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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, August 07, 20061982 Results: Bad Henry and Robby Are the Newest Hall of Merit Right Fielders!In his first year of eligibility, legendary slugger Hank Aaron became the Hall of Merit’s twelfth unanimous selection (in chronological order, the others were Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, and Willie Mays). He also becomes the new record holder for points with 1,344, eclipsing by ten the 1934 record held by Ty Cobb for almost 50 “years” (both 1934 and now 1982 share the record for most voters with 56). Triple crown winner Frank Robinson, another new candidate, becomes one of only 17 HoM inductees to find himself unanimously placed in an “elect me” spot with his 96% of all possible points. Chicago Cubs star Billy Williams had a very strong showing in also his first time on the ballot with 53% of all possible points. He looks poised for eventual induction fairly soon, possibly in ‘83. Rounding out the top-ten were: José Méndez, Bill Freehan (strong newbie showing), Joe Sewell, Ralph Kiner, Billy Pierce, Minnie Minoso (a little bit of a fall from ‘81), and Rube Waddell. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Hank Aaron 1344 56 56 2 n/e Frank Robinson 1288 56 56 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 n/e Billy Williams 719 48 22 6 3 1 3 2 2 1 2 2 4 4 3 José Méndez 422 30 5 7 2 4 2 3 1 1 4 1 5 n/e Bill Freehan 373 29 5 2 3 6 1 5 2 1 2 2 6 4 Joe Sewell 356 27 2 2 4 2 4 2 3 2 3 2 1 7 6 Ralph Kiner 323 27 2 3 1 2 4 6 1 3 2 3 8 7 Billy Pierce 310 26 2 2 3 2 3 3 2 1 3 3 1 1 9 5 Minnie Minoso 308 27 1 3 3 1 3 2 3 1 4 2 2 2 10 11 Rube Waddell 291 24 2 4 3 2 1 1 3 1 2 1 2 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 9 Cupid Childs 279 23 1 5 3 2 1 1 2 2 1 3 2 12 10 Hugh Duffy 254 21 2 1 1 2 4 1 3 2 1 2 2 13 14 Dobie Moore 247 22 2 1 1 1 4 1 1 2 1 1 1 6 14 12 Jake Beckley 247 20 3 2 1 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 2 15 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 241 19 2 1 2 3 3 2 1 1 1 3 16 13 Ken Boyer 239 22 1 1 1 3 3 1 1 2 2 2 3 2 17 15 Nellie Fox 225 18 1 1 4 1 2 1 4 3 1 18 17 Charley Jones 210 15 1 3 1 2 2 1 3 1 1 19 16 George Van Haltren 200 18 1 2 2 1 2 3 2 3 2 20 18 Charlie Keller 192 16 4 1 3 1 1 3 1 1 1 21 24 Bob Johnson 174 15 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 3 1 22 21 Quincy Trouppe 172 15 1 1 1 4 2 3 1 1 1 23 19 Bucky Walters 167 16 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 1 24 22 Pete Browning 164 12 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 25 20 Edd Roush 156 13 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 2 1 26 26 Mickey Welch 149 11 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 27 23 Gavy Cravath 147 13 1 2 1 1 2 2 3 1 28 28 Orlando Cepeda 135 13 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 29 25 Tommy Leach 132 12 1 1 3 1 1 1 4 30 27 Roger Bresnahan 130 12 2 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 