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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Sunday, August 19, 20072003 Results: Murray! Sandberg! Jones! Hall of Meriters!In his first year of eligibility, legendary RBI man Eddie Murray captured the top spot this election for the Hall of Merit with a spectacular 97% of all possible points. Cub superstar Ryne Sandberg, another newbie, nabbed the second spot with an almost equally impressive 90% of all possible points. Last but not least, 19th century batsman Charley Jones narrowly beat out longtime candidates Pete Browning and Roger Bresnahan (one of these two will almost certainly be elected in 2004) with an underwhelming 24.92% of the points (breaking Jake Beckley’s 1998 record by eight-hundredths of a point). A candidate in our very first election, his 106th try did the trick. A record 108 candidates received a vote this election, eclipsing the previous record of 103. Rounding out the top-ten were: Andre Dawson, Kirby Puckett (first time in the top-ten!), Bob Johnson, Tony Perez and Cannonball Dick Redding. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Eddie Murray 1240 53 37 13 1 1 1 2 n/e Ryne Sandberg 1149 53 12 27 5 3 1 2 1 1 1 3 6 Charley Jones 317 22 3 1 1 2 3 2 1 3 1 1 2 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 4 Pete Browning 307 20 1 1 4 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 5 5 Roger Bresnahan 301 21 1 3 1 3 1 2 3 2 1 1 2 1 6 8 Andre Dawson 274 21 2 2 2 1 3 2 3 1 1 2 1 1 7 12 Kirby Puckett 253 18 1 1 3 2 3 2 2 2 2 8 7 Bob Johnson 252 19 2 4 3 2 3 1 1 2 1 9 10 Tony Perez 244 19 1 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 10 9 Cannonball Dick Redding 228 14 1 4 2 2 1 1 1 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 14 Bucky Walters 218 17 1 1 3 1 3 2 1 2 1 1 1 12 11 Hugh Duffy 216 17 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 3 2 1 13 16 Alejandro Oms 215 17 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 14 15 Gavvy Cravath 212 19 2 1 2 2 1 4 3 2 2 15 13 Tommy Leach 207 16 1 3 2 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 16 24 Reggie Smith 179 15 1 1 3 2 5 1 1 1 17 17 George Van Haltren 178 13 2 2 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 18 19 Luis Tiant 177 15 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 19 18 Graig Nettles 174 15 1 1 2 1 2 3 4 1 20 20 John McGraw 166 10 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 21 32 Phil Rizzuto 159 13 1 3 2 1 2 1 1 2 22 31 Dizzy Dean 154 10 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 23 23 Bus Clarkson 148 10 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 24 28 Tommy Bridges 143 10 1 5 1 2 1 25 22 Lou Brock 134 10 1 2 2 2 2 1 26 34 Ken Singleton 132 12 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 27 35 Dave Concepción 131 10 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 28 25 Burleigh Grimes 129 12 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 29 27 Rusty Staub 128 11 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 30 21 Mickey Welch 127 9 1 2 1 2 2 1 31 30 Orlando Cepeda 121 11 1 1 3 1 2 2 1 32 26 Norm Cash 119 10 1 1 1 3 2 2 33 29 Vic Willis 113 9 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 34 33 Larry Doyle 111 8 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 35 37 Bobby Bonds 110 11 3 1 1 3 3 36 36 Dale Murphy 109 10 1 1 5 2 1 37 45 Elston Howard 95 9 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 38 38 Bob Elliott 90 9 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 39 40 Ben Taylor 88 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 40 43 Carl Mays 82 8 2 1 1 2 2 41T 41 Dave Bancroft 