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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, April 17, 20061974 Results: The Hall of Merit Version of the “M & M Boys” Are This Year’s Standard Bearers!In his first year of eligibility, New York Yankee star slugger Mickey Mantle became the 10th unanimous selection for the HoM, joining Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, and Stan Musial among that prestigous group. Another newbie, modern style third baseman Eddie Mathews, collected an “elect me” vote from 51 out of 52 voters as he picked up 95% of all possible points. Rounding out the top-ten were: George Sisler, José Méndez (another big gain for him!), Willard Brown, Biz Mackey (slipping a little), Joe Gordon, Minnie Minoso, Cannonball Dick Redding, and Ralph Kiner (first time in the top-ten!. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Mickey Mantle 1248 52 52 2 n/e Eddie Mathews 1190 52 51 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 4 George Sisler 381 31 1 1 3 3 1 3 1 3 2 6 2 2 1 2 4 8 José Méndez 360 27 3 3 3 4 3 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 5 5 Willard Brown 357 29 4 2 4 1 3 2 2 3 3 2 1 2 6 3 Biz Mackey 354 30 2 1 5 2 5 2 2 1 1 3 3 3 7 7 Joe Gordon 353 30 4 7 1 1 1 2 3 2 3 1 5 8 9 Minnie Minoso 329 29 3 1 1 2 4 3 4 2 2 3 1 3 9 6 Cannonball Dick Redding 313 24 5 1 2 3 1 4 1 1 2 3 1 10 11 Ralph Kiner 296 25 4 1 2 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 10 George Van Haltren 274 21 4 3 1 1 1 2 1 2 3 2 1 12 12 Dobie Moore 266 19 5 2 5 2 1 2 2 13 14 Hugh Duffy 254 18 3 3 1 3 1 3 2 1 1 14 15 Joe Sewell 246 22 1 1 1 4 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 3 4 15 13 Jake Beckley 245 18 5 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 16 17 Billy Pierce 230 20 2 3 4 2 1 2 1 4 1 17 16 Pete Browning 216 17 2 3 1 1 1 3 3 1 1 1 18 18 Cupid Childs 213 17 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 19 22 Rube Waddell 196 16 1 4 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 20 20 Nellie Fox 190 16 1 2 2 2 1 4 1 1 1 1 21 23 Quincy Trouppe 177 15 3 2 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 22 19 Bucky Walters 176 14 2 1 2 1 3 2 3 23 21 Mickey Welch 155 11 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 24 26 Alejandro Oms 146 13 2 3 2 1 2 2 1 25 25 Tommy Leach 144 13 3 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 26 27T Gavy Cravath 143 12 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 2 27 29 Edd Roush 140 11 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 28 24 Charley Jones 137 10 1 2 1 3 2 1 29 27T Roger Bresnahan 122 11 2 1 1 2 3 1 1 30 31 Bob Johnson 120 11 1 2 1 2 1 2 2 31 32 Bob Elliott 112 11 2 2 1 2 1 1 2 32 30 Burleigh Grimes 103 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 33 33 Larry Doyle 98 7 1 1 1 1 1 2 34 34 Wally Schang 90 8 1 1 2 3 1 35 35 Charlie Keller 68 5 1 1 2 1 36 37 Dizzy Dean 67 7 1 1 2 1 2 37 36 John McGraw 65 5 2 1 1 1 38 48T Vern Stephens 53 5 1 1 1 1 1 39 40 Pie Traynor 47 4 1 2 1 40 38 Addie Joss 43 4 1 1 1 1 41 54 Carl Mays 42 4 2 2 42 39 Tommy Bridges 41 4 1 1 2 43 41 Fielder Jones 41 3 1 1 1 44 45T Tony Mullane 37 4 1 1 1 1 45 48T Phil Rizzuto 36 3 1 1 1 46T 51 Ernie Lombardi 35 3 1 1 1 46T 47 Dizzy Trout 35 3 1 1 1 48 42 Jimmy Ryan 34 3 1 1 1 49T 52 Frank Chance 32 3 1 1 1 49T 55 Chuck Klein 32 3 2 1 49T 50 Bill Monroe 32 3 1 1 1 52 44 Vic Willis 31 3 1 1 1 53 n/e Elston Howard 30 4 1 1 1 1 54 65 Lefty Gomez 29 3 1 1 1 55 43 Ben Taylor 29 2 1 1 56 45T Dutch Leonard 27 3 1 1 1 57T 58T Gil Hodges 22 2 1 1 57T 56T Sam Rice 22 2 2 59 53 Ed Williamson 21 2 1 1 60 56T Ed Cicotte 20 2 1 1 61T 60 Fred Dunlap 19 2 1 1 61T 61 Rabbit Maranville 19 2 1 1 63 64 Luke Easter 16 1 1 64 63 Johnny Pesky 15 1 1 65 66 Bobby Veach 13 1 1 66 67 Tommy Bond 12 1 1 67T 70T Bob Friend 11 1 1 67T 69 Sam Leever 11 1 1 67T 70T Red Schoendienst 11 1 1 70 70T Artie Wilson 10 1 1 71 73 Bus Clarkson 9 1 1 72T 74T Wilbur Cooper 8 1 1 72T 58T Dom DiMaggio 8 1 1 72T 74T Herman Long 8 1 1 72T 76 Spot Poles 8 1 1 72T 62 Virgil Trucks 8 1 1 77 77T Hack Wilson 7 1 1 78T 77T Dave Bancroft 6 1 1 78T 68 Al Rosen 6 1 1 78T 80 Curt Simmons 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Wally Berger(77T). Ballots Cast: 52
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: April 17, 2006 at 07:03 PM | 34 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#1969647)Congrats to all-time greats Mickey and Eddie!
