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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, September 05, 20061984 Results: Second Time’s the Trick for Robinson and Torre As This Year’s Hall of Merit Picks!In only his second year of eligibility, third base fielding legend Brooks Robinson garnered 68% of all possible points to claim a spot in the Hall of Merit. Another sophomore candidate, multipositional standout Joe Torre, received 60% of all possible points for induction. Rounding out the top-ten were: José Méndez, Bill Freehan, Joe Sewell, Ralph Kiner, Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Rube Waddell, and Cupid Childs. Breaking the record set in 1982 by one, 85 candidates found themselves on a ballot. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 3 Brooks Robinson 898 49 19 4 3 4 2 5 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 4 Joe Torre 791 45 8 10 4 6 2 1 3 2 1 2 1 2 2 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 5 José Méndez 521 32 6 2 5 4 2 1 3 1 2 2 2 2 4 6 Bill Freehan 475 31 1 4 2 5 3 2 2 3 3 3 1 2 5 7 Joe Sewell 403 28 2 2 2 4 2 4 3 3 1 2 2 1 6 8 Ralph Kiner 376 27 3 3 1 2 4 2 1 1 3 1 1 5 7 10 Minnie Minoso 369 32 4 2 3 3 4 1 2 5 3 1 4 8 11 Billy Pierce 367 27 2 2 2 2 1 4 3 2 3 3 1 2 9 9 Rube Waddell 366 25 5 5 1 2 1 1 4 1 1 2 1 1 10 12 Cupid Childs 312 24 1 4 2 2 2 2 3 2 1 3 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 15 Dobie Moore 295 21 1 2 4 2 2 1 2 1 2 1 3 12 13 Jake Beckley 288 20 2 1 1 3 3 1 3 1 1 3 1 13 16 Cannonball Dick Redding 282 20 2 1 1 1 2 4 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 14 20 Ken Boyer 265 23 1 1 4 2 2 2 1 3 2 2 1 2 15 17 Nellie Fox 263 20 4 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 16 19 Jimmy Wynn 262 22 1 2 1 1 2 1 5 1 1 1 2 3 1 17 14 Hugh Duffy 257 19 2 2 3 2 3 1 1 1 4 18 18 Charley Jones 248 16 1 3 1 1 3 1 2 2 1 1 19 24 Quincy Trouppe 231 19 1 1 2 2 2 1 3 1 2 2 1 1 20 23 Pete Browning 198 12 1 2 3 1 1 2 1 1 21 21 Charlie Keller 196 14 3 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 22 22 George Van Haltren 195 16 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 3 2 23 28 Edd Roush 187 16 1 1 2 2 1 2 3 2 2 24 25 Bob Johnson 177 14 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 4 1 25 27 Bucky Walters 167 14 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 3 1 1 26 26 Mickey Welch 165 10 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 27 29 Gavy Cravath 151 13 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 3 28 32 Roger Bresnahan 146 12 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 1 1 29 30 Burleigh Grimes 146 11 1 1 3 1 1 3 1 30T 31 Norm Cash 130 10 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 30T 33 Alejandro Oms 130 10 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 32 34 Tommy Leach 129 12 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 33 36 Orlando Cepeda 110 11 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 4 34 35 Larry Doyle 93 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 35 40 Wally Schang 85 7 1 1 1 1 2 1 36 43 Tommy Bridges 75 8 1 1 2 1 2 1 37 41 Bob Elliott 71 7 1 1 2 2 1 38 42 Ben Taylor 67 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 39 38 John McGraw 67 4 1 1 1 1 40 39 Pie Traynor 60 4 1 1 1 1 41 47 Phil Rizzuto 58 5 1 2 2 42 49 Vic Willis 57 6 