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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, July 09, 20072001 Results: Three W’s Make It Into the Hall of Merit: Winfield, Whitaker and Willie!In his first year of eligibility, strong-armed slugger Dave Winfied sailed into the Hall of Merit with an impressive 95% of all possible points. Star second baseman Lou Whitaker, another newbie, received strong support from the electorate with 77% of all possible points. Last but not least, Yankee great Willie Randolph did the squeezing out this time (unlike in our last election when Fingers won by a nose over him) when he bested 19th century batsman Pete Browning (does he finally make it in 2002 after over 100 years of eligibility?) Willie received 28% of all possible points in his 4th year of eligibility. Rounding out the top-ten were: Dave Stieb, Charley Jones, Cannonball Dick Redding, Roger Bresnahan, Bob Johnson and Hugh Duffy. A record 101 candidates were named on a ballot this election, breaking the 1995-96 mark of 100. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Dave Winfield 1065 47 27 12 3 2 1 1 1 2 n/e Lou Whitaker 874 44 8 17 4 1 1 5 4 1 1 1 1 3 3T Willie Randolph 318 26 1 1 4 4 2 3 2 5 2 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 6 Pete Browning 316 20 1 3 3 1 1 1 3 3 1 2 1 5 7 Dave Stieb 271 21 2 4 1 3 3 1 3 3 1 6 8 Charley Jones 256 17 3 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 5 Cannonball Dick Redding 253 16 2 4 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 8 9 Roger Bresnahan 252 19 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 2 9 13 Bob Johnson 251 18 2 2 4 1 2 2 2 2 1 10 12 Hugh Duffy 224 16 1 2 2 2 2 1 1 3 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 11 Bucky Walters 220 15 1 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 12 n/e Kirby Puckett 205 16 1 4 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 13 14 Gavvy Cravath 204 16 1 2 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 14 10 Tony Perez 196 14 1 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 15 15 Alejandro Oms 177 14 1 1 2 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 16 16 George Van Haltren 153 11 2 2 1 3 2 1 17 17 Tommy Leach 152 11 3 3 2 3 18 22 John McGraw 150 9 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 19 26 Luis Tiant 142 13 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 3 2 20 30 Tommy Bridges 138 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 21 18 Graig Nettles 132 13 1 1 3 2 3 1 2 22 29 Dizzy Dean 128 8 3 1 1 1 1 1 23 21 Reggie Smith 125 11 1 4 1 1 3 1 24 32 Bus Clarkson 125 8 2 2 1 1 1 1 25T 23 Lou Brock 123 8 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 25T 27T Mickey Welch 123 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 27 20 Phil Rizzuto 120 10 1 3 1 1 2 1 1 28 33 Burleigh Grimes 118 10 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 29 36T Orlando Cepeda 115 10 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 30 38 Dave Concepción 106 8 1 1 3 1 1 1 31T 19 Ken Singleton 101 9 1 1 1 2 2 2 31T 24 Rusty Staub 101 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 33 27T Norm Cash 99 8 2 1 1 2 2 34 25 Larry Doyle 97 7 1 3 1 1 1 35 34 Dale Murphy 95 10 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 36 31 Vic Willis 91 8 1 1 2 3 1 37 35 Bobby Bonds 89 9 1 2 1 1 2 2 38 43 Ben Taylor 81 7 1 1 1 2 2 39 39 Bob Elliott 79 8 1 2 1 1 2 1 40 52 Pie Traynor 77 7 1 1 2 1 2 41 47 Dave Bancroft 76 6 1 1 1 2 1 42 36T Elston Howard 69 7 1 1 1 1 1 2 43 49 Wally Schang 69 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 44T 41 Tommy John 66 5 1 1 1 1 1 44T 48 Chuck Klein 66 5 1 1 1 2 46 42 Carl Mays 64 5 2 1 1 1 47T 51 Bill Monroe 59 5 1 1 1 1 1 47T 40 Vern Stephens 59 5 1 2 1 1 49 n/e Don Mattingly 53 5 1 1 3 50 50 Sal Bando 50 5 1 1 2 1 51 n/e Lance Parrish 45 4 1 1 2 52 45T Addie Joss 45 3 1 1 1 53 45T Ed Williamson 44 3 1 1 1 54 70T Frank Chance 43 4 1 1 1 1 55 57 Wilbur Cooper 43 3 1 1 1 56 64T George J. Burns 42 4 1 3 57 58 Lefty Gomez 42 3 2 1 58 54 Buddy Bell 40 4 2 1 1 59 44 Frank Tanana 38 3 1 1 1 60 75 Tony Oliva 38 2 1 1 61 56 Ernie Lombardi 37 3 1 1 1 62T 81 Thurman Munson 34 3 1 2 62T 59T Don Newcombe 34 3 1 1 1 64 53 Sam Rice 33 3 1 1 1 65T 73 Tony Mullane 32 3 1 1 1 65T 82T Urban Shocker 32 3 1 1 1 67 68T Johnny Pesky 30 3 1 1 1 68 64T Rick Reuschel 30 2 1 1 69 63 Rabbit Maranville 29 3 1 1 1 70 66 Jimmy Ryan 26 2 2 71T 55 Jim Rice 23 3 1 1 1 71T 80 Bobby Veach 23 3 2 1 73T n/e Jack Quinn 23 2 1 1 73T 68T Bruce Sutter 23 2 1 1 75 67 Jack Clark 22 2 1 1 76 62 Ed Cicotte 22 1 1 77 61 Frank Howard 19 2 1 1 78 74 Dave Parker 18 2 2 79 87T Al Rosen 17 2 1 1 80 77T