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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, May 15, 20061976 Results: “Flash” and “Esse Hombre” Get Their Hall of Merit Plaques!In his 21st election, Yankee and Indian star Joe Gordon got his HoM ticket stamped with 42% of all possible points. In his 19th year of eligibility, Negro League slugger Willard Brown also achieved immortality by earning 38% of all possible points. He is now our 25th NeL selection. Rounding out the top-ten were: George Sisler (missed it by this much), José Méndez , Minnie Minoso , Cannonball Dick Redding , Ralph Kiner, Joe Sewell (back in the top-ten after a long absence), Dobie Moore, and Hugh Duffy . RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 5 Joe Gordon 511 34 1 6 4 2 1 2 4 1 4 2 1 3 1 1 1 2 3 Willard Brown 464 32 4 1 2 2 4 2 2 4 1 3 2 3 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 4 George Sisler 460 33 2 3 6 5 1 2 4 3 4 2 1 4 6 José Méndez 421 26 5 1 3 3 4 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 5 7 Minnie Minoso 403 35 2 2 1 3 1 3 3 6 2 2 2 3 5 6 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 384 25 5 1 1 4 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 3 7 12 Joe Sewell 352 26 1 2 1 3 1 4 3 1 1 3 4 1 1 8 11 Ralph Kiner 348 27 3 1 1 4 1 2 3 1 5 2 2 2 9 9 Dobie Moore 340 23 3 2 4 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 10 10 Hugh Duffy 328 21 2 2 3 2 4 3 1 1 1 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 16 Jake Beckley 315 21 4 1 3 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 12 14 George Van Haltren 298 19 2 3 1 1 1 4 3 3 1 13 13 Pete Browning 291 20 3 2 2 1 1 4 2 1 1 3 14 19 Ken Boyer 290 24 2 1 2 2 1 3 1 1 1 1 6 3 15 18 Billy Pierce 288 22 2 1 2 2 2 2 3 1 2 1 1 3 16 15 Cupid Childs 287 21 3 2 1 3 1 2 3 2 2 2 17 17 Rube Waddell 276 19 2 5 1 2 3 1 4 1 18 20 Nellie Fox 248 18 1 1 3 2 2 1 3 1 1 1 1 1 19 26 Charley Jones 227 14 1 3 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 20 21 Quincy Trouppe 216 16 3 1 4 1 1 2 1 2 1 21 24 Bucky Walters 215 18 1 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 22 23 Edd Roush 208 16 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 1 3 23 22 Mickey Welch 195 11 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 24 25 Tommy Leach 188 14 2 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 4 25 27 Roger Bresnahan 185 14 2 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 26 29 Bob Johnson 166 13 2 1 1 2 1 5 1 27 30 Gavy Cravath 165 12 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 28 28 Alejandro Oms 164 14 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 1 29 32 Bob Elliott 162 14 2 1 2 1 1 2 4 1 30 31 Burleigh Grimes 146 10 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 31 34 Charlie Keller 145 10 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 32 33 Larry Doyle 140 9 1 2 3 2 1 33 35 Wally Schang 99 7 1 3 1 1 1 34 36 Dizzy Dean 88 9 1 2 3 2 1 35 37 John McGraw 88 5 2 2 1 36 50 Ben Taylor 70 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 37 42 Vic Willis 69 7 1 1 1 2 1 1 38 38 Tommy Bridges 66 6 1 1 1 1 2 39 44 Sam Rice 57 6 2 1 2 1 40 45 Jimmy Ryan 56 6 1 1 1 2 1 41 39 Vern Stephens 52 4 2 1 1 42 40 Addie Joss 51 4 1 1 1 1 43 51 Elston Howard 50 6 1 1 2 1 1 44 41 Bill Monroe 49 4 1 1 1 1 45 43 Pie Traynor 47 3 1 1 1 46 49 Phil Rizzuto 45 4 1 1 1 1 47 46 Carl Mays 43 4 2 1 1 48 48 Lefty Gomez 38 3 1 2 49 52 Dutch Leonard 35 3 1 2 50T 56T Ernie Lombardi 34 3 2 1 50T 47 Ed Williamson 34 3 1 1 1 52 55 Tony Mullane 33 4 1 1 1 1 53 53 Fielder Jones 32 2 1 1 54 73T Dave Bancroft 30 3 1 1 1 55 54 Frank Chance 28 2 1 1 56 59 Rabbit Maranville 27 2 1 1 57 58 Gil Hodges 26 2 1 1 58 56T Ed Cicotte 23 2 1 1 59 69T Virgil Trucks 21 2 1 1 60 60 Fred Dunlap 19 2 1 1 61 n/e Luke Easter 18 1 1 62 71T Hack Wilson 16 2 1 1 63 61 Chuck Klein 15 1 1 64T 67T Herman Long 14 1 1 64T 62T Red Schoendienst 14 1 1 64T 64T Dizzy Trout 14 1 1 67T 67T Artie Wilson 13 1 1 67T 64T Bob Friend 13 1 1 67T 62T Sam Leever 13 1 1 70T 69T Bus Clarkson 12 1 1 70T 64T Bobby Veach 12 1 1 72T n/e Buzz Arlett 10 1 1 72T 71T Wilbur Cooper 10 1 1 72T 73T Dom DiMaggio 10 1 1 75 75 Curt Simmons 8 1 1 76 n/e George J. Burns 7 1 1 77T n/e Dick Bartell 6 1 1 77T n/e Wally Berger 6 1 1 77T n/e George Kell 6 1 1 Ballots Cast: 51
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: May 15, 2006 at 06:00 PM | 169 comment(s)
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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Though Sisler would have been a fine choice, it's nice clearing up the top part of my ballot of backloggers for a change. :-)
Average: -14.5. Third lowest in history, surpassed by 1968 (-15.4) and 1967 (-15.0).
