BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 1969 Results: Musial (Unanimously!) and Berra Get Their Hall of Merit Tickets Stamped!

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Monday, February 06, 2006

1969 Results: Musial (Unanimously!) and Berra Get Their Hall of Merit Tickets Stamped!

In his first year of eligibility, Cardinal legend Stan Musial became the ninth unanimous selection for the Hall of Merit.

Catching great Yogi Berra also had a robust showing in his first year on the ballot with 95% of all possible points.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Early Wynn (the first-year candidate now leads the backlog), Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith, George Van Haltren, Cool Papa Bell, Bobby Doerr, George Sisler, and Willard Brown.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Stan Musial             1152   48  48                                          
 2  n/e  Yogi Berra              1089   48     45  3                                    
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Early Wynn               469   35         6  1  5  5  4  2  2  1  1  1  4  3   
 4    3  Biz Mackey               338   29         2  1     3  4  1  5  4  2     1  3  3
 5    4  Clark Griffith           335   26         4  5  1  2  3     1  1  2        5  2
 6    5  George Van Haltren       313   24         3  4  4     1  2  1     1  3  4     1
 7    6  Cool Papa Bell           304   24         1  3  3  2  3  1  1  4  1     2  2  1
 8    8  Bobby Doerr              273   22         2  2  2  4  1  1     1  3     3  1  2
 9    7  George Sisler            266   22      1     2  3  1  1  1  2  4     1  2  2  2
10   10  Willard Brown            250   20         1  2  2  2  1  2  2  2  2  1  1  1  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   12  Cannonball Dick Redding  247   19         1  2  1  1  5  2  1  2  2     1     1
12    9  Jake Beckley             246   19      1  2  3  1  1  2     1        4  1  3   
13   19  Joe Gordon               217   20         1     1  1  1     2  5  3  3        3
14   14  Ralph Kiner              212   19               2  2  2  4  1     1  2        5
15   18  José Méndez              211   17         1  2     3  1  2     2  3     2     1
16   13  Hugh Duffy               206   16         2  2  1  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  2   
17   11  Dobie Moore              202   14         5     1  1  1  3  1     1           1
18   15  Joe Sewell               197   16            3  1     3  1  2     3     1  1  1
19   16  Cupid Childs             187   16         1     1  2  1  1     3  4  1  1     1
20   17  Pete Browning            181   14         2  2  2     1        1  3  1  1  1   
21   20  Alejandro Oms            172   12         1  4  1  1     1  1  1  1  1         
22   22  Rube Waddell             167   15               1  2  2     2  1     3  3  1   
23   21  Bucky Walters            167   14               2        4  3  2     2     1   
24   23  Mickey Welch             149   10         3  1     2     2  1     1            
25   25  Quincy Trouppe           135   12               1  1     3  2  1     2        2
26   27  Tommy Leach              130   12            2  1  1        1  1     1  1  1  3
27   24  Charley Jones            122    9         1  2        1  2     1  1  1         
28   29  Edd Roush                115    9         1        1  3  1  1           1  1   
29   28  Burleigh Grimes          112   10         1        2  1        1     2  1  1  1
30   30  Larry Doyle              109    9         1  1  2        1              2  1  1
31   26  Roger Bresnahan          104    9         2              1  1  1  1  1     1  1
32   31  Gavy Cravath              99    8      1        1     1     2        1     1  1
33   32  Bob Johnson               95   10                     1  2        1  2     3  1
34   33  Bob Elliott               94   10                     2        1  1  1  2  2  1
35   34  Wally Schang              78    7         1     1        1        1     1  1  1
36   35  Charlie Keller            61    5                  2     1  1                 1
37   37  John McGraw               58    4            1  1        1  1                  
38   43  Phil Rizzuto              42    4               1              1     1        1
39   41  Vic Willis                40    4                        1  1        1        1
40   38  Jimmy Ryan                39    4                  1                 1  1  1   
41   45  Ed Williamson             38    4                              1  1  1  1      
42   44  Fielder Jones             37    3               1           1        1         
43   42  Vern Stephens             36    3                  1        1        1         
44   40  Frank Chance              35    3               1                 1  1         
45   36  Tommy Bridges             33    4                              1        1  2   
46T  47  Bill Monroe               32    3               1                       2      
46T  48T Dizzy Trout               32    3                        1  1              1   
48   53  Luke Easter               31    2               1  1                           
49T  39  Dizzy Dean                29    3                           1        1  1      
49T  52  Addie Joss                29    3                           1  1              1
51   46  Sam Rice                  28    3                              1     1  1      
52   54  Pie Traynor               28    2               1           1                  
53   50  Carl Mays                 27    3                        1                 2   
54   48T Ben Taylor                27    2            1                    1            
55T  51  Ernie Lombardi            25    2            1                          1      
55T  57  Leroy Matlock             25    2            1                          1      
57   55  Chuck Klein               23    2                           1  1               
58  n/e  Gil Hodges                21    2                        1              1      
59   60  Dick Lundy                18    2                                 1     1      
60   58  Red Schoendienst          16    2                                 1           1
61T  62T Ed Cicotte                15    1                  1                           
61T  62T Johnny Pesky              15    1                  1                           
63   66  Tetelo Vargas             12    1                           1                  
64   65  Bobby Veach               11    1                              1               
65T  68T Artie Wilson              10    1                                 1            
65T  56  Fred Dunlap               10    1                                 1            
65T  68T Dutch Leonard             10    1                                 1            
68T  73T Tommy Bond                 9    1                                    1         
68T  61  Bus Clarkson               9    1                                    1         
68T  70T Sam Leever                 9    1                                    1         
68T  70T Bobo Newsom                9    1                                    1         
72   70T Rabbit Maranville          8    1                                       1      
73T  59  Dom DiMaggio               7    1                                          1   
73T  75T Hack Wilson                7    1                                          1   
73T  75T Virgil Trucks              7    1                                          1   
73T  73T Mickey Vernon              7    1                                          1   
77T n/e  Buzz Arlett                6    1                                             1
77T  64  Wilbur Cooper              6    1                                             1
77T  75T Lefty Gomez                6    1                                             1
77T  79  Spot Poles                 6    1                                             1
77T  75T Al Rosen                   6    1                                             1
77T  80T Johnny Sain                6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Wally Berger(80T), George J. Burns(80T), Joe Tinker(67).
Ballots Cast: 48

