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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Sunday, July 09, 20061980 Results: The Hall of Merit Class of 1980? Kaline, Santo, and Maricha!In his first year of eligibility, “Mr. Tiger” Al Kaline won the top spot for induction fairly easily with an impressive 92% of all possible points. Cubbie fan favorite Ron Santo also scored very favorably in also his first year on the ballot with 88% of all possible points. Another newbie, San Francisco ace Juan Marichal, nabbed the third and final spot for induction this year with 68% of all possible points. Rounding out the top-ten were: José Méndez, Joe Sewell, Minnie Minoso, Ralph Kiner, Jake Beckley, Hugh Duffy, and Rube Waddell. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Al Kaline 1147 51 35 6 4 1 2 1 1 1 2 n/e Ron Santo 1095 52 12 26 3 3 1 1 1 2 2 1 3 n/e Juan Marichal 852 49 1 4 17 9 1 3 4 1 1 3 2 2 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 3 José Méndez 385 27 3 1 7 1 2 1 3 2 1 1 1 1 3 5 6 Joe Sewell 319 24 1 1 4 1 3 3 1 2 2 5 1 6 5 Ralph Kiner 318 27 1 2 1 1 1 2 5 1 2 2 1 3 5 7 4 Minnie Minoso 308 27 2 4 1 4 2 3 2 3 2 4 8 7 Jake Beckley 269 20 3 2 3 1 2 3 3 2 1 9 9 Hugh Duffy 265 21 1 1 4 2 3 2 2 4 1 1 10 15 Rube Waddell 260 21 2 1 1 3 2 1 2 1 2 1 1 1 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 14 Billy Pierce 254 21 1 2 1 2 1 4 4 2 1 3 12 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 252 18 3 4 2 2 1 1 1 1 2 1 13 12 Dobie Moore 235 18 2 2 2 4 1 2 1 3 1 14 17 Charley Jones 235 16 1 1 2 1 3 4 1 1 1 1 15 10 Nellie Fox 232 17 1 1 1 4 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 16 13 Cupid Childs 225 20 3 3 1 2 1 2 1 5 2 17 11 Ken Boyer 218 19 1 2 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 3 18 16 George Van Haltren 204 18 1 2 1 1 2 4 2 2 1 1 1 19 27 Charlie Keller 189 14 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 3 1 20 20 Pete Browning 188 13 3 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 21 24 Mickey Welch 186 11 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 22 21 Quincy Trouppe 172 16 1 4 2 1 1 2 1 3 1 23 23 Bob Johnson 169 13 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 24 22 Gavy Cravath 162 13 1 1 3 1 3 1 1 2 25 26 Roger Bresnahan 152 13 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 26 25 Tommy Leach 150 12 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 27T n/e Norm Cash 147 12 2 2 1 2 1 1 3 27T 19 Edd Roush 147 12 3 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 29 n/e Orlando Cepeda 143 14 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 2 3 30 18 Bucky Walters 142 14 1 1 1 1 2 3 2 1 2 31 30 Burleigh Grimes 117 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 32 33 Wally Schang 98 8 1 1 1 3 1 1 33 28 Bob Elliott 96 8 1 1 2 2 1 1 34 29 Larry Doyle 95 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 35 32 Dizzy Dean 82 8 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 36 34 John McGraw 69 5 1 1 1 1 1 37 31 Alejandro Oms 65 5 1 1 1 1 1 38 41 Pie Traynor 58 4 1 1 1 1 39 38 Ben Taylor 56 5 1 2 1 1 40 37 Ernie Lombardi 55 5 1 1 1 1 1 41 44T Vic Willis 54 6 1 1 2 2 42 35 Tommy Bridges 51 6 2 1 2 1 43 36 Frank Howard 45 5 1 2 1 1 44 44T Carl Mays 45 4 2 1 1 45 42 Sam Rice 43 4 2 1 1 46 