31 29 Norm Cash 130 11 2 1 3 1 2 1 1 32 30 Burleigh Grimes 111 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 33 32T Bob Elliott 86 9 1 1 2 1 2 2 34 35 Larry Doyle 83 6 1 1 2 1 1 35 32T Alejandro Oms 82 7 1 1 2 1 2 36 34 Wally Schang 68 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 37 31 Dizzy Dean 67 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 38 40 Tommy Bridges 64 8 3 3 1 1 39 36 John McGraw 58 4 2 1 1 40 37 Pie Traynor 57 5 1 2 1 1 41 38 Vic Willis 50 6 1 1 2 2 42 39 Ben Taylor 50 4 1 1 1 1 43 43 Jimmy Ryan 46 5 1 1 1 1 1 44 42 Phil Rizzuto 41 4 1 1 2 45 48 Bill Monroe 39 4 1 1 2 46T 44 Ernie Lombardi 37 3 1 1 1 46T 52 Dizzy Trout 37 3 1 1 1 48 50T Ed Williamson 36 4 1 1 1 1 49 59 Vern Stephens 35 4 1 1 2 50T 45 Rabbit Maranville 35 3 1 1 1 50T 41 Carl Mays 35 3 1 1 1 52T 54T Addie Joss 34 3 1 1 1 52T 47 Sam Rice 34 3 1 1 1 54T 53 Lefty Gomez 31 3 1 1 1 54T 54T Dutch Leonard 31 3 1 1 1 56 50T Luis Aparicio 30 3 1 1 1 57 56 Chuck Klein 30 2 2 58 46 Frank Howard 27 3 1 2 59 61 Ed Cicotte 24 2 1 1 60 49 Elston Howard 23 3 1 1 1 61 60 Frank Chance 23 2 1 1 62 57 Al Rosen 21 2 1 1 63 58 Dave Bancroft 19 2 1 1 64 63 Tony Mullane 17 2 1 1 65T n/e Willie Davis 16 1 1 65T 65 Fielder Jones 16 1 1 67T 70T Artie Wilson 15 1 1 67T 67T Jack Quinn 15 1 1 69 69 Urban Shocker 14 1 1 70T 74 Fred Dunlap 11 1 1 70T 70T Sam Leever 11 1 1 72T 66 Wilbur Cooper 10 1 1 72T 75T Don Newcombe 10 1 1 72T 75T Bobby Veach 10 1 1 75T 64 Dom DiMaggio 9 1 1 75T n/e Tony Oliva 9 1 1 77T 73 George J. Burns 8 1 1 77T 78T Hack Wilson 8 1 1 77T 78T Herman Long 8 1 1 80 62 Gil Hodges 7 1 1 81 81 Sol White 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Dick Bartell(75T), Wally Berger(82), Harlond Clift(78T), Billy Nash(83T), Johnny Pesky(70T), Vada Pinson(67T), Cecil Travis(83T). Ballots Cast: 56
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: August 07, 2006 at 01:18 AM | 43 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:01 AM (#2130751)HOF-not-HOM through 1982
1. Bancroft, Dave
2. Beckley, Jake
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Bresnahan, Roger
6 Chance, Frank
7 Chesbro, Jack
8 Combs, Earle
9 Cuyler, Kiki
10 Dean, Dizzy
11 Duffy, Hugh
12 Evers, Johnny
13 Gomez, Lefty
14 Grimes, Burleigh
15 Hafey, Chick
16 Haines, Jesse
17 Hooper, Harry
18 Hoyt, Waite
19 Jackson, Travis
20 Johnson, Judy
21 Joss, Addie
22 Kelly, George
23 Kiner, Ralph
24 Klein, Chuck
25 Lindstrom, Freddie
26 Manush, Heinie
27 Maranville, Rabbit
28 Marquard, Rube
29 McCarthy, Tommy
30 McGraw, John
31 Pennock, Herb
32 Rice, Sam
33 Roush, Edd
34 Schalk, Ray
35 Sewell, Joe
36 Tinker, Joe
37 Traynor, Pie
38 Waddell, Rube
39 Waner, Lloyd
40 Welch, Mickey
41 Wilson, Hack
42 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
1 Ashburn, Richie
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Brown, Ray
6 Brown, Willard
7 Bunning, Jim
8 Caruthers, Bob
9 Dahlen, Bill
10 Davis, George
11 Doby, Larry
12 Doerr, Bobby
13 Drysdale, Don
