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Monday, February 13, 2006

1970 Ballot

Newbies: Duke Snider, Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Pete Runnels, Bill Bruton, and Luis Marquez

Returnees: Early Wynn, Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith , George Van Haltren, Cool Papa Bell, Bobby Doerr, George Sisler, and Willard Brown.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 13, 2006 at 01:00 PM | 111 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Chris Cobb Posted: February 20, 2006 at 03:24 PM (#1869233)
1970 Ballot

I’m working on a major review of the cross-period comparisons in my system, especially of pitchers. I don’t know whether there will be major changes yet or not, but as the changes are not finished, I have an abbreviated ballot for 1970.

1. Duke Snider. Best position-player peak among eligibles combined with good career value gets him the top spot.
2. Early Wynn. Great career value, respectable peak.
3. Clark Griffith. Consistently above average, but has neither huge career nor huge peak.
4. Alejandro Oms. Did everything well for a long time.
5. Biz Mackey. Underrated by MLEs as his prime is truncated by the 1930s contraction.
6. Willard Brown. I have him a hair below Oms both offensively and defensively, but new walk data from Gadfly may change that.
7. Joe Gordon. Bests Doerr on peak, but both should be HoMers.
8. Dick Redding. Hard to get a clear sense of how good his peak was, but his career is #4 among NeL pitchers after Paige, Williams, and Ray Brown.
9. Jose Mendez. Best pitching peak on the board, and his comeback play in the 1920s gives him enough career value for election, as I see it.
10. Burleigh Grimes. His mix of good and bad seasons is peculiar, but he had a lot of good years.
11. Minnie Minoso. A lot like Ashburn and Oms in that he had a long, strong, consistent prime without having a really outstanding peak (Van Haltren is also in this category, but his performance level was slightly lower than theirs). That, and WARP’s lukewarm view of him are keeping him down, but I’ll take his lasting, well-rounded game over the sluggers just below.
12. Edd Roush. At his best, a very high impact player, but his ranking is hurt because he missed a lot of games. Could flip with Minoso next year.
13. Gavvy Cravath. Extraordinary hitter, but weak fielding and weak competition keep him down.
14. George Sisler. A glorious player during his peak, but sadly diminished after his sinus troubles.
15. Ralph Kiner. Great peak versus strong competition.

Consensus top-10 returning players not on my ballot.

16. Bobby Doerr. Pushed off this year by Snider and Minoso, but he’ll be back. Weak peak keeps him fairly low in my rankings, but I think he should be elected.

21. George Van Haltren. Fine prime, but peak performance never approached MVP level of play. Right on my all-tin/out line, I think.

30. Cool Papa Bell. Like the other top ten players not on my ballot, Bell never had a strong peak, as far as I can tell so far.

49. Jake Beckley. Almost no peak at all to speak of.

New arrivals of note who are not on ballot:

17. Billy Pierce. Just misses my ballot on his first try. Above my in/out line, but is too short on peak value to make my ballot just now. I hope we’ll eventually elect him,

Off ballot, in brief

16-25. Doerr, Pierce, Newsom, Arlett, Waddell, Van Haltren, Leach, Welch, Walters, Byrd.
26-35. Maranville, Bond, C. Jones, Bresnahan, CP Bell, Childs, Newcombe, Matlock, Doyle, Poles.
36-45. Elliott, Mays, Shocker, B. Clarkson, M. Williams, B. Johnson, Ryan, Schang, Trouppe, Scales.
46-55. D. Moore, Keller, B. Taylor, Beckley, D. Dimaggio, J. Sewell, Lundy, Duffy, Harder, Hoyt.
56-65. H. Long, Wi. Cooper, Pesky, Cross, York, Cuyler, Hooper, Vernon, Veach, F. Jones.
66-75. Luque, McGraw, Williamson, Rizzuto, Stephens, McCormick, GJ Burns, Fournier, Petway, Monroe.
76-85. Dean, Adams, Tiernan, Browning, Rice, Bancroft, Chance, Day, Mullane, H. Smith.
   102. Mike Webber Posted: February 20, 2006 at 03:43 PM (#1869251)
Win Shares voter, with peak bonus, and less imaginary ML credit than many.