46 Vern Stephens 41 4 1 1 1 1 47 48 Bill Monroe 40 4 1 1 1 1 48 39 Elston Howard 39 6 1 1 4 49 52T Dutch Leonard 39 4 1 1 1 1 50 40 Jimmy Ryan 39 3 1 1 1 51 50 Ed Williamson 38 4 1 2 1 52 49 Addie Joss 38 3 1 1 1 53 43 Luis Aparicio 36 4 2 2 54 51 Rabbit Maranville 34 2 1 1 55 52T Lefty Gomez 33 3 1 1 1 56 47 Phil Rizzuto 31 3 1 2 57 54 Chuck Klein 31 2 1 1 58T 57T Frank Chance 24 2 1 1 58T n/e Al Rosen 24 2 2 60T 55 Dave Bancroft 22 2 1 1 60T 59 Ed Cicotte 22 2 1 1 60T 57T Dizzy Trout 22 2 1 1 63 56 Tony Mullane 17 2 1 1 64 63 Jack Quinn 17 1 1 65 60 Fielder Jones 16 1 1 66T 68T Sam Leever 13 1 1 66T 65 Red Schoendienst 13 1 1 68 66T Artie Wilson 11 1 1 69 71T Fred Dunlap 10 1 1 70T 61 Wilbur Cooper 9 1 1 70T 66T Dom DiMaggio 9 1 1 70T 64 Herman Long 9 1 1 70T 74 Bobby Veach 9 1 1 74T 75T Hack Wilson 8 1 1 74T 68T Gil Hodges 8 1 1 76 71T Wally Berger 7 1 1 77 80T Hilton Smith 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Buzz Arlett(71T), Bus Clarkson(68T), Luke Easter(62), Bobby Estalella(77T), Bill Mazeroski(77T), Billy Nash(80T), Virgil Trucks(77T), Sol White(75T). Ballots Cast: 52
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: July 09, 2006 at 08:35 PM | 116 comment(s)
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Ron Santo is now our first living HoMer/non-HOFer.
HOF-not-HOM through 1980
1. Bancroft, Dave
2. Beckley, Jake
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Bresnahan, Roger
6 Chance, Frank
7 Chesbro, Jack
8 Combs, Earle
9 Cuyler, Kiki
10 Dean, Dizzy
11 Duffy, Hugh
12 Evers, Johnny
13 Gomez, Lefty
14 Grimes, Burleigh
15 Hafey, Chick
16 Haines, Jesse
17 Hooper, Harry
18 Hoyt, Waite
19 Johnson, Judy
20 Joss, Addie
21 Kelly, George
22 Kiner, Ralph
23 Klein, Chuck
24 Lindstrom, Freddie
25 Manush, Heinie
26 Maranville, Rabbit
27 Marquard, Rube
28 McCarthy, Tommy
29 McGraw, John
30 Pennock, Herb
31 Rice, Sam
32 Roush, Edd
33 Schalk, Ray
34 Sewell, Joe
35 Tinker, Joe
36 Traynor, Pie
37 Waddell, Rube
38 Waner, Lloyd
39 Welch, Mickey
40 Wilson, Hack
41 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
1 Ashburn, Richie
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Brown, Ray
6 Brown, Willard
7 Bunning, Jim
8 Caruthers, Bob
9 Dahlen, Bill
10 Davis, George
11 Doby, Larry
12 Doerr, Bobby
13 Drysdale, Don
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Foster, Rube
16 Foster, Willie
17 Glasscock, Jack
18 Gordon, Joe
19 Gore, George
20 Grant, Frank
21 Groh, Heinie
22 Hack, Stan
23 Hill, Pete
24 Hines, Paul
25 Jackson, Joe*
26 Johnson, Home Run
27 Magee, Sherry
28 Marichal, Juan
29 McPhee, Bid
30 McVey, Cal
31 Mize, Johnny
32 Newhouser, Hal
33 Pearce, Dickey
34 Pike, Lip
35 Richardson, Hardy
36 Reese, Pee Wee
37 Rogan, Bullet Joe
38 Santo, Ron
39 Santop, Louis
40 Sheckard, Jimmy
41 Slaughter, Enos
42 Start, Joe
43 Stearnes, Turkey
44 Stovey, Harry
45 Suttles, Mule
46 Sutton, Ezra
47 Torriente, Cristobal
48 Vaughan, Arky
49 Wells, Willie
50 White, Deacon
51 Wilhelm, Hoyt
52 Williams, Smokey Joe
53 Wilson, Jud
* not eligible for the HOF
Yep. I posted the thread thinking nobody was going to submit one at the last second, but... :-)
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
Juan Marichal, , George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
Mean consensus score +0.5.