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 06, 2006 at 03:32 AM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2006 at 01:08 AM (#1852734)

Congrats to a couple of more than worthy candidates!

Nice to see Joe Gordon jump up in the rankings.

HOF-not-HOM through 1969

1  Bender, Chief
2  Bresnahan, Roger
3  Chance, Frank
4  Chesbro, Jack
5  Cuyler, Kiki
6  Dean, Dizzy
7  Duffy, Hugh
8  Evers, Johnny
9  Griffith, Clark 
10 Grimes, Burleigh
11 Hoyt, Waite
12 Manush, Heinie
13 Maranville, Rabbit
14 McCarthy, Tommy
15 McGraw, John 
16 Pennock, Herb
17 Rice, Sam
18 Roush, Edd
19 Schalk, Ray
20 Sisler, George
21 Tinker, Joe
22 Traynor, Pie
23 Waddell, Rube
24 Waner, Lloyd

And HOM not-HOF

1  Ashburn, Richie
2  Averill, Earl
3  Barnes, Ross
4  Bennett, Charlie
5  Berra, Yogi
6  Boudreau, Lou
7  Caruthers, Bob
8  Connor, Roger
9  Dahlen, Bill
10 Davis, George
11 Doby, Larry
12 Ferrell, Wes
13 Glasscock, Jack
14 Gore, George
15 Groh, Heinie
16 Hack, Stan
17 Herman, Billy
18 Hines, Paul
19 Kelley, Joe
20 Lemon, Bob
21 Magee, Sherry
22 McPhee, Bid
23 McVey, Cal
24 Mize, Johnny
25 Newhouser, Hal
26 Pearce, Dickey
27 Pike, Lip
28 Richardson, Hardy
29 Reese, Pee Wee
30 Rusie, Amos
31 Sheckard, Jimmy
32 Slaughter, Enos
33 Start, Joe
34 Stovey, Harry
35 Sutton, Ezra
36 Thompson, Sam
37 Vaughan, Arky
38 White, Deacon 

2. OCF Posted: February 07, 2006 at 01:29 AM (#1852767)

Consensus scores. As I said at the end of the ballot thread, average +1.9, best possible +13

DL from MN: +8
Howie Menckel:+7
Tom H: +7
Daryn: +7
Rusty Priske: +7
DanG: +7
...
caspian88: +5
...
OCF: +4
...
Patrick W: +2
Al Peterson: +2 (medians)
...
John Murphy: -1
...
Jim Sp: -4
Gadfly: -4
karlmagnus: -4
Kelly in SD: -4
yest: -5
Dolf Lucky: -6

Nothing too extreme anywhere.