1) DUKE SNIDER – easy #1 for me this week.
2) EDD ROUSH – Compared to Ashburn, more career value, better peak value. Those two are very close to me.
3) TOMMY LEACH – 300+ wins shares, big peak, excellent defensive player.
4) RALPH KINER – Despite a shorter career than most of my top 15, Kiner’s peak moves him up the ballot.
5) BOBBY DOERR – lacks outstanding peak, but keeps sliding up my ballot.
6) CARL MAYS – I think his strong peak moves him ahead of Ruffing and Rixey, but just barely.
7) PIE TRAYNOR – I’d rank the Pirate third basemen this way, Leach, Traynor, Bonilla, Elliott, Hebner, Madlock, Hoak.
8)JOE GORDON 5 times in top 10 of MVP voting, in the all-star game every year from 1939 to 1949 except his two war seasons.
9) GEORGE VAN HALTREN – Too many win shares to ignore,I bumped him further down my ballot to in relation to my penalty for 19th century pitching win shares. I realized I was not (may still not be) docking his impressive career totals.
10) ROGER BRESNAHAN – best catcher not in, Roger and Schang are both ahead of Mackey IMO.
11) EARLY WYNN –I’m comfortable placing him ahead of Griffith and Wills, so I will slot him in here.
12) BILLY PIERCE – Need to read his thread again, but here for now.
13) COOL PAPA BELL – Long career, great anecdotal evidence.
14) JOE SEWELL – Has as good an argument for induction as most others on this list.
15) MINNIE MINOSO – Conservative 1st week on ballot placement.
16-30 Doyle, Sisler, Berger, Willis, Dean, Elliot, Lazzeri, Rizzuto, Rosen, H Wilson, Duffy, Schang, Stephens, Moore, Lombardi, Griffith and Vernon

Disclosures – Mackey – I see him behind Bresnahan and Schang and Lombardi, Griffith – about 30.
Willard Brown – details too sketchy to for me.
Jake Beckley – first basemen definitely better than Beckley include George Sisler and Mickey Vernon. First basemen probably better than Beckley include Frank Chance and Gil Hodges. First basemen about the same as Beckley include Camilli, Fournier, Bottomley, and Konetchy.

Newbies – none
   103. Trevor P. Posted: February 20, 2006 at 04:03 PM (#1869266)
Thanks, Brent. I'll recheck Bell's thread for the 1971 ballot.
   104. Jim Sp Posted: February 20, 2006 at 05:43 PM (#1869362)
Snider #1. Minoso would be #30 with no NNL credit. Pierce #30. Runnels interesting but not close.