As for poor Biz...
Chris Fluit: 9
Michael Bass: 7
Ardo: 6
Andrew Siegel: 6
SWW: 6
Chris Cobb: 5
Tom H: 5
Rusty Priske: 5
OCF: 5
...
DanG: 2
-- median here --
Sean Gilman: 2
...
Jim Sp: -2
Al Peterson: -2
Eric C: -4
Joe Dimino: -4
Dolf Lucky: -5
KJOK: -5
yest: -5 (so he broke the unanimity, but he at least had Mathews 4th)
karlmagnus: -6
HOF-not-HOM through 1974
1. Bancroft, Dave
2. Beckley, Jake
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Bresnahan, Roger
6 Chance, Frank
7 Chesbro, Jack
8 Clemente, Roberto**
9 Combs, Earle
10 Cuyler, Kiki
11 Dean, Dizzy
12 Duffy, Hugh
13 Evers, Johnny
14 Gomez, Lefty
15 Grimes, Burleigh
16 Hafey, Chick
17 Haines, Jesse
18 Hooper, Harry
19 Hoyt, Waite
20 Kelly, George
21 Manush, Heinie
22 Maranville, Rabbit
23 Marquard, Rube
24 McCarthy, Tommy
25 McGraw, John
26 Pennock, Herb
27 Rice, Sam
28 Roush, Edd
29 Schalk, Ray
30 Sisler, George
31 Tinker, Joe
32 Traynor, Pie
33 Waddell, Rube
34 Waner, Lloyd
35 Welch, Mickey
36 Youngs, Ross
And HOM not-HOF
1 Ashburn, Richie
2 Averill, Earl
3 Barnes, Ross
4 Beckwith, John
5 Bennett, Charlie
6 Brown, Ray
7 Caruthers, Bob
8 Charleston, Oscar
9 Connor, Roger
10 Dahlen, Bill
11 Davis, George
12 Dihigo, Martin
13 Doby, Larry
14 Doerr, Bobby
15 Ferrell, Wes
16 Foster, Rube
17 Foster, Willie
18 Glasscock, Jack
19 Gore, George
20 Grant, Frank
21 Groh, Heinie
22 Hack, Stan
23 Herman, Billy
24 Hill, Pete
25 Hines, Paul
26 Jackson, Joe*
27 Johnson, Home Run
28 Lemon, Bob
29 Lloyd, John Henry
30 Magee, Sherry
31 Mathews, Eddie
32 McPhee, Bid
33 McVey, Cal
34 Mize, Johnny
35 Newhouser, Hal
36 Pearce, Dickey
37 Pike, Lip
38 Richardson, Hardy
39 Reese, Pee Wee
40 Roberts, Robin
41 Rogan, Bullet Joe
42 Rusie, Amos
43 Santop, Louis
44 Sheckard, Jimmy
45 Slaughter, Enos
46 Snider, Duke
47 Start, Joe
48 Stearnes, Turkey
49 Stovey, Harry
50 Suttles, Mule
51 Sutton, Ezra
52 Torriente, Cristobal
53 Vaughan, Arky
54 Wells, Willie
55 White, Deacon
56 Williams, Smokey Joe
57 Wilson, Jud
* not eligible for the HOF
** not eligible for the HoM until 1978.
Ford goes in with the Mick.
Mathews gets little respect.