78 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 41T 39 Tommy John 78 6 1 1 2 1 1 43 51T Bill Monroe 70 6 1 2 1 1 1 44T 46 Chuck Klein 62 5 1 1 1 2 44T 44 Wally Schang 62 5 1 1 1 1 1 46T 54T Rick Reuschel 61 5 1 1 1 1 1 46T 47 Vern Stephens 61 5 1 2 1 1 48 48 Frank Tanana 61 4 1 1 1 1 49 n/e Lee Smith 60 4 2 1 1 50 49 Don Mattingly 59 5 1 1 1 1 1 51 54T Addie Joss 58 4 1 1 1 1 52T 50 Sal Bando 55 5 1 2 1 1 52T 61 Thurman Munson 55 5 1 2 1 1 54T 57T Buddy Bell 54 5 1 1 2 1 54T 42 Pie Traynor 54 5 1 1 1 2 56 65 Ed Williamson 53 4 1 1 1 1 57 64 Don Newcombe 50 5 1 1 1 1 1 58 53 Frank Chance 44 4 1 1 1 1 59 62T Urban Shocker 41 4 1 1 1 1 60T 67 George J. Burns 39 4 1 1 2 60T 57T Lefty Gomez 39 4 1 1 1 1 62 56 Wilbur Cooper 37 3 1 1 1 63 60 Tony Oliva 37 2 1 1 64T 73 Ed Cicotte 36 3 1 1 1 64T 59 Ernie Lombardi 36 3 1 1 1 64T 51T Lance Parrish 36 3 1 1 1 67T 62T Tony Mullane 33 3 2 1 67T 70T Jimmy Ryan 33 3 2 1 69 82T Al Rosen 30 3 1 1 1 70 68 Rabbit Maranville 29 3 1 1 1 71 75 Bill Mazeroski 28 2 1 1 72 74 Jack Clark 27 3 1 2 73 77T Frank Howard 26 3 1 1 1 74 69 Ron Cey 25 3 1 2 75T 70T Jim Kaat 24 2 2 75T 89T Leroy Matlock 24 2 1 1 77 72 Jack Quinn 23 2 1 1 78 n/e Luke Easter 22 1 1 79 82T Bobby Veach 21 3 1 1 1 80 76 Bruce Sutter 20 2 2 81T 80 Fred Dunlap 19 2 1 1 81T 66 Sam Rice 19 2 1 1 83 77T Johnny Pesky 18 2 1 1 84T 82T Jim Rice 16 2 1 1 84T 82T Dave Parker 16 2 2 86T 86 Luis Aparicio 16 1 1 86T 81 Brian Downing 16 1 1 88 79 Dizzy Trout 13 1 1 89 n/e Carlos Morán 12 1 1 90T 89T Fielder Jones 11 1 1 90T 87 Sam Leever 11 1 1 92T 88 Hack Wilson 10 1 1 92T 92T Tony Lazzeri 10 1 1 94T n/e Wally Berger 9 1 1 94T n/e Tommy Bond 9 1 1 94T n/e Brett Butler 9 1 1 94T n/e Bert Campaneris 9 1 1 94T 92T Jim Fregosi 9 1 1 94T 89T Jack Morris 9 1 1 100 94T Mickey Vernon 8 1 1 101T 94T Charlie Hough 7 1 1 101T 94T George Kell 7 1 1 101T 99T Dick Lundy 7 1 1 104T 97T Dutch Leonard 6 1 1 104T 97T Bill Madlock 6 1 1 104T n/e Dan Quisenberry 6 1 1 104T 99T Gene Tenace 6 1 1 104T n/e Tim Wallach 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Al Oliver(99T). Ballots Cast: 53
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: August 19, 2007 at 04:16 PM | 75 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:04 AM (#2493004)Happy to see Jones go in after all of these years, especially since I like him better than Browning.
Dan Greenia, please do us a favor: go all out for Roger Bresnahan! :-) He's close enough that a positive review of his accomplishments might push him over the top.
HOF-not-HOM through 2003
Meaning, all of the members of the HOF-not-HOM as of 2003, not 2007.
1 Aparicio, Luis
2. Bancroft, Dave
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Bresnahan, Roger
6 Brock, Lou
7 Cepeda, Orlando
8 Chance, Frank
9 Chesbro, Jack
10 Combs, Earle
11 Cuyler, Kiki
12 Dandridge, Ray
13 Day, Leon
14 Dean, Dizzy
15 Duffy, Hugh
16 Evers, Johnny
17 Ferrell, Rick
18 Gomez, Lefty
19 Grimes, Burleigh
20 Hafey, Chick
21 Haines, Jesse
22 Hooper, Harry
23 Hoyt, Waite
24 Hunter, Catfish
25 Jackson, Travis
26 Johnson, Judy
27 Joss, Addie
28 Kell, George
29 Kelly, George
30 Klein, Chuck
31 Lazzeri, Tony
32 Lindstrom, Freddie
33 Lombardi, Ernie
34 Manush, Heinie
35 Maranville, Rabbit
36 Marquard, Rube
37 Mazeroski, Bill
38 McCarthy, Tommy
39 McGraw, John
40 Pennock, Herb
41 Perez, Tony
42 Puckett, Kirby
43 Rice, Sam
44 Rizzuto, Phil
45 Schalk, Ray
46 Schoendienst, Red
47 Smith, Hilton
48 Tinker, Joe
49 Traynor, Pie
50 Waner, Lloyd
51 Welch, Mickey
52 Willis, Vic
53 Wilson, Hack
54 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
Meaning, all of the members of the HOM-not-HOF as of 2003, not 2007.