As I also said, it is clear that Wynn will be elected. It is also clear to me that Robin Roberts is superior to Wynn - but Roberts won't be eligible until 1972. Wynn might still be on the ballot then, but might not. We might not even compare them.

3. jimd Posted: February 07, 2006 at 01:42 AM (#1852785)

And HOM not-HOF

Just pointing out to any newcomers that the above list does not include the following Negro Leaguers. The HOF will begin NeL inductions in 1971, so the following also have not been elected to the HOF (as of 1969).

1 John Beckwith
2 Ray Brown
3 Oscar Charleston
4 Martin Dihigo
5 Rube Foster
6 Willie Foster
7 Josh Gibson
8 Frank Grant
9 Pete Hill
10 Monte Irvin
11 Home Run Johnson
12 Buck Leonard
13 Pop Lloyd
14 Satchel Paige
15 Bullet Rogan
16 Louis Santop
17 Turkey Stearnes
18 Mule Suttles
19 Cristobal Torriente
20 Willie Wells
21 Smokey Joe Williams
22 Jud Wilson

4. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: February 07, 2006 at 01:57 AM (#1852803)

Here's this year's standings of voting points (for all players active in a given year). It's starting with 1888, the first year the total went above 1000.

High Year: 1946 (4730)
Low Year: 1909 (986)
High Year (pre Stan & Yogi): 1939 (2654)*
(*That's counting Wynn, if you don't, it would be 1924/25 (2420))

High Average: 1961-63 (549.4)
Low Average: 1934 (72.27), 1910 (72.35)
High Average (pre Stan & Yogi): 1895 (197.71)

5. Trevor P. Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:00 AM (#1852809)

John, in the balloting recap at the top of the thread, you forgot to include the resurrected Bobby Doerr, who seems to be holding his ground at number eight.

6. jimd Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:04 AM (#1852816)

In the trivia department, the following have been elected to the HOF before they were elected to the HOM.

The first group are the BBWAA selections. They all happen to have been elected before they formally instituted their 5 year waiting period. They were all also first-ballot HOMers, elected as soon as they met our eligibility requirements.

HOF HOM
'36 '41 Babe Ruth
'39 '44 Lou Gehrig
'47 '49 Carl Hubbell
'51 '52 Mel Ott
'55 '57 Joe DiMaggio

The second group are the Veteran's Committee selections that have made the HOM at a later date than their HOF election. Both were deep backloggers that waited a LONG time for HOM election.

HOF HOM
'45 '60 Hughie Jennings (53rd election)
'61 '68 Eppa Rixey (30th election)

7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:10 AM (#1852826)

John, in the balloting recap at the top of the thread, you forgot to include the resurrected Bobby Doerr, who seems to be holding his ground at number eight.

Sorry about that, Trevor. It's now corrected.

8. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:17 AM (#1852838)

I would also like to say that I am pleased that thsoe of us who pleaded with the electorate thate Joe Gordon was virtually the same player as Bobby Doerr (in terms of value) had some affect. However, I still can't help but feel that the gap between them is due to voters' differing beliefs on war credit.

9. jimd Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:47 AM (#1852872)

However, I still can't help but feel that the gap between them is due to voters' differing beliefs on war credit.

It also may reflect the WARP/WS debate. WARP sees both as legitimate stars, but Doerr as the better. WS sees both as marginal, but Gordon as better. Those who favor WS may have them both just off the ballot, Gordon above Doerr, while those who favor WARP may be voting for both, but Doerr above Gordon.

10. Howie Menckel Posted: February 07, 2006 at 04:47 AM (#1853009)

(These should now be accurate, assuming that Childs was indeed supposed to be a 'plus 78' from my previous total.)

All-time 'vote points totals' leaders, through 1969. Active for 1970 vote in CAPS

Griffith passes Jennings for 4th, and continues to narrow the gap on the three men ahead of him.... Browning passes the 15,000 pt milestone... Sisler becomes the 16th man to reach 10,000 points..