Name Votes PCT
Mickey Mantle 322 88.22
Whitey Ford 284 77.81
Robin Roberts 224 61.37
Ralph Kiner 215 58.90
Gil Hodges 198 54.25
Bob Lemon 190 52.05
Enos Slaughter 145 39.73
Pee Wee Reese 141 38.63
Eddie Mathews 118 32.33
Duke Snider 111 30.41
Phil Rizzuto 111 30.41
Red Schoendienst 110 30.14
Allie Reynolds 101 27.67
George Kell 94 25.75
Nellie Fox 79 21.64
Roger Maris 78 21.37
Hal Newhouser 73 20.00
Phil Cavarretta 61 16.71
Richie Ashburn 56 15.34
Alvin Dark 54 14.79
Johnny Sain 51 13.97
Don Larsen 29 7.95
Ted Kluszewski 28 7.67
Mickey Vernon 27 7.40
Elston Howard 19 5.21
Carl Erskine 11 3.01
Walker Cooper 9 2.47
Harvey Haddix 8 2.19
Lew Burdette 7 1.92
Don Newcombe 7 1.92
Bobby Thomson 6 1.64
Vern Law 5 1.37
Bobby Richardson 5 1.37
Dick Groat 4 1.10
Roy McMillan 4 1.10
Billy Pierce 4 1.10
Gil McDougald 3 0.82
Vic Raschi 3 0.82
Bobby Shantz 3 0.82
Curt Simmons 3 0.82
Bill Virdon 3 0.82
Smoky Burgess 2 0.55
Rocky Colavito 2 0.55
Vic Wertz 2 0.55
Larry Doby 0 0.00
Mize, Marion, Dom DiMaggio and Newsom were no longer eligible and became VC candidates.
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 20053.5
BECKLEY 18857
DUFFY 18340.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
BROWNING 16247.5
CHILDS 14158
WADDELL 13889
WELCH 13519
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
SISLER 11715
Bennett 11503
RYAN 11179.5
Rixey 10826
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
TLEACH 9282
BRESNAHAN 9237
SEWELL 8878
CJONES 8715
MACKEY 8505
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Redding 8150, Mendez 7873, Roush 6210, Doyle 5946, Monroe 5864, Moore 5856, Williamson 4869, Cravath 4723, Grimes 4558, WBrown 4430, Schang 4235)
(Almost, McGraw 4045)
I'm due to update the Kiner and Pierce numbers, maybe even Trouppe or Walters...
Well, what to you expect for a lifetime .271 hitter?
Hodges ahead of Mathews? Sheesh.
For that matter, Mantle elected easily, which is nice, but only 88% of the vote. He shouldn't be first-ballot unanimous because he wasn't as good as - as good as - ... Help me here, who exactly were they waiting for or comparing him to?
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Del Pratt
SS Travis Jackson
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Heinie Manush
P Hilton Smith
(For an explanation of my methodology for evaluating pitchers, take a look at my comments in the Drysdale thread.)
I try to approach this exercise as if I am picking a 25-man roster. What this means is that I have positional quotas: 5 OF, 3 CI, 3 MI, 2 C, 3 UT, 9 P. I am a peak/prime voter for hitters using Win Shares. For Negro Leaguers, I consider the posted stats and MLEs, as well as the subjective opinions of the players. Also, I give full credit to players who missed time because of World War II.
I am in the process of reevaluating pitchers using a measure that is a combination of marginal runs saved and runs saved above average. (EDIT: This is about finished; my system also takes into account pitcher's hitting and postseason performance.)
1975 HOM Ballot
1. Don Drysdale - Great power pitcher who gets a bad rap for his pennant race performance. Excellent hitter and pitched well in the World Series. 25th-ranked MLB pitcher of all-time, behind Smoltz and ahead of Plank.
2. Charlie Keller - With war credit, "King Kong" had six straight MVP-caliber seasons with two more All-Star level seasons to start his career. Ranks seventh all-time among major league left fielders to date, which puts him ahead of nine other HOMers at the position.
3. Minnie Minoso - Ranks this high because of greater confidence in his career record than the other Negro Leaguers.
4. Dobie Moore - Absolute monster at shortstop. Value comparable to Hughie Jennings, who I liked, but better.
5. Jose Mendez - Mendez and Redding are certifiable HOMers, though I like Mendez's peak a bit more.
6. Dick Redding - Gets bumped up a bit based on subjective opinion, but still a strong candidate.
7. Dizzy Dean - High peak with lots of innings, pitched well in the postseason, very good hitter. 49th all-time, behind Vance and ahead of Fingers.
