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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, September 18, 20061985 Results: Backloggers Méndez, Freehan, and Sewell Finally Move Into the Hall of Merit!After 54 ballots (the second longest wait after Clark Griffith and the longest for a Negro Leaguer), Cuban pitching ace José Méndez was elected to the Hall of Merit with 47% of all possible points. He is now our 26th Negro League selection. In his fourth year of eligibility, Tiger star Bill Freehan took the second spot this “year” for immortality with 43% of all possible points. Like Méndez, supreme contact hitter Joe Sewell also had to wait a long time before finally being elected (47 “years”). He earned 35% of all possible points. Breaking the record set just last “year” by one, there were 87 candidates who found themselves on a ballot. Rounding out the top-ten were: Billy Pierce (big move up!), Rube Waddell, Ralph Kiner, Minnie Minoso, Cupid Childs, Ken Boyer (first time in the top-ten), and Dobie Moore (back in the top-ten after 8 years!). RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 3 José Méndez 621 37 8 4 5 1 1 2 3 2 2 1 2 2 1 3 2 4 Bill Freehan 568 36 3 6 1 5 3 2 3 1 3 2 3 1 1 1 1 3 5 Joe Sewell 459 30 5 2 2 2 3 1 4 1 2 1 3 3 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 8 Billy Pierce 441 29 2 3 3 5 3 1 2 3 1 1 1 4 5 9 Rube Waddell 439 28 2 5 4 1 1 2 1 4 1 1 2 1 1 2 6 6 Ralph Kiner 424 30 3 4 2 1 5 2 1 1 2 5 2 2 7 7 Minnie Minoso 406 29 2 2 2 1 2 3 3 2 4 2 3 2 1 8 10 Cupid Childs 387 27 4 3 2 1 3 2 2 1 1 3 1 2 2 9 14 Ken Boyer 363 29 1 1 2 4 3 1 3 1 4 1 1 2 1 4 10 11 Dobie Moore 349 22 2 3 4 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 15 Nellie Fox 335 23 3 2 2 3 1 4 2 2 2 1 1 12 12 Jake Beckley 330 22 2 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 2 1 13 13 Cannonball Dick Redding 314 22 3 1 1 1 4 1 1 1 2 1 3 3 14 16 Jimmy Wynn 310 26 2 2 3 1 3 1 1 6 3 3 1 15 19 Quincy Trouppe 277 20 3 1 4 4 2 3 2 1 16 17 Hugh Duffy 268 20 2 3 1 2 4 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 17 21 Charlie Keller 263 18 4 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 3 1 18 23 Edd Roush 259 19 2 2 1 3 3 1 1 3 2 1 19 18 Charley Jones 254 16 2 3 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 20 25 Bucky Walters 243 17 1 3 1 1 3 1 3 2 1 1 21 20 Pete Browning 234 15 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 22 22 George Van Haltren 201 14 2 1 2 3 1 1 1 2 1 23 27 Gavy Cravath 188 15 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 24 24 Bob Johnson 184 13 1 1 3 1 1 2 2 2 25 26 Mickey Welch 179 10 2 2 2 1 1 2 26 30T Alejandro Oms 178 14 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 27 29 Burleigh Grimes 173 13 1 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 28 28 Roger Bresnahan 170 13 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 29 32 Tommy Leach 150 12 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 1 1 30 n/e Lou Brock 141 11 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 3 31 30T Norm Cash 123 9 2 1 2 1 2 1 32 33 Orlando Cepeda 108 10 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 33 43 Dizzy Dean 107 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 34 34 Larry Doyle 102 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 35 35 Wally Schang 92 7 1 1 1 1 2 1 36 37 Bob Elliott 91 8 1 1 1 2 1 2 37 42 Vic Willis 84 7 1 1 1 2 2 38 38 Ben Taylor 83 6 1 1 1 1 2 39 39 John McGraw 82 5 2 1 1 1 40 40 Pie Traynor 79 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 41 36 Tommy Bridges 75 7 1 2 1 1 1 1 42 41 Phil Rizzuto 71 5 1 1 1 1 1 43 n/e Thurman Munson 65 7 1 2 1 3 44 47 Elston Howard 56 7 1 4 1 1 45 48 Addie Joss 54 5 1 1 1 2 46 44 Jimmy Ryan 51 5 1 1 1 2 47 54 Carl Mays 50 4 1 1 1 1 48 46 Sam Rice 48 4 2 1 1 49 52T Bill Monroe 46 4 1 1 1 1 50T 51 Vern Stephens 44 4 2 2 50T 52T Ed Williamson 44 4 1 3 52 55 Dizzy Trout 43 3 1 1 1 53 45 Dutch Leonard 41 3 1 1 1 54 56 Frank Howard 40 5 1 1 1 2 55 63 Al Rosen 40 4 1 1 1 1 56 49T Rabbit Maranville 39 3 1 1 1 57 59 Luis Aparicio 36 4 1 2 1 58 60 Ed Cicotte 34 3 1 1 1 59T 57 Chuck Klein 34 2 2 59T 49T Ernie Lombardi 34 2 1 1 61 65 Tony Mullane 31 3 1 1 1 62 58 Dave Bancroft 27 3 2 1 63 73T Bobby Veach 26 3 1 2 64 64 Frank Chance 26 2 1 1 65 69 Urban Shocker 23 2 1 1 66 61T Lefty Gomez 22 2 1 1 67 68 Jack Quinn 22 1 1 68T 66T Fielder Jones 16 1 1 68T 61T Tony Oliva 16 1 1 70 77T George J. Burns 15 2 1 1 71T 71T Fred Dunlap 13 1 1 71T 70 Sam Leever 13 1 1 73T 66T Artie Wilson 12 1 1 73T 73T Wilbur Cooper 12 1 1 73T 75T Gil Hodges 12 1 1 73T 75T Virgil Trucks 12 1 1 77 71T Don Newcombe 11 1 1 78 77T Sol White 10 1 1 79T 81T Dom DiMaggio 9 1 1 79T 77T Hack Wilson 9 1 1 81T 81T Jim Fregosi 7 1 1 81T 81T Bob Friend 7 1 1 83T n/e Wally Berger 6 1 1 83T n/e Kiki Cuyler 6 1 1 83T n/e George Kell 6 1 1 83T n/e Billy Nash 6 1 1 83T n/e Vada Pinson 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Bus Clarkson(85), Herman Long(77T), Bill Wright(81T). Ballots Cast: 55
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: September 18, 2006 at 08:40 PM | 80 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#2181135)Waddell, Pierce, Kiner, and Minoso gave Sewell a run for his money, but he finally got the prize at the end.
