
84T 85T Dave Bancroft 5 1 1
84T n/e Jack Quinn 5 1 1
84T 81T Johnny Sain 5 1 1
87 87 Spotswood Poles 4 2 1 1
88 88T Harry Hooper 4 1 1
89T 88T George Kell 3 1 1
89T n/e Jack Powell 3 1 1
91T 88T Chet Brewer 2 1 1
91T 92 Herman Long 2 1 1
91T n/e Dolph Luque 2 1 1
94T n/e Kiki Cuyler 1 1 1
94T 80 Waite Hoyt 1 1 1
94T 88T Ed Konetchy 1 1 1
94T n/e Tony Lazzeri 1 1 1
94T n/e Heinie Manush 1 1 1
Dropped Out: Murray Dickson(73).
Ballots Cast: 45
I checked my comments via ExpressionEngine and both tags were there, so something weird is going on.
HOM batters by percentage of games played at position (min. 10 pct to be listed)
C (8.03) - Cochrane 100, Dickey 100, Hartnett 98, Gibson 95, Campanella 95, Bennett 88, Santop 75, Ewing 47, Kelly 36, McVey 30, White 28, O'Rourke 11
1B (13.49) - Start 100, Gehrig 100, Mize 100, Terry 99, Brouthers 98, Leonard 95, Connor 88, Foxx 87, Anson 83, Greenberg 83, Suttles 70, Wilson 45, Stovey 37, Charleston 35, McVey 31, Jennings 26, Lloyd 25, Heilmann 22, Ewing 19, Kelley 16, Delahanty 15, Hines 12, Lajoie 12, Spalding 11, O'Rourke 10, Dihigo 10, JRobinson 10, Irvin 10
2B (10.15) - McPhee 100, Gehringer 99, E Collins 98, Herman 95, Lajoie 83, Frisch 77, Hornsby 72, Grant 70, Barnes 69, JRobinson 65, Richardson 43, Ward 26, HR Johnson 25, Groh 20, Hill 20, Pike 18, Dihigo 15, Wright 10, Wilson 10
3B (7.23) - Baker 100, J Collins 98, Hack 98, Groh 79, Sutton 69, White 51, Beckwith 50, Wilson 40, Davis 22, Frisch 20, Wallace 18, Dihigo 15, JRobinson 15, McVey 14, Richardson 13, Vaughan 11, Ott 10
SS (15.18) - Pearce 96, Boudreau 95, Reese 95, Glasscock 94, Appling 94, Cronin 92, Wells 90, HWright 89, Dahlen 88, Vaughan 85, Wallace 77, Jennings 70, HR Johnson 70, Lloyd 70, Wagner 68, Davis 58, Ward 44, Beckwith 35, Barnes 28, Grant 20, Sutton 19, Hornsby 16, Dihigo 15, Irvin 10
OF (37.84) - Carey 100, Clarke 100, Hamilton 100, Thompson 100, Wheat 100, Goslin 100, DiMaggio 100, Averill 100, Doby 100, Slaughter 100, TWilliams 100, Simmons 99, Burkett 99, Cobb 99, Flick 99, Gore 99, Sheckard 99, Speaker 99, Medwick 99, Jackson 98, Stearnes 98, Keeler 97, PWaner 97, Crawford 94, Ruth 92, Magee 91, Ott 90, Hines 82, Torriente 80, Kelley 79, Heilmann 77, Irvin 75, Pike 73, Delahanty 72, Hill 70, O'Rourke 69, Rogan 65, Stovey 63, Charleston 60, Caruthers 50, Kelly 47, Richardson 40, Suttles 30, Santop 20, Dihigo 20, McVey 18, Ewing 17, Greenberg 17, Davis 13, Spalding 13, Wagner 13, Ward 11, White 10, JRobinson 10
SP (31.23) - Alexander 100, Covaleski 100, Faber 100, Plank 100, Vance 100, Grove 100, Hubbell 100, Lyons 100, Newhouser 100, Feller 100, Ruffing 100, R Foster 99, Brown 99, Mathewson 99, Walsh 99, Williams 99, Young 99, B Foster 99, Paige 99, W Johnson 98, McGinnity 98, WFerrell 97, Lemon 97, Keefe 96, Nichols 96, Rusie 95, RBrown 95, Clarkson 94, Galvin 92, Radbourn 78, Spalding 72, Caruthers 47, Rogan 35, Dihigo 25, Ward 16
INF: 54.08
OF:: 37.84
P::: 31.23
1st base+outfield: 51.33
All other hitters: 40.59
Caveats: Totals treat all careers as equal. A little off on players like McVey and Sutton due to changing schedule length. Guesstimates on Negro Leaguers. Doesn't sufficiently represent pitching weight of players like Ruth or Caruthers.
P.S. I'd be open to 'improvements' on numbers for McVey/Sutton/Ruth/Caruthers types, and all Negro Leaguers.