1 1 1 3 43 37 Dizzy Dean 57 5 1 1 1 1 1 44 45 Jimmy Ryan 50 5 1 2 2 45 60 Dutch Leonard 47 4 1 1 1 1 46 51 Sam Rice 46 4 1 1 1 1 47 61 Elston Howard 44 6 1 2 3 48 46 Addie Joss 43 4 1 1 1 1 49T 48 Ernie Lombardi 41 3 1 1 1 49T 58 Rabbit Maranville 41 3 1 1 1 51 52 Vern Stephens 40 4 2 2 52T 57 Bill Monroe 39 4 1 1 1 1 52T 50 Ed Williamson 39 4 1 1 1 1 54 53 Carl Mays 38 3 1 1 1 55 54T Dizzy Trout 37 3 1 1 1 56 62 Frank Howard 35 4 1 1 2 57 44 Chuck Klein 33 2 1 1 58 63 Dave Bancroft 30 3 1 1 1 59 64 Luis Aparicio 27 3 1 1 1 60 59 Ed Cicotte 27 2 1 1 61T 54T Lefty Gomez 25 2 1 1 61T 67T Tony Oliva 25 2 1 1 63 56 Al Rosen 24 3 1 1 1 64 65T Frank Chance 24 2 1 1 65 72 Tony Mullane 21 2 1 1 66T 67T Artie Wilson 17 1 1 66T 65T Fielder Jones 17 1 1 68 69 Jack Quinn 16 1 1 69 70 Urban Shocker 15 1 1 70 71 Sam Leever 12 1 1 71T 73T Fred Dunlap 11 1 1 71T 75T Don Newcombe 11 1 1 73T 73T Wilbur Cooper 10 1 1 73T 75T Bobby Veach 10 1 1 75T 79 Gil Hodges 9 1 1 75T n/e Virgil Trucks 9 1 1 77T 75T George J. Burns 8 1 1 77T 75T Hack Wilson 8 1 1 77T 80 Herman Long 8 1 1 77T n/e Sol White 8 1 1 81T n/e Dom DiMaggio 7 1 1 81T n/e Jim Fregosi 7 1 1 81T n/e Bob Friend 7 1 1 81T n/e Bill Wright 7 1 1 85 n/e Bus Clarkson 6 1 1 Ballots Cast: 55 John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: September 05, 2006 at 05:39 PM | 35 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#2168527)Mendez, Freehan, and Sewell look good for '85, but wil Brock have a say in that?
HOF-not-HOM through 1984
1 Aparicio, Luis
2. Bancroft, Dave
3. Beckley, Jake
4 Bender, Chief
5 Bottomley, Jim
6 Bresnahan, Roger
7 Chance, Frank
8 Chesbro, Jack
9 Combs, Earle
10 Cuyler, Kiki
11 Dean, Dizzy
12 Duffy, Hugh
13 Evers, Johnny
14 Ferrell, Rick
15 Gomez, Lefty
16 Grimes, Burleigh
17 Hafey, Chick
18 Haines, Jesse
19 Hooper, Harry
20 Hoyt, Waite
21 Jackson, Travis
22 Johnson, Judy
23 Joss, Addie
24 Kell, George
25 Kelly, George
26 Kiner, Ralph
27 Klein, Chuck
28 Lindstrom, Freddie
29 Manush, Heinie
30 Maranville, Rabbit
31 Marquard, Rube
32 McCarthy, Tommy
33 McGraw, John
34 Pennock, Herb
35 Rice, Sam
36 Roush, Edd
37 Schalk, Ray
38 Sewell, Joe
39 Tinker, Joe
40 Traynor, Pie
41 Waddell, Rube
42 Waner, Lloyd
43 Welch, Mickey
44 Wilson, Hack
45 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
1 Allen, Dick
2 Ashburn, Richie
3 Barnes, Ross
4 Beckwith, John
5 Bennett, Charlie
6 Brown, Ray
7 Brown, Willard
8 Bunning, Jim
9 Caruthers, Bob
10 Dahlen, Bill
11 Davis, George
12 Doby, Larry
13 Doerr, Bobby
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Foster, Willie
16 Glasscock, Jack
17 Gordon, Joe
18 Gore, George
19 Grant, Frank
20 Groh, Heinie
21 Hack, Stan
22 Hill, Pete
23 Hines, Paul
24 Jackson, Joe*
25 Johnson, Home Run
26 Mackey. Biz
27 Magee, Sherry
28 McPhee, Bid
29 McVey, Cal
30 Newhouser, Hal
31 Pearce, Dickey
32 Pike, Lip
33 Richardson, Hardy
34 Rogan, Bullet Joe
35 Santo, Ron
36 Santop, Louis
37 Sheckard, Jimmy
38 Slaughter, Enos
39 Start, Joe
40 Stearnes, Turkey
41 Stovey, Harry
42 Suttles, Mule
43 Sutton, Ezra
44 Torre, Joe
45 Torriente, Cristobal
46 Vaughan, Arky
47 Wells, Willie
48 White, Deacon
49 Wilhelm, Hoyt
50 Williams, Billy
51 Williams, Smokey Joe
52 Wilson, Jud
* not eligible for the HOF
Got Melky: +2
Devin McCullen: 0
TomH: -3
Pedro Feliz N: -3
Ardo: -4
Juan V: -4
Howie Menckel: -4
Trevor P: -4
...