1 Allen, Dick
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Blyleven, Bert
6 Boyer, Ken
7 Brown, Ray
8 Brown, Willard
9 Caruthers, Bob
10 Childs, Cupid
11 Dahlen, Bill
12 Evans, Darrell
13 Evans, Dwight
14 Ferrell, Wes
15 Freehan, Bill
16 Glasscock, Jack
17 Gordon, Joe
18 Gore, George
19 Gossage, Rich
20 Grant, Frank
21 Grich, Bobby
22 Groh, Heinie
23 Hack, Stan
24 Hernandez, Keith
25 Hill, Pete
26 Hines, Paul
27 Jackson, Joe*
28 Johnson, Home Run
29 Jones, Charley
30 Keller, Charlie
31 Mackey. Biz
32 Magee, Sherry
33 McVey, Cal
34 Méndez, José
35 Minoso, Minnie
36 Moore, Dobie
37 Pearce, Dickey
38 Pierce, Billy
39 Pike, Lip
40 Randolph, Willie
41 Richardson, Hardy
42 Rose, Pete*
43 Sandberg, Ryne
44 Santo, Ron
45 Santop, Louis
46 Sheckard, Jimmy
47 Simmons, Ted
48 Start, Joe
49 Stieb, Dave
50 Stovey, Harry
51 Suttles, Mule
52 Sutton, Ezra
53 Torre, Joe
54 Trammell, Alan
55 Trouppe, Quincy
56 Torriente, Cristobal
57 Whitaker, Lou
58 White, Deacon
59 Wilson, Jud
59 Wynn, Jimmy
* not eligible for the HOF
Esteban Rivera: +2
Sean Gilman: +1
ronw: -1
Howie Menckel: -1
TomH: -2
mulder&scully;: -2
John Murphy: -2
Thane of Bagarth: -2
Mike Webber: -2
Al Peterson: -2
Chris Fluit: -2
...
Kenn: -5
Brent: -5 (median)
KJOK: -5
...
Chris Cobb: -6
OCF: -6
...
Ken Fischer: -8
jimd: -8
rawagman: -8
Joe Dimino: -10
Tiboreau: -10
Patrick W: -10
rico vanian: -10
daryn: -12
EricC: -13
Adam Schafer: -14
karlmagnus: -16
yest: -17
11 15 Gavvy Cravath 221
John, I have Cravath with 212 rather than 221. There seems to be am extra 12th place vote.
I've looked, but I can't seem to find it.
Wow! There seems to be no predicting who will get the third spot these days. Jones is a sound choice, but who saw it coming?
Pete Browning versus Roger Bresnahan next year will be interesting.
Pretty unlikely, I suppose, that either Dennis Martinez or Joe Carter will slide in as Shiny New Toy.
I'm a tiny bit surprised that Fernando Valenzuela didn't get any votes. But though we harbor voters of many stripes, we have no one beating the drum for 1980s pitchers as a neglected group.
No, you're right, Rick. I had corrected it a while back on my spreadsheet, but I forgot to change the thread. Thanks!
Carter would easily become the worst player in the HoM, bar none.
Funny, I was assuming that Browning would be elected, and I was thinking "How long until Charley Jones breaks his Most Years in Ballot record?"
I'm dreading a Pete Browning election. I really hope that doesn't happen.
Also nice to see Rizzuto move up - I guess his passing triggered some people looking over his resume a little closer, I know I did. The more I look, the more I like what I see there.
Yes, now that the 2003 election is over, we've caught up to the actual beginning of the project. We're going to need Stephen Hawking to decipher our circular logic when posting about the "pretend" year.
Wow, we've been at this over four real years!?!