Luis Aparicio 17 1 1 81 77T Carlos Morán 16 1 1 82 76 Ron Cey 15 2 1 1 83 77T Brian Downing 15 1 1 84T n/e Bill Mazeroski 14 1 1 84T 70T Dizzy Trout 14 1 1 86 59T Jim Kaat 12 1 1 87T 72 Hack Wilson 11 1 1 87T 85T Tony Lazzeri 11 1 1 87T 82T Sam Leever 11 1 1 90T 85T Fielder Jones 10 1 1 90T 82T Leroy Matlock 10 1 1 92T 87T Fred Dunlap 9 1 1 92T 87T Jack Morris 9 1 1 94T n/e Jim Fregosi 8 1 1 94T 87T George Kell 8 1 1 96T 91T Bill Madlock 7 1 1 96T n/e Levi Meyerle 7 1 1 96T 91T Mickey Vernon 7 1 1 99T n/e Dick Lundy 6 1 1 99T 93T Al Oliver 6 1 1 99T n/e Mike Tiernan 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Charlie Hough(93T), Dutch Leonard(95T), Gene Tenace(95T). Ballots Cast: 47 Thanks to OCF and Ron Wargo for double-checking the tally. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: July 09, 2007 at 12:56 AM | 124 comment(s)
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Absolutely. I couldn't care less about creating the illusion of "consensus". I'd rather honor a candidate some of us think is great (even though I may not, like Jake Beckley) than one we all agree is mediocre. That's why the HOM ballot was designed with an "elect-me" bonus in the first place, IIRC.
Seconded.
The only candidates which truly have "majority support" are those which have gotten a majority of the possible "votes-to-elect". That's about half the HOM.
A 15th place vote on a ballot does not indicate "support". It indicates a ranking of 15th place on this ballot, no more and no less. The only differences between it and a 16th place vote is that the 15th place vote is required by our ballot rules and the 16th place vote is not, and the 15th place vote gets some points in the tally and the 16th does not.
We have no mechanism to indicate such non-support.
One such mechanism might be to ratify the results after each election. An "aye or nay" vote to accept the result. A "ratified" result would have the acceptance of a majority of the electorate. If the result is not acceptable to the majority of the electorate, then a runoff (or series of them) could be held until an acceptable result is produced. If no such result is found, then we would declare deadlock, and close the project. This would allow the electorate to "veto" an electee should a renegade group of voters be seen to commandeer the HOM electoral process.
Another way to look at it would say that I "support" those candidates who are in my personal hall of merit and not in the HoM. For me, in recent elections that's been about 20 candidates. That's an argument for an expanded ballot.
1. Addie Joss
2. Chuck Klein
3. Hack Wilson
4. George Kell
5. Sam Rice
and these are in my pHoM
1. George Burns
2. Rabbit Maranville
3. Levi Meyerle
4. Jimmy Ryan
5. Bobby Veach
and these players are amongsst those who I feel have a possible shot at my pHoM without a tremendous amount of new information
1. Wilbur Cooper
2. Lefty Gomez
3. Dave Bancroft
4. Sam Leever
5. Ernie Lombardi
6. Carl Mays
7. Tony Mullane
8. Johnny Pesky
9. Urban Shocker
10. Mike Tiernan
11. Ed Williamson
you can gauss what I hold on player eleminations
The backloggers are what we thought they were. They're what we thought they were. We ranked them in the discussion thread, and who the hell takes the second week of the discussion thread like it's bull****? BULL****! We ranked them in the prelims, everybody filled out 15 spots...THE BACKLOGGERS ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE! And that's why we filled out the damn ballots! Now (slaps his mouse away) if you wanna un-crown 'em, then un-crown their a**! BUT THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE and we gotta get them right!
For a hall this size (and this size only - I don't want to hear about a 20-man hall :-), even if you wouldn't have had placed him on your ballot, Chris (and I didn't, BTW), is he that far off from the borderline? That's why I don't get too crazy about someone that I don't support going in. They either had a great peak, prime or career to push them into induction.
Same here. Any proposal to expand the ballot or limit candidates has NOTHING to do with creating this illusion. It has to do with avoiding electing someone whose weak support is not accurately measured by our system.
This is exactly where the danger is. When a particular strain of analysis enjyos great popularity, it can lead some to a false conclusion of greatness.
Isn't that how the HOM works. You know, considering every candidate is subject to a popular vote?
The HOM itself is a more accurate barometer of "greatness" than any of our individual PHOMs.
The HOM itself is a more accurate barometer of "greatness" than any of our individual PHOMs.
