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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Sunday, March 25, 20071996 Results: Hernandez, Keller and Wynn Win a Place in the Hall of Merit!In his first year of eligibility, St. Louis and NY star Keith Hernandez captured 50% of all possible points to win the top spot this election for the Hall of Merit. In his 40th year on the ballot, Yankee slugger Charlie Keller gained immortality with 34% of all possible points. Last but not least, power-hitting center fielder Jimmy Wynn picked up 32% of all possible points for induction in his 14th year of eligibility. Rounding out the top-ten were: Edd Roush, Nellie Fox, Jake Beckley, Pete Browning, Rollie Fingers, Tony Perez (first time in the top-ten!) and Cannonball Dick Redding. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Keith Hernandez 646 40 6 7 3 3 4 1 4 3 5 2 2 2 4 Charlie Keller 443 27 4 3 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 2 3 5 Jimmy Wynn 411 32 1 3 1 1 5 3 4 1 1 2 2 4 2 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 7 Edd Roush 391 25 2 1 5 2 4 1 1 3 1 2 3 5 6 Nellie Fox 383 24 4 1 2 3 2 2 3 1 1 1 2 2 6 9 Jake Beckley 348 24 3 3 1 1 2 1 1 3 1 2 2 1 3 7 8 Pete Browning 341 20 6 2 1 1 2 3 2 2 1 8 10 Rollie Fingers 332 22 2 2 2 1 2 2 1 2 1 1 3 2 1 9 12 Tony Perez 314 21 3 2 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 1 1 1 2 1 10 15 Cannonball Dick Redding 308 20 3 1 1 4 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 11 Charley Jones 307 19 2 5 1 2 1 2 1 1 3 1 12 14 Bucky Walters 299 20 1 2 5 1 2 2 3 1 1 2 13 13 Bob Johnson 286 19 1 3 3 1 1 2 1 3 1 1 2 14 17 Gavvy Cravath 278 21 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 4 1 4 1 1 15 18 Alejandro Oms 260 19 1 1 4 2 1 3 1 3 1 2 16 16 Hugh Duffy 258 17 1 3 1 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 17 19 Roger Bresnahan 244 18 2 2 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 18 20 George Van Haltren 221 14 3 2 2 2 1 1 2 1 19 27 Graig Nettles 179 15 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 20 21 Tommy Leach 179 13 1 2 1 3 2 1 2 1 21 23 Burleigh Grimes 164 12 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 22 26 Rusty Staub 163 12 2 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 23 22 Dizzy Dean 154 9 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 24 28 Luis Tiant 153 13 1 1 1 3 2 1 1 1 2 25 35 Mickey Welch 152 10 1 2 2 1 2 2 26 24 John McGraw 147 8 1 3 1 1 1 1 27 30 Norm Cash 144 11 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 2 28 29 Reggie Smith 141 10 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 29 32 Larry Doyle 132 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 30 41 Elston Howard 131 12 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 31 33 Bob Elliott 128 11 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 1 32 34 Phil Rizzuto 126 10 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 33 38 Vic Willis 125 10 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 34 37 Bobby Bonds 124 11 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 35 31 Orlando Cepeda 124 10 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 36 39 Dave Concepción 123 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 37 25 Lou Brock 122 9 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 38 36 Ken Singleton 115 10 1 1 1 4 1 1 1 39 40 Tommy Bridges 106 7 1 4 1 1 40 42 Dave Bancroft 85 8 1 2 1 2 2 41 49 Bill Monroe 77 7 1 1 1 2 2 42 50 Vern Stephens 75 6 1 1 1 2 1 43 48 Pie Traynor 73 6 1 1 1 1 2 44 44 Tommy John 72 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 45 53 Frank Howard 69 8 1 2 1 2 2 46 47 Ben Taylor 69 5 1 1 1 1 1 47 51 Chuck Klein 68 5 1 1 1 1 1 48 46 Carl Mays 67 5 1 1 1 1 1 49 57 Wally Schang 63 5 1 1 1 