HOF-not-HOM through 1985
1 Aparicio, Luis
2. Bancroft, Dave
3. Beckley, Jake
4 Bender, Chief
5 Bottomley, Jim
6 Bresnahan, Roger
7 Brock, Lou
8 Chance, Frank
9 Chesbro, Jack
10 Combs, Earle
11 Cuyler, Kiki
12 Dean, Dizzy
13 Duffy, Hugh
14 Evers, Johnny
15 Ferrell, Rick
16 Gomez, Lefty
17 Grimes, Burleigh
18 Hafey, Chick
19 Haines, Jesse
20 Hooper, Harry
21 Hoyt, Waite
22 Jackson, Travis
23 Johnson, Judy
24 Joss, Addie
25 Kell, George
26 Kelly, George
27 Kiner, Ralph
28 Klein, Chuck
29 Lindstrom, Freddie
30 Manush, Heinie
31 Maranville, Rabbit
32 Marquard, Rube
33 McCarthy, Tommy
34 McGraw, John
35 Pennock, Herb
36 Rice, Sam
37 Roush, Edd
38 Schalk, Ray
39 Tinker, Joe
40 Traynor, Pie
41 Waddell, Rube
42 Waner, Lloyd
43 Welch, Mickey
44 Wilson, Hack
45 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
1 Allen, Dick
2 Ashburn, Richie
3 Barnes, Ross
4 Beckwith, John
5 Bennett, Charlie
6 Brown, Ray
7 Brown, Willard
8 Bunning, Jim
9 Caruthers, Bob
10 Dahlen, Bill
11 Davis, George
12 Doby, Larry
13 Doerr, Bobby
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Foster, Willie
16 Freehan, Bill
17 Glasscock, Jack
18 Gordon, Joe
19 Gore, George
20 Grant, Frank
21 Groh, Heinie
22 Hack, Stan
23 Hill, Pete
24 Hines, Paul
25 Jackson, Joe*
26 Johnson, Home Run
27 Mackey. Biz
28 Magee, Sherry
29 McPhee, Bid
30 McVey, Cal
31 Méndez, José
32 Newhouser, Hal
33 Pearce, Dickey
34 Pike, Lip
35 Richardson, Hardy
36 Rogan, Bullet Joe
37 Santo, Ron
38 Santop, Louis
39 Sheckard, Jimmy
40 Start, Joe
41 Stearnes, Turkey
42 Stovey, Harry
43 Suttles, Mule
44 Sutton, Ezra
45 Torre, Joe
46 Torriente, Cristobal
47 Wells, Willie
48 White, Deacon
49 Williams, Billy
50 Williams, Smokey Joe
51 Wilson, Jud
* not eligible for the HOF
Mendez and Freehan pulled away from a very tight race to that point after 30-some ballots. After 53 it was Mendez, Freehan, Kiner, Waddell, Pierce, Sewell and Minoso. All 5 of them (excluding Mendez and Freehan) were in the 3rd slot at one time or another over the last 15 ballots or so.
#1-2-5-6-7-8-10-11-13-17-18-19-21 are in my PHoM. Looking forward to doing a little more catching up again the next couple of years.
As expected, this year's electees are all near the bottom of the list.
INNER CIRCLE, BABY!
100.0 - Cy Young (1917)
100.0 - Honus Wagner (1923)
100.0 - Walter Johnson (1933)
100.0 - Babe Ruth (1941)
100.0 - Lou Gehrig (1944)
100.0 - Lefty Grove (1947)
100.0 - Joe DiMaggio (1957)
100.0 - Ted Williams (1966)
100.0 - Stan Musial (1969)
100.0 - Mickey Mantle (1974)
100.0 - Willie Mays (1979)
100.0 - Hank Aaron (1982)
NO-BRAINERS (>95)
99.8 - Sam Crawford (1924)
99.7 - Dan Brouthers (1902)
99.5 - Jimmie Foxx (1951)
99.5 - Warren Spahn (1971)
99.4 - Pete Alexander (1936)
99.4 - Josh Gibson (1952)
99.3 - Ty Cobb (1934)
99.2 - Oscar Charleston (1943)
98.9 - Kid Nichols (1911)
98.8 - Nap Lajoie (1922)
98.7 - Bob Gibson (1981)
98.4 - Ed Delahanty (1909)
98.4 - Arky Vaughan (1954)
98.3 - Roy Campanella (1963)
97.9 - Charlie Gehringer (1948)
97.9 - Bob Feller (1962)
97.8 - Eddie Collins (1935)
96.9 - Turkey Stearnes (1946)
96.6 - Satchel Paige (1959)
96.5 - Christy Mathewson (1922)
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby (1941)
95.8 - Frank Robinson (1982)
95.7 - George Davis (1915)
95.7 - Carl Hubbell (1949)
95.4 - Eddie Mathews (1974)
95.3 - Paul Waner (1950)
95.3 - Mel Ott (1952)
EASY CHOICES (>85)
94.9 - Jesse Burkett (1912)
94.8 - Smokey Joe Williams (1936)
94.8 - Johnny Mize (1959)
94.7 - Robin Roberts (1972)
94.7 - Ernie Banks (1977)
94.6 - Duke Snider (1970)
94.5 - Yogi Berra (1969)
94.4 - Deacon White (1898)
94.0 - Paul Hines (1898)
94.0 - Jim O'Rourke (1899)
94.0 - Jackie Robinson (1962)
93.7 - Al Simmons (1946)
93.2 - Roger Connor (1903)
93.1 - Roberto Clemente (1978)
92.1 - Gabby Hartnett (1947)
92.0 - Louis Santop (1932)
91.9 - Pop Lloyd (1935)
91.9 - Al Kaline (1980)
91.7 - Luke Appling (1956)
91.5 - Bill Dickey (1953)
90.6 - Harry Heilmann (1937)
90.3 - Buck Leonard (1955)
90.0 - John Clarkson (1900)
89.1 - Billy Hamilton (1907)
89.1 - Hank Greenberg (1953)
88.9 - Bill Dahlen (1915)
88.3 - Mickey Cochrane (1943)
88.2 - Cristobal Torriente (1937)
87.7 - Ron Santo (1980)
87.7 - Harmon Killebrew (1981)
87.2 - Joe Cronin (1951)
86.7 - Frankie Frisch (1944)
85.2 - Cap Anson* (1903)
85.2 - Fred Clarke (1917)
* Six voters boycotted Anson in 1903.