As far as catcher is concerned, it is a position that seems, at least to me, to have a very all or nothing quality to it. There have been very few (Bresnahan? maybe Schang?) borderline or backlog guys at the position from MLB. We either have easy guys like Hartnett and Cochrane or guys who were good but not real HOM material (schalk, lombardi. kling). It is possible that Trouppe and Mackey are only backlog guys because as NeL players there is a lot of guess work involved in creating their records. Anyone have any idea why catcher might be like this?
maybe it's because we're under rating a catchers defensive importance
I think it's simple wear and tear.
3B is more of a conundrum.
Trivia: Since Hubbell left in 1943, the NL has been without an HOM pitcher. In that span, the AL has had Ruffing, Feller, Newhouser, Lemon, and Paige. Vance is the only other NL HOMer pitcher since 1929. The AL can add Lyons, Grove, and Faber to the mix if they go back that far.
NL HOMers
1939 (10) - Hartnett, Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter
1940 (11) - Hartnett*, Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1941 (11) - Hartnett*, Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1942 (10.7) - Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, Foxx*, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1943 (7) - Waner, Ott, Hubbell*, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick
1944 (5) - Waner*, Ott, Foxx*, Hack, Medwick
1945 (4) - Ott, Foxx, Hack, Medwick
1946 (7) - Ott*, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick*, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1947 (9) - Vaughan*, Greenberg, BiHerman*, Hack*, Medwick*, Mize, Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson
1948 (7) - Vaughan*, Medwick*, Mize, Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella
1949 (5.9) - Mize*, Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin*
1950 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1951 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1952 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin*
1953 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1954 (4) - Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1955 (4) - Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin*
1956 (4) - Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1957 (2) - Reese, Campanella
1958 (1) - Reese*
AL HOMers
1939 (15) - Simmons, Lyons, Grove, Foxx, Ruffing, Gehringer, Cronin, Dickey, Averill, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau*, TWilliams
1940 (16) - Simmons*, Lyons, Grove*, Foxx, Ruffing, Gehringer, Cronin, Dickey, Averill*, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser*
1941 (14) - Lyons, Grove*, Foxx, Ruffing, Gehringer, Cronin, Dickey, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser
1942 (10.7) - Lyons, Foxx*, Ruffing, Gehringer*, Cronin*, Dickey, Appling, DiMaggio, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser
1943 (6) - Simmons*, Cronin*, Dickey, Appling, Boudreau, Newhouser
1944 (3) - Cronin*, Boudreau, Newhouser
1945 (6) - Ruffing*, Appling*, Greenberg, Feller*, Boudreau, Newhouser
1946 (10) - Ruffing*, Dickey*, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon*
1947 (8.5) - Ruffing*, Appling, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby*
1948 (9) - Paige*, Appling, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1949 (9.1) - Paige*, Appling, DiMaggio*, Feller, Mize*, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1950 (9) - Appling*, DiMaggio, Feller, Mize, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1951 (9) - Paige*, DiMaggio, Feller, Mize, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser*, Lemon, Doby
1952 (6) - Paige, Feller, Mize*, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1953 (6) - Paige, Feller, Mize*, TWilliams*, Lemon, Doby
1954 (6) - Feller*, TWilliams, Newhouser*, Lemon, Doby, Slaughter*
1955 (5) - Feller*, TWilliams, Lemon, Doby, Slaughter
1956 (5) - Feller*, TWilliams, Lemon, Doby, Slaughter
1957 (4) - TWilliams, Lemon*, Doby, Slaughter*
1958 (4) - TWilliams, Lemon*, Doby, Slaughter*
1959 (2.8) - TWilliams, Doby*, Slaughter**
1960 (1) - TWilliams
Negro League HOMers
1939 (9) - JWilson, Stearnes, Suttles, Wells, Gibson, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella*, Irvin
1940 (8) - JWilson, Stearnes, Suttles, Gibson*, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella*, Irvin
1941 (7) - JWilson, Suttles, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella*, Irvin
1942 (8) - JWilson, Wells, Paige, Gibson, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella, Doby
1943 (6) - JWilson, Gibson, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Doby
1944 (5) - Gibson, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella
1945 (8) - JWilson*, Wells*, Gibson, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella, JRobinson
1946 (6) - Wells*, Gibson, Paige, Leonard, Campanella, Irvin, Doby*
1947 (4.5) - Wells*, Paige, Leonard, Irvin, Doby*
1948 (3) - Wells*, Leonard, Irvin
Spahn had a "cup of coffee" in 1942 and began his career for real in 1946. Roberts started in 1948. There's still a little gap, but we will fill in the 50's. We just have to wait for those two to become eligible.