2 50 45 Addie Joss 62 4 1 1 1 1 51 43 Sal Bando 60 5 1 2 1 1 52 52 Buddy Bell 59 7 1 4 1 1 53 54T Ron Cey 59 5 1 1 1 1 1 54 59 Bruce Sutter 57 4 1 1 2 55 54T Ed Williamson 55 4 1 1 1 1 56 58 Bus Clarkson 53 4 1 1 1 1 57 60 Ed Cicotte 48 4 1 1 1 1 58 n/e Rick Reuschel 47 3 1 1 1 59 66 Urban Shocker 44 5 1 1 1 2 60T 71 Ernie Lombardi 42 4 1 1 2 60T 68 Jimmy Ryan 42 4 1 1 1 1 62T 61 Frank Chance 40 3 1 1 1 62T 67 Jim Kaat 40 3 1 1 1 64 76T Rabbit Maranville 39 4 1 1 1 1 65 72T Thurman Munson 37 4 1 1 1 1 66 64T Sam Rice 37 3 1 1 1 67 62 Fred Dunlap 37 2 1 1 68 64T Jim Rice 34 4 1 1 1 1 69 75 George J. Burns 33 4 2 1 1 70 70 Wilbur Cooper 33 2 1 1 71 81 Jack Quinn 29 2 1 1 72T 72T Luis Aparicio 28 2 1 1 72T 93T Leroy Matlock 28 2 1 1 74T 79 Don Newcombe 27 2 1 1 74T 63 Al Rosen 27 2 1 1 76 72T Dizzy Trout 26 2 1 1 77 78 Luke Easter 24 1 1 78T 56 Tony Oliva 23 2 1 1 78T 76T Gene Tenace 23 2 1 1 80T 69 Lefty Gomez 21 2 1 1 80T 82 Herman Long 21 2 1 1 80T 80 Tony Mullane 21 2 1 1 83T 88T Hack Wilson 18 2 1 1 83T 93T Bobby Veach 18 2 2 85 83T Fielder Jones 16 1 1 86T 83T Tony Lazzeri 15 1 1 86T 85 Sam Leever 15 1 1 88 87 Al Oliver 14 2 2 89 86 Artie Wilson 14 1 1 90T 88T Dutch Leonard 11 1 1 90T 93T Mickey Vernon 11 1 1 92 91T Kiki Cuyler 10 1 1 93T 93T George Kell 9 1 1 93T n/e Fred Lynn 9 1 1 95 97T Bill Madlock 8 1 1 96T 97T Steve Garvey 7 1 1 96T n/e Dick Lundy 7 1 1 96T 97T Bill Mazeroski 7 1 1 96T 91T Virgil Trucks 7 1 1 100 97T Toby Harrah 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Jose Cruz(101), Cecil Travis(88T). Ballots Cast: 54 John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: March 25, 2007 at 09:48 PM | 63 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:12 AM (#2318458)HOF-not-HOM through 1996
1 Aparicio, Luis
2. Bancroft, Dave
3. Beckley, Jake
4 Bender, Chief
5 Bottomley, Jim
6 Bresnahan, Roger
7 Brock, Lou
8 Chance, Frank
9 Chesbro, Jack
10 Combs, Earle
11 Cuyler, Kiki
12 Dandridge, Ray
13 Day, Leon
14 Dean, Dizzy
15 Duffy, Hugh
16 Evers, Johnny
17 Ferrell, Rick
18 Fingers, Rollie
19 Gomez, Lefty
20 Grimes, Burleigh
21 Hafey, Chick
22 Haines, Jesse
23 Hooper, Harry
24 Hoyt, Waite
25 Hunter, Catfish
26 Jackson, Travis
27 Johnson, Judy
28 Joss, Addie
29 Kell, George
30 Kelly, George
31 Klein, Chuck
32 Lazzeri, Tony
33 Lindstrom, Freddie
34 Lombardi, Ernie
35 Manush, Heinie
36 Maranville, Rabbit
37 Marquard, Rube
38 McCarthy, Tommy
39 McGraw, John
40 Pennock, Herb
41 Rice, Sam
42 Rizzuto, Phil
43 Roush, Edd
44 Schalk, Ray
45 Schoendienst, Red
46 Tinker, Joe
47 Traynor, Pie
48 Waner, Lloyd
49 Welch, Mickey
50 Willis, Vic
51 Wilson, Hack
52 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
1 Allen, Dick
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Boyer, Ken
6 Brown, Ray
7 Brown, Willard
8 Caruthers, Bob
9 Childs, Cupid
10 Dahlen, Bill
11 Davis, George
12 Doby, Larry
13 Evans, Darrell
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Freehan, Bill
16 Glasscock, Jack
17 Gordon, Joe
18 Gore, George
19 Grant, Frank
20 Grich, Bobby
21 Groh, Heinie
22 Hack, Stan
23 Hernandez, Keith
24 Hill, Pete
25 Hines, Paul
26 Jackson, Joe*
27 Johnson, Home Run
28 Keller, Charlie
29 Mackey. Biz
30 Magee, Sherry
31 McPhee, Bid
32 McVey, Cal
33 Méndez, José
34 Minoso, Minnie
35 Moore, Dobie
36 Niekro, Phil
37 Pearce, Dickey
38 Pierce, Billy
39 Pike, Lip
40 Richardson, Hardy
41 Rogan, Bullet Joe
42 Rose, Pete*
43 Santo, Ron
44 Santop, Louis
45 Sheckard, Jimmy
46 Simmons, Ted
47 Start, Joe
48 Stearnes, Turkey
49 Stovey, Harry
50 Suttles, Mule
51 Sutton, Don
52 Sutton, Ezra
53 Torre, Joe
54 Trouppe, Quincy
55 Torriente, Cristobal
56 Wells, Willie
57 White, Deacon
58 Williams, Smokey Joe
59 Wilson, Jud
60 Wynn, Jimmy
* not eligible for the HOF
Get out and sharpen your knives, partisans of each candidate.