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 18494.5
BECKLEY 17563
DUFFY 17212.5
GRIFFITH 17157
Jennings 16976
BROWNING 15121.5
Pike 13399
CHILDS 13072
WADDELL 12956
WELCH 12652

Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
RYAN 11038.5
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
SISLER 10006
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
TLEACH 8573
BRESNAHAN 8563

Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
Pearce 8073
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(C Jones 7935, Sewell 7710, Mackey 6659, Redding 6568, Mendez 6262, Monroe 5691, Roush 5507, Doyle 5416, CP Bell 5511, Williamson 4722, Moore 4512, Cravath 4025, Grimes 3986)
ALMOST
(Schang 3789, McGraw 3689)

11. JC in DC Posted: February 07, 2006 at 04:52 AM (#1853010)

How does Yogi not go in unanimously? Isn't this kind of thing something usually mocked at this site when the grownup sportswriters do it?

12. caspian88 Posted: February 07, 2006 at 05:12 AM (#1853032)

It also may reflect the WARP/WS debate. WARP sees both as legitimate stars, but Doerr as the better. WS sees both as marginal, but Gordon as better. Those who favor WS may have them both just off the ballot, Gordon above Doerr, while those who favor WARP may be voting for both, but Doerr above Gordon.

Actually, I was using OPS+, RC, and the like and I found Doerr to be better.

13. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: February 07, 2006 at 05:17 AM (#1853037)

I am not arguing That Doerr isnt' better just that they are nearly indistinguishable and shouldnt' be more than a few spots apart. Which, now, they aren't. I did forget about the WARP fielding rating, however.

JC,

Um, I am not sure we have ever mocked sportswriters on this particular site seeing as how this isn't the newsblog, but I do find it a bit odd that Berra wasn't unanimous. But we have been over that with some of our voters already and it isnt' worth rehasing it. And what is a grownup sportswriter? Are there adolescent ones?

14. DanG Posted: February 07, 2006 at 05:38 AM (#1853054)

Isn't this kind of thing something usually mocked at this site when the grownup sportswriters do it?

Actually, no, it isn't. Because we really have no idea where the BBWAA voters rank players, they use a very different voting system. If we used their lame list-ten system, Berra is in with 100%.

I think if the HOF used a system like ours, they would also have players voted in with 100%, because the voters would be accountable for their decisions. They wouldn't be able to hide in anonymity, they would have to publicly justify why a Cal Ripken didn't get their vote. In time, the public outrage engendered by this sort of mischief would correct the system so that some great players would be named on every ballot.

15. Mike Webber Posted: February 07, 2006 at 01:44 PM (#1853240)

How does Yogi not go in unanimously? Isn't this kind of thing something usually mocked at this site when the grownup sportswriters do it?

Sorry DanG, I'm with JC on this one, this is EXACTLY the kind of kind we mock HOF voters for.

I'd think most of our voters would place Berra in the top 5 all time at catcher, and certainly in the top 10. There isn't another player on this ballot that has any arguement to be considered in the top five in his position all-time, and top ten is a stretch too.

16. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2006 at 01:52 PM (#1853244)

How does Yogi not go in unanimously? Isn't this kind of thing something usually mocked at this site when the grownup sportswriters do it?

The BBWAA waited until '72 to induct him. 'Nuff said. :-)

BTW, you meant unanimously in second-place, right?

17. sunnyday2 Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:17 PM (#1853259)

Mountain, meet mole hill.

A 45-3 preference for any player, with all 48 voters putting him top 3, is pert' near unanimous.

And if you look at the 3 players who got 2nd place votes, Sisler has a strong peak argument, Beckley a strong career argument, and Cravath a very strong hypothetical argument.

18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2006 at 02:58 PM (#1853295)

Mountain, meet mole hill.

I agree, Marc. As much as I disagree about placing Berra in the third spot, it's not comparable to totally leaving him off a ballot (as many members of the BBWWAA did).

19. ronw Posted: February 07, 2006 at 06:11 PM (#1853540)

I have an informal criteria for all-time greats. You must get 1000+ points when elected (closest not making it to that level - Goslin 998, Wheat 997.)

We had two all-time greats for the first time since 1962. (Feller, Robinson). The '60's elections have been extraordinarily short of greats, with only Feller, Robinson, Campanella, Williams, Musial and Berra crossing the threshold. By contrast, the '50s elections had 14 greats, the '40s 12, the '30s 10, and the '20s only 4. Before 1920, only Cy Young, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, and Dan Brouthers crossed the great level, in part because there weren't enough voters to break 1000 points (you need at least 42 unanimous 1st place votes to get there.)