The last postive mean score was in 1974.
Esteban Rivera: +9
Chris Fluit: +7
Ardo: +7
Howie Menckel +7:
TomH: +6
Andrew M. +6
Pedro Feliz N.: +6
Tiboreau: +6
dan b: +6
Thane of Bagarth: +6
...
OCF: +4
...
Ken Fischer: +2
John Murphy: +2 (medians)
...
Chris Cobb: -0
...
Patrick W: -1
...
Eric C: -6
Rick A: -6
rawagman: -6
Joe Dimino: -7
Rusty Priske: -7
B. Williams: -8
rico vanian: -8
yest: -14
karlmagnus: -14
Vaux: -14
Sisler goes and so does my average consensus score
Who's going to write him a letter?
A positive vote with all of those negative votes below me?! If it happened before, it was a long time ago.
Of course, I may be experiencing the Wrigley Field effect, where I'm staying relatively the same, but the new voters are creating the image that I'm becoming more in sync with the consensus.
Joe is working on it, thanks to Howie informing him as to the proper to send him the e-mail.
I really hope he gets it. Besides the induction itself, he may be happy to note the percentage of votes he received, which is on the high side.
The three bottom guys on the consensus scores had Kaline-Santo-Marichal as 1-12-14, 7-12-6, and 1-14-off. B. Williams got his -8 by leaving Kaline off; rico vanian had the big thee at 5-2-7; rawagman and Rusty Priske left of Marichal.
item the second: there were some big drops and big jumps in the tens and twentys: Pierce, Waddell and Keller all had big gains while Redding took another big hit, as did Fox and Boyer
item the third: is Orlando Cepeda the latest victim of being excessively punished for having won a debatable MVP?
item the fourth: I knew I wasn't going to challenge yest or karl for the bottom, but I figured being the only one to vote Marichal first would keep me further from the top than it did.
The funny thing is, Billy Pierce was only one spot off my ballot.
Yep. I posted the thread thinking nobody was going to submit one at the last second, but... :-)
Sorry about that, John. I'll try not to do that again. . . . ;-)
These guys are so bunched up and that you never know what will happen when the elect-me votes are made scarce by newbies or how many guys got bumped to "16th or 17th" for a week due to a strong new class.
'debatable' isn't so bad. It might be debatable, but its certainly not an outrageous mistake or anything -- there's been several of those. Who else has been excessively punished?
I think there may have been initial caution with Cash/Cepeda. I was really expecting them to be higher. Perhaps they'll pull a Minoso and bounce back up after the first week.
(for newcomers, this list basically shows which players have gotten many votes for a long time without getting elected - plus which electees struggled the most before getting in)
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 21560.5
BECKLEY 20582
DUFFY 20205.5
Griffith 17924
BROWNING 17628.5
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 15706
WADDELL 15397
WELCH 14601
Sisler 13875
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
RYAN 11506.5
Bennett 11503
Rixey 10789
SEWELL 10708
Caruthers 10704
TLEACH 10308
BRESNAHAN 10242
MENDEZ 10107
REDDING 10059
CJONES 9985
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
Mackey 8930
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 7563, Roush 7323, Doyle 6700, Monroe 6138, Cravath 5709, Grimes 5335, Williamson 5086, Kiner 5006, Schang 4798, McGraw 4529, Walters 4481)
almost
(Oms 3601, Minoso 3549, Joss 3163, McCormick 3148X, Willis 3043)
(anyone have a tally on Pierce?)
I fear he probably doesn't have Cicotte, Williamson, and Willis all that close to his ballot, however. Got to keep my consensus scores low somehow.