(got to do it twice just like in the movie :-)
Discuss.
Congrats to Beckley for clearing the 25,000-pt mark. Will he make it to 26,000?... C Jones up 1 to 11th, Bresnahan up 2 to 14th, Leach up 1 to 16th.. Roush climbs into top 20, but he may be running out of time.... Keller departs at 6424 with 17 'active' candidates ahead of him.. JWynn departs with 23 'active' candidates ahead of him. They lift Joss and Dean into the 'active' top 25. Am I missing anyone? Fingers?
TOP 25, ALL-TIME
BECKLEY.... 25219
VAN HALTREN 24557.5
DUFFY...... 24158.5
BROWNING... 21829.5
Childs..... 18484
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976
WELCH...... 16694
REDDING.... 14440
CJONES..... 14074
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
BRESNAHAN.. 12799
Sewell..... 12769
TLEACH..... 12712
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
RYAN....... 12264.5
ROUSH...... 11649
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Cravath 8818, Doyle 8295, Walters 8095, Grimes 7683, Fox 7216, Monroe 6879, Oms 6190, BJohnson 6098, Schang 5886, McGraw 5832, Williamson 5755, Willis 4267, Joss 4015, Dean 3846)
not quite
Elliott 3716
We knew it was coming this time. We had an extra week to discuss. A couple people even warned that a KH induction was imminent with a week of discussion to go. No one objected.
Discuss.
Premise: keith hernandez is a HOMer.
1) Bill Terry is a fully qualified HOMer.
2) Bill Terry is a few slots above the in/out line at his position.
3) Keith Hernandez is above the in/out line.
4) Hernandez is closer to Terry than the line.
5) Hernandez is a HOMer.
At the time I poo-pooed Terry. And I did for years after. I'm glad to say that I have the flexibility to change my mind. I changed my mind, and now I'm fine with it, just as I am with Hernandez entering on whichever year's ballot he goes in on.
Among 1Bs, Tony Perez really needs more discussion, he's a potential mistake in the making. Perez, Beckley, Cash, and Taylor need to be compare/contrasted before we elect any of them.
How does 1996 compare to 1968?
1968: Eppa Rixey, Richie Ashburn, Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith, George Van Haltren, Cool Papa Bell, George Sisler, Bobby Doerr, Jake Beckley, Willard Brown, Dobie Moore, Hugh Duffy, Joe Sewell, Cupid Childs, Pete Browning, Jose Mendez, Joe Gordon, Alejandro Oms, Mickey Welch, Charley Jones, Roger Bresnahan, Tommy Leach, Burleigh Grimes, Edd Roush, Larry Doyle, Gavvy Cravath, Wally Schang and Ernie Lombardi
1996: Keith Hernandez, Charlie Keller, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush, Nellie Fox, Jake Beckley, Pete Browning, Rollie Fingers, Tony Perez, Dick Redding, Charley Jones, Bob Johnson, Gavvy Cravath, Hugh Duffy, Roger Bresnahan, Dizzy Dean, Luis Tiant, Mickey Welch, John McGraw, Larry Doyle, Lou Brock, Pie Traynor, Wally Schang, Rick Reuschel, Fred Dunlap, Wilbur Cooper and Luke Easter.
13 members of the class of '68 have since been elected (including the two that were elected that year). 10 others are still receiving first place votes as of '96 (Beckley, Bresnahan, Browning, Cravath, Doyle, Duffy, C Jones, Roush, Schang and Welch) while 5 others are still around but didn't pick up a top slot this time (Grimes, Leach, Lombardi, Oms and Van Haltren).
Except that Hernandez had 3 more seasons at the All-star level, which is a lot.
The interesting thing about that is that Terry was still a star at 36, while Keith's last star season was at 33. Terry got started very late; his first star season is at age 28 in 1927, Hernandez was a star at age 23 in 1977.
Does anyone have access to Terry's minor league stats? Is he a candidate for minor-league credit? Or was he one of McGraw's personal projects? Did that combined with the presence of High-Pockets Kelly interfere with Terry's development?