Chris Cobb: -6
...
OCF: -6
...
Jim Sp: -9 (median)
...
Joe Dimino: -11
...
John Murphy: -14
...
mulder & scully: -19
fra paolo: -19
Mark Donelson: -20
Jeff M: -20
rico vanian: -20
EricC: -21
KJOK: -24
yest: -24
karlmagnus: -25
Vaux: -27
The only recent voter not to cast a ballot this time was B. Williams doubled to catcher.
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, , Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
He was in the top-ten only a few "years" ago, Eric.
Name Votes PCT
Luis Aparicio 341 84.62
Harmon Killebrew 335 83.13
Don Drysdale 316 78.41
Hoyt Wilhelm 290 71.96
Nellie Fox 246 61.04
Billy Williams 202 50.12
Jim Bunning 201 49.88
Orlando Cepeda 124 30.77
Tony Oliva 124 30.77
Roger Maris 107 26.55
Harvey Kuenn 106 26.30
Maury Wills 104 25.81
Lew Burdette 97 24.07
Bill Mazeroski 74 18.36
Roy Face 65 16.13
Elston Howard 45 11.17
Joe Torre 45 11.17
Thurman Munson 29 7.20
Don Larsen 25 6.20
Wilbur Wood 14 3.47
Jim Fregosi 4 0.99
Jim Bouton 3 0.74
Davey Johnson 3 0.74
Mickey Stanley 2 0.50
Bob Bailey 1 0.25
Nelson Briles 1 0.25
Clay Carroll 1 0.25
Last year was the first year of the 5% rule.
Dick Allen has been banished from the BBWAA ballot due to that.
Schoendienst was no longer eligible.
Beckley picks up 93 pts on GVH; still trails by 701.5, or roughly 8 more 'vote years.' Can Beckley avoid getting elected long enough to 'win'? ;)
Sewell and Mendez, ranked 13-14, move up to 12-13 next year and then may 'retire.'
Jones and Leach pass Rixey and Caruthers; Bresnahan sandwiches in between the hurlers.
Minoso grabs 25th among active-vote players from McGraw, but two spots may open up next 'year.'
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 22370.5
BECKLEY 21669
DUFFY 21273.5
BROWNING 18355.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 16860
WADDELL 16682
WELCH 15232
Sisler 13892
Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
SEWELL 12310
MENDEZ 11934
RYAN 11702.5
Bennett 11503
REDDING 11117
CJONES 10893
TLEACH 10832
Rixey 10789
BRESNAHAN 10782
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
Mackey 8930
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 8594, Roush 7986, Doyle 7036, Kiner 6362, Cravath 6318, Monroe 6286, Grimes 5841, Williamson 5237, Walters 5143, Schang 5093, Minoso 4897)
not quite
(McGraw 4783, Trouppe 4025, Oms 4021, Pierce 3853, BJohnson 3470, Joss 3317, Willis 3248, McCormick 3148X, Fox 3116, Chance 2792X, Keller 2706, Tiernan 2686X, Elliott 2654)
INNER CIRCLE, BABY!