Because of "renovations" by the BTF big wigs, many links were made inactive. However, if you use that special link at the top of the link page (the Hall of Merit Archives link), they will be reactivated. But if you can't find the particular link that you were looking for, just let me know and I will personally reactivate it, Chris.
Gosh, I hope not! ;)
Devin's Devils
1. Leach CF
2. Childs 1B
3. Minoso LF
4. Moore SS
5. Van Haltren RF
6. Sewell 3B
7. Trouppe C
8. Monroe 2B
9. Redding P
RP/UT Mendez
The Rejects
1. Bell 3B
2. Sisler 1B
3. Medwick LF
4. Thompson RF
5. Jennings SS
6. Ashburn 2B
7. Carey CF
8. Mackey C
9. R. Foster P
RP Griffith
The Rejects have more pop in the middle of the lineup, but I think I've got a slightly deeper one. Who knows how their defense would shake out - I think Bell would make a decent 3Bman (great on bunts), Ashburn at second? Got me. Personally, I think all the factors would make the teams fairly even, but given the nature of the exercise, I expect you'd disagree with me.
The Rejects
1. Bell 3B
2. Sisler 1B - 2B
3. Medwick LF - RF
4. Thompson RF - 1B
5. Jennings SS
6. Ashburn 2B - LF
7. Carey CF
8. Mackey C
9. R. Foster P
I bet Sisler would play 2nd, he did play there a couple times despite being LH thrower. Thompson to 1b, and Ashburn's golden glove to LF or CF.
Bell being a former pitcher should have the arm for 3b, Medwick possibly too.
Joe is working on it, thanks to Howie informing him as to the proper to send him the e-mail.
Will we get to see it before it goes out?
Also, do I understand that we are going to e-mail him? Even with its prevalence, e-mail is still an informal means of communication. Is there a better way to present this to him?
I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a famous ballplayer. I get an e-mail saying a group of guys elected me to an alternative Hall of Fame and I think "Gee it's nice to have fans." That's if I don't hit the delete key. I'm afraid its significance might be lost on him.
If we e-mail him, I think it should be a brief note with a link to our plaque pages, and then we should follow up with something more formal that indicates the amount of work, knowledge and scrutiny that goes into the project. Remember, although all of us have been taking this project very seriously for a long time, we would probably be viewed as a club full of hobbyists by a major league ballplayer/broadcaster, unless we do some 'splaining.
We could explain in the e-mail, but one of the things we all know about e-mail is that the longer it gets, the less likely it will be read (and the lower the comprehension by the reader).
The significance of the HOM is determined by the esteem it's held by the baseball community (current and former players, all fans, etc.), not those who choose to vote. The fact that Santo likely has never heard of the HOM has more bearing on the significance of the accomplishment--moreso than any amount of explaining, no matter how well-written or well-intentioned.
What gives? How does Bill Terry walz in, and Norm Cash finish tied for 27th?
The emphasis on brevity is indeed important.
It's not a two-line effort by any means, but it isn't a 10-page printout, either.
Basically 6-8 paragraphs, a list of the top 15 vote-getters, link to the site, and a copy of the plaque. Seems to strike the right balance...
Name Votes PCT
Al Kaline 340 88.31
Duke Snider 333 86.49
Don Drysdale 238 61.82
Gil Hodges 230 59.74
Hoyt Wilhelm 209 54.29
Jim Bunning 177 45.97
Red Schoendienst 164 42.60
Nellie Fox 161 41.82
Maury Wills 146 37.92
Richie Ashburn 134 34.81
Luis Aparicio 124 32.21
Roger Maris 111 28.83
Mickey Vernon 96 24.94
Harvey Kuenn 83 21.56
Lew Burdette 66 17.14
Don Newcombe 59 15.32
Ted Kluszewski 50 12.99
Orlando Cepeda 48 12.47
Alvin Dark 43 11.17
Bill Mazeroski 33 8.57
Don Larsen 31 8.05
Elston Howard 29 7.53
Roy Face 21 5.45
Ron Santo 15 3.90
Norm Cash 6 1.56
Matty Alou 5 1.30
Felipe Alou 3 0.78
Mel Stottlemyre 3 0.78
Steve Blass 2 0.52
Jim Hickman 1 0.26
Sonny Jackson 1 0.26
Don McMahon 1 0.26
Slaughter and Doby were no longer eligible.