I think the point is that there is no difference between ranking a player 16th or 160th. Combine that with candidates being inducted with very low vote percentages and you have the possibility of inducting candidates the the majority of the electorate strongly *dislikes*. As the electorate further splinters as the backlog gets larger, this effect grows larger. In the controversial 2000 election, there were voters who had neither Fingers nor Randolph on their ballot. Those voters had no say in which of those two were chosen. Even if you strongly preferred on over the other (Fingers was 16th and Randolph 160th for example), your preference was not counted.
That's what I think the proposals for expanded ballots, lost cause expirations and runoff votes is trying to do. Its trying to sample everyone's opinions of the eventual inductees.
Caveat/Disclaimer: Just playing along with the thought experiment here. I'm not proposing that anything should be changed for 2002-2007 votes.
Depending on how you define "strongly dislikes" I don't think that has yet happened or is ever likely to happen.
It was close with Jennings, Beckley and Fingers.
If you define "strongly dislike" as not appearing on your ballot, then it's happened a lot. If you define it as not being in you top 50 or so, then I don't it's ever happened.
This is all semantic.
2001 Ballot comparison
All men listed who finished among the top 47 (not counting the 3 electees) last election (all got at least 5 votes), and then those who were in my top 47 who were NOT among this group.
Pitchers
Name / ballot consensus / my spot
“-“ means not among top 47 consensus, or among my top 47
Stieb 2 12
Redding 4 9
Walters 8 5
Tiant 16 11
Bridges 17 21
Dean 19 33
Welch 23 43
Grimes 25 17
Willis 33 –
John 41 -
Mays 43 –
…
Reuschel – 14
Newcombe – 19
Shocker - 29
Consensus had 11 pitchers, I have 11; distribution within approx the same.
OF/1Bmen
Browning 1 34
Jones 3 -
Johnson 6 3
Duffy 7 -
Puckett 9 10
Cravath 10 -
Perez 11 24
Oms 12 31
Van Haltren 13 6
Smith 20 4
Brock 22 41
Cepeda 26 27
Singleton 28 –
Staub 29 –
Cash 30 26
Murphy 32 –
Bonds 34 20
Taylor 35 41
Klein 42 –
Mattingly 46 16
…
Chance – 7
Dimaggio – 22
Easter - 47
Wow, 20 “bats” in the consensus, while I have only 14. Consensus also has many of these bats up high; 9 (!) of the top 13 non-electees.
IF and C
Bresnahan 5 2
Leach 14 20
McGraw 15 1
Nettles 18 14
Clarkson 21 17
Rizzuto 24 39
Concepcion 27 28
Doyle 31 47
Elliot 36 13
Traynor 37 26
Bancroft 38 42
Howard 39 18
Schang 40 32
Monroe 44 8
Stephens 45 –
Bando 47 40
…
Bell – 35
Cey – 36
Munson – 37
Aparicio – 44
Maranville - 45
Lombardi – 46
Fregosi - 47
16 “gloves”. I have 22, and I have them higher; 4 of the top 13, while only Bresnahan makes the top 13 of the consensus.
There are about 9 "openings" for the backlog. We may only elect 1-3 more pitchers which is a little light but we've always been lighter than I would like. We are going to be a little thin at SS and 3B. There aren't any catchers other than Bresnahan we'll elect so that will be light. Modern CF is actually looking thin mainly because we have only elected Wynn and half of Yount since Willie/Mickey/Duke. Electing a bunch of old-time CF isn't going to help the Wynn-Griffey gap though counting Rickey as a CF would do it. 2B will be high as will corner OF but 1B should be about spot on. Overall though I think we've done a bang-up job with positional balance. We'll be +3 on C vs. the HOF, +2 on 2B, +2 on 3B, -1 on SS with better quality representatives. -10 on P concerns me though, we're harsher on pitchers than the other hall.
1B: Murray, McGwire, Palmeiro, Bagwell
2B: Sandberg, Alomar
3B: Boggs
SS: Ripken, O. Smith, Trammell, Larkin
RF: Gwynn
LF: Raines, Rickey
DH: E. Martinez
??: Molitor
RP: Eckersley
Secondary Candidats
1B: W. Clark
3B: Ventura
RF: L. Walker
LF: Belle
SP: K. Brown, Cone, Saberhagen, Hershiser, Finley
RP: L. Smith, Franco
C: 0/0
1B: 4/1
2B: 2/0
3B: 1/1
SS: 4/0
RF: 1/1
CF: 0/0
LF: 2/1
DH: 1/0
??: 1/0
SP: 0/5
RP: 1/2
I could have put Brown in the top tier, but I haven't felt like there's been a consensus gelling around him yet.
So 1B and SS look likely to gain a bunch. CF and C fall backwards, others probably tread water. Where we classify Molitor will, however influence this. [There seem to me two possibilities. DH or 3B. He played a large plurality at DH. On the other hand, it seems odd to label a guy DH who played more than 1/2 his games in the field, in which case, he played 3B more than any other fielding position.]
Anyway, just a brief look forward.
In a perfect world, it shouldn't, Tom.
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