1)Snider--Easy #1, top 100 all time.
2)Gordon--Fixed my war credit, he and Doerr moved up. PHoM in 1958.
3)Doerr-- PHoM in 1958.
4)Sewell--109 OPS+, reasonably long career, good shortstop (A- Win Shares). Yes, I am allowing for his switch to 3B at the end of his career. PHoM in 1939.
5)Stephens-- PHoM in 1961. Looks underrated to me.
6)Elliott--I like him better than Hack. Second greatest 3B to date, after Baker. PHoM in 1960.
7)Schang--His rate stats would put him in the HoM, but a look at each individual year isn’t impressive. Still, a hitting catcher with his career length isn’t common...Bill James rates him a C+ fielder in Win Shares, but says he was a good catcher in the NHBA. PHoM in 1938.
8)Mackey--#2 on my 1949 prelim, but more data on his hitting has dropped him to here. PHoM in 1964.
9)Cool Papa Bell--If Max Carey is in, Cool Papa should be too. PHoM in 1966.
10)Schoendienst--PHoM in 1968. In case you’re wondering, the modern (retired) 2Bs that I’m planning to take are Morgan, Grich, Alomar, Whitaker, Sandberg, Randolph, and Fox. The modern SSs would be Ripken, Larkin, Trammell, Ozzie, and Concepcion. I’ll have to think about Tony Fernandez and Fregosi . (Yount, Banks, Rose, Carew, etc. I count as multiposition).
11)Bob Johnson--A very underrated player. Usually I'm a WS guy but this time I think Warp has it right.
12)Doyle— His hitting is legitimately outstanding, he played 2nd base, and a C+ defender by Win Shares. 126 career OPS+, compare to contemporary George Cutshaw, who was a regular 2B for 11 years with an OPS+ of 86. #19 all time in innings at 2B. Regularly in the 2B defensive Win Shares leaders, WS Gold Glove in 1917. Top 10 in Win Shares 1909-12, 1915. PHoM in 1926.
13)Minoso--I gave full ML credit for two+ years. 44 Win Shares to be precise, half of the MLEs.
14)Tommy Bridges—fixed his war credit
15)Rizzuto--Lots of war credit.
16)Beckley— Behind the big 3, much better than other dead-ball 1B. Win Shares best fielder at 1B in 1893, 1895, 1899, and 1900. Add in 2930 hits, with power and walks. No peak but a lot of consistent production, we’re not talking about Ed Kranepool here. PHoM in 1913.
17)Waddell—Waddell has a run of 7 years (1902-1908) in which he was blowing people away, in three of those years with an ERA+ over 165. A seven year peak for a pitcher is much more rare than a seven year peak for a hitter, I give the short peak pitchers a lot more credit than the short peak hitters. PHoM in 1916.
18)Lombardi-- A long career as a catcher with a big bat. I see 15 obvious catching electees: Gibson, Bench, Fisk, Carter, Hartnett, Dickey, Piazza, Berra, Simmons, Ewing, Cochrane, Campanella, Parrish, Rodriguez, Santop. I’m an advocate for what I see as the next tier: Freehan, Munson, and Porter will get strong consideration on my ballot too. You can’t have a baseball team without a catcher. Almost 2000 games caught including PCL.

Early Wynn--#64, with credit for hitting and war. A 106 ERA+ just isn’t enough no matter how long he pitched.
Griffith#27, in my PHoM since 1912.
Van Haltren--#75, good player, part of the old OF glut with Ryan and Duffy.
Sisler--#84, I don’t see his case being very strong. His peak was not long enough to merit election, though he certainly was a great hitter for a few years.
Willard Brown--Not convinced.
   105. OCF Posted: February 20, 2006 at 08:12 PM (#1869588)
I usually vote very early. This week, I'm voting late, for two reasons. One: it was an insane week for me. Two: I really wasn't sure - still not sure - what exactly to do with either Pierce or Minoso.

1970 ballot.

1. Duke Snider (new) Not inner circle. Only a little better then some of the others on this ballot. But better, and that's all that counts.
2. Larry Doyle (4, 3, 2, 1, 1) Big hitter in low scoring times - nearly as good a hitter as the backlog outfielders. Mediocre defense, but occupied the position for a long time. And no, I don't try to understand WARP.
3. George Van Haltren (5, 5, 3, 2, 4) He did accomplish quite a bit in his career.
4. Billy Pierce (new) See his thread for more. Better than Lemon. I like him better than Wynn. One thing to note: he had significant relief usage throughout his career (the old Grove/Johnson/3F Brown pattern), presumably at high leverage.
5. Ralph Kiner (8, 7, 5, 4, 5) His career may not have lasted very long, but during it he played every day and he hit a LOT of home runs.
6. Early Wynn (----. 6) A very long career; had his good years and his bad years. Clearly behind his near-contemporary Roberts, but arguably comparable to the just-elected Rixey.
7. Joe Sewell (9, 8, 6, 5, 7) If only he'd had 2 or 3 more good years - then he'd be an easy choice.
8. Quincy Trouppe (9, 9, 7, 6, 8) As with all Negro Leaguers, a lot of this is guesswork.
9. Biz Mackey (11, 10, 8, 7, 9) Catcher is a tough position, and catchers do tend to grow old early. Even Berra didn't have quite the hitting career needed for election as a corner player.
10. Jose Mendez (12, 11, 9, 8, 10) A peak-value pitching candidate.
11. Dick Redding (13, 12, 10, 9, 11) A career-value pitching candidate.
12. Jake Beckley (14, 13, 11, 10, 12) Not much peak, long career. Was he really better than Vernon? Maybe defense, maybe a position-scarcity argument. Offensively, I don't see it.
13. Orestes Minoso (new) I'm still not really sure where to put him.
14. Bob Elliott (17, 15, 13, 11, 13) Roughly the equivalent of Dixie Walker as a hitter, plus 1300+ games of pretty good 3B.
15. Mickey Vernon (16, 16, 14, 12, 14) Another loooong career 1st baseman, searching for a peak.