Marichal was not eligible until 1981 due to a token appearance his last season.
Email may be informal, but only when it's used that way. It is much more immediate than snail mail, for one. I'm not going to give them a ton of information that they won't read, essentially there's a sentence at the top that reads: "The Hall of Merit is an alternative to the Hall of Fame, as voted on by about 50 statistically-oriented baseball analysts nationwide at http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit."
If they want more information they can ask, but I don't think it's right to get into everything we do in an initial email.
We are mentioning that he finished ahead of Marichal (which would certainly catch one's eye), and mentioning that he finished ahead of 59 Hall of Famers, mentioning about a dozen prominent ones by name.
As for what they do with it, I don't care all that much. I'm sure Santo will appreciate reading it - anyone would like to read something that says they were great. Maybe the PR department will mention it if they mount a Hall of Fame campaign for Santo with the new Vets Committee at some point, that would be pretty cool.
I do think it's something worth letting him know about.
I'd post the letter here, but I really don't want to have to wade through all of the comments from every passer-by before sending it off . . . if you do want to see it and offer some feedback before I send it (probably tomorrow morning), send me an email to John and I and we'll email it to you . . .
Cash and Cepeda are not dead or buried - Bobby Doerr and Joe Gordon both debuted on about a dozen ballots, but ascended through the backlog to eventual induction. "Stormin' Norman" and the "Baby Bull" can do likewise.
Why aren't you so keen on Charley Jones anymore? I'm a friend of his too. Kiner with the bat, better fielder, longer career (if you give him blacklist credit).
Waddell! I wonder how many will check their old published reasons for leaving him off the ballot.
Who's going to write him a letter?
Joe is working on it, thanks to Howie informing him as to the proper to send him the e-mail.
I really hope he gets it. Besides the induction itself, he may be happy to note the percentage of votes he received, which is on the high side.
I hope he learns that he is the first. That may be the only significant thing that can be appreciated easily from a distance.
I share Jeff M's reaction to the email medium here. Hard to believe.
JoeD
Cash's placement boggles my mind. The guy was a very good hitter (OBP .045 above league, SLG .098 above), had some big years, and was apparently a wizard in the field, despite his lack of Gold Glove hardware. He was a key player on a WS Champion too.
What gives? How does Bill Terry walz in, and Norm Cash finish tied for 27th?
I doubt that Norm Cash is generally considered a full-time player, and that cannot be questioned for Bill Terry (albeit in a short career). I haven't read his own thread, but several notes in the ballot thread mention Cash platooning.
Norm Cash ABs vs. LHPs:
1960 30
1961 134
1962 133
1963 120
1964 123
1965 120
1966 193
1967 145
1968 74
1969 129
1970 52
1971 120
1972 74
1973 36
His lifetime splits:
vs. RHP 284/392/518
vs. LHP 227/307/384
He didn't sit out every game vs. LHP, he sat out some, like many other LH hitters, even very good ones. He was still getting 550-680 PA a year in his prime, 450-550 outside his prime.
And his replacement when being platooned isn't a scrub, it's a lefty-basher. It's not like that for a guy that misses the same number of PA due to being injured every year, like a Frank Chance or a Larry Walker or a John McGraw.
I still see him as better than Terry.
***************
I just went through every ballot and couldn't find the one that didn't have Kaline on it. Is there a typo in the final results?
But it's ridiculous to say Cash didn't have a peak, which is what I think you are implying - he was 4th in an MVP vote and deserved to be that high. He was typically in the 135-150 OPS+ range with great defense in his prime.
B_Williams thought that Kaline's 3-year consecutive peak wasn't high enough. We had a debate on page 2 of the 1980 discussion to try and change his mind, but he stood his ground.