8. Quincy Trouppe - Love, love, love the MLEs. A catcher who could absolutely rake.
9. Billy Pierce - Poor man's Whitey Ford. 56th all-time, behind Ferrell and ahead of Tiant.
10. Willard Brown - He gets bumped down to this spot because his lack of plate discipline makes projecting career value a bit uncertain.
11. Rube Waddell - A strikeout pitcher nonpareil. 60th all-time, the peak/prime meat between two slices of career bread, Lyons and John.
12. Nellie Fox - Very closely linked to Leach in terms of value. Both players are underrated by the electorate because they were not eye-popping in any one facet of the game. Edge goes to Fox because of his peak seasons.
13. Tommy Leach - Criminally underrated by the electorate. Seventh-greatest major league third baseman of all-time to date.
14. Tommy Bridges - Not a workhorse, but very effective. 63rd all-time, behind Saberhagen and ahead of the next guy.
15. Carl Mays - Hitting and postseason pitching worth about six ERA+ points. 64th all-time, ahead of Caruthers.
The Next Ten
16. Urban Shocker - Underrated; stays pegged here as a borderline ballot candidate. 66th all-time, behind Caruthers and ahead of Hunter.
17. Biz Mackey - As high as I can place him given his spotty hitting record. Still would be a good HOM selection, though.
18. Joe Gordon - Can't cram his way into the ballot sausagefest. He's absolutely a HOMer in my eyes.
19. Hugh Duffy - He's the type of player I love to root for: great all-around, no holes in any one facet of his game, kind of like Bobby Abreu.
20. Ralph Kiner - Two-dimensional player (power and walks) whose peak is somewhat overrated. You have to be historically great to crack the ballot with a ten-year career.
21. Bucky Walters - Good pitcher and hitter, gets dinged a little bit for World War II. 71st all-time between Finley and Stieb.
22. Virgil Trucks - Gets WWII credit from me. 73rd all-time, behind Stieb and ahead of Lee Smith.
23. Alejandro Oms - The last HOM-caliber player in my consideration set.
24. Ken Boyer - Nice peak/prime. Can't see him making my ballot, though. Very similar to Sisler in career value.
25. George Sisler - Peak is hugely overrated and didn't really do much with the stick compared to the other greats at the position. Only ranks this high because my team needs a first baseman. But if I think Sisler is one of the biggest HOM mistakes, we're probably doing pretty good. He wasn't peanuts (though my system has him just behind Albert Pujols.)
Other Top 10 Returnees:
George Van Haltren - In an OF backlog with Roush, Cravath, Berger and Veach.
He's actually at 17 on my ballot right now - some backlog clearance and he may see daylight from me
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Del Pratt
SS Travis Jackson
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Heinie Manush
P Hilton Smith
Pratt and Manush have received votes (though not many).
Pratt debuted in 29th with 6 votes (61 pts) in 1930.
I don't think he's received a vote since 1942.
Manush debuted in 52nd with 2 votes (16 pts) in 1945.
I don't think he's received a vote since 1951.
LF Ken Williams
SS Harvey Kuenn (if he counts at ss) instead of Jackson
I had him 14 or 15 last year, Mantle and Mathews knocked him off this year. He'll be back on in '76.
He did play the most games at that position, so that's reasonable, yest.
No votes for either. Your choice.
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Fred Pfeffer
SS Harvey Kuenn
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Ken Williams
P Hilton Smith
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Fred Pfeffer
SS Harvey Kuenn
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Ken Williams
P Hilton Smith
Good enough to win a pennant.
Well, you have a point there. :-)
Charlie Buffinton
Babe Adams
Don Newcombe
I have (only) 8 HOM electees who would not make my top 10 on this year’s ballot.
Approximate spots they would be on:
E Averill, D Medwick, B Doerr all #12
P Galvin, B Caruthers #15
R Foster #20 R Faber #25
H Jennings about #50
If you're talking greenies, I don't believe anybody brought it up.
On a competitive level, was the Mick getting a leg up over his peers? IOW, if the majority of players from his generation were using amphetamines, how significant would be his benefit then?
Go back far enough, and this has to be at the pioneer stage.
The questions are: How far back is that? Who were the pioneers? (guinea pigs?)
The questions are: How far back is that? Who were the pioneers? (guinea pigs?)
That's the problem, Jim. I can't even give you a reasonable guess for any of your questions.
I had said perviously that I would hold off for a year any player that tested positive for steroids or has admitted to taking them. I have decided that the latter is a little harsh and while I may still do the former, I am rethinking it.
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