This is the second 'pet' candidate of mine that has been elected and it may be the last for a while. And while I was only one of many who voted for Hughie Jennings (as well as someone who was late ot the party) I feel that I had a hand in getting Keller elected. At least I feel I was one of the first who voted for him. This may sound like self important bragging, but hey it feels good.
Is that a record?
Re: Bill Terry and early career:
At the age of 16, he played 8 games as a pitcher with Newnan in the Georgia-Alabama league in 1915. He went 7-1 but I have no other numbers.
1916: Shreveport in the Texas League, 19 games as a pitcher, 84 IP, 6-2, 1.07 ERA, hit .241.
1917: Shreveport again, 40 games as a pitcher, 246 IP, 14-11, 3.00 ERA, 81/116 K/BB (yes 35 more walks than strikeouts), 55 games in OF, hit .231 with ISO of about .115
1918: semi-pro
1919: semi-pro
1920: semi-pro
1921: semi-pro
1922: age 23, Toledo, American Assoc, 88 games at first, hit .336, slugged .596
1923: age 24, Toledo again, 109 games at first, hit .377, slugged .585. Called up/purchased something or other to the Giants where he played 3 games. George Kelly was the Giants first baseman. He led the league in assists at first 1920-1922. In 1923, Kelly was 6th in HR, 4th in RBI in the league. In 1921, Kelly was 3rd in Slg, 2nd in Dbl, 2nd in TB, 1st in HR, 2nd in RBI, 6th in OPS+. 1922, 10th in SLG, 8th in DBL, 3rd in HR, 4th in RBI.
1924: age 25, 35 games at first, hit .239 while Kelly was 6th in SLG, 4th in TB, 3rd in DBL, 4th in HR, 1st in RBI, and 6th in OPS+.
1925: Terry, age 26 is made regular first baseman while Kelly is moved to 2b. Kelly has similar range to Frankie Frisch and a better fielding percentage. Kelly and Terry have similar OPS+: 111 and 119.
What did McGraw see after 1924 to make him move Kelly to 2nd to start Terry at 1st? As to Terry's minor league career, it doesn't look like he deserves any credit to me.
Highest possible consensus score: -1.
Chris Cobb: -11
Howie Menckel: -11
andrew siegel: -12
Esteban Rivera: -12
Mark Shirk: -12
Trevor P: -13
favre: -13
mulder & scully: -13
John Murphy: -13
...
Thane of Bagarth: -18
'zop: -19 (medians)
...
OCF: -20
...
KJOK: -24
jimd: -24
Chris Fluit: -24
Dan R: -25
Joe Dimino: -25 (Rick Reuschel?)
Michael Bass: -26
Eric Chalek: -26
EricC: -27
rico vanian: -27
yest: -31
karlmagnus: -32
That's me sliding below average: I had Hernandez and Wynn high on my ballot, but I was not on board with electing Keller, never have been. And then, look at who's 4 though 11? Roush, Fox, Beckley, Browning, Fingers, Perez, Redding, Jones - I'm not voting for any of them in my top 15. My consensus score will sink further before it recovers.
Of course, I think I know what I'm doing; it's the rest of you who are out of touch.
The results were interesting, seeing how and where the tides turned.
Another interesting point: Luke Easter featured on only 1 ballot. And he came in first. Has that ever happened before?