100.0 - Cy Young (1917)
100.0 - Honus Wagner (1923)
100.0 - Walter Johnson (1933)
100.0 - Babe Ruth (1941)
100.0 - Lou Gehrig (1944)
100.0 - Lefty Grove (1947)
100.0 - Joe DiMaggio (1957)
100.0 - Ted Williams (1966)
100.0 - Stan Musial (1969)
100.0 - Mickey Mantle (1974)
100.0 - Willie Mays (1979)
100.0 - Hank Aaron (1982)
NO-BRAINERS (>95)
99.8 - Sam Crawford (1924)
99.7 - Dan Brouthers (1902)
99.5 - Jimmie Foxx (1951)
99.5 - Warren Spahn (1971)
99.4 - Pete Alexander (1936)
99.4 - Josh Gibson (1952)
99.3 - Ty Cobb (1934)
99.2 - Oscar Charleston (1943)
98.9 - Kid Nichols (1911)
98.8 - Nap Lajoie (1922)
98.7 - Bob Gibson (1981)
98.4 - Ed Delahanty (1909)
98.4 - Arky Vaughan (1954)
98.3 - Roy Campanella (1963)
97.9 - Charlie Gehringer (1948)
97.9 - Bob Feller (1962)
97.8 - Eddie Collins (1935)
96.9 - Turkey Stearnes (1946)
96.6 - Satchel Paige (1959)
96.5 - Christy Mathewson (1922)
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby (1941)
95.8 - Frank Robinson (1982)
95.7 - George Davis (1915)
95.7 - Carl Hubbell (1949)
95.4 - Eddie Mathews (1974)
95.3 - Paul Waner (1950)
95.3 - Mel Ott (1952)
EASY CHOICES (>85)
94.9 - Jesse Burkett (1912)
94.8 - Smokey Joe Williams (1936)
94.8 - Johnny Mize (1959)
94.7 - Robin Roberts (1972)
94.7 - Ernie Banks (1977)
94.6 - Duke Snider (1970)
94.5 - Yogi Berra (1969)
94.4 - Deacon White (1898)
94.0 - Paul Hines (1898)
94.0 - Jim O'Rourke (1899)
94.0 - Jackie Robinson (1962)
93.7 - Al Simmons (1946)
93.2 - Roger Connor (1903)
93.1 - Roberto Clemente (1978)
92.1 - Gabby Hartnett (1947)
92.0 - Louis Santop (1932)
91.9 - Pop Lloyd (1935)
91.9 - Al Kaline (1980)
91.7 - Luke Appling (1956)
91.5 - Bill Dickey (1953)
90.6 - Harry Heilmann (1937)
90.3 - Buck Leonard (1955)
90.0 - John Clarkson (1900)
89.1 - Billy Hamilton (1907)
89.1 - Hank Greenberg (1953)
88.9 - Bill Dahlen (1915)
88.3 - Mickey Cochrane (1943)
88.2 - Cristobal Torriente (1937)
87.7 - Ron Santo (1980)
87.7 - Harmon Killebrew (1981)
87.2 - Joe Cronin (1951)
86.7 - Frankie Frisch (1944)
85.2 - Cap Anson* (1903)
85.2 - Fred Clarke (1917)
* Six voters boycotted Anson in 1903.