1868-80 - 0 to 3
1881-88 - 4 to 5
1889--- - 6
1890-91 - 8
1892-93 - 5 to 6
1894-00 - 3 to 4
1901-03 - 5 to 6
1904-16 - 7 to 8 (9 in 1915)
1917----- 6
1918-20 - 3 to 5
1921-24 - 6 to 8
1925-32 - 10 to 11
1933-34 - 8 to 9
1935-42 - 6 to 7
1943-50 - 3 (4 in 1947)
Van Haltren would be 1887-88; 1890
Welch would be 1880-91
Griffith would be 1891; 1894-1906
Waddell would be 1900-09
Mendez would be 1908-14, very roughly
Redding would be 1911-30, very roughly
Rixey would be 1912-17; 1919-33
Grimes would be 1917-31
Walters would be 1936-45
These are the two peak years (8 Ps are on both lists):
1926 (11) - WJohnson Williams Alexander Faber Covaleski Rogan Vance Lyons Grove Ruffing BFoster
1929 (11) - Williams Faber Rogan Vance Lyons Grove Ruffing BFoster Paige Hubbell Ferrell
Howie,
How do you think Sutton's 1872 season should be counted? The club went out of business after playing 22 games and Sutton played only those 22 games. Teammate Scott Hastings completed the season in Baltimore, playing 22 + 13 = 35 games.
There are 13 elected HOMers on this list (in bold), not to mention some additional candidates. (The '*' means the candidate qualified for the runoff election, held because noone was elected in the initial vote.)
Kind of interesting to compare their vote with ours.
Columns were name, votes, percent.
1967 Lloyd Waner
1968 Kiki Cuyler
1970 Jesse Haines
1971 Chick Hafey
1972 Ross Youngs
1973 George Kelly
1974 Jim Bottomley
1976 Freddie Lindstrom
A sad time for the HOF.
Yeah. He got 50% more votes than Arky Vaughan. He must be great.
Then again, Marty Marion got almost twice as many as Arky. What were they thinking?
Here would be a typical BBWAA 1-15, ballot using only players that were eligible for our election.
1. Joe Medwick
2. Ralph Kiner
3. Al Lopez
4. Marty Marion
5. Johnny Vander Meer
6. Allie Reynolds
7. Phil Rizzuto
8. Joe Gordon
9. Bucky Walters
10. Mel Harder (when did he fall off the map?)
11. Ernie Lombardi
12. George Kell
13. Alvin Dark
14. Bobby Doerr
15. Bob Lemon
And for the 16-20
16. Hank Bauer
17. Bobo Newsom
18. Don Newcombe
19. Phil Cavarretta
20. Mickey Vernon
Of course, they didn't have perpetual eligibility or Negro Leaguers to vote for. But it is interesting to look at.
Obviously (I hope!), he must have been getting votes for his managerial work. Torre could get away with this because he was a terrific player in his own right, but didn't anybody make a stink over Lopez's support at the time? Unless his supporters actually thought his career as a catcher was more impressive than Herman, Hack, Doby, Newhouser, etc.?
That's for those who don't read the rest of Baseball Think Factory: It's a critique of Win Shares. I haven't had time yet to read it myself, alas.
IOW the mechanism distorts real "public opinion" to the degree that you get very very small samples determining the pecking order. Obviously you can't actually elect with that tiny little rump caucus, but you can determine the pecking order. Someday the VC will be making choices based on who got 5 percent and who didn't. So candidates can be given a death sentence or given the chance to live to fight another day by these tiny minorities, and at least among the Golden Age generation where the HoF got down deep into the backlog those tiny minorities proved to be vastly more influential than they had any right to be.
Of course the FoFF minorities are a different story, a different problem. But again, I would be afriad that someday players who managed to squeeze out 5 percent a few times will be given too much consideration as opposed to some who fell off the ballot right away.
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Mel Harder aside, this HOF-HOM disparity is most interesting to me, because the players were about equally in about the same spotlight.
*Joe Medwick 212 72.60
*Enos Slaughter 123 42.12
*Marty Marion 90 30.82
*Johnny Mize 89 30.48
Me, for one; in fact, I had no one from 2 to 10. As with you, Moore (and perhaps Brown or Childs) will change that for 1968, most likely. And Sisler will also creep up to my 15th slot, probably.
Ruffing was in his last year of BBWAA eligibility; Medwick, next to last.
There was plenty of time to elect Campanella.
Since 1956, the BBWAA had only elected:
1962 Feller
1962 Robinson (4 votes to spare)
1964 Appling (runoff)
1966 Williams (20 of 302 voters did not vote for him)
When their BBWAA eligibility had expired, the VC had immediately inducted Carey (1960), and the three R's (1962): Rice, Roush, and Rixey. All of these had gotten over 50% but not made the 75% level.
Maybe the BBWAA didn't want a repeat with Ruffing and Medwick.
When we started this, Joe said one of his criteria for possibly changing to a 20-person ballot would be consensus. If by consensus, he means a large supermajority, I don't think there is a consensus in favor of changing the official ballot. On the other hand, if it were put to a vote, there may or may not be a majority in favor. Next step?
I would also vote for 15, but mainly for tabulation purposes. I'm indifferent, otherwise.
I'll keep voting for 20+ becuase many of those guys will creep into the top 15 eventually as we burn through the backlog.
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