Terry's not a bad candidate. His career was shorter than Cash's, yes, but he nicks him in OWP (.674 to .671) and has a higher WS letter grade (A+ to A-). Plus, that was 38 years ago. Terry would have been inducted anyways with all the borderline guys we've inducted since then. (Averill, Ruffing, Sisler, etc.) I've seen his name pop up on PHOM lists in the past 10-20 years.
In fact, its compensation for the "Terry Effect" that has people voting so conservatively on new eligibles these days. (Or Ashburn, Or Faber, Or Bunning, Or whoever your favorite 1st ballot borderline inductee is).
As has been said, Doerr, Gordon & Minoso all had disappointing first ballot totals and are all either in or near in. First ballot disappointments can be fixed with debate, first ballot inductees cannot.
60 1971 C. Griffith
53 1960 H. Jennings
44 1979 G. Sisler
43 1940 L. Pike
34 1931 D. Pearce
32 1930 B. Caruthers
30 1968 E. Rixey
28 1929 S. Thompson
27 1975 B. Mackey
26 1973 C. Bell
23 1921 C. Bennett
21 1976 J. Gordon
21 1964 W. Ferrell
19 1976 W. Brown
18 1957 J. Beckwith
18 1926 F. Grant
18 1916 H. Stovey
17 1914 C. McVey
16 1972 B. Doerr
16 1961 E. Averill
And I do think that being platooned is a big deal. To a lesser extent there is an aesthetic argument, "We are about to elect someone to the HOM that had to be platooned?". However, being platooned did cut down on his value from season to season which really cuts into one's peak. His rate stats may hvae been good (135-150 OPS+ is what Joe mentions) but they came largely against a selected group of pitchers and didn't come in a ton of PA's per season. This is the biggest reason why rate stats need to be taken with a rock of salt.
I much prefer Cepeda, who I have in my top 25-30 or so, Cash is around #50.
That worked. Thanks, John.
Waited the longest for election: Griffith, Jennings, Sisler (and Pike, too)
Borderliners borderline 1st ballot winners: Ashburn, Faber, Bunning (and Terry, too)
I would take Terry over Pike, but Griffith over Ashburn, and Jennings and Sisler easily over Faber and Bunning. Or Griffith over Faber and Bunning, Sisler over Terry, and Jennings over Ashburn. Or how about Rixey and Faber? In hindsight I like Rixey better. Or...well, you get the idea.
It appears that you understand how it works around here perfectly, Paul. ;-)
I didn't ballot any one of Drysdale, Marichal or Bunning (or Pierce for that matter).
I haven't examined this year's candidates, but Gibson should be an easy #1. Based on how he comps to my current #1 backog pitcher (Rube Waddell) I should be able to fix any potential problems in my rankings.
We also mention when Williams and Jenkins are eligible.
Two words: mistake selection.
Hmmm, that's kind of presumptive. But then I don't know yet that he's as open-and-shut as maybe some others do.
Is Terry in your PHOM?
I disagree with your take on Terry and Cash. As I mentioned above I see Terry as clearly ahead. My system even gives Terry a similar peak and a much better prime than Sisler with more career as well. Terry may have gone in fast, but it was a weak year and I think that he deserved election. Ditto Faber and vance, two other guys that get a bad rap.
But as Sunny said on the currently volatile 1980 discussion thread, our mistakes are small potatoes compared to the HOF's.
Hmmm, that's kind of presumptive. But then I don't know yet that he's as open-and-shut as maybe some others do.
By OPS+, games, win shares, whatever, he's pretty close to Roberto Clemente without as much fielding. He obviously isn't 1st ballot (largely due to who else is on the ballot) but it isn't much of a stretch to see him getting elected very shortly thereafter.
I think Joe only wants non-HOFers to receive the e-mails. The guys already in the HOF like Williams probably wouldn't be too impressed by our elections.
Joe D defended Quinn pretty extensively last week. If I were a more staunch career voter, I might consider getting on board.
Fielder Jones had considerable discussion over many years, and maybe he'll creep back on to some ballots in 10 years.
I have three guys in my top 40 that received zero votes last week: Larry Jackson, Don Newcombe, and Luke Easter. Easter had backing until gadfly left us. I miss his gutsy ratings, even when I strongly disagreed with them.