Michael Bass: -6
Chris Fluit: -7
Rob Wood: -8
Howie Menckel: -9
Ardo: -9
TomH: -10
...
Chris Cobb: -12
...
OCF: -13
...
Tiboreau: -14
AJM: -14 (medians)
...
John Murphy: -15
...
DL from MN: -20
Joe Dimino: -20
Jim Sp: -20
yest: -22 (even though we nearly elected Sisler)
EricC: -23
karlmagnus: -25
KJOK: -25
Maybe by later this week I'll try doing the voter-to-voter similarity score, but not today or tomorrow.
HOF-not-HOM through 1975
1. Bancroft, Dave
2. Beckley, Jake
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Bresnahan, Roger
6 Chance, Frank
7 Chesbro, Jack
8 Clemente, Roberto**
9 Combs, Earle
10 Cuyler, Kiki
11 Dean, Dizzy
12 Duffy, Hugh
13 Evers, Johnny
14 Gomez, Lefty
15 Grimes, Burleigh
16 Hafey, Chick
17 Haines, Jesse
18 Hooper, Harry
19 Hoyt, Waite
20 Johnson, Judy
21 Kelly, George
22 Kiner, Ralph
23 Lindstrom, Freddie
24 Manush, Heinie
25 Maranville, Rabbit
26 Marquard, Rube
27 McCarthy, Tommy
28 McGraw, John
29 Pennock, Herb
30 Rice, Sam
31 Roush, Edd
32 Schalk, Ray
33 Sisler, George
34 Tinker, Joe
35 Traynor, Pie
36 Waddell, Rube
37 Waner, Lloyd
38 Welch, Mickey
39 Youngs, Ross
And HOM not-HOF
1 Ashburn, Richie
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Brown, Ray
6 Brown, Willard
7 Caruthers, Bob
8 Dahlen, Bill
9 Davis, George
10 Dihigo, Martin
11 Doby, Larry
12 Doerr, Bobby
13 Drysdale, Don
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Foster, Rube
16 Foster, Willie
17 Glasscock, Jack
18 Gordon, Joe
19 Gore, George
20 Grant, Frank
21 Groh, Heinie
22 Hack, Stan
23 Hill, Pete
24 Hines, Paul
25 Jackson, Joe*
26 Johnson, Home Run
27 Lloyd, John Henry
28 Magee, Sherry
29 Mathews, Eddie
30 McPhee, Bid
31 McVey, Cal
32 Mize, Johnny
33 Newhouser, Hal
34 Pearce, Dickey
35 Pike, Lip
36 Richardson, Hardy
37 Reese, Pee Wee
38 Rogan, Bullet Joe
39 Rusie, Amos
40 Santop, Louis
41 Sheckard, Jimmy
42 Slaughter, Enos
43 Snider, Duke
44 Start, Joe
45 Stearnes, Turkey
46 Stovey, Harry
47 Suttles, Mule
48 Sutton, Ezra
49 Torriente, Cristobal
50 Vaughan, Arky
51 Wells, Willie
52 White, Deacon
53 Williams, Smokey Joe
54 Wilson, Jud
* not eligible for the HOF
** not eligible for the HoM until 1978.
I'm ticked off at myself, but my ballot would not have changed anything. I would have had Gordon 13th, Brown 4th and Sisler 5th. There's some comfort in that, I guess.
I think it is all Joe's fault...setting a bad example. :)
Since it wouldn't change anything, unless someone objects, why don't you post it so you can preserve your record?
But that ain't my bailiwick, either...
At least he still got in while he's alive.
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 20622.5
BECKLEY 19418
DUFFY 19060.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
BROWNING 16796.5
CHILDS 14697
WADDELL 14394
WELCH 13901
Pike 13399
SISLER 12576
Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
RYAN 11306.5
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
TLEACH 9644
BRESNAHAN 9579
H Stovey 9576
SEWELL 9520
CJONES 9091
Mackey 8930
REDDING 8890
MENDEZ 8607
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Roush 6604, Moore 6533, Doyle 6214, Monroe 5959, Cravath 5027, Williamson 4940, Grimes 4837, Schang 4431, McGraw 4216, Walters 3776)
almost
(Kiner 3740, Oms 3202, McCormick 3148, Joss 2990, Willis 2824)
Sisler looks well-positioned for the next backlog spot that will open up in 1979 (unless of course he beats out Bunning in 1977 -- unlikely but imaginable). After that, the next shot for everybody on the ballot now will be in 1985, I think, as we have
1977
Banks
Bunning
1978
Clemente
Wilhelm
1979
Mays
________
1980 - elect 3
Kaline
Santo
Marichal
1981
Gibson
Killebrew
1982
Aaron
F. Robinson
B. Williams (elect 1983)
Freehan (elect 1984 or 1985)
1983
Allen
Br. Robinson (elect 1984 or 1985)
Torre (elect 1984 or 1985)
1984
See Above
1985 -- elect 3
Lou Brock (will he go in??)