16. Willard Brown (17, 15, 15, 13, 15) If he really could hit for that batting average, he's Kirby Puckett. If not, he's Juan Gonzalez. Worth a look in any case.
17. Hugh Duffy (19, 18, 16, 15, 16)
18. Bucky Walters (20, 19, 17, 16, 17) Offense-adjusted RA+ PythPat 197-148, with a peak that nearly rivals Ferrell's. We elected Lemon - why not Walters?
19. Phil Rizzuto (21, 20, 18, 17, 18) A glove-first SS candidate. Not a great offensive player, but at least useful on offense in an OBP-first shape, with good baserunning. But even with war credit, his career's not particularly long.
20. Cupid Childs (22, 21, 19, 18, 19) Like a lot of people, his career is too short. Not the offensive peak of Doyle, but it is a real peak.

21. Joe Gordon (23, 22, 20, 19, 20) Not much to choose from between him and Billy Herman.
22. Tommy Bridges (24, 23, 21, 20, 21) RA+ PythPat 190-124. Ferrell had a higher peak, but Bridges was a terrific pitcher.
23. Cool Papa Bell (25, 24, 22, 21, 22) A legend, of course, with a very long career. He's down here because I'm not sure his peak is any better than Willie Wilson's.
24. Edd Roush (26, 25, 23, 22, 23) Nearly the same offensive value as the leftover 1890's guys; better hitter than Carey.
25. George Sisler (27, 26, 24, 23, 24) My peak-heavy offensive evaluation system likes Chance ahead of Sisler, and Sisler ahead of Beckley. The order gets reversed because of playing time.
26. Vern Stephens (28, 27, 25, 24, 25)
27. Bobby Doerr (29, 28, 26, 25, 26)
28. Dobie Moore (30, 29, 27, 26, 27) Short career, high peak.
29. Bob Johnson (-, 30, 28, 27, 28)
30. Frank Chance (--, 29, 28, 29) A great, great player - when he was in the lineup, which is the problem.

Clark Griffith: going by RA+ and IP, I have trouble putting him ahead of Vic Willis.
Don Newcombe: I'll take another look at him for next year.
   106. EricC Posted: February 20, 2006 at 10:28 PM (#1869722)
1970 ballot.

1. Duke Snider - Better than Ashburn, though I think both of them were HoM quality.
2. Wally Schang - Long consistent career with very good bat in the 1910s-1920s AL, in an era when catchers did not catch as many games year in and year out as later.
3. Joe Sewell - Best ML SS of the 1920s.
4. Joe Gordon
5. Bobby Doerr
WWII credit for both, discount for war years, especially 1944. So close that there's no easily identifiable factor why Gordon ends up higher.
6. Early Wynn - In relative terms, out-Ruffings Ruffing as a pitcher with a big career in spite of a low average ERA+.
7. Gil Hodges - For strength of the 1950s NL and for being the best or among the best 1B throughout his prime.
8. Charlie Keller - Win Shares peak overcomes short career; WWII credit. A good test case for examining whether WS unfairly benefits players on good teams.
9. Cool Papa Bell - Long career, low peak, perhaps like Sam Rice with the bat, but with outstanding speed.
10. Jose Mendez - Evidence of a HoM worthy peak; perhaps somewhat comparable to Lefty Gomez.
11. Billy Pierce - A reevaluation of pitcher ratings is overdue. I am rating
the more recent pitchers a little too high and the oldtimers a little too low.
12. Sam Rice - WWI credit gets him to around 3180 career hits in spite of not playing until age 25 and not being a regular until age 27.
13. Tommy Bridges - 2nd-most runs saved above average of all pitchers eligible for Cooperstown, behind Blyleven. A career that's underappreciated because of relatively low numbers of IP per season in his later years.
14. Biz Mackey - One of the greatest NeL catchers.
15. Red Schoendienst - A little below PHoM cutoff, actually, but among the top 2B in the 40-year span between Gehringer and Morgan. Will have Fox slightly higher.