It sure doesn't seem like it, that's for sure.
Heh.
It's inevitable. He's also not Hack Wilson, as you allude to on your ballot.
I wouldn't bet money on it, Joe, but it's possible.
Worth more than Browning's actually - you know, playing baseball - in a couple of weak AA years?
Yikes. Not exactly up there with racism or world-war absences.
Well, let's just send Browning and Bresnahan in under the wire, and call it a day I suppose.
2004 is the year! Both GVH and Duffy will pass Beckley for the top 2 spots on the all-time votes pts list. Duffy trails by 38 pts - and incredibly, that is EXACTLY his 'victory margin' over GVH in the 2003 voting. A round of Duff brews for everyone!.....Welch has climbed to No. 2 on the pitching charts, passing Waddell but still a couple of 'years' away from Griffith.... CJones' election deprives him of a place in the all-time top 10...
TOP 50, ALL-TIME
Beckley.... 25856
VAN HALTREN 25769.5
DUFFY...... 25731.5
BROWNING... 23814.5
Childs..... 18484
Griffith... 17924
WELCH...... 17613
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976
REDDING.... 16256
CJones..... 15875
BRESNAHAN.. 14589
TLEACH..... 13966
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
Mendez..... 12555
RYAN....... 12451.5
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
CRAVATH.....10290
Beckwith.... 9896
WALTERS......9752
HStovey......9576
DOYLE....... 9097
Mackey.......8930
GRIMES.......8556
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BJOHNSON.....7771
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
OMS..........7487
BMONROE......7260
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
MCGRAW.......6753
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
Sheckard.....6377
SCHANG.......6306
Others in active top 40
Williamson 6099, Willis 5058, Dean 4688, Joss 4395, Elliott 4366, BTaylor 3833, Bridges 3818, FChance 3493, CMays 3178, McCormick 3148x, Traynor 3128, SRice 3061, NCash 2958, Cicotte 2949, Cepeda 2935, Rizzuto 2834, TPerez 2747, Tiernan 2692X, FJones 2554, Brock 2355, Veach 2259, Klein 2203
(just missed GJBurns 2154, Mullane 2077, Stephens 2072, Tiant 2018, EHoward 2005, Dunlap 1928, Lombardi 1897)
(RSmith, Nettles, Clarkson, Singleton, Concepcion or Bonds sneaking in here at the bottom?)
I believe a court did rule in Jones' favor.
Which may or may not have been a biased court. But that's water under the bridge now.
This is true, 'zop.
HOM not HOF (49)
Allen, Dick
Barnes, Ross
Beckwith, John
Bennett, Charlie
Blyleven, Bert
Boyer, Ken
Caruthers, Bob
Childs, Cupid
Dahlen, Bill
Evans, Darrell
Evans, Dwight
Ferrell, Wes
Freehan, Bill
Glasscock, Jack
Gordon, Joe
Gore, George
Gossage, Rich
Grich, Bobby
Groh, Heinie
Hack, Stan
Hernandez, Keith
Hines, Paul
Jackson, Joe
Johnson, Grant
Jones, Charley
Keller, Charlie
Magee, Sherry
McVey, Cal
Minoso, Minnie
Moore, Dobie
Pearce, Dickey
Pierce, Billy
Pike, Lip
Randolph, Willie
Richardson, Hardy
Rose, Pete
Santo, Ron
Sheckard, Jimmy
Simmons, Ted
Start, Joe
Stovey, Harry
Sutton, Ezra
Torre, Joe
Trammell, Alan
Trouppe, Quincy
Stieb, Dave
White, Deacon
Whitaker, Lou
Wynn, Jimmy
HOF not HOM (63) - The gap is closing, of course. Only 5 guys who haven't had a chance to be elected. Besides those HOFers, Bresnahan, Puckett, Perez, and maybe Duffy have a chance to receive dual status.