SOMEWHAT DEBATABLE (>70)
84.0 - King Kelly (1899)
83.5 - Ray Brown (1955)
82.9 - Martin Dihigo (1950)
82.6 - Frank Baker (1928)
82.4 - Jack Glasscock (1904)
82.2 - Eddie Plank (1924)
82.0 - Tris Speaker (1934)
81.5 - Goose Goslin (1945)
79.9 - Bullet Rogan (1940)
79.5 - George Gore (1898)
79.1 - Whitey Ford (1973)
78.6 - Hal Newhouser (1960)
78.4 - Willie Wells (1954)
78.2 - Tim Keefe (1901)
76.9 - Zack Wheat (1933)
76.6 - Jud Wilson (1948)
76.2 - George Wright (1901)
75.6 - Ezra Sutton (1908)
75.5 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1978)
74.7 - Buck Ewing (1902)
74.5 - Bid McPhee (1913)
74.4 - Ed Walsh (1920)
74.4 - Joe Jackson (1927)
73.9 - Pud Galvin (1910)
73.5 - John Ward (1900)
73.5 - Cal McVey (1914)
73.4 - Al Spalding (1906)
73.3 - Willie Keeler (1919)
72.5 - Joe Start (1912)
71.7 - Charley Radbourn (1905)
71.3 - Pee Wee Reese (1964)
70.7 - Jimmy Collins (1921)
SPLIT DECISIONS (>50)
69.8 - Amos Rusie (1904)
69.2 - Elmer Flick (1918)
68.9 - Dick Allen (1983)
68.4 - Ross Barnes (1898)
68.3 - Juan Marichal (1980)
68.1 - Joe Kelley (1919)
68.0 - Brooks Robinson (1984)
67.3 - Mule Suttles (1956)
67.1 - Hardy Richardson (1905)
67.1 - Grant Johnson (1925)
66.8 - Mordecai Brown (1925)
66.8 - Ted Lyons (1949)
65.8 - Billy Williams (1983)
65.0 - Bill Foster (1945)
64.9 - Heinie Groh (1938)
63.2 - Harry Stovey (1916)
62.4 - Stan Coveleski (1938)
62.1 - Larry Doby (1965)
61.6 - Jimmy Sheckard (1930)
61.3 - Frank Grant (1926)
61.3 - Monte Irvin (1963)
61.0 - Bobby Wallace (1929)
60.9 - Charlie Bennett (1921)
60.9 - Enos Slaughter (1965)
60.7 - Joe McGinnity (1928)
60.2 - Sherry Magee (1926)
60.0 - Pete Hill (1927)
59.9 - Billy Herman (1958)
59.9 - Joe Torre (1984)
58.0 - John Beckwith (1957)
56.6 - Bob Caruthers (1930)
56.5 - Dazzy Vance (1942)
54.9 - Don Drysdale (1975)
54.6 - Sam Thompson (1929)
54.3 - Sandy Koufax (1972)
53.0 - Dickey Pearce (1931)
VERY SPLIT DECISIONS (<50)
49.1 - Early Wynn (1970)
48.6 - Rube Foster (1932)
48.6 - Stan Hack (1958)
48.5 - Lou Boudreau (1958)
47.0 - José Méndez (1985)
46.3 - Red Faber (1939)
45.6 - Max Carey (1939)
44.9 - Bill Terry (1942)
44.7 - Joe Medwick (1967)
43.0 - Bill Freehan (1985)
41.8 - Joe Gordon (1976)
41.5 - Bob Lemon (1967)
41.3 - Wes Ferrell (1964)
40.5 - Lip Pike (1940)
40.4 - Earl Averill (1961)
38.8 - Red Ruffing (1966)
38.7 - Eppa Rixey (1968)
38.2 - George Sisler (1979)
38.1 - Richie Ashburn (1968)
37.9 - Willard Brown (1976)
37.7 - Hughie Jennings (1960)
37.7 - Jim Bunning (1977)
36.8 - Cool Papa Bell (1973)
35.4 - Biz Mackey (1975)
34.8 - Joe Sewell (1985)
32.8 - Clark Griffith (1971)
32.8 - Bobby Doerr (1972)
I think Clark Griffith would disagree with that statement... :-)
Damn! Forgot about him.
Glad we have some lurkers who are on the ball. :-) Thanks!
And just curious, John, who was in 3rd place when you were grumbling about it in the ballot thread?
That might have been Waddell. But then again it might have been Kiner.
----
he highest possible consensus score was a mere +3. The average consensus score was -15.0, not quite matching the record of -15.4 set in 1968. (There are some questions about how to translate the formula between elect-2 and elect-3 years; these may not strictly be comparable. It is likely that we'll break this record in 1987.
Some individual scores:
Got Melky: -3
Devin McCullen: -6
Ardo: -8
Howie Menckel: -9
Juan V: -9
andrew siegel: -9
Pedro Feliz N: -10
Esteban Rivera: -10
Tiboreau: -10
fra paolo: -10
...
Chris Cobb: -14
...
OCF: -14
...
Thane of Bagarth: -15 (median)
...
Jeff M: -20
Rusty Priske: -20
Daryn: -20
KJOK: -22
Eric C: -22
Joe Dimino: -22
John Murphy: -23
Patrick W: -24
yest: -25
karlmagnus: -26
rico vanian: -26
It was hard to be an outlier in either direction as there was so little consensus to agree or disagree with.
That might have been Waddell. But then again it might have been Kiner.
No, it was Rube. I wasn't grumbling about it, BTW, just surprised that he was that close. Of course, since I didn't have a completed plaque for Waddell yet, Sewell's induction did make it a little easier for me to update the Plaque Room on time. :-D
Love ya, Joe!
Beckley continues to march inexorably toward 1st, and he may be able to 'dodge' getting elected before it happens... Childs and Waddell pass Jennings to grab the 6-7 slots.. Sewell and Mendez 'retire' at No. 12-13... Bresnahan joins the top 20... Moore knocks fellow Negro Leaguer Mackey out of the all-time top 25... Pierce moves within 8 pts of the top 25 but may be running out of time.
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 22571.5
BECKLEY 21999
DUFFY 21541.5
BROWNING 18589.5
Griffith 17924
CHILDS 17247
WADDELL 17121
Jennings 16976
WELCH 15411
Sisler 13892
Pike 13399
Sewell 12769
Mendez 12555
Thompson 12349
RYAN 11753.5
Bennett 11503
REDDING 11431
CJONES 11147
TLEACH 10982
BRESNAHAN 10952
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
MOORE 8943,
Mackey 8930
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Roush 8245, Doyle 7138, Kiner 6786, Cravath 6506, Monroe 6332, Grimes 6014, Walters 5386, Minoso 5303, Williamson 5281, Schang 5185, McGraw 4865, Trouppe 4302)
not quite
(Pierce 4294, Oms 4199, BJohnson 3654, Fox 3451, Joss 3371, Willis 3332, McCormick 3148X, Keller 2969, Chance 2792X, Elliott 2745, Tiernan 2686X)
(plus I need to check Ken Boyer for next time...)