SOMEWHAT DEBATABLE (>70)
84.0 - King Kelly (1899)
83.5 - Ray Brown (1955)
82.9 - Martin Dihigo (1950)
82.6 - Frank Baker (1928)
82.4 - Jack Glasscock (1904)
82.2 - Eddie Plank (1924)
82.0 - Tris Speaker (1934)
81.5 - Goose Goslin (1945)
79.9 - Bullet Rogan (1940)
79.5 - George Gore (1898)
79.1 - Whitey Ford (1973)
78.6 - Hal Newhouser (1960)
78.4 - Willie Wells (1954)
78.2 - Tim Keefe (1901)
76.9 - Zack Wheat (1933)
76.6 - Jud Wilson (1948)
76.2 - George Wright (1901)
75.6 - Ezra Sutton (1908)
75.5 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1978)
74.7 - Buck Ewing (1902)
74.5 - Bid McPhee (1913)
74.4 - Ed Walsh (1920)
74.4 - Joe Jackson (1927)
73.9 - Pud Galvin (1910)
73.5 - John Ward (1900)
73.5 - Cal McVey (1914)
73.4 - Al Spalding (1906)
73.3 - Willie Keeler (1919)
72.5 - Joe Start (1912)
71.7 - Charley Radbourn (1905)
71.3 - Pee Wee Reese (1964)
70.7 - Jimmy Collins (1921)
SPLIT DECISIONS (>50)
69.8 - Amos Rusie (1904)
69.2 - Elmer Flick (1918)
68.9 - Dick Allen (1983)
68.4 - Ross Barnes (1898)
68.3 - Juan Marichal (1980)
68.1 - Joe Kelley (1919)
<font color=red>68.0 - Brooks Robinson (1984)</font>
67.3 - Mule Suttles (1956)
67.1 - Hardy Richardson (1905)
67.1 - Grant Johnson (1925)
66.8 - Mordecai Brown (1925)
66.8 - Ted Lyons (1949)
65.8 - Billy Williams (1983)
65.0 - Bill Foster (1945)
64.9 - Heinie Groh (1938)
63.2 - Harry Stovey (1916)
62.4 - Stan Coveleski (1938)
62.1 - Larry Doby (1965)
61.6 - Jimmy Sheckard (1930)
61.3 - Frank Grant (1926)
61.3 - Monte Irvin (1963)
61.0 - Bobby Wallace (1929)
60.9 - Charlie Bennett (1921)
60.9 - Enos Slaughter (1965)
60.7 - Joe McGinnity (1928)
60.2 - Sherry Magee (1926)
60.0 - Pete Hill (1927)
59.9 - Billy Herman (1958)
<font color=red>59.9 - Joe Torre (1984)</font>
58.0 - John Beckwith (1957)
56.6 - Bob Caruthers (1930)
56.5 - Dazzy Vance (1942)
54.9 - Don Drysdale (1975)
54.6 - Sam Thompson (1929)
54.3 - Sandy Koufax (1972)
53.0 - Dickey Pearce (1931)
VERY SPLIT DECISIONS (<50)
49.1 - Early Wynn (1970)
48.6 - Rube Foster (1932)
48.6 - Stan Hack (1958)
48.5 - Lou Boudreau (1958)
46.3 - Red Faber (1939)
45.6 - Max Carey (1939)
44.9 - Bill Terry (1942)
44.7 - Joe Medwick (1967)
41.8 - Joe Gordon (1976)
41.5 - Bob Lemon (1967)
41.3 - Wes Ferrell (1964)
40.5 - Lip Pike (1940)
40.4 - Earl Averill (1961)
38.8 - Red Ruffing (1966)
38.7 - Eppa Rixey (1968)
38.2 - George Sisler (1979)
38.1 - Richie Ashburn (1968)
37.9 - Willard Brown (1976)
37.7 - Hughie Jennings (1960)
37.7 - Jim Bunning (1977)
36.8 - Cool Papa Bell (1973)
35.4 - Biz Mackey (1975)
32.8 - Clark Griffith (1971)
32.8 - Bobby Doerr (1972)
Thanks for the laugh B Williams! Man, that is funny!
He went in the same year as Cobb and Eddie Collins who went in the following year obviously took some of his votes but Tris is a true inner circle guy if ever there was one. The vagaries of the whole HoM process.
Brooksie and Joe may be "split decisions" but they are worthy HoMers for sure.
That's why vote percentage has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Both Lloyd and Collins garnered a higher election %-age than Speaker even though Tris beat them both in their first year of eligibility. The list certainly requires interpretation, but its still a fun thing to look at.
Last year was the first year of the 5% rule.
Dick Allen has been banished from the BBWAA ballot due to that.
Actually, 1979 was the first year of the 5% rule, instituted as a reaction to Milt Pappas' complaints about being left off the ballot by the screening committee. Milt was among the rule's first victims, along with Boyer, Flood, Haddix and McLain. Santo was knocked out the next year, which explains his absence from the 1984 BBWAA results. Many of these were reinstated in 1985 (but not Pappas).