Anyway, without further ado, the 1996 election race, tale of the tape:
through 5 ballots (JM, Daryn, Rusty Priske, rawagman and Dl from MN: 1) Beckley - 60 2) Hernandez - 56 3) Perez - 55 4) Welch - 50 5) Fox - 44
through 10 ballots (Juan V., Jim Sp, AJM, karlmagnus, ronw): 1) Hernandez - 133 2) Beckley - 107 3) Perez - 102 4) Fox - 78 5) Johnson - 77
through 15 ballots (favre, Mark Donelson, Adam Schafer, Chris Fluit, Thane of Bagarth): 1) Hernandez - 179 2) Fox - 142 3) Beckley - 139 4) Perez - 125 5) Cravath - 118
through 20 ballots (Howie Menckel, Got Melky?, Rick A., Al Peterson, Rob_Wood) 1) Hernandez - 216 2) Beckley - 187 3) Fox - 179 4) Browning - 147 5) Jones - 145 6) Perez - 139 7) Johnson - 138 T10) Cravath - 118 26) Welch - 61
through 25 ballots (OCF, TomH, rico vanian, Eric Chalek, DanG) 1) Hernandez - 297 2) Beckley - 232 3) Fox - 203 4) Perez - 171 5) Walters - 170 6) Johnson - 154 8) Browning - 147 9) Jones - 145 12) Cravath - 136 30) Welch - 61
through 30 ballots (jimd, Brent, Sean Gilman, Chris Cobb, dan b) 1) Hernandez - 399 2) Beckley - 244 3) Wynn - 225 4) Fox - 224 5) Walters - 222 7) Perez - 193 9) Jones - 175 T10) Browning - 171 12) Johnson - 154 T13) Cravath - 147 30) Welch - 70
through 35 ballots (Jeff M, Mark Shirk, Patrick W, Andrew M, SWW) 1) Hernandez - 444 2) Fox - 280 3) Wynn - 278 4) Keller - 247 T5) Walters - 245 T5) Perez - 245 7) Beckley - 244 T9) Browning - 209 11) Jones - 198 15) Johnson - 168 16) Cravath - 160 34) Welch - 70
through 40 ballots (Devin McCullen, Tiboreau, sunnyday2, 'zop, andrew siegel) 1) Hernandez - 493 2) Keller - 349 3) Wynn - 342 4) Roush - 312 5) Fox - 288 6) Beckley - 264 7) Perez - 258 8) Walters - 255 T9) Browning - 234 12) Jones - 217 15) Cravath - 203 16) Johnson - 194 38) Welch - 70
through 45 ballots (mulder & scully, Ken Fischer, DavidFoss, Joe Dimino, Mike Webber) 1) Hernandez - 546 2) Keller - 398 3) Wynn - 380 4) Roush - 353 5) Fox - 311 6) Beckley - 291 8) Perez - 281 9) Walters - 272 10) Browning - 264 11) Cravath - 263 13) Jones - 250 16) Johnson - 205 27) Welch - 117
through 50 ballots (Esteban Rivera, Michael Bass, EricC, Trevor P., yest) 1) Hernandez - 598 2) Keller - 420 3) Wynn - 402 4) Roush - 391 5) Fox - 366 6) Beckley - 342 7) Perez - 307 8) Browning - 302 10) Walters - 286 12) Jones - 267 13) Cravath - 263 15) Johnson - 252 24) Welch - 142
through 54 ballots (Don F, Dan R, Max Parkinson, KJOK) - see final results.
5 ballots later, as Jake Beckley's chance began to fade, Keller edged ahead him as well as Walters and Perez into 4th place. His surge continued between ballots 35-40. Nellie Fox received 1 vote (13 place - 8 points) while Keller gained 102 points and moved into second place, where he would coast to immortality.
There is another added to the 'in the HoM but will never get in my PHoM' group.
Joe Dimino: -25 (Rick Reuschel?)
Michael Bass: -26
Eric Chalek: -26
EricC: -27
rico vanian: -27
Wow, that's stunning. I haven't been a CS bottom-trawler in, what, a couple-three decades? But more episodes of Matlock mean more bad consensus scores. Well that, and having like only Roush and Hernandez on my ballot among the top 10s. Zowee.
But it's very cool that the two Eric Cs are side by side. Also funny that Dan R and Joe D (the guys with the two most comprehensive systems in our group) are also producing very low consensus scores. There's something about that that we might all want to consider. As for Michael and Rico, hey guys, thanks for joining me in the Karl Yestus Memorial Super-Low Consensus Clubhouse!!!! Hey, wait, where's Gilman? He's my best-ever CS pal and should be enjoying this moment with me....
As for me, still in the boring middle, not even worthy of a mention ;-(
One of the top 3, 4 of 10 and just 5 of 15 on my ballot. You'd think that would get a guy a seat in the doctor karl yestus club, but no.
You did, but as you note, your drive to consensus-mavenhood rolls on. Listen, Sunny, you got to find a couple more 1-vote or 2-vote guys for your ballot to bring you back to your inconoclastic days of yore. I've got a couple lefty pitchers in mind that might help you out....
The following players have received 100 points in any election, but are still knocking at the door:
P (current)
Rollie Fingers
Dick Redding
Bucky Walters
Burleigh Grimes
Dizzy Dean
Luis Tiant
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Tommy Bridges
P (past)
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Addie Joss
Eddie Cicotte
Urban Shocker
Carl Mays
C (current)
Roger Bresnahan
Elston Howard
C (past)
Wally Schang
1B (current)
Jake Beckley
Tony Perez
Norm Cash
Orlando Cepeda
1B (past)
Frank Chance
2B (current)
Nellie Fox
Larry Doyle
2B (past)
Fred Dunlap
Bill Monroe
3B (current)
Graig Nettles
Tommy Leach
John McGraw
Bob Elliott
3B (past)
Ed Williamson
Lave Cross
Pie Traynor
SS (current)
Phil Rizzuto
Dave Concepcion
SS (past)
Dick Lundy
LF (current)
Charley Jones
Bob Johnson
Lou Brock
LF (past)
Tip O'Neill
Bobby Veach
George J. Burns
CF (current)
Edd Roush
Pete Browning
Alejandro Oms
Hugh Duffy
George Van Haltren
CF (past)
Mike Griffin
Jimmy Ryan
Fielder Jones
Spotswood Poles
RF (current)
Gavy Cravath
Rusty Staub
Reggie Smith
Bobby Bonds
Ken Singleton
RF (past)
Mike Tiernan
Harry Hooper
Sam Rice
You must have overlooked Matlock and W Cooper, right? I mean they always pull 100 points which is why I'm the new Howie Menkel.