Name Votes PCT
Hoyt Wilhelm 331 83.80
Lou Brock 315 79.75
Nellie Fox 295 74.68
Billy Williams 252 63.80
Jim Bunning 214 54.18
Catfish Hunter 212 53.67
Roger Maris 128 32.41
Harvey Kuenn 125 31.65
Orlando Cepeda 114 28.86
Tony Oliva 114 28.86
Maury Wills 93 23.54
Bill Mazeroski 87 22.03
Lew Burdette 82 20.76
Mickey Lolich 78 19.75
Ken Boyer 68 17.22
Roy Face 62 15.70
Elston Howard 54 13.67
Ron Santo 53 13.42
Joe Torre 44 11.14
Don Larsen 32 8.10
Thurman Munson 32 8.10
Dick Allen 28 7.09
Curt Flood 28 7.09
Vada Pinson 19 4.81
Wilbur Wood 16 4.05
Harvey Haddix 15 3.80
Dave McNally 7 1.77
Ken Holtzman 4 1.01
Ron Fairly 3 0.76
Jim Lonborg 3 0.76
Andy Messersmith 3 0.76
Don Kessinger 2 0.51
Denny McLain 2 0.51
Jesus Alou 1 0.25
Rico Carty 1 0.25
Dock Ellis 1 0.25
Clay Carroll 0 0.00
Ed Kranepool 0 0.00
George Scott 0 0.00
Bobby Tolan 0 0.00
Roy White 0 0.00
The HOF grants a partial reprieve from the 5% rule. Freehan was not included.
Santo and Allen are the only two to survive the 2nd chance.
With Sewell's election, the title of "broken shiny new toy" passes to Jimmy Ryan, who debuted at 8th in 1909, the highest debut that remains unelected to the HOM.
Still, the election of a guy you’ve voted for year in and out for fifty years is a cause for celebration and reflection. So to close out his long, long stay on my ballot, here’s a little highlight package of my voting history for my teddy bear, Jose Mendez. Jose, ... thanks for the memories.
Mendez reached eligibility in 1932, at which time he appeared on my ballot for the first time. I had only started to vote in 1930, and I was still working on the mechanics of my system.
9. Jose Mendez (X): I love the big peak, it gives his profile enough oomph to outrank Griffith and Foster when combined with some good shoulder years that militate against the dead-arm period.
Mendez slid off my ballot just two years later when the onslaught of Cobb, Speaker, Colllins, Alexander, Williams, and Torriente pushed him down. He didn’t appear again among my hot fifteen until 1937 where this comment portended much for him:
A lot of flux over the past couple weeks, and this week's no different as I reconsider my reconsiderations and try to get a better handle on the pitching and OF gluts.
15. Mendez: His big peak plus a couple more shoulder years gets him into the caboose slot on my ballot over Cooper. Could go either way.
He stayed at 15 through 1938, then in 1939, yet another revamping of my early, immature methods led me to rerank him in a most dramatic fashion:
I'm now a Win Shares voter. I understand its mechanics and flaws better than WARP's. I’m also balancing pitching and career with hitting and peak more than ever.
4. Mendez: Best pitching peak on the board, plus enough shoulder to make a career out of it.
My 1940 comments were truly prescient:
5. Jose Mendez: Big peak, and enough shoulder seasons to shoulder his way past the likes of Waddell.
Through the early 1940s he remained very high on my backlog list and between 4th and 7th on my ballots, superceded only by GVH and Duffy among all backloggers, a situation that would ultimately change.
1945 brought yet another revamp and this comment:
8. Jose Mendez: Last week: Right where he’s always been. This week: bumped down a couple pegs after seeing that CC’s caveats.
He dropped behind Geo J Burns and Eppa Rixey and John Beckwith and Mule Suttles too. In subsequent years, however, Gary A’s research would mitigate many of Chris’s concerns and help propel Mendez up my ballot and many others’ as well.
In 1946 he dropped to ninth and in my Oscar-based recap was the award for "Best Leading Pitcher in an Early 20th Century Cuban League …"
Rixey cleared out in 1947 with this note on his and Mendez’s shared comment:
9. Jose Mendez
10. Eppa Rixey
Fans of Dr. Chaleeko will note that I have revised these two hurlers downward somewhat, Rixey by several spots. I'm finally rethinking my pitching approach a bit.
Which of course led me to also rank him above Ted Lyons in 1948 (and later Red Ruffing and Early Wynn too)…but nonetheless I also ranked him above Wes Ferrell, a similarly inninged peak pitcher.
Gavy Cravath vaulted above Jose for a few years in the early 1950s, forcing Mendez into 10th on my ballot in 1950. The relationship between Mendez and Ferrell was duly noted with this pendant pair of comments:
10)Jose Mendez: Cuba’s answer to Wes Ferrell.
14) Wes Ferrell: America’s answer to Jose Mendez.
And mirrored in the 1952 comments for Mendez:
...if I had to have he or Wes Ferrell pitch one game to win the galaxy back from the clutches of evil, I’d pick the Black Diamond.
In 1953, I re-re-revamped my system. All those CFs and corner OFs started sliding downward. Cravath moved down a bit, GVH a few slots too. Duffy remained ahead, but otherwise, everyone above Jose (except Suttles) dropped below him. And other than Duffy all soon found election:
7. Jose Mendez: I'm reconsidering the relative importance of a pitcher's peak to his slot on my ballot. I think that I've probably underrated Mendez a bit, though I feel comfy with Dean off my ballot. Maybe more reconsideration is needed?
1955, saw a lot more confidence in my ranking:
7. Jose Mendez. Someone today comped him to Ed Walsh. That works well for me. Now add on that Mendez could hit his way out of a batting cage and you’ve got a very solid candidate who is in line (on my ballot) for impending induction (and is already in my pHOM).
Finally in 1956, I started to get a bit protective of Mendez:
7. Jose Mendez: Where's the love for him? Better than the several available peaktastic pitchers.
1957 was his first above 7th on my ballot in several years, and I got testier:
6. Jose Mendez. I understand the lack of certainty around Mendez's case, but any FOWF who haven't reconsidered Mendez in a while ought to. He's the man.
He rose to fourth in 1958 and third in 1960 as the frontlog cleared out in some of our hottest contested elections to that point. Duffy remained above him and Oms joined Hugh for a while in the mid 1950s. But finally in 1961, I came out of the proverbial closet and revealed my man crush on Jose Mendez:
1961 is my own personal HOM Year of the Pitcher. I've rejigged my ballot extensively AGAIN this year. The queries about the dearth of pitching and previous questions about balanced representation have made me look deep into my decision-making to figure out what the h*ll I'm doing with my ballots (and wouldn't you all like to know the answer to that one!). To make this story a little shorter, the answer is that I'm chronically over-rating OFs and chronically underrating Ps, plus I could use an infielder on this ballot.
1 Jose Mendez: Peaktastic pitching in addition to a plus bat, and versatility.
Jose never looked back. With Duffy and Oms dispatched (the latter realllly dispatched) and with my system taking essentially the form we see today, Mendez began his twenty-five year reign as the King of Doc C’s Backlog.