Here is the list of greats, with the year of election:

Brouthers, Dan1902
Delahanty, Ed1909
Davis, George1915
Young, Cy1917
Lajoie, Nap1922
Mathewson, Christy1922
Wagner, Honus1923
Crawford, Sam1924
Santop, Louis1932
Johnson, Walter1933
Cobb, Ty1934
Speaker, Tris1934
Collins, Eddie1935
Lloyd, Pop1935
Williams, Joe1936
Alexander, Pete1936
Heilmann, Harry1937
Torriente, Cristobal1937
Ruth, Babe1941
Hornsby, Rogers1941
Charleston, Oscar1943
Cochrane, Mickey1943
Gehrig, Lou1944
Frisch, Frankie1944
Stearnes, Turkey1946
Simmons, Al1946
Grove, Lefty1947
Hartnett, Gabby1947
Gehringer, Charlie1948
Hubbell, Carl1949
Waner, Paul1950
Dihigo, Martin1950
Foxx, Jimmie1951
Cronin, Joe1951
Gibson, Josh1952
Ott, Mel1952
Dickey, Bill1953
Greenberg, Hank1953
Vaughan, Arky1954
Leonard, Buck1955
Appling, Luke1956
DiMaggio, Joe1957
Paige, Satchel1959
Mize, Johnny1959
Feller, Bob1962
Robinson, Jackie1962
Campanella, Roy1963
Williams, Ted1966
Musial, Stan1969
Berra, Yogi1969

20. jimd Posted: February 07, 2006 at 09:29 PM (#1853880)

The BBWAA waited until '72 to induct him. 'Nuff said. :-)

Yogi had some token appearances as a Met coach in 1965 under Stengel. Those reset his HOF clock so that he will not be eligible there until 1971. Also, at that time, the BBWAA was infatuated with the mystique of the "first-ballot HOFer" as an honor to be awarded to the "no-brainer" types such as Musial and Williams. Apparently Yogi did not quality to some, and so led the 1971 ballot with 67.2% of the vote, edging Early Wynn in an elect-nobody election. In contrast, the VC then selected a bumper crop of notables, Bancroft, Beckley, Hafey, Hooper, Kelley, and Marquard, plus executive George Weiss, to complement the first Negro Leagues Committee selection, Satchel Paige.

21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2006 at 10:21 PM (#1853948)

Yogi had some token appearances as a Met coach in 1965 under Stengel. Those reset his HOF clock so that he will not be eligible there until 1971.

I forgot about that, Jim.

Also, at that time, the BBWAA was infatuated with the mystique of the "first-ballot HOFer" as an honor to be awarded to the "no-brainer" types such as Musial and Williams. Apparently Yogi did not quality to some, and so led the 1971 ballot with 67.2% of the vote, edging Early Wynn in an elect-nobody election.

That's still just ludicrous.

22. jimd Posted: February 07, 2006 at 10:47 PM (#1853986)

That's still just ludicrous.

Well, if Yogi had put up Josh Gibson's stats, he might have caught their attention ;-)

23. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2006 at 10:49 PM (#1853991)

Well, if Yogi had put up Josh Gibson's stats, he might have caught their attention ;-)

heh

24. Rick A. Posted: February 08, 2006 at 01:47 AM (#1854202)

(These should now be accurate, assuming that Childs was indeed supposed to be a 'plus 78' from my previous total.)

Yes, Childs was +78

25. Mike Webber Posted: February 08, 2006 at 04:26 AM (#1854326)

I have an informal criteria for all-time greats. You must get 1000+ points when elected (closest not making it to that level - Goslin 998, Wheat 997.)

I think this is an excellent sort for "inner circle" HOMers.

interesting list Ron.

26. sunnyday2 Posted: February 08, 2006 at 04:32 AM (#1854334)

To my taste there are too many in the 1000 point club for it to be inner circle. I'd take half as many to be the inner circle to date.

27. jingoist Posted: February 08, 2006 at 09:02 AM (#1854419)

Agreed sunnyday2.
To my mind you'd have no more than 2 or 3 plaers per position; should be about 25 or 30 players long.
Sorry, but Luke Appling, Joe Cronin and Johnny Mize ain't in anybody's inner circle. Great players, yes; Inner Circle, no way.

28. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 08, 2006 at 04:34 PM (#1854674)

For inner circle it might be a better idea to use percentage of first and second place votes received, that way it's not influenced by the number of voters. I've only been around for a couple of elections so I don't know what the minimum percentage received should be.

29. DavidFoss Posted: February 08, 2006 at 04:44 PM (#1854692)

Yeah, as jingoist says there's a difference between a "no-doubt" guy and an "inner circle" guy.

30. Mongo Posted: February 08, 2006 at 06:01 PM (#1854793)

Fow what it's worth, here is the list of unanimous and near-unanimous first-place vote-getters, as of 1969:

UNANIMOUS FIRST-PLACE VOTE

Cy Young (1917) - 45
Honus Wagner (1923) - 48
Walter Johnson (1933) - 54
Babe Ruth (1941) - 53
Lou Gehrig (1944) - 52
Lefty Grove (1947) - 54
Joe DiMaggio (1957) - 47
Ted Williams (1966) - 48
Stan Musial (1969) - 48

UNANIMOUS MINUS ONE FIRST-PLACE VOTE

Jimmie Foxx (1951) - 48-0-1
Josh Gibson (1952) - 49-0-0-1

UNANIMOUS MINUS TWO FIRST-PLACE VOTES

Sam Crawford (1924) - 44-2
Kid Nichols (1911) - 40-1-1

UNANIMOUS MINUS THREE FIRST-PLACE VOTES

Dan Brouthers (1902) - 39-3
Ed Delahanty (1909) - 40-2-0-1
Oscar Charleston (1943) - 49-2-0-0-1
Roy Campanella (1963) - 46-0-2-0-1

UNANIMOUS MINUS FOUR FIRST-PLACE VOTES

Ty Cobb (1934) - 52-3-0-1

Bill

31. sunnyday2 Posted: February 08, 2006 at 06:38 PM (#1854831)

Good list. Obviously this overlooks a guy or two (from the class of '34) where unreal competition intervenes.

And I think many would agree that if any of these is not like the rest it might be Sam Crawford who benefitted from especially weak competition. Some might add Campy to the list.

32. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:03 PM (#1854872)

Joe DiMaggio - 100%
Lou Gehrig - 100%
Lefty Grove - 100%
Walter Johnson - 100%
Stan Musial - 100%
Babe Ruth - 100%
Honus Wagner - 100%
Ted Williams - 100%
Cy Young - 100%
Sam Crawford - 99.8%
Pete Alexander - 99%
Dan Brouthers - 99%
Oscar Charleston - 99%
Ty Cobb - 99%
Jimmie Foxx - 99%
Josh Gibson - 99%
Nap Lajoie - 99%
Roy Campanella - 98%
Eddie Collins - 98%
Ed Delahanty - 98%
Bob Feller - 98%
Charlie Gehringer - 98%
Kid Nichols - 98%
Arky Vaughan - 98%
Satchel Paige - 97%
Turkey Stearnes - 97%
Christy Mathewson - 96%
Yogi Berra - 95%
George Davis - 96%
Jesse Burkett - 95%
Rogers Hornsby - 95%
Carl Hubbell - 95%
Johnny Mize - 95%
Mel Ott - 95%
Paul Waner - 95%
Smokey Joe Williams - 95%

Paul Hines - 94%
Jim O'Rourke - 94%
Al Simmons - 94%
Deacon White - 94%
Roger Connor - 93%
Jackie Robinson - 93%
Luke Appling - 92%
Gabby Hartnett - 92%
John Henry Lloyd - 92%
Louis Santop - 92%
Bill Dickey - 91%
Harry Heilmann - 91%
John Clarkson - 90%
Buck Leonard - 90%
Hank Greenberg - 89%
Mickey Cochrane - 88%
Cristobal Torriente - 88%
Joe Cronin - 87%
Cap Anson - 85%

I would go with the guys with at least 95% as inner-circle guys (though there are one or two that I'm not that crazy about for that group). Anson should also be included, since he was punished by being left off a few ballots via the first-year character rule.