I believe Dobie Moore holds the record with 30% in 1991. Not surprisingly, he was the last HoMer prior to Wynn who I didn't support.
In the 1996 election we obliterated the record for most players receiving at least 4.5% support with 53, beating the total of 48 in 1988 and 1991. We also had 35 guys with at least 9.5% support, passing the record of 34 in 1971 and 1975.
I haven't carped for awhile, so here goes. To me, it is a flaw in our system of voting that players can be elected with a minority of support from the electorate. We didn't have to let it get this way.[/carp]
At least we don't toss it to the senate to pick the winner.
Too big a subject to extensively discuss at this date, IMHO.
Just another thing on my list of "Things We'll Do Better Next Time."
Edd Roush
Nellie Fox
Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Rollie Fingers
Tony Perez
Cannonball Dick Redding
Charley Jones
Bucky Walters
Bob Johnson
Gavvy Cravath
Alejandro Oms
Hugh Duffy
Roger Bresnahan
George Van Haltren
Graig Nettles
Tommy Leach
Burleigh Grimes
Rusty Staub
Dizzy Dean
Luis Tiant
Mickey Welch
John McGraw
Norm Cash
Reggie Smith
Larry Doyle
Elston Howard
Bob Elliott
Phil Rizzuto
Vic Willis
Bobby Bonds
Orlando Cepeda
Dave Concepción
Lou Brock
Ken Singleton
Tommy Bridges
Dave Bancroft
Bill Monroe
Vern Stephens
Pie Traynor
Tommy John
Frank Howard
Ben Taylor
Chuck Klein
Carl Mays
Wally Schang
Addie Joss
I suspect you have had (or will have) a few from your own ballots near the bottom of that list, Dan. ;-)
I'll correct the top of this page in regard to Wynn in a moment. Thanks!
For sure. I've supported most of the light-on-support HoMers.
And Wally Berger not among them after all :-)
--
1925: Terry, age 26 is made regular first baseman while Kelly is moved to 2b. Kelly has similar range to Frankie Frisch and a better fielding percentage. Kelly and Terry have similar OPS+: 111 and 119.
What did McGraw see after 1924 to make him move Kelly to 2nd to start Terry at 1st?
1926 looks like age 20 Freddie Lindstrom had won a regular job and age 27 Bill Terry had not.
McGraw made that 1925 move with MVP-caliber Frankie Frisch at 2B. Did he finally realize that 3B Heinie Groh was below Giant standard? Or was Groh unable to play in October? Rookie Freddie Lindstrom famously played 3B in the World Series --short of his 19th birthday, not McGraw's favorite practice. In 1925 Frisch played the field but by 1926 Lindstrom-Jackson-Frisch. The neatest story (easy for some to confirm or correct) is that Frisch started the season at 3B because Groh had lost a job and Lindstrom not yet won one. Supposing that McGraw felt secure with Travis Jackson as his shortstop by 1924, then his problem may be interpreted: how to complement Jackson-Frisch-Kelly with one or more of Groh, Lindstrom, and Terry.
The whole six-pack celebrated birthdays in Sep-Oct-Nov. Ages roughly at the 1924 World Series, "left to right" on the infield spectrum:
Groh 35, Lindstrom 19, Jackson 21, Frisch 26, Kelly 29, Terry 26
You know, you can read a lot about these guys if you read in the right places.
Cooperstown elected five, not Groh because he was a bit Giant.
8. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:46 PM (#2318488)
Wow. I can't say I have any issues with it, but I am surprised.
9. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2318489)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry
Discuss.
The two men who surprised Joe Dimino? That doesn't make discussion, I concede.
The group judges Hernandez to be excellent to historically great in the field, Terry one tier below that. Someone wrote last week that Terry was a great batter, much better than Hernandez, but I doubt that is a common opinion. Each was a difficult person, according to some contemporaries.
First basemen elected partly for their fielding may be enough to call them peas in a pod here.