16. Orestes Minoso.- One of the really tough cases. At least a 30 percent chance of having been denied a HoM career, but it is more than 50% probable, IMO, that he was just a late bloomer. So close to the boundary that his election to the HoM or HoF would not be a mistake. Many similarities to Doby.

Griffith, Van Haltren, and Beckley are the best unelected 1890s P, OF, and IF.
Sisler was a good player, but because of his injury, his prime wasn't quite
long/strong enough for me.
Willard Brown was one of the top NeL hitters of the 1940s. I look forward to the coming NeL statistical encyclopedia to see whether I may be underrating him.
   107. OCF Posted: February 20, 2006 at 10:45 PM (#1869732)
With that, 47 votes. Joe Dimino will make 48, and he'll probably be the last voter. The results will not be close.
   108. Max Parkinson Posted: February 20, 2006 at 11:36 PM (#1869775)
It’s been a couple of elections, but here goes. Sorry to surprise OCF.

1970 ballot: (MP HoMers in bold, this year’s inductees are Snider and Stan Hack)

1. Dick Redding

One of the 4 MP HoM but not HoM pitchers in my consideration list (Waddell and Griffith had fallen off my ballot, but they’ve risen from the dead this month), and I’m convinced that he had the best career of all of them.

2. Duke Snider

Willie and Mickey will see you soon enough…

3. Pete Browning

I am now convinced that he would have been one of (if not THE) the best hitters in the ‘80s even if there was only one league. I have therefore minimized his AA penalty.

4. Jose Mendez

I’ve reconsidered him – he had been in the twenties before. A truly great peak pitcher.

5. Dobie Moore

Incredible Peak.

6. George Sisler

George’s case was made in from ’17 to ‘22 – anything he did afterwards adds or subtracts little.

7. Charley Jones

I’ve been giving him credit for his “lost” years due to blacklisting, and he vaults up the list.

8. Gavvy Cravath

Another adjustment. Was the best RF in the game for a good 6 year stretch, with MVP-calibre seasons thrown in. I have resisted adding too much credit for MiL performance, but I couldn’t keep him from the ballot any longer.

9. Cool Papa Bell

He’s on the ballot, while Walters falls off. Huh.

10. Rube Waddell

Welcome back to the ballot. Love me those punches, Rube.

11. John McGraw

Went PHoM a couple of years ago.

12. Joe Sewell
13. George Burns

I have lessened my 1910-mid 20s AL-NL penalty. Burns is helped.

14. Biz Mackey
15. Clark Griffith

16. Dizzy Dean
17. Ned Williamson
18. Bobby Veach
19. Willard Brown
20. Tony Lazzeri

Previous Top 10s and two newbies:

Early Wynn is 53, and Billy Pierce is 51. I’ve adjusted my pitching rankings recently, as I felt I was giving to much credit for just showing up. Guys like Rixey, Newsom and even Dickson were creeping towards my ballot. Wynn would have been top 5. Adjust towards the peak guys, and Waddell jumps back on, and Dean is 16th. Wynn is hurt.

Bobby Doerr is 26. Close to the ballot, but not breaking away from Monroe or Childs. Note that I don’t give war credit.

Minoso is 27. Maybe I’m a little conservative, but I don’t think so.

GVH is not my kind of hitter (decent prime but not a great peak). He’s in the 90-100 range.
   109. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: February 21, 2006 at 12:18 AM (#1869834)
Sorry it's late . . .