Thanks for the laugh B Williams! Man, that is funny!
Geez, I didn't realize I was the only person who takes the last week of August off, gets back up to speed on Labor Day Tuesday, and then gets around to the important stuff like the HoM on Wednesday.
Oh no. There's gotta be a few years that were just passed on completely. 1924 appears to be one. Someone here might be tracking the 'worst classes'.
I'm pretty sure that we have had electons where no votes were given to a new candidate, Juan. Can't remember when, though.
The last time was 1976, the class headed by Allison and Roseboro.
The next group. the Split Decisions, no, because ironically the two guys at the very very bottom of the group--Koufax and Pearce--are, for me, are the two best players in the whole group. Go figure.
Fun list.
I take defense into account, but since it's less quantifiable than offense, I take it into account less, and in a different way. Good defense helps good hitters more than bad hitters for me, because it makes a complete player, and bad hitters aren't complete players anyway. But a good hitter who plays merely decent defense can be a complete player, because he plugs a lineup spot, especially if it's a normally light-hitting one. I do, therefore, take position into account, but since position is now at best jointly-determined between player and organization, and in the past was completely determined by organization, though based, obviously, on the player's skillset, it is hard to decide exactly how or how much. Say it's 2019, and I'm trying to figure out whether to vote for Derek Jeter. Now, his hitting probably will make him a HOMer, but is he a better one because he played SS? He'd be more valuable to the team as an outfielder, because his defensive contribution would be better. So why should he get a boost for playing SS badly? If he had come up in the '80s, or '70s, or '60s, or earlier, he'd have been made a CF or at least a 3B before he reached the major leagues, and if Joe DiMaggio had come up in the '90s, he'd have been left at SS no matter how bad he was. That's just how it is now, but the fact that defensive position deployment changes through time and doesn't necessarily help the team instead of hurting it makes accounting for particular position over and above how well a player played whatever position he did play seem untenable.
But the real problem with my voting, as I can see, is that there seems to me no reason to displace players who already occupied a particular ranking on my ballot with players whose value was sufficiently similar as to be indistinguishable in my eyes. This leads to odd situations like Elliot at #20 and Robinson at #27. I feel like players who have been in my top 20 or so, particularly, have "earned" that ranking and shouldn't be moved down just because a new player has become elligible. That, in any case, is my interpretation of the HOM's wise injunction against the practice of timelining. Could I have just jammed in Joe Torre, Billy Williams, and Dick Allen and relegated Jimmy Ryan, Charlie Jones, and George Van Haltren to non-ballot status? Sure I could have. But that would be timelining, wouldn't it? If those players were worthy ten "years" ago, why aren't they worthy now? Unless someone can talk me out of this, or I talk myself out of it, then I suppose my consensus score is going to keep dropping.
If that's silly, though, I'd love to hear why, and I don't mean that snarkilly at all; I want to be counselled.
I think you're judging all players on RCAR when RCAP gives more information. Someone must play SS. If you have a guy who can play an acceptable SS and hit like Jeter, you keep him there and get another bat who can play in the outfield.
You take this position to avoid timelining, but if you are still making the decision about the relative rankings of two players based on the fact that one was already there and so he has priority, then you are simply reverse timelining, which is no more defensible than timelining.
The only way out of this problem is to find reasonable ways to make distinctions betwen similar candidates.
But it seems to me that if you don't see a difference between Bob Elliott and Brooks Robinson, you aren't looking hard enough.
Second, the issue isn't whether a player chose his own position or had it chosen for him. The issue is whether the player played that position well, contributing to his team and helping them win games and pennants. Nobody's saying that you need to have all-glove, no-hit players on your ballot. If that were the case, we'd all be voting for Bill Mazeroski. But none of us are. We ARE saying that you need to give consideration to these other positions. A team can't win without somebody playing every position. And the best players at each position should be given due consideration. Now, we all disagree as to what constitutes "best." If you prefer a well-rounded player who combines offense and defense, that's fine. Vote for that kind of player. There are plenty of them around: Bill Freehan at catcher, Ken Boyer at third... But a ballot that concentrates exclusively on first basemen and outfielders while ignoring the contributions of players at other positions is a faulty ballot.