33. Mongo Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:10 PM (#1854883)

Here is a list of elections, where two players got all (or nearly all) the first and second place votes:

1922: Nap Lajoie 38-7, Christy Mathewson 7-39 (46 ballots)
1923: Honus Wagner 48, Sam Crawford 0-45 (48 ballots; only Wagner elected that year, Crawford elected 1924)
1936: Pete Alexander 43-7, Joe Williams 7-41 (50 ballots)
1941: Babe Ruth 53-0, Rogers Hornsby 0-53 (53 ballots)
1947: Lefty Grove 54-0, Gabby Hartnett 0-48 (54 ballots)
1952: Josh Gibson 49-0, Mel Ott 1-48 (50 ballots)
1959: Satchel Paige 38-7, Johnny Mize 7-37 (47 ballots)
1962: Bob Feller 31-17, Jackie Robinson 17-29 (49 ballots)
1969: Stan Musial 48-0, Yogi Berra 0-45 (48 ballots)

Bill

34. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:25 PM (#1854903)

And I think many would agree that if any of these is not like the rest it might be Sam Crawford who benefitted from especially weak competition. Some might add Campy to the list.

Crawford looks worse than he really was because he didn't get any second-place votes normaaly given since '23 was a one-inductee year. IOW, the contrast between '23 and '24 looks greater than it really was.

As for Campy, I definitely wouldn't add him to the list, IMO.

35. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:30 PM (#1854915)

1969: Stan Musial 48-0, Yogi Berra 0-45 (48 ballots)

Berra had the second highest percentage of votes for a second-place finisher, slightly behind Hornsby.

36. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:36 PM (#1854927)

Crawford looks worse than he really was because he didn't get any second-place votes normaaly given since '23 was a one-inductee year. IOW, the contrast between '23 and '24 looks greater than it really was.

With that said, I don't really think of Crawford as an (almost) unanimous inductee, either.

37. Daryn Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:36 PM (#1854929)

I'd put the inner circle cut off at 99%. We'll still end up with 25-30 guys (a full team or more) who make that cutoff. It is a little unfair in the 1934 type years, but thems the breaks.

38. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2006 at 07:40 PM (#1854936)

I'd put the inner circle cut off at 99%. We'll still end up with 25-30 guys (a full team or more) who make that cutoff. It is a little unfair in the 1934 type years, but thems the breaks.

You would also be knocking off guys like Hornsby, Berra, and Ott. It just doesn't work (not that my picking anyone with at least 95% is perfect, either).

39. sunnyday2 Posted: February 08, 2006 at 08:11 PM (#1854987)

99% seems fair with the competition caveat. The real question is how many ICs there really can logically be, before it's not an IC anymore. I figure 50 at most, all-time. 25 now.

40. Chris Cobb Posted: February 08, 2006 at 11:01 PM (#1855244)

Although the tracking of unanimous and near-unanimous selections for the HoM is interesting, I don't buy it as a sufficient criterion for identifying the members of an "inner circle" of the HoM. Since unanimous election tells us how a player was viewed in relation to other players who were eligible, and an "inner circle" ranking tells us how a player ranks in relation to other players who have been elected, the votes a player received simply won't reliably reveal inner-circle status.

41. jimd Posted: February 09, 2006 at 03:19 AM (#1855610)

Tris Speaker got into a three-way steel-cage death-match with Eddie Collins and Pop Lloyd in 1934. The winner of that dogfight received what is essentially an all-time median score (82%) in the percentage system listed by John Murphy, while the losers went on in the next election to supposed "inner-circle" status.

The point of course is that these are interesting junk stats until someone comes up with a way of adjusting for "election quality" ;-)

42. yest Posted: February 12, 2006 at 03:50 AM (#1859099)

A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , Clark Griffith , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Yogi Berra Early Wynn Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr , Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith

43. OCF Posted: February 12, 2006 at 06:34 PM (#1859362)

Tris Speaker got into a three-way steel-cage death-match with Eddie Collins and Pop Lloyd in 1934.

Indeed. I'm one of the voters who had Collins ahead of Speaker, and Smokey Joe Williams ahead of Lloyd. I didn't do that to sneer at the credentials of Speaker or Lloyd.

44. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 13, 2006 at 12:59 PM (#1859859)

The winner of that dogfight received what is essentially an all-time median score (82%) in the percentage system listed by John Murphy, while the losers went on in the next election to supposed "inner-circle" status.

Supposed inner-circle status?!

Like OCF, I had Collins above Speaker, but I don't think the Grey Eagle is outside the circle because of that. When you have a year with four monumental HoMers, someone had to lose.

45. sunnyday2 Posted: February 13, 2006 at 01:28 PM (#1859864)

http://www.netshrine.com/tris_speaker_book.html

See also Primer Newsblog this a.m.