1. Duke Snider CF (n/e) - He's a lot closer to Wynn than I would have thought. Wynn actually has more WARP1 and WARP3. The career value is close (due to Snider's only have 9 years over 500 PA), but Snider had an incredible peak. He was as good a hitter as Kiner, but their peaks are similar because of Snider's D. Snider's extra 6 years as a platoon player push him to first.
2. Early Wynn SP (3) - Take Bob Lemon or Stan Coveleski, and tack on 1500-2000 innings as an innings eater. That's a HoMer to me.
3. Jake Beckley 1B (4) - A smidge below Rafael Palmeiro, they were basically the same player, though Palmeiro was a little bit better with the stick, 1B was much tougher in Beckley's day.
4. Gavy Cravath RF (5) - Too much to ignore. Either he was a freak of nature, or there's a lot missing. I vote for the latter. Check out his thread for deeper discussion of the specifics, including a great analysis from Gadfly. He's the kind of guy we were hoping to catch when we started this project.
5. Luke Easter 1B (6) - I realize there is a lot of projecting going on here, but I think this is fair, as those ahead of him could reasonably be ranked ahead of Easter even with the extensive projections. I see him as extremely similar to Cravath, and he really did mash from 1937-54.
6. Billy Pierce SP (n/e) - What's not to like. Prospectus has him translated at 243-144 (and he had 32 saves). He played for good teams, and behind good defenses, but he also faced the toughest opposition as was custom for an ace in his era. A forgotten star historically. I could see Mike Mussina ending up like Pierce historically.
7. Ralph Kiner LF (7) - Was Harmon Killebrew a Hall of Famer through 1968? Reggie through 1978? How about Albert Belle? All are comparable to Kiner, the Albert Belle of the late 1940s and early 1950s. I'm not normally a peak guy, but his peak is astronomical. I'm not convinced his D was as bad as some say either. His defensive WS numbers aren't terrible.
8. Charley Jones LF (8) - The Albert Belle/Ralph Kiner of the early NL - can you tell I like this type of player?
9. Bucky Walters SP (9) - I was underrating him. According to RSI he pitched against amazingly tough competition, and pitched well against it. He was a great hitter (for a pitcher) too, which further understates his record. His record is similar to Ferrell's (201-157 vs. 190-131), longer career though not quite the quality - on the surface. Ferrell was a better hitter, but he doesn't get nearly the edge that he does over other pitchers. And when you throw in a MOWP of .526 vs. .497, it makes a close call.
10. Phil Rizzuto SS (10) - War credit has him right about 300 WS and 95 WARP, great defensive SS and hurt by his park enormously.
11. Clark Griffith SP (11) - What exactly is it that separates McGinnity or Three-Finger Brown from Griffith?
12. George Van Haltren CF (12) - He could rank anywhere from 1 to 22, very tough to evaluate.
13. Cool Papa Bell CF (13) - Awful lot of career value there. Gets a bump this week. I think I had him a little low, given the potential for error in rating Negro Leaguers based on translations, I'm erring a little more on the side of reputation.
14. Virgil Trucks SP (14) - Hidden gem here, I didn't even notice it until I threw his numbers in my spreadsheet. I give him two full years of war credit for 1944-45, at an average of his 1942-43-46 level (after adjusting 1943 down a smidge for the war). He had some peak (I have him between Ruffing and Plank on my 'peak' score, would have won the 1953 AL Cy Young if it existed) and there's a lot of career value here. I overrated him just a little last time, Lemon and Walters have significantly higher peak with similar career value.
15. Tommy Leach 3B/CF (15) - It is so easy to underrate the guys that do everything well and nothing spectacularly.
   110. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: February 21, 2006 at 12:18 AM (#1869835)
Honorable Mention:

16. Joe Gordon 2B (18) - Lost two prime years, was cranking out 9-11 WARP1 seasons annually (1939-43) before military service.
17. Minnie Minoso LF (n/e) - Still not sure what to make of his extra credit. I can't see him being lower than this. Career track somewhat similar to Will Clark. Great player from the start of his career, very good player for the rest, and career ends rather early.
18. Vern Stephens SS (16) - I love shortstops that can hit like outfielders and play above average defense, call me crazy :-) Better than Doerr IMO.
19. Bobby Doerr 2B (19) - Too close to call w/Gordon right now.
20. Dutch Leonard SP (17) - Pretty underrated when you look at his W-L record. Prospectus loves him, and Win Shares likes him a lot. A ton of career value and the 4th most saves of any pitcher in my consideration set. Bumping him further this week.
21. Dobie Moore SS (20) - Great peak, short career, even with military team credit. But I've been convinced that he played enough (the level of play was never in quesiton) that I should move him way up compared with where I had him. This is similar to where I've put Hughie Jennings in the past.
22. Bill Monroe 2B (21) - Been on my ballot forever, haven't been convinced that this is a mistake.
23. Ernie Lombardi C (22) - I was convinced that his OPS+ overstates his offense due to the DPs, and his lack of peak somewhat dilutes the impact. However, I was looking over the DMB all-time disk, and they gave him a fair range rating (not poor), and also a very good arm. Are the reports of his awful defense greatly exagerrated? Are 1500 games at C and a 125 career OPS+ more common than I realize? I'm still a big fan.
24. Biz Mackey C (23) - After further review he appears to be closer to Schang/Bresnahan than Cochrane on the catcher spectrum.
25. Jimmy Ryan OF (24) - Could easily be as high as Van Haltren, why did he fade so much?
26. Wally Schang C (25) - If he'd only played a little more in the years he did play.
27. George Sisler 1B (26) - I think he is somewhat overrated by the consensus. His peak was great, but has been overstated.
28. Bob Elliott 3B (27) - Not very far behind Hack, who I would place between Monroe and Medwick. I cannot see how one could rank Childs or Doyle ahead of Elliott (2B pre-1920 being equivalent to 3B post 1935).
29. Dizzy Trout SP (28) - Great pitcher from 1943-46. Moves up more with my pitcher re-evaluation.
30. Tommy Bridges SP (29) - Unspectacular peak, but a lot of career value. He'd slipped off my radar too.
31. Quincy Trouppe C (30) - Good player, a smidge below Mackey and Schang.
32. Joe Sewell SS/3B (31) - Very glad he wasn't rushed in. Good, but not great, peak isn't enough to overcome his short career.
33. Urban Shocker SP (32) - He was one heckuva pitcher. Never had a bad year, ultra consistent with a nice peak.
34. Burleigh Grimes SP (33) - Like Walters, faced pretty steep competition (.520 RSI), so his 256-226 RSI and 107 ERA+ understates his record somewhat.
35. Dick Redding SP (34) - I see him just a little behind Grimes.
36. Roger Bresnahan C/CF (35) - Great OBP and gets a career value boost for being a catcher.
37. Bob Johnson LF (36) - I could have him too low. I need to be careful about purging guys that aren't close to my top 15, but well ahead of others, he was one of those that was lost in the shuffle somehow. One powerful hitter.
38. Dom DiMaggio CF (37) - With war credit he has enough career value and a solid peak. As was mentioned in his thread, a poor man's Richie Ashburn.
39. Ed Williamson 3B (38) - Still on the board after 70+ years.
40. Johnny Pesky SS/3B (39) - Basically the same player as Sewell but not as good defensively.
41. Willard Brown LF (40) - Tough to peg after considering his incredibly low walk rates.
42. Rube Waddell SP (41) - Another one that I shouldn't have dropped.
43. Walker Cooper C (42) - Great hitter for a catcher, just a smidge below Bresnahan and Schang.
44. Lave Cross 3B (43) - Also caught some. See Traynor for the reason he's back on the board. Enormous career value. Superb defender at important position(s).
45. Mike Griffin CF (44) - Great defensive player, could hit too. Keeping his memory alive . . .
46. Hugh Duffy OF (45) - Has to be behind Jimmy Ryan. I just don't see why some people like him so much. What makes him any better than Griffin? Griffin was on base more, and was a better fielder. Griffin had almost as much power. I just don't see it. If Duffy didn't have about 2 seasons on Griffin, he wouldn't be this close.