Mendez led the flotilla of peakish pitchers I’ve supported ever since. Ferrell, Pierce, even LeRoy Matlock for a time (and that’s one I’d like to know more about!). Walters, Lemon, you name ‘em. 1966 was the year Gary gave us the research on Mendez’s success against white professional teams in Cuba, information that strongly supported the MLEs in his thread.
I haven’t changed up my message about him too much since the mid 1960s: Great peak, hit pretty good, supported by the research. The ice cube that caused him to floweth over the edge of the tumbler was surely the HOF’s inclusion of him among its 17 inductees this year, giving us expert confirmation of what we all believed was true in our hearts.
I held out hope all the way for Jose, however—a faith rewarded with increasing support from a cross section of our electorate. But even as late as 1970 I had doubts and composed a deux et machina theory about his candidacy:
2. Jose Mendez: Stop me if you’ve heard this one before, but he’s chronically underranked and with any luck Chris Cobb and Gary A will soon write a breakthrough expose on how much better he is than we all think he even is.
In 1981, he placed second to Bob Gibson on my ballot, prompting me to offer a comparison that says a lot for how good Mendez’s peak really was:
1. Bob Gibson: Dominant peak/prime with plenty of career.
2. Jose Mendez: Dominant peak/prime with less career.
Now, today, I am proud to say that I’ve supported Mendez strongly for a long, long time. About 40–50 years actually. And while he did miss my ballot in two or three of the early, early years, and while he was usually at best “merely” the number one member of the backlog, he’s still been a fun candidate to support, and an extraordinary career to learn about and contemplate. I won’t claim the kind of victory that John Murphy could have claimed after Pearce’s election because I didn’t stump very hard for Mendez and because I didn’t do the heavy lifting of figuring his MLEs. But as an ardent, long-time supporter, I will say that I’m very grateful that the electorate has seen fit to honor his career with election to the HOM, and I’m extremely pleased that his name will, for the next twenty election cycles, be on our HOM not HOF list.
There were some Tommy Bond votes that came awfully close.
Lowest Ranked Player Eventually Elected:
Dickey Pearce, 1898-1909, low: 31st in 1898, elected in 1931
Bob Caruthers, 1910-1913, low: 20th in 1911 and 1912, elected in 1930
Clark Griffith, 1914-1923, low: 22nd in 1923, elected in 1971
Rube Foster, 1924-1927, low: 23rd in 1924 and 1925, elected in 1932
Hughie Jennings, 1928-1931, low: 17th in 1928, elected in 1960
Jose Mendez, 1932-1955, low: 32nd in 1951, elected in 1985
Joe Gordon, 1956-1968, low: 33rd in 1957, elected in 1976
Joe Sewell, 1969-1985, low: 18th in 1969 and 1970, elected in 1985
(and here's what the list had looked like back in 1973, before the elections of Mendez, Gordon or Sewell)
Clark Griffith, 1935-1938, low: 13th in 1936
John Beckwith, 1939-1940, low: 14th in 1939, elected in 1957
Hughie Jennings, 1941-1944, low: 12th in 1943 and 1944
Wes Ferrell, 1945, 7th, elected in 1964
Hughie Jennings, 1946-1947, 9th in both years
Cool Papa Bell, 1948-1951, low: 17th in 1948, elected in 1973
Clark Griffith, 1952, 12th
Cool Papa Bell, 1953-1956, low: 17th in 1954
Bobby Doerr, 1957-1970, low: 24th in 1957, elected in 1972
Cool Papa Bell, 1971-1972, low: 6th in 1971
And the other side of the coin:
Highest Ranked Player Not Yet Elected:
Ed Williamson, 1898, 10th
Pete Browning, 1899-1906, high: 10th in 1906
Cupid Childs, 1907, 11th
Hugh Duffy, 1908, 10th
Jimmy Ryan, 1909, 8th
Hugh Duffy, 1910-1915, high: 5th in 1913
Rube Waddell, 1916-1922, high: 10th in 1918, 1919 and 1921
Jake Beckley, 1923-1924, high: 13th in 1924
George Van Haltren, 1925, 12th
Jake Beckley, 1926-1929, high: 7th in 1929
George Van Haltren, 1930-1933, high: 3rd in 1931 and 1932
Jake Beckley, 1934-1940, high: 6th in 1938
Tommy Leach, 1941, 8th
George Van Haltren, 1942, 7th
Jake Beckley, 1943, 8th
George Van Haltren, 1944-1945, high: 9th in 1944
Jake Beckley, 1946-1951, high: 11th in 1946 and 1947
George Van Haltren, 1952-1953, high: 14th in 1952
Jake Beckley, 1954-1958, high: 14th in 1958
George Van Haltren, 1959-1960, 12th
Jake Beckley, 1961, 11th
George Van Haltren, 1962-1970, high: 5th in 1968
Dick Redding, 1971, 8th
George Van Haltren, 1972, 7th
Dick Redding, 1973, 6th
Minnie Minoso, 1974-1976, high: 5th in 1976
Dick Redding, 1977, 5th
Ralph Kiner, 1978, 4th
Minnie Minoso, 1979, 4th
Ralph Kiner, 1980, 6th
Minnie Minoso, 1981, 7th
Ralph Kiner, 1982-1984, high: 6th in 1984
Billy Pierce, 1985, 4th
These year's near-record setting class is Jose Mendez, Bill Freehan, Joe Sewell, Billy Pierce, Rube Waddell, Ralph Kiner, Minnie Minoso, Dobie Moore, Jake Beckley, Dick Redding, Hugh Duffy, Charlie Keller, Charley Jones, Bucky Walters, Pete Browning, George Van Haltren, Gavvy Cravath, Bob Johnson, Mickey Welch, Alejandro Oms, Burleigh Grimes, Roger Bresnahan, Lou Brock, Larry Doyle, Wally Schang and Rabbit Maranville.
Mendez 1932-1939: 6-5-9-12-x-11-11-9
He dropped off in 1940, only getting back on again in 1952, by which time Doc is certainly a better friend to Mendez than I was. He remained on my ballot every year from 1952 until elected, however. His peak in the '50s was #7 in 1958. In the '60s he got as high as #6 in 1968, then was #6 again in 1970 and '71 before slumping back into the double digits for 10 years. He only made it into the single digits again and peaked again at #8 this year.
My top pitchers:
1932: Bond, Waddell, Mendez, Foster (elected)
1940: Rogan (elected), Bond, McCormick, Waddell
1952: Bond, Waddell, Mendez
1958: Bond, Waddell, Mendez, Joss
1968: Waddell, Mendez, Joss, Redding, Bond
1971: Mendez, Waddell, Bond, Redding, Joss
1985: Waddell, Mendez, Joss, Redding, Cicotte
All in all not as much movement as I remembered.