Since 1985 is an "elect three" year, even if Brock is elected along with the odd man out of Torre, Freehan, and Brooks Robinson, one from the backlog will go in as well. To the backlog we will have added by 1985 F. Howard, Aparicio, Cepeda, Cash, Pinson, W. Davis, Oliva, Fregosi, Munson, and Hunter. I think we'll elect someone from the older backlog ahead of any of these guys, but who knows?
15 or more points per vote
--1 5 Joe Gordon 502 33 1 6 4 2 1 2 4 1 4 2 1 2 1 1 1
4 6 José Méndez 421 26 5 1 3 3 4 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2
6 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 384 25 5 1 1 4 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 3
10 16 Jake Beckley 315 21 4 1 3 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2
11 10 Hugh Duffy 305 20 2 1 3 2 4 3 1 1 1 1 1
12 14 George Van Haltren 298 19 2 3 1 1 1 4 3 3 1
21 26 Charley Jones 211 13 1 3 1 2 3 1 1 1
23 22 Mickey Welch 195 11 3 1 2 1 2 1 1
32 33 Larry Doyle 140 9 1 2 3 2 1
--
34 37 John McGraw 88 5 2 2 1
45 43 Pie Traynor 47 3 1 1 1
53 53 Fielder Jones 32 2 1 1
61 n/e Luke Easter 18 1 1
63 61 Chuck Klein 15 1 1
Wholesale Batting Cages
Should we buy a dozen for when we build the concrete Hall of Merit?
Did I post that in the wrong place before visiting the other hot topics? Or lose it?
Well, it's not for tonight.
I so proud of me!
Or to put it another way, Friends of Cupid Childs should be extremely agitated by Doerr's and Gordon's elections, while the Nellie Fox hounds should be drawing up rallying slogans since he's the natural successor to them among borderline second baseman. Look, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think we're taking too many borderliner 2Bs and we're not being particularly consistent in evaluating them. And if we elect more of these guys (or Sewell for that matter), we're just playing the dreaded if-one-then-the-other game. How about neither instead?
Nellie Fox's career is damn near as close to Gordon and Doerr as anyone needs and he's not outside the realm of a future backlog election. Lou Whitaker's going to be a candidate just like all three of them. Are we going to take all four of those guys? And then how far down into the depths of borderlinerland are we going to reach? Bret Boone? Dave Lopes? Why not Bobby Avila? Why not Marv Williams? Where's the support for Lazzeri? Knobby? Evers?
Why not Doyle? What about Childs?
Right now, through "1977," Joe Morgan, Bobby Grich, Rod Carew, and Pete Rose have already established the credentials that are putting them on their way toward a HOM career, and a much more accomplished one than any of the guys mentioned above, so it's not like we don't know what HOM 2Bs look like. Then why are we electing second baseman who will ultimately look like some of our weakest selections?
> weakest selections?
Beats electing outfielders or pitchers who will ultimately look like some of our weakest selections.
I'm amazed. I went from top of consensus to bottom of consensus in 6 years.
Since I don't look at WARP beyond the NA for non-pitchers, their defensive system means squat to me. I'm working with Win Shares.
Why not Doyle? What about Childs?
I'm not a fan of Doyle, but I had Childs above Gordon, so I agree he belongs if Gordon does (and the latter does, IMO). Which backlogger dominated his position like Cupid did?
Right now, through "1977," Joe Morgan, Bobby Grich, Rod Carew, and Pete Rose have already established the credentials that are putting them on their way toward a HOM career, and a much more accomplished one than any of the guys mentioned above, so it's not like we don't know what HOM 2Bs look like. Then why are we electing second baseman who will ultimately look like some of our weakest selections?
Is Grich appreciatively better than Gordon or even Doerr after taking into account WWII and the longer careers of later generations?
Whoever we elect in a backlog year is going to look like some of our weakest selections, so "weak selection" is no argument for 1976. Gordon is demonstrably better than Childs, Fox, and Doyle, and it is not clear after 1976 that any of them will be elected, so the argument that we are setting a dangerous precedent in electing Gordon doesn't wash either.
The relevant question, and it is always the relevant question, is "Is he the best player eligible?"
And, echoing what DL and Chris said, whoever we elected this year was going to look like one of our weakest selections. Hell, whoever we elected this year was almost certainly going to *be* one of our weakest selections. Welcome to late-stage backlog elections.
I had Gordon and Doerr about even with Childs ahead of them. Childs was #2 on my 1976 ballot, PHOM 1939, while Gordon was #9, PHOM 1976, and Doerr is going to be PHOM soon.