Take it up with the commish: Joe had Easter 4th on his 1979 ballot but off of his 1980 ballot.
And guys who have waited half their lives for HOF induction will be?
Santo would certainly be more appreciative than Al Kaline would be, that's for sure.
Well its possible that someone would be appreciative, but I wouldn't assume that any specific player would automatically care what a group of random fans on a website think, even educated fans. I'm not discarding the possibility either - its hard to predict how someone might react.
On the other hand...
When I was a kid, I bought a book that listed the address of every former and current baseball player. It was published in the mid 1970's, and I got it in the late 70's. My brother and I used it to write to players asking for their autographs. Some send one back, some didn't.
The most memorable thing I received was a letter from the widow of Red Faber, who had died in between when the book was published and when I bought the book. She was happy that people still remembered her husband and cared enough to want his autograph, and said he would have been happy to receive the request. I suppose things have changed a lot, in that this was before much of the nostaglia boom for baseball.
If anyone has contact information for relatives of HOM who have passed away, they might appreciate hearing that their relatives are remembered in this positive way.
Lost cause, eh?
I don't necessarily disagree, Dizzy.
If anyone has contact information for relatives of HOM who have passed away, they might appreciate hearing that their relatives are remembered in this positive way.
I would have no problem with that.
Yes, Mr. Paine.
I dunno if we had the same book or not, but I had a similar book. A Beckett publication if I remember correctly. I wrote to a bunch of guys, virtually all wrote back. The oddest thing I received was from bobby doerr. He sent back religious stuff, including an untorn ticket stub for heaven (that had religious stuff written on it, of course).
Lost cause, eh?
We had this discussion in the late 50's. It's against The Constitution to drop a player just because he's a lost cause.
Joe's dropping of him must have been due to new analysis and the accompanying revelations.
Yes, Mr. Paine.
One of my favorites.
I reevaluated all of my hitters - he just missed, finished 16th. Was originally 15th, then I remembered Wally Schang. He's temporarily out, but will be back on shortly.
There were plenty of big jumps/drops Sewell from 15 to 3, Jake Beckley from 2 to 8, Schang from 17 to 12, Childs from 18 to 13. Tony Lazzeri stormed from no-man's land to #18. Easter was just one of those revised.
>Yes, Mr. Paine.
I don't get it, but you can just call me the straight man.
I guess this is just another lost cause, Mr. Paine. All you people don't know about lost causes. Mr. Paine does. He said once they were the only causes worth fighting for. And he fought for them once, for the only reason any man ever fights for them; because of just one plain simple rule: 'Love thy neighbor.'... And you know that you fight for the lost causes harder than for any other. Yes, you even die for them, like a man we both knew, Mr. Paine. . . .
You think I'm licked. You all think I'm licked. Well, I'm not licked. And I'm going to stay right here and fight for this lost cause. Even if the room gets filled with lies like these, and the Taylors and all their armies come marching into this place. . . .
You think I'm licked. You all think I'm licked. Well, I'm not licked. And I'm going to stay right here and fight for this lost cause. Even if the room gets filled with lies like these, and the Taylors and all their armies come marching into this place. . . .
I did, however, see the Family Guy episode that played off of that movie. The Simpsons as version as well.
I'm partial to "you can't handle the truth."
Or how about this: "Five minutes to Wopner."
Or "I'll be back." Now there's eloquence.
"History is bunk."
And finally, good one, Sean (#82).
Let me know when you guys need another straight line.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
:-)
I should point out that TCM is one of my favorite spots on the remote to visit. Not that I think films today don't compare to movies from the past, mind you.
Or how about this: "Five minutes to Wopner."
Is that a slur against Italians, Marc? ;-)
Heh.
"There's a couple of parks that ball woudn't have been hit out of"
"Oh yeah; name me one"
"Yellowstone"
"I say **ck you, Jaboo; I do it myself"
A matter that shouldn't be confused with great or famous one-liners.
--
JoeD
Who cares if he was platooned a little? He still had more PA than Terry, even adjusting for season length and was better during them. Not to mention the fielding.