Bond was on my ballot 1906-17, 1927-40, 1942-74
Waddell 1930, 1932-36, 1938-85
Joss 1941-47, 1949-51, 1953, 1956-85
Redding 1937-39, 1960-74, 1985
Along with McCormick and Cicotte, since 1932 Gomez, Willis and H. Smith among non-elected pitchers have appeared on one or more ballot. Today all of this eligible pitchers rate:
1. Waddell
2. Joss
3. Redding
4. Cicotte
5. H. Smith
6. Bond
7. Willis
8. Gomez
9. McCormick
There are other pitchers who would rate ahead of some of these guys. Pitchers remain challenging, and this list seems a bit top-heavy on old-timers. I don't adjust much for workload, as you can see. It seems to me that that's the value that pitchers nowadays have--i.e. not much, because the workload is split up so many ways and into smaller pieces.
OTOH I've had plenty of pitchers on my ballot, but I'm also more in tune with the consensus on the modern pitchers than I was re. the old-timers.
Tons of career value there, eating innings and eating them well is incredibly valuable. Do it for a couple of decades and well, there you go . . .
Can someone explain how Freehan can finish 2nd and Munson 43rd? They're basically the same package. Freehan played a little longer and had the (slightly) higher peak, Munson had the better glove and higher career rate on offense. And it's not like Munson didn't have a peak - both have 3 years over 8 WARP (actually Freehan had one at 7.9, but who's counting?) - Freehan had the one monster year in 1968, but that's not enough to separate them by much.
I think they are separated by a hair, not 41 spots. That blows my mind more than anything else on this ballot this week.
However, as my system sees it, the top 50 players are essentially no more than 5% above or below what will become the all-time in out line. Freehan is slightly above -- elected quickly. Munson is slightly below -- hardly sniffs a ballot.
Also, with Trouppe, Schang, and Bresnahan out there, it's quite possible for voters to have a couple of catchers ranked between Freehan and Munson, close in value as they are.
I don't think the electorate's placement of them is unreasonable, given the size of the pool.
Big gaps on the results chart don't necessarily mean that people see that big of a gap in their resumes.
Still for me the catchers are Freehan, E. Howard, Bresnahan, Trouppe, Mackey, Munson, Clapp, Schang, Lombardi. And I loved Munson as a player. I'm the guy who started the Munson was better than Fisk discussion because through 1979 he was.
Big gaps on the results chart don't necessarily mean that people see that big of a gap in their resumes.
Exactly. Which is why we should've gone to a 20-man ballot, heh-heh.
Seriously, in our trial period for the extended ballot we didn't really have an election like this one, where being able to express finer distinctions could make the difference. As it was, we simply promoted the top three from the backlog in the elections of 1982-83-84.
The next three elections will be even moreso, as we mine deeper into the backlog. Again, I recommend to John that he post new player threads now for these important elections. Our result will be better if we start focusing now on Bonds, Bando, Smith, Tiant and Murcer.
Why has Waddell moved up so much in recent years? Is it new voters? In less than a decade he has passed Browning, Van Haltren, Childs, Moore, Boyer, Duffy, Redding, Beckley, Kiner and Minoso.
Now, it's hard for me to picture him not getting a top 15 slot.
I actually have Pierce slightly ahead of Waddell (much longer prime/career, leveraged RP IP, maybe a slight timeline, etc.), but both are near the top of the ballot.
The biggest point, though, likely is the rejection of the idea that Waddell allowed an unusual amount of UER.
I have a slight hunch that his 'eccentricity' might have a slight role in his odd W-L record, but I don't see it as enough to really downgrade him at this point.
Joe DiMaggio
John Beckwith
Billy Herman
Lou Boudreau
Stan Hack
Joe Medwick
Red Ruffing
Hughie Jennings
Wes Ferrell
Biz Mackey
Earl Averill
Eppa Rixey
George Sisler
Clark Griffith
Jake Beckley
George Van Haltren
Cool Papa Bell
Hugh Duffy
Mickey Welch
Cupid Childs
Bobby Doerr
Joe Sewell
Pete Browning
Bucky Walters
Cannonball Dick Redding
Dobie Moore
Alejandro Oms
José Méndez
Charley Jones
Tommy Leach
Gavy Cravath
Burleigh Grimes
Joe Gordon
Rube Waddell
I do hope that Harvey is reading this after his impassioned pleas for Freehan a few 'years' ago.
Is there any other Hall out there that has honored Freehan as we have just done?
Maybe in another 24 years the Coop will see it, too.
I was part of the wave of new Waddell support this year and voted for him for the first time. But I *still* think he gave up a lot of UER. Maybe it wasn't an 'unusual amount' but it was definitely high and also high relative to his peers. Also, the idea that a strikeout artist (eight K/9 titles) is giving up a lot of UER is head-scratching for sure. These types of pitchers are supposed to be more defense-independent!
What I came to realize was that Waddell was still an extremely effective pitcher. Taking 5-8 points off of his ERA+ still results in excellent peak and career rates and with almost 2960 IP, he's got enough meat to his career to place him above the short-career guys like Joss & Dean. So, head-scratching as it may be the Waddell's results were still HOM-worthy.
P
Bob Caruthers
Wes Ferrell
C
Deacon White
Cal McVey
Charlie Bennett
Joe Torre
Bill Freehan
1B
Joe Start
Dick Allen
2B
Ross Barnes
Hardy Richardson
Joe Gordon
3B
Ezra Sutton
Heinie Groh
John Beckwith
Stan Hack
Ron Santo
SS
Dickey Pearce
Jack Glasscock
Bill Dahlen
Homerun Johnson
LF
Harry Stovey
Jimmy Sheckard
Sherry Magee
Joe Jackson
CF
Lip Pike
Paul Hines
George Gore
Joe would be the sender.
60 Griffith
54 Mendez
53 Jennings
47 Sewell
44 Sisler
43 Pike
34 Pearce
32 Caruthers
30 Rixey
28 Thompson
27 Mackey
26 Bell
23 Bennett
21 Ferrell
21 Gordon
That's a pretty freakin' good group of guys. If that team played the stiffs that are HOF not HOM, they would be outmatched. Curiously, we are now at a cross currents in the HOM-not-HOF thing, I think.
We are about to enter a period (or maybe we're in it) where the VC clamps down on its selections, and where the BBWAA veers away from medium-length starting pitchers and borderliners of any stripe, and the HOF starts catching up to some of our guys (like Rich Ashburn and Larry Doby). They narrow some of the distinction between our institutions a bit, especially in their Negro League and 19th Century elections in the 1990s.
But simultaneously, while the Coop is electing fewer and fewer guys with tightening standards (on the whole, mind you), we're electing more classes of 3, and we're looking at contemporary players with different eyes. The phenomenon of underrated 1960s-1980s guys winning HOM-not-HOF status is showing up in droves in recent elections. Allen, Santo, Freehan, Torre all being prime examples but hardly stopping there with Grich, Evans, Evans, Bando, Simmons, Tenace, and others in the queue for the next few elections, with Wynn placing very highly in this year's election, and with many others whose careers are still underway now playing (Parrish, Trammell, Whitaker, Raines, Dawson, Stieb) who we will also have a very different outlook on than the HOF.