RCAP depends on people valuing fielding correctly and not putting Mark Belanger at SS over someone who hit 40 OPS+ points higher. As we know, baseball execs aren't always rational and so RCAP sometimes merely reflects their irrationality.
With the splintered backlog, there has been a fear of a 'surprise' first ballot inductee. Someone like Faber or Ashburn. While those guys *may* have ended up being deserving in the long run, it certainly was alarming that they flew into the HOM with little resistance and perhaps not enough discussion. Its the fear of this that is perhaps causing players to be cautious with borderline newbies. If the older comp is an undersupported teddy bear (in my case Cravath or Doyle), there is not as much harm done -- (though as I think that out loud, that certainly borders on strategic voting).
One way to compensate for this are to periodically look back and reevaluate guys just one generation back. Were we too tough on Kiner, Pierce & Minoso? They were the new candidates of 20 years ago who may have been underrated by the same teddy-bear-clutching that we are discussing right now. There are no more new candidates from those eras in the pipeline so we should have an idea of how well represented they are (Howie posts the lists and the 50s are now done except for McCovey's rookie year). I've recently bumped up Pierce because I felt we were too tough on him (and I've always liked Kiner).
Another way to compensate is to re-evaluate old-timers as they percolate up to near the top of the backlog. Especially once they reach the top five. For example, Sewell is knocking on the door of the HOM. Are we sure he's better than guys from other eras, or are we just so used to voting for him? Same goes for Mendez.
Another thing to remember is that expansion brings more slots. We should have *more* HOM-ers from the expansion era than other eras. It sounds a bit strange because the HOF has been doing the opposite trend.
Agree with Karl on this one. This could be a red herring since there's enough question about enough of Brooks's record that a resonable person could see enough similarity to rate them similarly. To put it differently, the difference bewteen Jud Wilson and Brooks Robinson is much bigger than the one between Elliot and Brooks Robinson. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the rating (obviously my ballot says I don't), but it's not like the difference is so big that I'm slack jawed over it.
I think the same post has also shown another similarity in my conceptual thinking with Karl, if not in execution:
RCAP depends on people valuing fielding correctly and not putting Mark Belanger at SS over someone who hit 40 OPS+ points higher. As we know, baseball execs aren't always rational and so RCAP sometimes merely reflects their irrationality.
This is a backdoor explanation, in a way, for why there will be more 3Bs and catchers and corners from the NL of 1960-1990 than SS. All the bats moved off the position because the CW of the time was that hitters just couldn't hack it at short. Which was pap of course. Who's to say Mike Schmidt couldn't have played short? He was rangy, smart, athletic, speedy for his size, and had quick reactions. Gee sounds like Ripken or A-Rod to me. Relying solely on RCAP to evaluate players within an era could lead to conclusions like that Dave Concepcion is a pretty good candidate. Or Pie Traynor. Or that Joe Sewell or Brooks Robinson are more impressive candidates than they actually are. Going back to Concepcion, if he's the best SS between Banks and Smith, what does that say about NL SS for twenty years? More than it does about Concepcion....
Dr. Chaleeko wrote:
Agree with Karl on this one. This could be a red herring since there's enough question about enough of Brooks's record that a resonable person could see enough similarity to rate them similarly.
You both assume that I meant that Brooks is obviously better :-) . Karlmagnus's rating of the pair actually supports my contention that they are not especially similar players.
It is surely possible for a reasonable person to rate them similarly (see the ballot of Murphy, John, for an easy-to-find example), but as a very large majority of reasonable people seem them as not especially similar in the context of our current pool of eligibles (a survey of the first 20 ballots cast in 1984 shows John as the only voter with Robinson and Elliott closer together than Vaux), I think it is justifiable to argue that Vaux take his conclusion that the two players are indistinguishable as evidence that he work on making finer distinctions.
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