And Wally Berger not among them after all :-)
--
1925: Terry, age 26 is made regular first baseman while Kelly is moved to 2b. Kelly has similar range to Frankie Frisch and a better fielding percentage. Kelly and Terry have similar OPS+: 111 and 119.
What did McGraw see after 1924 to make him move Kelly to 2nd to start Terry at 1st?
1926 looks like age 20 Freddie Lindstrom had won a regular job and age 27 Bill Terry had not.
McGraw made that 1925 move with MVP-caliber Frankie Frisch at 2B. Did he finally realize that 3B Heinie Groh was below Giant standard? Or was Groh unable to play in October? Rookie Freddie Lindstrom famously played 3B in the World Series --short of his 19th birthday, not McGraw's favorite practice. In 1925 Frisch played the field but by 1926 Lindstrom-Jackson-Frisch. The neatest story (easy for some to confirm or correct) is that Frisch started the season at 3B because Groh had lost a job and Lindstrom not yet won one. Supposing that McGraw felt secure with Travis Jackson as his shortstop by 1924, then his problem may be interpreted: how to complement Jackson-Frisch-Kelly with one or more of Groh, Lindstrom, and Terry.
The whole six-pack celebrated birthdays in Sep-Oct-Nov. Ages roughly at the 1924 World Series, "left to right" on the infield spectrum:
Groh 35, Lindstrom 19, Jackson 21, Frisch 26, Kelly 29, Terry 26
You know, you can read a lot about these guys if you read in the right places.
Cooperstown elected five, not Groh because he was a bit Giant.
8. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:46 PM (#2318488)
Wow. I can't say I have any issues with it, but I am surprised.
9. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2318489)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry
Discuss.
The two men who surprised Joe Dimino? That doesn't make discussion, I concede.
The group judges Hernandez to be excellent to historically great in the field, Terry one tier below that. Someone wrote last week that Terry was a great batter, much better than Hernandez, but I doubt that is a common opinion. Each was a difficult person, according to some contemporaries.
First basemen elected partly for their fielding may be enough to call them peas in a pod here.
That may be a single day record.
Does anyone have the HOF-not-HOM or HOM-not-HOF organized chronologically rather than alphabetically? For forty years! I had the HOM marked in my Master table but the number of Negro Leaguers, who are not in the table to be marked, overwhelmed me.
<u>pitch</u>
Fingers
Redding
Walters
<u>C3S2field</u>
Fox
Bresnahan
<u>bat</u>
Roush (CF)
Beckley (1b)
Browning (cf)
Perez (1b)
Jones (cf)
Johnson
Cravath
Oms (CF)
Duffy (cf)
Van Haltren (CF)
cf (lowercase) - 25-50% of games
Perez played almost 30% 3b, same as Jones cf
I think this is complete. I have 59 players in the HOF as of 2007 who are eligible for the HoM as of 1997.
Welch
McCarthy
Duffy
Beckley
Willis
Chesbro
Chance
Bresnahan
Tinker
Evers
Joss
Bender
Marquard
Hooper
Taylor B
Schalk
Youngs
Roush
Bancroft
G. Kelly
Maranville
S. Rice
Grimes
Pennock
Cooper A
H. Wilson
Combs
Traynor
T. Jackson
Lindstrom
Bottomley
Haines
Hafey
Cuyler
Hoyt
J. Johnson
Manush
Lazzeri
Dean
L. Waner
Gomez
Klein
R. Ferrell
Lombardi
H. Smith
Dandridge
L. Day
Rizzuto
Kell
Schoendienst
Fox
Mazeroski
Aparicio
Cepeda
Hunter
Brock
Fingers
Perez
Sutter
HOM not HOF by "category".
Old-Timers (19th Century MLB)
Negro Leaguers
Veterans (20th Century, VC eligible by 1996)
Active (BBWAA eligible in 1996, possibly dropped by 5% rule)
They are listed chronologically within category by HOM election date
(which makes them roughly chronological by playing date, excepting stragglers).
Those in caps I boldly predict will be elected to the HOF within the next decade or so.