So oddly enough, even as the Hall becomes a little more like us, we yet become more dissimilar to it. Which, I suppose, reveals in a way what the Frisch guys really did the Hall.
In addition, we set a new record with 43 guys receiving at least 4.5% of possible points. Previously, we had 42 in 1960, 1961 and 1978. There were also 7 candidates with at least 29.5%, the most in ten years, meaning the consenus has coalesced, somewhat, around the top of the ballot.
There are no newbies from 1984-85 in the HoM. The last back-to-back years with no new HoMers is 1937-38. Edd Roush remains the best hope from those years. The only three-year HoMerless stretch is 1929-31, with GJ Burns probably the best candidate.
OTOH, 1980-83 brought on 12 new HoMers in four years. The last time this occured was 1950-53.
The 1970's, so far, is a drought decade, with only 13 new HoMers. The 1960's aren't much better with 14. The 1950's have 24; the 1940's have 25; the 1930's have 19; the 1920's have 14, the 1910's have 13; the 1900's have 14; pre-1900 has 20.
Well, the top five on the list are HOF-ers. (Griffith, Mendez, Jennings, Sewell, Sisler). Four others down the list are also in the HOF (Rixey, Thompson, Mackey, Bell). Many of those HOF-ers had to wait a long time to get inducted into Coop as well, so I don't think a comparison with HOF-not-HOM-ers is really valid for that list. Its just an interesting list of some candidacies that survived the backlog grind for many many years.
54 Mendez
53 Jennings
47 Sewell
44 Sisler
43 Pike
34 Pearce
32 Caruthers
30 Rixey
28 Thompson
27 Mackey
26 Bell
23 Bennett
21 Ferrell
21 Gordon
It's also a well-balanced team positionally.
(Kinda surpising for 14 names picked by an independent criterion.)
This team would easily win the pennant almost any year.
OF: Pike, Bell, Thompson
(somebody's gotta play left, and Pike's the natural choice)
IF: Sewell, Jennings, Gordon, Pearce
(somebody's gotta sit; my guess it's Pearce)
1B: Sisler
Ca: Mackey, Bennett
SP: Griffith, Mendez, Caruthers, Rixey, Ferrell
(Who needs a DH?)
I realize now that Dr C was referring to post #37 and not #39. Duh to me! ;-)
C Bresnahan, Roger
C Ferrell, Rick
C Schalk, Ray
1B Beckley, Jake
1B Bottomley, Jim
1B Cepeda, Orlando
1B Chance, Frank
1B Kelly, George
1B Taylor, Ben
2B Evers, Johnny
2B Fox, Nellie
2B Lazzeri, Tony
2B Mazeroski, Bill
2B Schoendienst, Red
2B White, Sol
SS Aparicio, Luis
SS Bancroft, Dave
SS Jackson, Travis
SS Maranville, Rabbit
SS Rizzuto, Phil
SS Tinker, Joe
3B Dandridge, Ray
3B Johnson, Judy
3B Kell, George
3B Lindstrom, Freddie
3B McGraw, John
3B Traynor, Pie
OF Brock, Lou
OF Combs, Earle
OF Cuyler, Kiki
OF Duffy, Hugh
OF Hafey, Chick
OF Hooper, Harry
OF Kiner, Ralph
OF Klein, Chuck
OF Manush, Heinie
OF McCarthy, Tommy
OF Rice, Sam
OF Roush, Edd
OF Waner, Lloyd
OF Wilson, Hack
OF Youngs, Ross
P Bender, Chief
P Chesbro, Jack
P Cooper, Andy
P Day, Leon
P Dean, Dizzy
P Gomez, Lefty
P Grimes, Burleigh
P Haines, Jesse
P Hoyt, Waite
P Joss, Addie
P Marquard, Rube
P Pennock, Herb
P Smith, Hilton
P Waddell, Rube
P Welch, Mickey
P Willis, Vic
There were some Tommy Bond votes that came awfully close.
Solo Votes-to-Elect:
1939 2nd Tommy Bond
1939 2nd Lave Cross
1958 3rd Pie Traynor
1964 2nd Leroy Matlock
1965 2nd Leroy Matlock
1967 2nd Leroy Matlock
1968 2nd Leroy Matlock
1985 3rd Jack Quinn
I couldn't find a single #1, but there have been single #2's, and a couple of single #3s in elect-3 years.
(Who needs a DH?)
Rixey is the weak link among the five, with a career OPS+ of 22 and no games played at any position other than pitcher. Griffith had a 69 career OPS+ and games scattered throughout his career in which he played other positions. Ferrell was the slugging PH (OPS+ 100) with a few games in the outfield, and both Caruthers and Mendez had entire seasons as full-time position players.
There are also 117 HOM-and-HOFers.
This has been larger than the sum of the differences since 1977.
Of those 117, 91 were elected to the HOM "first",
14 to both the same year, and 12 were elected to the HOF "first".
Of those 12, 6 were first-ballot HOMers that were elected to the HOF "first"
due to differences in eligibility (no formal waiting time for
Ruth, Gehrig, Hubbell, Ott, and DiMaggio, and a waiver for Clemente).
Brooks Robinson was a first-ballot HOFer and a second-ballot HOMer.
Sisler was elected by the BBWAA early in the HOF voting, took much longer here.
Jennings, Rixey, Griffith, and Sewell became VC selections before HOM election.
Anyways, I had never heard much about Ben, so did some research. Now, I am one of Ben Taylor's best friends!
Here is the enshrined in the Coop in 2006 but not in HOM roster. Some of these guys have a shot here yet.
P Chesbro, Jack
Of course, Hall of Famer Happy Jack Chesbro says, "Woo-hoo! DanG said I have a shot!"
Yeah, right. And a beer!
Sorry to break it to ya, but that was David Foss who said it.
:-)
I thought about posting a truncated list with the obvious mistakes like Kelly & McCarthy omitted, but then I didn't know where to draw the line. There are some HOF2006-not-HOM1985 guys who are high up in our backlog and appear likely to be inducted.
Oops... just noticed that I forgot Lombardi. (probably because he went into coop right next 'year')
As far as I can determine, Ben Taylor has always appeared on multiple ballots in every election since he first became eligibile. His support has never dwindled to the "single voter" level.
Anyone know how to contact him? Can send me an email . . . probably shouldn't post here. Same for Joe Torre and Dick Allen?
Joe Torre - just send to:
Joe Torre
Yankee Stadium
Bronx, NY 10451
Dick Allen - I'd send it to the Phillies, he still works with them on the RBI program. Otherwise, contact his biographer - twhitaker@philadelphiaweekly.com.