Quick question, why would you use the amount of Hall of Famers as your benchmark for how many Hall of Merit'ers you elect, especially given that you espouse that the Hall of Fame needs "correcting"? Shouldn't the number of HoM inductees be a more objective benchmark?
Joe Dimino's vision was to create a separate HoM, not just to enshrine the best players, but to be used as a comparative study. I know some people will argue that the real HOF is the BBWAA and we should have used a much smaller model instead, but I would disagree. When the BBWAA was felt to be stingy with their inductees, the Vets' Committee ramped it up because the average fan wants a large HOF instead of a smaller one.
Of course, the size is strictly arbitrary and you and others may have a smaller or larger institution in mind. Regardless, the visitor to this site has an excellent idea of who the inner-circle and borderline HoMers are, which is not always the case with the HOF.
Great minds think alike. :-D
Anyway, here's the way the trends ran:
Climbed to a peak in 1888 (2022 points)
Dropped down until 1895 (1355 points)
Back up quickly for 1898-1901 (2180 points)
Right back down to the low point (except the ends) in 1904-06 (1191 points)
Climbed up steadily until 1920 (3024 points)
Slipped back a bit for 1921-26 (about 2850)
Dropped for 1927-31 (about 2100)
Another drop for 1932-37 (about 1500)
Back up for 1939-45 (about 2150)
Steady climb to overall high point in 1949-50 (3205 point)
Drop 500 points/year for next 3 years
Slowly slide off through 1964 (1400-1250 points) and drop quickly after that.
(This method ignores absences due to wars, blacklists, injuries)
The average is at it highest in the 1890s (except for Charley Jones hanging out by himself in 1875-77), and at it's lowest in the early 1930s.
It's a little surprising to me to see the high point in the early 20s, but that includes Sisler, Mendez, Redding, Sewell and Moore, so I guess it makes sense. I still think the 1900s are being overlooked to a degree. The dip in the 1930s is because we've pretty much picked out every good candidate already - the highest candidates left are Trouppe, Walters, and Bob Johnson. And if you take the electees out (to look forward), after the post-1931 dropoff, it doesn't come back up until 1949, which makes it look like we're pretty much done with the Forties as well.
I also agree with John that Childs dominated his position in a way that none of the backloggers at 2B does, weak position or not. We can't vote, say, Sewell for having dominance over position but not Childs. Except that I think the warp factor comes into play for sewell, penalizing childs but not sewell (to the same extent). but i haven't studied the matter, and i'm probably wrong.
In other news, if we hadn't decided to mirror the Hall's numbers, we'd still be arguing about how big the HOM should be. Good decision to keep track with the HOF.
brackets
1976SislerMendezMinosoReddingarrows
brackets
1976SislerMendezMinosoReddingarrows
I always do my test posts on an old game chatter - a good suggestion from someone. At the end of any given Royals chatter you are likely to see some damn graph about Edd Roush's win shares.
Now, how the heck do you make an Excel chart look right?
Name Votes PCT
Robin Roberts 337 86.86
Bob Lemon 305 78.61
Gil Hodges 233 60.05
Enos Slaughter 197 50.77
Eddie Mathews 189 48.71
Pee Wee Reese 186 47.94
Nellie Fox 174 44.85
Duke Snider 159 40.98
Phil Rizzuto 149 38.40
George Kell 129 33.25
Red Schoendienst 129 33.25
Don Drysdale 114 29.38
Roger Maris 87 22.42
Richie Ashburn 85 21.91
Alvin Dark 62 15.98
Walker Cooper 56 14.43
Elston Howard 55 14.18
Mickey Vernon 52 13.40
Ted Kluszewski 50 12.89
Don Larsen 47 12.11
Roy Face 23 5.93
Lew Burdette 21 5.41
Don Newcombe 21 5.41
Ken Boyer 15 3.87
Del Crandall 15 3.87
Vern Law 9 2.32
Bobby Thomson 9 2.32
Harvey Haddix 8 2.06
Dick Groat 7 1.80
Bill White 7 1.80
Vic Wertz 5 1.29
Johnny Podres 2 0.52
Larry Doby 0 0.00
Fox was the big mover, from 21% the year before.
Rizzuto received a small "last chance" bump.
Newhouser, Cavaretta, and Sain had passed over to the VC.
Get rid of TAB characters. Fill with spaces. TAB characters get ignored in our posts.
Right, and used a fixed-width font like Courier. And use brackets, not arrows. Thanks David (and Dr. Chaleeko). I think this should look OK.
Here are the top four unelected finishers in every election. Sisler is still next in the queue, while Minoso and the NeL pitchers have pushed ahead of GVH and Beckley.