He didn't sit out every game vs. LHP, he sat out some, like many other LH hitters, even very good ones. He was still getting 550-680 PA a year in his prime, 450-550 outside his prime.
And his replacement when being platooned isn't a scrub, it's a lefty-basher. It's not like that for a guy that misses the same number of PA due to being injured every year, like a Frank Chance or a Larry Walker or a John McGraw.
I meant the remark as wise counsel, based on HOM analysis rather than baseball analysis, why Norm Cash is barely viable, what his supporters should address if they would be persuasive.
Re the baseball analysis, I hope you will reconsider, Joe. You are right that playing against most pitchers, skipping some one can't hit so well, isn't the same as playing against everyone when healthy, skipping everyone when ill or injured. But the first guy deserves extra demerit not extra credit.
ah, its my youth and my unwillingness to watch my father's old black and white movies. Gotcha.
I did, however, see the Family Guy episode that played off of that movie. The Simpsons as version as well.
Sean Gilman
Ouch. Talk about timelining. . . .
Well, my father's movies plus mine number zero.
--
neither David Levine nor Dan Levine nor Dan Leavitt nor David Levine:
Another thing they may be interested in is the list of other Cubs elected and the year in which they were elected. We should send a followup e-mail when Billy Williams gets in and we probably should have sent an e-mail when Banks was elected if we had foresight. Bill Dahlen was a Cubbie also and he's probably the 2nd most glaring HoM in and HoF out. Stan Hack also should be of interest to the Cubs.
Dahlen may be second to White, Hack may be of interest to Cubs, etc. Many things are reasonable for the HOM project to undertake in communication with clubs, certainly including a letter to every club after the current project is complete --all elections complete or that plus upgrade to the "plaque room" if that will happen before moving on. Further, I would write to everyone elected (thus writing again to Santo and any other recipients of news in progress) when the project is complete. But that's another matter.
By the way, I have received a letter from someone prominent in major league baseball soliciting analysis, or summary of analysis, of one major playing career in comparison to others, certainly with the purpose of using it to argue more effectively for his election to the Hall of Fame. I don't know that any club does this, or has any interest in taking it up, for anyone so old as Stan Hack.
However, if I've got one guy like Cash who gets 500 PA because he was platooned, and another like Chance who gets 500 PA because he was hurt, assuming equal production, I favor the Cash player, because the player that picks up the slack for him is better than the one that picks up the slack for Chance.
Also, congratulations to Rube Waddell who cracked his first top ten since the 1939 election.
Well, possibly but not necessarily. Still, I don't think that it should matter what the fill-ins were doing only what the playe rin question did. The only way I can see giving credit for a good backup is if that backup significantly cut into the time of the player in question and didn't just fill in because that player had a deficiency. I am thinking Yogi Berra/Elston Howard or Selkirk/Heinrich/Keller and not Cash/whoever platooned with him or Eric Young/Dave Roberts (the platoon nughtmare from hell for my brother). The former usually is expressed by a player getting a late start to a career, not fewer at bats per year.
Indeed. The scene is great not just because of the speech, but because of Stewart's amazing performance. I can't read it without hearing the rasp in his voice or seeing the image of him collapsing to the Senate floor in a flurry of papers.
Both Stewart and Capra are a lot darker than their reputations make them appear.
Totally agree. This movie and their other famous collaboration, It's a Wonderful Life, are typically celebrated as happy-ending, life-affirming, feel-good films, and of course to a great extent they are. But what makes their happy endings so powerful is how genuinely dark and hard-edged the crises are along the way; both movies deal very candidly with true human evil and abject hopelessness. Not your typical popcorn fare by a long shot.
Stewart's reputation as the folksy kind-old-dad kind of guy, a role he obviously played a lot, really does overlook how brilliantly he played characters hanging onto hope and sanity by a thread, and how convincingly he played tough guys in various Westerns. He was a hell of a good actor, deserving of more than the stuttering impersonation he normally gets.
Yes, I was aware. I am hopeful Cepeda will make the same climb. The post was intended to cause Cepeda supporters to react indignantly and prove me wrong.
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