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Foster, Willie
16 Glasscock, Jack
17 Gordon, Joe
18 Gore, George
19 Grant, Frank
20 Groh, Heinie
21 Hack, Stan
22 Hill, Pete
23 Hines, Paul
24 Jackson, Joe*
25 Johnson, Home Run
26 Killebrew, Harmon
27 Mackey. Biz
28 Magee, Sherry
29 Marichal, Juan
30 McPhee, Bid
31 McVey, Cal
32 Newhouser, Hal
33 Pearce, Dickey
34 Pike, Lip
35 Richardson, Hardy
36 Reese, Pee Wee
37 Rogan, Bullet Joe
38 Santo, Ron
39 Santop, Louis
40 Sheckard, Jimmy
41 Slaughter, Enos
42 Start, Joe
43 Stearnes, Turkey
44 Stovey, Harry
45 Suttles, Mule
46 Sutton, Ezra
47 Torriente, Cristobal
48 Vaughan, Arky
49 Wells, Willie
50 White, Deacon
51 Wilhelm, Hoyt
52 Williams, Smokey Joe
53 Wilson, Jud
* not eligible for the HOF
Got Melky: +13 (2nd year voter)
Juan V: +9 (new voter)
James Newburg: +9
dan b: +7
Tiboreau: +7
Esteban Rivera: +7
Devin McCullen: +7
OCF: +6
Howie Menckel: +6
(and 10 more voters at +6, including Jim Sp)
...
Daryn: +4
sunnyday2: +4 (medians)
...
Joe Dimino: +2
...
fra paolo: 0
John Murphy: 0
Rick A: -1
David Foss: -1
mulder & scully: -1
Patrick W: -2
rico vanian: -4
kalmagnus: -5
Vaux: -5
KJOK: -5
yest: -6
Name Votes PCT
Hank Aaron 406 97.83
Frank Robinson 370 89.16
Juan Marichal 305 73.49
Harmon Killebrew 246 59.28
Hoyt Wilhelm 236 56.87
Don Drysdale 233 56.14
Gil Hodges 205 49.40
Luis Aparicio 174 41.93
Jim Bunning 138 33.25
Red Schoendienst 135 32.53
Nellie Fox 127 30.60
Richie Ashburn 126 30.36
Billy Williams 97 23.37
Maury Wills 91 21.93
Roger Maris 69 16.63
Tony Oliva 63 15.18
Harvey Kuenn 62 14.94
Lew Burdette 43 10.36
Orlando Cepeda 42 10.12
Elston Howard 40 9.64
Don Larsen 32 7.71
Bill Mazeroski 28 6.75
Thurman Munson 26 6.27
Roy Face 22 5.30
Vada Pinson 6 1.45
Tommy Davis 5 1.20
Dave McNally 5 1.20
Lindy McDaniel 3 0.72
Rico Petrocelli 3 0.72
Jim Brewer 2 0.48
Bill Freehan 2 0.48
Leo Cardenas 1 0.24
Claude Osteen 1 0.24
Ashburn's last year eligible for the BBWAA.
The Munson votes must be write-ins.
Glad to see Williams and Freehan did so well.
Overall I don't rate him as highly as Freehan. But at his peak, he was better than Freehan. At his peak, Thurman Munson was better than Carlton Fisk. The two went head-to-head and Munson was better. I don't know if Thurman will even get a vote. But if not, he will be one of the most underrated players in history, short career or not. He had just a tremendous impact. He was a hard-nosed son-of-a-#####. The Yankee powerhouse of today has Thurman Munson as its godfather, IMO.
He also had 5 years between 121 and 141 in OPS+.
He's going to be a tough cookie when it comes time to evaluate him - the peak guys are going to like him a lot if they take the defense into account.
Yes. Even with the new birthday, his first year as a major leaguer came at age 25, putting him 3 or 4 years behind the people he was competing against. He first emerged as a star in Cuba in 1945-46, and IMO deserves major league credit starting in 1947 or '48. With that credit, he's compares favorably with the bottom rung of HoM corner outfielders.