1898 Williamson O'Neill Jones,C Welch1899 Browning Williamson O'Neill Dunlap
1900 Browning Williamson Mullane Welch
1901 Browning Williamson Welch McCormick
1902 Browning Williamson Welch McCormick
1903 Browning Williamson Welch McCormick
1904 Browning Griffin Williamson Welch
1905 Browning Tiernan Griffin McCormick
1906 Browning Tiernan McCormick Williamson
1907 Duffy Childs Browning Tiernan
1908 Duffy Childs Tiernan Browning
1909 Ryan Duffy Van Haltren Childs
1910 Duffy Ryan Van Haltren Childs
1911 Duffy Ryan Van Haltren Childs
1912 Duffy Ryan Van Haltren Childs
1913 Duffy Ryan Beckley Van Haltren
1914 Duffy Ryan Beckley Van Haltren
1915 Duffy Ryan Van Haltren Beckley
1916 Waddell Duffy Ryan Van Haltren
1917 Waddell Duffy Van Haltren Beckley
1918 Waddell Van Haltren Ryan Beckley
1919 Waddell Van Haltren Ryan Beckley
1920 Waddell Duffy Van Haltren Beckley
1921 Waddell Bresnahan Beckley Duffy
1922 Waddell Beckley Bresnahan Duffy
1923 Beckley Ryan Waddell Van Haltren
1924 Beckley Waddell Ryan Duffy
1925 Van Haltren Beckley Ryan Waddell
1926 Beckley Van Haltren Ryan Waddell
1927 Beckley Van Haltren Ryan Waddell
1928 Beckley Van Haltren Ryan Wad/Bresn
1929 Beckley Van Haltren Ryan Bresnahan
1930 Van Haltren Beckley Ryan Bresnahan
1931 Van Haltren Beckley Childs Bresnahan
1932 Van Haltren Beckley Waddell Duffy
1933 Van Haltren Beckley Waddell Welch
1934 Beckley Van Haltren Waddell Welch
1935 Beckley Waddell Van Haltren Welch
1936 Beckley Van Haltren Waddell Sisler
1937 Beckley Waddell Sisler Welch
1938 Beckley Sisler Waddell Welch
1939 Sewell Sisler Beckley Waddell
1940 Sewell Sisler Beckley Leach
1941 Sewell Leach Sisler Beckley
1942 Sewell Van Haltren Leach Beckley
1943 Beckley Sewell Van Haltren Sisler
1944 Van Haltren Beckley Sewell Sisler
1945 Sewell Sisler Van Haltren Beckley
1946 Sisler Beckley Duffy Van Haltren
1947 Beckley Sisler Sewell Van Haltren
1948 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Sewell
1949 Sisler Beckley Sewell Van Haltren
1950 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Sewell
1951 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Sewell
1952 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Sewell
1953 Van Haltren Beckley Sisler Welch
1954 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Redding
1955 Beckley Sisler Van Haltren Sewell
1956 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Redding
1957 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Duffy
1958 Sisler Beckley Van Haltren Childs
1959 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Childs
1960 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Childs
1961 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Childs
1962 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Duffy
1963 Van Haltren Sisler Beckley Childs
1964 Van Haltren Sisler Beckley Duffy
1965 Van Haltren Sisler Moore Beckley
1966 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Childs
1967 Sisler Van Haltren Beckley Redding
1968 Van Haltren Sisler Beckley Moore
1969 Van Haltren Sisler Redding Beckley
1970 Van Haltren Sisler Redding Mendez
1971 Sisler Redding Van Haltren Kiner
1972 Van Haltren Sisler Redding Minoso
1973 Sisler Redding Mendez Minoso
1974 Sisler Mendez Minoso Redding
1975 Sisler Mendez Minoso Redding
1976 Sisler Mendez Minoso Redding
Heh.
1898-1906 The Browning Era: Browning and Williamson the leaders, but dropped off the cliff when the four-some of Duffy, Ryanb, GVH and Beckley became eligible circa 1907-09-13.
1907-1915 The Duffy Era: Duffy-Ryan-GVH in that order with Beckley becoming eligible toward the end of the era, initially slotted 3rd behind Duffy and Ryan and ahead of GVH. Childs was in the mix through this era, too.
1916-1922 The Waddell Era: Waddell was #1 for 7 years right from his first year of eligibility. Duffy and GVH (tie), then Beckley, Ryan and Bresnahan follow. GVH and Beckley both pass Ryan, and GVH catches Duffy who had led him by a wide margin previously.
1923-1938 The Beckley-GVH Era: Beckley passes up Duffy and GVH after previously passing Ryan. It took 4 years for him to pass Ryan and another 4 to pass Duffy. But then GVH also passes Duffy, and by a wide margin. In fact, it's Beckley, GVH, Waddell, Ryan with Duffy dropping all the way to 8th in this era. Waddell passed Duffy in 1916, Beckley passed him for good in 1921, and GVH only passed him for good in 1925.
1939-1945 The Sewell Era: Sewell held sway for 5 of 7 years after his eligibility, with Beckley and GVH each in the lead one time. But Sisler passed Beckley and GVH in 1945 and Sewell in 1946 despite being eligible way back in 1946.
1946-1972 The Sisler Era (I): Sisler is #1 17 times, GVH 8 times and Beckley twice. Nobody else is really in the mix, not consistently. Nobody new cracks the leader board (of course, many are not on this list because they got elected). But no new consensus borderliners. I mean, nobody is even on the list for a year, even, except Kiner one time. Otherwise it is all the old backlog--Sewell, Childs, Duffy, Welch--though two of the old backlog--Redding and Moore--get in there a few times between them.