47. Cupid Childs 2B (46) - Good hitter, but 2B was a hitter's position in his time. Very similar to Stan Hack, much shorter career though. He gets a bump this week, as Schoendienst is making me re-evaluate the infielders.
48. Edd Roush CF (47) - Weak league hurts him.
49. Larry Gardner 3B (48) - I see him as a tad behind Traynor, about equal to Childs after bumping for 3B D in his era.
50. Ben Taylor 1B (49) - Not that far off Beckley, shows how tight the ballot is.
51. Pie Traynor 3B (50) - Back on the board. I think we are all seriously underrating 3B defense from the mid-30s back. Could move significantly higher once I get a better handle on this.
52. Mel Harder SP (51) - Forgotten everywhere but Cleveland it seems like, but he was a really good pitcher. With Grove hurt, he was arguably (Hubbell?) the best pitcher in baseball from 1933-35.
53. Billy Nash 3B (52) - Similar to Traynor, better glove, less pop.
54. Vic Willis SP (53) - I think I should have him higher, but I can't place him ahead of any of these guys.
55. Red Schoendienst 2B (54) - Good player, very nice peak from 1952-54. About equal as a hitter to someone like Concepcion or Campaneris, but they played SS, not 2B. Can't see any way to rank him ahead of someone like Larry Gardner, Billy Nash, Pie Traynor, Cupid Childs, etc.. So I bumped the others, since I don't think Schoendienst should be lower than this.
56. Bobo Newsom SP (55) - Similar to Leonard, kind of flies under the radar, but had a good career while he was bouncing all over the place, not much in terms of peak.
57. Dick Lundy SS (56) - Back on the radar, not as good as Sewell IMO.
58. Mickey Welch SP (57) - I should not have completely dropped him from consideration. I think he was a good pitcher, not a great one.
59. Don Newcombe SP (58) - Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see anyway possible to rank him ahead of Mel Harder. I think this is probably too high.
60. Bobby Avila 2B (59) - Gives him some credit for pre-major league play. Had a couple of really big years in the early 1950s.
61. Charlie Keller LF (60) - God could he hit. But his career makes Kiner's look long.
62. John McGraw 3B (61) - One helluva player - when he could stay on the field. More in-season durability would have significantly raised his ranking.
63. Dizzy Dean SP (62) - Great pitcher for a couple years. Too bad his career was cut short.
63. Lefty Gomez SP (63) - Quite comparable to Dean. Similar career value, Dean had the higher peak.
64. Tommy Henrich RF (63) - Don't forget to give him 3 years of war credit. I think Moises Alou is a very good comp.
65. Alvin Dark SS (64) - Shortstops that can hit league average are a valuable commodity.
66. Alejandro Oms OF (65) - Convince me if you think this is too low, I'm listening.
67. George Scales SS (66) - I'll side with those who say he was similar to, but not as good as Sewell or Moore. Is it wrong to have him behind Lundy?
68. Mickey Vernon 1B (67) - Good player, long valuable career, not nearly the hitter Beckley or Taylor were.
69. Addie Joss SP (68) - Not very durable in season, short career. Great whenever he was on the field. Similar to John McGraw in that respect.
70. Pete Browning CF (69) - He's on the board again. I just don't think the AA was all that good when Browning dominated it, he was a good player, but his stats need serious deflation. The bat was great, the D was awful and the career was short.
71. Gil Hodges 1B (70) - I don't see how he can be ranked above Vernon.
72. Larry Doyle 2B (71) - Another good pre-Ruth 2B, but he wasn't very good defensively, and the position wasn't even difficult at the time. I see him as similar as a hitter to Bob Elliott through 1950. He should be compared to post-war 3B, not 2B. He wasn't as good as Elliott defensively either.
73. Eddie Yost 3B (72) - Very good player, that OBP was amazing, +.051 vs. league average, despite hitting just .254 for his career. Bad D at 3B though, and not much power.
74. Sherm Lollar C (73) - Good player, somewhat forgotten by history. Catcher bonus gets him on the ballot.
   111. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 21, 2006 at 01:00 AM (#1869868)
The election is now over. Results will be posted shortly.
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