See the Minoso thread.
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
Browning climbs to 4th... Sewell claims 14th... Mendez up 2 spots to 16th.. Redding nudges Bresnahan out of top 20.
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 21998.5
BECKLEY 21117
DUFFY 20772.5
BROWNING 17983.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 16275
WADDELL 15991
WELCH 14910
Sisler 13892
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
RYAN 11609.5
SEWELL 11553
Bennett 11503
MENDEZ 10978
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
TLEACH 10610
REDDING 10601
BRESNAHAN 10528
CJONES 10435
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
Mackey 8930
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 8056, Roush 7662, Doyle 6858, Monroe 6220, Cravath 6030, Kiner 5652, Grimes 5574, Williamson 5162, Schang 4954, Walters 4834, McGraw 4655)
not quite
(Minoso 4229, Oms 3797, Trouppe 3623, Joss 3231, Pierce 3204, Willis 3153, McCormick 3148X, BJohnson 3127, Chance 2792X, Tiernan 2686X)
more recent candidates
(Fox 2633, Elliott 2531, Keller 2317)
RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
4 3 José Méndez 422 30 5 7 2 4 2 3 1 1 4 1
8 7 Billy Pierce 310 26 2 2 3 2 3 3 2 1 3 3 1 1
10 11 Rube Waddell 291 24 2 4 3 2 1 1 3 1 2 1 2 2
15 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 241 19 2 1 2 3 3 2 1 1 1 3
23 19 Bucky Walters 167 16 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 1
26 26 Mickey Welch 149 11 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 1
32 30 Burleigh Grimes 111 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1
37 31 Dizzy Dean 67 6 1 1 1 1 1 1
38 40 Tommy Bridges 64 8 3 3 1 1
41 38 Vic Willis 50 6 1 1 2 2
well, the "rank" is easy to read, lol.
only 4 of the top 20 returnees.
Dead ball: Waddell, Willis
Pre-NeL: Mendez, Redding
Golden age: Grimes, Walters, Dean, Bridges
Post-war: Pierce
What, no golden age NeLers? I don't know that that's a gap, and I don't know that it isn't. The ML golden age (1920-1941) is very well represented. Too bad we can't agree on one, but it seems unlikely that anybody is voting for both Grimes and Dean--anybody?
This era is so extremely well-represented in the HOM that I'm surprised anyone is left in the backlog. I have become very skeptical of anyone left from this era.
I'm close. I have Grimes on ballot and Dean is my #1 off-ballot pitcher.
Glad to see Williams and Freehan did so well.
6. jimd Posted: August 07, 2006 at 09:57 PM (#2130868)
I don't recall it, one way or the other. In general, I think it's a bad practice, but they did it for Clemente, so I guess they're stuck with it.
Actually, Clemente was elected in a special BBWAA poll, like Gehrig before him. After that, they came up with the death rule, granting eligibility in the first election after you've been gone for six months. Munson is the only prominent candidate to date given this early eligibility.
No it wasn't, he had a quick release and was reasonably accurate- and had pitchers who knew how to hold runners- his arm strength was mediocre to below average- lots of guys who'd never dream of running against a stronger armed cather would run on him- and get caught.
That's a net positive for the team of course- but the perception that he had a strong arm is completely false.
During the 70s he certainly was not regarded as a terrific defensive catcher- certainly not as good as Bench or Fisk.
Fisk had 4 season where his OPS+ was greater than Munson's career high of 141, he had an additional 4 seasons where his OPS+ was greater than Munson's second best mark of 128- at his best Munson clearly was not as good as Fisk at his best- at his peak he was rough match for Freehan at his- FRAA is wonky on catchers especially on Munson- isaw him play- a lot he was not a superstar defensive catcher.