1973-1976 The Sisler Era (II): Sisler still on top but now Mendez, Minoso and Redding move ahead of the classic group of Beckley and GVH plus the Duffys and Sewells and Childs.
In summary, through 1923 and again in 1939 the standings were shaken up my newly eligibles--Browning, Duffy, Ryan, Waddell and Sewell. The mere appearance of a new toy seemed to dramatically affect the ratings of other players, specifically as it relates to the relative position of Duffy, Beckley, GVH, Ryan, guys like that. The appearance of Sewell coincided with the rise of George Sisler to the top of the backlog.
But in 1923 and 1946 there were shifts unrelated to newly eligible--at least new borderliners--I should go back and look at who the new eligibles were who were elected, maybe that was a factor. But in 1923 Waddell dropped and Duffy continued his decline, and Beckley and GVH moved up and stayed up for 50 years. In 1946 Sewell dropped and Sisler took over.
From this, the guys who have most dramatically dropped from favor are indeed Duffy, Waddell and Sewell. The guys who jumped up long after initially becoming eligible are Beckley, GVH and Sisler, and more recently (and remaining questionable as to their staying power) Redding and Mendez.
It might be useful to take a fresh look at Sisler and Sewell. I'm not sure there's much to be gained by going back over the bones of Duffy, Beckley and GVH. But then how about Waddell, Redding and Mendez, too?
There are only a few players over the years whose evaluation here has changed dramatically from what it started out to be.
Moved dramatically down--Duffy, Sewell, Waddell
Moved dramatically up--Sisler, Redding, Mendez
Moved up and then back down again--Beckley, GVH
These are the guys of whom it makes sense (to me) to ask, especially as we head into the backlog years of the '80s, why did the evaluation change? Are the reasons for that good reasons, or not? Or were we right the first (or in Beckley's and GVH's cases, the second) time?
There are other guys who dropped, of course, such as Browning and Williamson and Ryan and Childs, but my sense is that that is just because we have a vastly larger backlog. I'm not sure the evaluation of these players has really changed, thre's just more competition.
Personally I have the players in question rated as follows:
1. Sisler
2. Waddell
3. Mendez
(gap)
4. Duffy
5. Redding
6. Sewell
(gap)
7. Beckley/GVH interchangeable
This is not to say that these players are better than Minoso, Kiner and Moore, the players who are sprinkled in amidst these guys at the head of the backlog. Those 3 would remain part of the overall analysis. But these 7 are the ones whom we have evaluated very differently at different times. They remain conundrums. If somebody thinks this is wrong, now's the time to say!
I'm amazed. I went from top of consensus to bottom of consensus in 6 years.
Even someone quite knowledgeable about baseball playing history before arriving here (such as yourself if we know each other) probably needs a little time to secure all the judgments involved in voting and relies for a while on the judgments of others.
I always do my test posts on an old game chatter - a good suggestion from someone. At the end of any given Royals chatter you are likely to see some damn graph about Edd Roush's win shares.
Thanks, I knew there must be a better place to experiment than those overworked clinicians struggling with bird flu Eastern Europe.
Now what about those colors? Are the colors random?
"* not eligible {green}for{/green} the HOF" -john murphy #4
(Moore)
(Kiner)
1. Sisler
2. Waddell
3. Mendez
(gap)
(Minoso)
4. Duffy
5. Redding
6. Sewell
(gap)
7. Beckley/GVH interchangeable
I'm going to guess that the 'code' tag highlights certain keywords in computer languages.
for else if then while begin end and or xor nor int double boolNot sure which of those will get highlighted... probably depends on the editor.
blue blue blue 'red red red' blue blue blue"* not eligible {green}for{/green} the HOF" -john murphy #4
I'm going to guess that the 'code' tag highlights certain keywords in computer languages.
It certainly wasn't anything special that I was doing. :-) Weird.
Thereby bumping Pete Browning up into the top 15. Jeff M's consensus score is -15. The electorate average is still -14.5, and everyone else's score moved by miniscule amounts. AJM is now the unique median scorer. If I ever to that voter-to-voter score thing, he'll be included - but there are still finals to grade.
So good, I can't even digest it full 'til the weekend.
. . .
Not sure which of those will get highlighted... probably depends on the editor.
The cool one was the pairs of O'Neill entries in the other thread. The two ' characters marked a "string literal" which got highlighted as red.
I see. People who use {code} rather than {pre}, in whatever style brackets the "editor" recognizes, are posing as contributors of code rather than preformatted text (nor surprise there), and there will be no un/pleasant surprises for me unless I abandon {pre}. The editor, I suppose, is incorporated in the program (blogware?) that manages this part of the thinkfactory website, converting text that we enter in composition windows into code (of another kind) that is transmitted to visitors by http.
Yes, DanG, not danb.
"Browning Williamson" is by far the most fun to say fifteen times real fast.
Yeah, for some reason, computer code is always displayed with a fixed-width font. That happens to also be the key to making our tables line up.