There is one outfielder in the bunch and some part-time 1Bmen. No shortstop and one 2Bman. Four 3Bmen and four catchers of whom half moved to 1B.
--
They narrow some of the distinction between our institutions a bit, especially in their Negro League and 19th Century elections in the 1990s.
The Coop elected seven Negro Leagues players (one each year) and three 19th Century players (Davis, Dahlen, McPhee). The latter are HOMers but some of the Negro Leagues will not be elected here. Indeed, iirc, one of them has never appeared on a ballot.
--
Regarding Freehan rank 2 and Munson rank 43, Chris Cobb suggested that that difference may be the difference between #200 and #250 on the group's overall alltime ranking. For what it's worth,
Through 2001, that is the difference between 287 win shares and 268 Win Shares.
More data:
Rank : WS : BFW : POW
150 : 313 : 24.1 : 30.3
200 : 287 : 20.7 : 25.5
250 : 268 : 18.0 : 22.4
300 : 253 : 14.9 : 20.4
By the way, 201 players have 20.7 BFW (no pitching); 91 have 20.7 PW (pitching); 294 have 20.7 POW (comprehensive Palmer value). The same counts up at the "24.1 level" are 150, 65, 214.
Great work, but that suggests an 'autograph mill.'
Might well be worth a good heads-up to the Tigers PR person - not a great time of year, as they are overstressed.
Theoretically, the newspapers can't posibly write enough Tiger-related stories.
Maybe we ask Joe if that's also a good route..
Actually, only two in those years (1995-2001). The Coop has yet to discover Dahlen.
You know, I'd try to contact the Tigers broadcasters, Dan Dickerson and Jim Price, direct. I think they occasionally give out an e-mail address during the broadcasts. Or even the guys on the Big Show (I forget their names) at WXYT. Jim Price is always boasting about how catchers are the best ballplayers, and I'm sure he'd see this as more evidence. If Joe can wave around his SABR credentials, so much the better for our chances. You never know what might come out of that, maybe a telephone interview, and it might get picked up by other team's broadcasters once there's a breakthrough with one, now that we're increasingly likely to elect living ballplayers. . News organizations are always after stories, especially if they appear to be from “responsible people”. SABR conventions always get a write-up in the local press, don't they? HoMer voters can call themselves "a private group of baseball scholars, many of whom are members of the Society of American Baseball Research, who discuss the merits of ballplayers throughout history to create an alternative Hall of Fame. They've seen fit to award membership of their Hall of Merit to one of the great Tigers of the 1968 pennant winners, catcher Bill Freehan…" etc. I can see/hear it now: “So, Joe, what other Tiger greats have made the Hall of Merit?” "Why did you draw a better conclusion to the Hall of Fame?"
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
Ugh, is the afternoon drive-time sports station program in every market called "The Big Show"? (usually featuring someone called the Big (Something)?)
Sports Radio: We are the downfall of the American male
[potentially offensive and inappropriate rant]
Although, admitedly, this is one of my pet peeves. I'm pretty much never interested in Joe Sportsradio's opinion on matters of war, peace, economics, or social/cultural activity, and I'm definitely not interested in his discussing celebs and stuff. If I wanted that I'd turn to NPR (no I don't drive a volvo or VW) or my local news station and formulate my own opinions about current events. To use a current name on my local station...do I really want Fred Smerlas' or Steve Diosce's slant on the day's news? Or Dick Radatz or Rico Petrocelli's? No, just in the same way that I don't want Koppel, Cokie, Limbaugh, Franken, or Colter to start telling me about the delicacies of the sacrifice bunt. Or maybe George Will, but I never could get past the TLR chapter in his book for reasons that non-As/non-Cards fan should appreciate.
The morning drive guys in Boston are very political and very conservative, and they do politics all the time. Drives me batty: not because i don't agree with them (OK, that's a big part of it), but because they offer no opposing viewpoint, or they only ridicule it, and what passes for witty political insight is just more of the same trite one-liners we've all heard. And usually they deal with national and social issues with an even worse batch of half-baked generalizations and broad-brush tarring than they do with sports stuff. This isn't Bill James thinking on the page about ideas of gov't and economics or considering the historical roots of professionalism and its effects on how we look at ourselves and our jobs---these guys leave the listener no room to question (let alone digest) their conclusions...hey, just like when they talk sports! It's just the high-horse Hannity/Limbaugh stuff that goes for entertainment these days, rattling invisible sabers over stuff that matters not a whit when foxes are robbing the henhouses, civil liberties are being dealt away like playing cards, and the world's ecosystems are approaching a frothy boil. Anyway the news-talk-radio pros do it better than them, so why bother?
Yuck.
[/potentially offensive and inappropriate rant]
[no offense if this is your perferred form of entertainment. or if you like the boston morning guys. or if you think i'm a egg-headed snob. and no offense to DL, most important. it's just an opp to go off on something that drives me batty.]
OK, replace WSJ with The Nation, and I might consider it.... ; )
Thankfully it does.
The edit page is the best political comedy available since I don't have cable and don't see Colbert. It's just that Colbert is trying to be funny.
(Pierce 4294, Oms 4199, BJohnson 3654, Fox 3451, Joss 3371, Willis 3332, McCormick 3148X, Keller 2969, Chance 2792X, Elliott 2745, Tiernan 2686X)
(plus I need to check Ken Boyer for next time...)
Howie,
I have Boyer with 2857.
Also I have Chance at 2882. He's been getting votes these last few years, that I haven't seen totaled on your list.
Thanks for the compliment, but keeping track of this one list doesn't compare with all the lists that you maintain and post after every election. Thanks for taking the time to update and post these lists as often as you do.
The Coop elected seven Negro Leagues players (one each year) and three 19th Century players (Davis, Dahlen, McPhee).
Actually, only two in those years (1995-2001). The Coop has yet to discover Dahlen.
Oops, yes.
(The Vets did elect more 19ers, but they plumbed for managers Hanlon and Selee. The Blue Ribbon Cmte of SABR members had recommended only Hulbert from management.)
--
SABR conventions always get a write-up in the local press, don't they?
Yes, often as not making fun of the organization and its members.
poorly dressed get-a-lifers.
HoMer voters can call themselves "a private group of baseball scholars, many of whom are members of the Society of American Baseball Research, who discuss the merits of ballplayers throughout history to create an alternative Hall of Fame. They've seen fit to award membership of their Hall of Merit to one of the great Tigers of the 1968 pennant winners, catcher Bill Freehan" etc. I can see/hear it now: “So, Joe, what other Tiger greats have made the Hall of Merit?” "Why did you draw a better conclusion to the Hall of Fame?"
It's crucial that the HOM is equivalent in size. I hope everyone includes that in outside HOM conversations. So Freehan takes the place of someone in the Coop, approximately. Without that point, who knows, you may be honoring everyone honored by any club or city.
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