I didn't say I would rate Munson ahead of Fisk if they were on the HoM ballot at the same time. What I said was that while both were active, Munson was cumulatively better and peakedly better. AFter Munson was gone, Fisk enhanced his peak and obviously accumed a ton of career. But during that time when they both walked the earth, Munson was more valuable.
Uh, Munson won Gold Gloves in 1973, 74 and 75. Fisk won one in 1972.
Fisk was hurt in 1974 and 1975, but seems awfully hard to believe they thought Fisk was so much better when Munson unseated him for a Gold Glove when both were healthy.
As sunnyday mentioned, when I said, he had a great arm, I mean the whole package, whatever it was release, arm strength - something has to be pretty good to throw out 45%.
You do realize 3 of those 4 years where Fisk beat 141 were in seasons where he had 200-300 PA, right? And a couple of those years in the 130s were when he was old and catching 75-80 games a year, right? It's not the same thing.
Fisk was 117 for his career, Munson 116 (in a much shorter career I realize), I think they are a helluva lot closer in peak terms than you are suggesting.
Pretty sure Darryl Kile got it too.
See post #21, above.
Consensus score calculation will not work correctly unless are ballots on the sheet are fully filled in - do not include partial ballots if you intend to calculate scores.
Why not Dick?
--
My recollection matches sunnyday's, Munson was essentially the catcher who can really hit. (He hit .300 five times, Fisk once, Bench none, in full seasons.)
Jim Sundberg was considered a great fielding catcher, and Bench in that other league.
Jerry Grote twice went to the World Series with low batting averages, and to that I write off the recollection that he was considered a great catcher too.
You're right- brain fart- I was the first and last person to ever confuse Fisk with Sundberg
to me when someone says a catcher has a terrific arm it means the same when they say a pitcher or OF has a terrific arm- he can throw hard-
Munson couldn't- but he was accurate and got rid of the ball as quickly (or more quickly) as anyone. You could say he was good at throwing out runners (he certainly was)- but he did not have a terrific "arm".
Lance Parrish on the otherhand had a terrific arm- but wasn't as good a thrower- took too long to get out of the crouch and throw...
Munson couldn't- but he was accurate and got rid of the ball as quickly (or more quickly) as anyone. You could say he was good at throwing out runners (he certainly was)- but he did not have a terrific "arm".
Does it matter, in the end? Isn't throwing guys out the important thing, no matter how you do it?
I laughed almost as hard on that one as on Boog Alou!
Okay, well, then, we better double check this one ;-)
Munson was just past 32 at the time of his death. Fisk was 6+ months younger and so reached the same age during the 1979-1980 offseason. Comparing their careers at that point (thru 1979):
Fielding:
Munson: 107 WARP rating in 1241.1 AdjG
--Fisk--: 106 WARP rating in 845.8 AdjG
Batting:
Munson: 116 OPS+ in 5903 PA
--Fisk--: 128 OPS+ in 3823 PA
Fisk was clearly the better hitter (more power and walks).
The two appear to be close in fielding, edge to Munson.
Fisk's later start and injuries had significantly reduced his playing time (and wear and tear).
Fisk would then add another 1224.1 AdjG and 6030 PA.
But Munson was famous as the catcher who could hit, because he batted .300 "every year" (4 in 5).
Just like Brian Harper.
I don't know the context is that they translate them to, but Fisk has 504 career HRs. To give some context, Bench has 528, Berra 497, and Piazza 470 (Josh Gibson doesn't have a page). Bonds has 849 and has only 222 more to go to catch the Babe (don't know for sure but Ruth's 78 in 1927 may still be the record).
To me it would be much more fun as a toy if they set the average to be something along the lines of all-time average.
***********
All good on the 'arm' thing JWP - I definitely appreciate the recollections of people who actually saw these guys play. Those of us that have only the record to go by have to guess on things like 'arm' as opposed to breaking it down by release, quickness and arm strength. Anything that gives us a better feel for the type of player is great!
where you would prefer the baseline set when you arrived?
Why, how common, what happened?
Was he fetid before he was feted?
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