Testing below...
pre-tag:
for else if then while begin end and or xor 'red' bluecode-tag:
for else if then while begin end and or xor 'red' blueblue 'red' case switch static auto const goto return struct break continueblue 'red' do char extern enum signed short void volatile sizeof
default friend inline private public operator mutable template throw using
virtual this register namespace new delete true false explicit catch asm double
(Thanks, Paul, for pointing out my correct name.)
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
That's because it's got smooth character.
You know the HOM has come a long way, baby....And it's got the taste that's right for me!
Welcome to HOMboro country.
You know the HOM has come a long way, baby....And it's got the taste that's right for me!
Welcome to HOMboro country.
Okay, no more for him.
/bartender voice
10 high borderline candidates: Sisler, Duffy, Waddell, Roush, Beckley, Welch, Kiner, Sewell, Fox, Mendez
10 sons of the middle border: Chance, Bresnahan, Dean, Grimes, Joss, Wilson, Rizzuto, Willis, H. Smith, Taylor
5 sons of the low borderline: Traynor, Rice, Wilson, Klein, Lombardi
5 acquired tastes, could be anywhere from high borderline to HoVG depending on your taste: McGraw, Maranville, Bancroft, Gomez, A. Cooper
10 HoVG: Tinker, Evers, Cuyler, Hoyt, Hooper, Youngs, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Lazzeri, S. White
5 HoAVG (Almost Very Good): Pennock, Schalk, Manush, Combs, T. Jackson
5 HoG (Hall of Good--not quite Very Good, not quite Almost Very Good, not a total embarrassment, but Good--i.e. HoGs): Kell, R. Ferrell, Dandridge, J. Johnson, L. Day
10 HoYGBK (You Gotta Be Kidding): Cummings, McCarthy, Bender, H. Wright, L. Waner, Hafey, Haines, Marquard, G. Kelly, Lindstrom
You know the HOM has come a long way, baby....And it's got the taste that's right for me!
Welcome to HOMboro country.
I guess we can infer from that post that Eric's voice sounds like Krusty the Clown's. ;-)
If no objection to Haines:
Haines 108 with 210 wins in 3208.2 IP, peak ERA+ 149-45-31-26-25-21-20 (7 years ? 120)
Bender 111 with 212 wins in 3017 IP, peak ERA+ 150-46-46-45-27-25 (6 years >120 though with a better median it's true)
But considering Bender came along 15 years before Haines and Haines threw most of his innings in the '20s, the workload difference is monumental.
So if Haines isn't a HoG, I can't see how Bender is.
Caveat: There are plenty of borderline calls there, especially as I was trying to create groups in base 5.
I've got full flavor with just half the tar!
[Cough!]
Anyway, they are both so far down the charts, it really makes no difference.
Baseball naval gazing.
As for pitchers, Rube Marquard falls below even Bender and Haines in my estimation.
The contexts are totally off, of course, but Marquard is a poor man's Jaime Moyer.
"Hey, I didn't make sunnyday's list! That must mean I'm a HOMer!"
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
nicely done, easy to read or to skim.
a few spaces are missing.
you need to insert the entire separator " , " after "Musial" and it may be useful at the beginning of each line of names, too (eg, before "Stan"
At least McCarthy had some pioneer credentials (not that they are necessarily factual, of course) to go with his playing career. Highpockets Kelly doesn't.
I'll go with Kelly as the worst player and Marquard as the worst pitcher.
My worst pitchers are Chesbro, Marquard, and Haines.
Worst pitchers: Marquard and Haines with Pennock third, but there is quite a gap between Haines and Marquard. Bender is 4th worst.
Overall (this is MLers, btw, not including NeLers)
1. McCarthy--the worst of the worst
2. Marquard
3. Haines
4. Lindstrom
5. L. Waner
6. Kelly
7. T. Jackson
8. Hafey
9. Pennock
10. Bender
Not talking about the curveball.
Pitching wise, I'd go with Bender or Marquard. I like Happy Jack a smidge more, because at least he had the one monster year. Haines at least has a decent sized career advantage on them. Forced to choose I take Marquard.
Addie Joss would round out my top 5 for the worst MLB pitchers in the Hall.
Great player. Tiny, tragic career.
If Ray Chapman played for 2 more seasons, he'd also be enshrined.
If Ray Chapman played for The Giants in the 20's, or the Cards in the 30's, he'd be in.
Lindstrom was a damn good player until he moved to center and "decided" to be out of baseball by the age of 30. With a long enough career at the "hot corner," he would be on my ballot.
I'll take him over Kelly any day. He still stinks as a HOF choice, though.
To save Joe the time I'll say it: "How could they leave off Deacon White!?!"
Let the ommission complaining begin!
If you or Joe hadn't said it, I would have. Do they still have an open "Pioneer" category for the HoF? White has a case to be elected as a pioneer, in addition to his overwhelming case for being elected as a player.