***
HOM not HOF 60 (41/19)
Old-Timers: 18 (16/2)
White Hines Gore Barnes Glasscock
Richardson ESutton Start MCPHEE McVey
DAVIS Dahlen Stovey Bennett Caruthers
Pearce Pike Childs
Negro Leaguers: 18 (4/14)
GJohnson GRANT HILL SANTOP JWILLIAMS
TORRIENTE ROGAN STEARNES WILSON WELLS
RBROWN SUTTLES Beckwith MACKEY WBROWN
MENDEZ Moore Trouppe
Veterans: 12 (11/1)
Magee JJackson Sheckard Groh Ferrell
Hack Gordon DOBY Pierce Minoso
Boyer Keller
Active: 12 (10/2)
Santo Allen Torre Freehan Grich
Rose NIEKRO Simmons DSUTTON Evans
Hernandez JWynn
PEARCE
MCVEY
BARNES R
START
PIKE L
SUTTON E
WHITE DEA
HINES
RICHARDSON H
GORE
STOVEY
CARUTHERS
BENNETT
GLASSCOCK
CHILDS
DAHLEN
SHECKARD
JOHNSON HR
MAGEE
JACKSON J
MOORE DOB
GROH
BECKWITH
FERRELL W
HACK
GORDON J
KELLER
TROUPPE
PIERCE
MINOSO
BOYER K
SANTO
FREEHAN
TORRE
ALLEN R
WYNN J
ROSE
GRICH
SIMMONS T
EVANS DA
HERNANDEZ K
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Willie McCovey, Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Catfish Hunter, Ray Dandridge
1988
Willie Stargell
1989
Johnny Bench, Carl Yastrzemski, Red Schoendienst
1990
Jim Palmer , Joe Morgan
1991
Rod Carew, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri
1992
Tom Seaver, Rollie Fingers, Hal Newhouser
1993
Reggie Jackson
1994
Steve Carlton, Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Mike Schmidt, Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Phil Niekro, Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
Don Sutton, George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Tony Perez, Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
You're missing Bruce Sutter on that list.
Between his retirement and the revision of Veterans elections in his favor, beside his own election in 1990 and Rod Carew's in 1991, he saw 2Bmen Doerr, Schoendienst, Lazzeri, Fox, McPhee, and Mazeroski enrolled. When he retired there were eight 2B and eight 3B in the Hall. By 2001 the numbers were 16 and 10 (Dandridge & Schmidt).
(Maybe I have erred. I have no 2Bman from the Negro Leagues here.)
--
derived from jimd #50
HOM as of 1996, not HOF as of 2007, in rough chron order
20th century MLB (21)
Sheckard, Magee
JJackson, Groh
FERRELL, Hack, Gordon
Keller
Minoso, PIERCE, Boyer
Torre, Santo, Allen, Freehan, Rose, JWynn
Simmons, Grich, DaEvans, Hernandez
These are the 27 fellows who are in the HOF, but didn't even get a point in this Hall of Merit voting:
Bender, Chief
Bottomley, Jim
Chesbro, Jack
Combs, Earle
Cooper, Andy
Dandridge, Ray
Day, Leon
Evers, Johnny
Ferrell, Rick
Hafey, Chick
Haines, Jesse
Hooper, Harry
Hoyt, Waite
Hunter, Catfish
Jackson, Travis
Johnson, Judy
Kelly, George
Lindstrom, Freddie
Manush, Heinie
Marquard, Rube
McCarthy, Tommy
Pennock, Herb
Schalk, Ray
Schoendienst, Red
Tinker, Joe
Waner, Lloyd
Youngs, Ross
Top non-Hall of Fame candidates for the Hall of Merit, with 1996 HOM voting rank in parentheses: Pete Browning (7th), Dick Redding (10th), Charley Jones (11th), Bucky Walters (12th), Bob Johnson (13th), Gavvy Cravath (14th), Alejandro Oms (15th), George Van Haltren (18th), Graig Nettles (19th), Tommy Leach (20th), Rusty Staub (22nd), Luis Tiant (24th), Norm Cash (27th), Reggie Smith (28th), Larry Doyle (29th), Elston Howard (30th), Bob Elliott (31st), Bobby Bonds (34th), Dave Concepcion (36th), Ken Singleton (38th), Tommy Bridges (39th).
If Tinker & Evers will finish 101st & 102nd one of these fortnights, it will be a good list. Given the discussion here about 80 years ago, I expected that Tinker would be on some ballots. Some believe that he was a "historically great" shortstop, as we say. As for maybe Dandridge, Schalk and Schoendienst on that list.
I don't know that he deserves a 101st place finish some fortnight, but I know Tinker deserves a comment on his own thread --from before the days of introductory references in article #1 by John Murphy.
thanks
And he may be on some PHOM but below ballot lists
Oops, I misread #56 as no votes for this (unique) Hall of Merit rather than no votes in this 1996 election.
Leon Day and Hilton Smith (two pitchers, two of the last Negro Leagues players elected by the old Veterans Cmte) are almost unmentioned here. For many participants, I suppose, they are clearly outside the consideration set "at rough MLE" if not "at first glance". In 1995-2001, the special ballot years, there was some grumbling that the old Veterans were considering only Negro Leaguers young enough (albeit deceased) that Buck O'N played with them. "Everyone" believed there were greater players, not yet honored, one or two ballplaying generations older.
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