Whether Speaker is top 10 all-time (as is claimed in the book) or maybe top 12, top 15, top 20 is splitting hairs. Inner circle all the way.

46. kthejoker Posted: February 13, 2006 at 02:34 PM (#1859900)

I think it's pretty clear that to use the term "inner circle" without a great deal of flippance would mean you would have to look at the dataset as a whole - using the HOM voting totals is clearly inappropriate, as inner circle of the HOM can only be determined once the HOM itself has been determined, and no sooner.

Or, to create a paradox, the inner circle of the HOM must be determined before any of the HOM is determined, and no later.

We can all agree that Babe Ruth was inner circle HOM before the HOM idea gestated, and we can agree that Babe Ruth is inner circle at the end, but his election into the HOM itself had no bearing on his status as inner circle.

Also, positional quotas on the idea of an "inner circle" is pretty dumb. If the #10 centerfielder is inner circle, that doesn't mean the #10 catcher is inner circle. It's simply not a statistically sound notion to think that in the 130 years or so of major league baseball every position has seen an equal number of the best players in history.

47. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 13, 2006 at 03:45 PM (#1859994)

Whether Speaker is top 10 all-time (as is claimed in the book) or maybe top 12, top 15, top 20 is splitting hairs. Inner circle all the way.

That shouldn't really be debateable, as it shouldn't be for Collins or Lloyd, IMO.

I think it's pretty clear that to use the term "inner circle" without a great deal of flippance would mean you would have to look at the dataset as a whole - using the HOM voting totals is clearly inappropriate, as inner circle of the HOM can only be determined once the HOM itself has been determined, and no sooner.

I agree when it comes to the borderline inner-circle guys, but the guys that everybody can make a serious claim as the greatest at their positions don't need to wait for the project to end.

48. jingoist Posted: February 13, 2006 at 04:56 PM (#1860091)

Grandma Murphy.

I believe the phrase you're looking for is: "Intuitively Obviouse to the Most Casual Observer".

No-brainers are just that; guys on the cusp of "Inner-Circledom" are the fellows that will require additional debating.
How MoM voters vote for a particular candidate and the point total that that candidate receives in any given year versus a designated threshold should never be the criteria for acheiving inner circle status.

49. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 13, 2006 at 07:13 PM (#1860308)

How MoM voters vote for a particular candidate and the point total that that candidate receives in any given year versus a designated threshold should never be the criteria for acheiving inner circle status.

I agree, jingoist. Even though I compiled the list above, I admitted that it had problems.

50. yest Posted: February 13, 2006 at 08:07 PM (#1860417)

John Berra dosn't belong on the hom not hof list yett (weight till 1971 to bash them for their stupidty) due to the token apperance rule

51. DavidFoss Posted: February 13, 2006 at 08:57 PM (#1860492)

Eh, maybe just give him an asterisk like DanG does. My amazing psychic power (or if you prefer, post #42) is telling me the HOF will come around for Yogi -- along with 16 other MLB members of the HOM-not-HOF list and all the HOM-NeL-ers join the list then as well.

52. jimd Posted: February 14, 2006 at 12:42 AM (#1860811)

I think my Tris Speaker steel-cage comment was misconstrued. I was in no way saying that Speaker wasn't inner-circle (he's one of my favorite players). I was pointing out that any election rating system that can't capture that isn't worth looking at. The percentage system posted by JM has Speaker around the middle (82% of the potential vote). The 1000 point system only "works" due to an alltime high in HOM ballots cast; 50 voters or less and Tris don't make it.

53. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 14, 2006 at 02:15 AM (#1860875)

jimd:

I knew you weren't beating up Speaker. I thought you were beating up Collins and Lloyd (which I think you were a little :-)

As for Speaker, if I had seen (and remembered) his percentage from '34, I wouldn't have even bothered with the list. It's one thing if a couple of borderline guys are "given" inner-circle status, but it's another thing when an obvious no-brainer is on the outside looking in.

54. jimd Posted: February 14, 2006 at 02:20 AM (#1860881)

while the losers went on in the next election to supposed "inner-circle" status.

I thought you were beating up Collins and Lloyd (which I think you were a little :-)

Unintentional, I assure you. But rereading, I can see that interpretation.

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Monday, February 06, 2006

1969 Results: Musial (Unanimously!) and Berra Get Their Hall of Merit Tickets Stamped!

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