Caruthers, Bob
Dahlen, Bill
Ferrell, Wes
Glasscock, Jack
Gordon, Joe
Groh, Heinie
Hack, Stan
Magee, Sherry
Stovey, Harry
<u>MLB HOM-ers not in the Final 200</u>
Barnes, Ross
Bennett, Charlie
Gore, George
Hines, Paul
Jackson, Joe*
McVey, Cal
Pearce, Dickey
Pike, Lip
Richardson, Hardy
Sheckard, Jimmy
Start, Joe
Sutton, Ezra
White, Deacon
I don't know if NeL HOM-not-HOF-ers are eligible for this list so I left them off.
From 1913 to 1922 (ignoring the FL), Schalk led the major leagues in WS for a catcher twice, finished 2nd 5 times, and 3rd once. Using a strict "all-star" cutoff as being among the top 2 at a position, Schalk was a 7-time all star, as well as having enough career to set the then-record for games caught. While not quite a HoFer, I hope that those who think that Schalk was one of the worst HoF selections can at least see that, in context, he does have a case.
Considering the high amount of HOVG filler in the final 200 -- no offense Grandma! -- I'm surprised they snubbed so many HOM-ers. Its basically pre-1890 guys, Jimmy Sheckard and the ineligilbe Joe Jackson. There are some pre-1890 guys on the list, though (Stovey, Browning, Glasscock).
Hey, I didn't vote for the real Grandma either, David. :-)
For the 1880s, they included Browning and Mullane in addition to some of our electees, so it sure looks to me like they had some sort of statistical filter going that effectively screened out all players from the first decade and half of professional baseball.
>HOM-ers in the VC Final 200
Caruthers, Bob
Dahlen, Bill
Ferrell, Wes
Glasscock, Jack
Gordon, Joe
Groh, Heinie
Hack, Stan
Magee, Sherry
Stovey, Harry
Aside from the VC's unwillingness to reach back into the 19th century too much/too far, you'd have to admit they did a fair job of getting the rest of the obvious candidates. Only Jimmy Sheckard is missing among HoMers who did NOT play in the 19C. While I was a big FOBC, I am shocked that they got him. Do you think they looked at our plaque room?
From the list above, Dahlen would be my fave. I mean, they're not gonna get (that is, elect) more than one of these guys (if any), are they? Wasn't it Santo and Oliva and ??? that were at the top of the ballot last time? But just as clearly, every one of these guys would be a better choice than about 2/3 of the VC choices over the years. Still in all likelihood they're not gonna elect any of 'em. Not with the current system.
I'd like to see them drop the number on thie final ballot to 10 or even 5. If there are only 5 candidates, perhaps that electing body could be convinced to research all 5. With 20 guys on the ballot there is just too much to pick from. Also, I don't think people are going to vote for more than a couple candidates at the most so a large ballot makes an election less likely.
See blogspot.firejoemorgan.com for more details. Funniest baseball blog on the net. [Not to say that we're not funny, but....]
As for pioneers, no pioneer players are being considered for the contributors election. It says "managers, executives and umpires".
It makes me slightly hopeful that somewhere down the line there will be a scholarly analysis done of the 1860's-1870's players, since (like the Negro leaguers before them) they're not being given even token representation in the current elections. They're outside the consideration set of either one of the VC elections.
HOFers who were power hitters voting for power hitters more then
HOF who were contect hitter voting for contact hitters
HOF who were great fielders voting for fielding more the hitting
which players are not voting for players they never saw
or only voting for players in the same leauge (players they saw regeruly or who espeachley beat up on their team)
or who's voting for teammates and who's snubbing them
Ooooh... a new color! 'Comments' are orange!
blue'red'
#orange
/* test */
// test
blue /* test */ blueProposed executive summary for Bill Dahlen.
Bill Dahlen - a top-notch defensive shortstop in the class of Phil Rizzuto and Ozzie Smith, he also hit like Alan Trammell. A starting shortstop for 18 years, he played on 4 pennant winners. John McGraw traded for him before the 1904 season, and the Giants topped the NL 1904-05, replacing Pittsburgh as the best team in the National League.
Gil Hodges 52 65.0%
Ron Santo 52 65.0%
Tony Oliva 45 56.3%
Jim Kaat 43 53.8%
Joe Torre 36 45.0%
Maury Wills 26 32.5%
Vada Pinson 23 28.8%
Luis Tiant 20 25.0%
Roger Maris 19 23.8%
Marty Marion 16 20.0%
Ken Boyer 15 18.8%
Joe Gordon 14 17.5%
Carl Mays 12 15.0%
Minnie Minoso 12 15.0%
Dick Allen 12 15.0%
Curt Flood 10 12.5%
Wes Ferrell 9 11.3%
Mickey Lolich 9 11.3%
Don Newcombe 8 10.0%
Sparky Lyle 7 8.8%
Elston Howard 6 7.5%
Bobby Bonds 4 5.0%
Rocky Colavito 4 5.0%
Thurman Munson 2 2.5%
Smoky Joe Wood 2 2.5%
My guess is they looked at NHBA. James had Caruthers ranked in his top 100. They have guys that James ranked but we have passed on like Virgil Trucks and Dummy Hoy. James also ignored anything that happened before 1876, thus no Ross Barnes or Joe Start in his rankings.
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