Aparicio, Luis
Bancroft, Dave
Bender, Chief
Boggs, Wade - eligible 2005
Bottomley, Jim
Bresnahan, Roger
Brock, Lou
Cepeda, Orlando
Chance, Frank
Chesbro, Jack
Combs, Earle
Cooper, Andy
Cuyler, Kiki
Dandridge, Ray
Day, Leon
Dean, Dizzy
Duffy, Hugh
Eckersley, Dennis - eligible 2004
Evers, Johnny
Ferrell, Rick
Gomez, Lefty
Grimes, Burleigh
Gwynn, Tony - eligible 2007
Hafey, Chick
Haines, Jesse
Hooper, Harry
Hoyt, Waite
Hunter, Catfish
Jackson, Travis
Johnson, Judy
Joss, Addie
Kell, George
Kelly, George
Klein, Chuck
Lazzeri, Tony
Lindstrom, Freddy
Lombardi, Ernie
Manush, Heinie
Maranville, Rabbit
Marquard, Rube
Mazeroski, Bill
McCarthy, Tommy
McGraw, John
Molitor, Paul - eligible 2004
Pennock, Herb
Perez, Tony
Puckett, Kirby
Rice, Sam
Ripken, Cal - eligible 2007
Rizzuto, Phil
Schalk, Ray
Schoendienst, Red
Smith, Hilton
Sutter, Bruce
Taylor, Ben
Tinker, Joe
Traynor, Pie
Waner, Lloyd
Welch, Mickey
White, Sol
Willis, Vic
Wilson, Hack
Youngs, Ross
Extrapolated credit for Jones' missing years after blacklisting following a massive salary cat fight.
Worth more than Browning's actually - you know, playing baseball - in a couple of weak AA years?
I didn't provide any new, traditional performance data for Jones, only playing data. As a few voter comments support,
I suspect that some people only recently noticed that he was foremost a National Leaguer and that he was a full-time player for six years before the blacklisting.
And that he was rather a prime than a peak candidate here. Marc always recognized him as a prime candidate and dropped him from 6 to off-ballot in a move to be more of a peak voter again, but plural other voters probably went the other way after newly recognizing him.
(Jones and Browning garnered 4 and 6 "elect me" votes, same as last year, and Jones lost a few points there. The number of all voters was up four, Jones voters up four, Browning voters up one.)
The first item was finding appropriate breakpoints. I've settled on two: outside the top 36 and outside the top 61.
Breaking after the top 36 is breaking between Dale Murphy and Elston Howard. Murphy got 109 points; Howard got 95. Most of those in the top 36 received votes from 10 or more voters; none of those outside the top 36 received votes from as many as 10 voters.
Breaking after the top 61 is breaking between Burns and Cooper. Everyone from Burns on up received votes from 4 or more voters; everyone from Cooper on down received votes from 3 or fewer voters.
Here are the voters sorted by number of votes outside the top 36. The number in brackets after each voter's screen name is the number of "elect me" votes outside the top 36. The average voter voted for 4 candidates outside the top 36.
9: karlmagnus [2], yest [1]
8: EricC [1], Patrick W [1]
7: Rico Vanian [1], sunnyday2, Adam Schafer
6: Tiboreau [1], Jpe Dimino [1], jimd, Jim Sp
5: fra paolo [1], Daryn, David Foss, Eric Chalek, KJOK, Don F
4: rawagman [1], Tom D [1], Chris Cobb [1], Juan V, Kenn, AJM, Got Melky, dan b, Brent, Max Parkinson, Ken Fischer, Andrew M, andrew siegel
3: DanG, Rob Wood, DL from MN, Mark Donelson, Howie Menckel, SWW, 'zop, Dan R, mulder & scully, John Murphy, ronw, Mike Webber, TomH
2: Chris Fluit, Al Peterson, OCF, Rick A, Esteban Rivera, Thane of Bagarth
1: favre
0: Rusty Priske, Sean Gilman
Now here is the same thing repeated for votes outside the top 61. The average voter voted for about 1.6 candidates outside the top 61.
5: yest, EricC, jimd
4: karlmagnus [1], Tiboreau [1], Patrick W
3: fra paolo [1], Rico Vanian, Daryn, David Foss, Eric Chalek, KJOK, Juan V
2: sunnyday2, Adam Schafer, Joe Dimino, Don F, Kenn, AJM, DanG
1: Tom D [1], Jim Sp, rawagman, Chris Cobb, Got Melky, dan b, Brent, Max Parkinson, Ken Fischer, Rob Wood, DL from MN, Mark Donelson, Howie Menkel, SWW, 'zop, Dan R, mulder & scully, Chris Fluit, Al Peterson, favre
0: Andrew M, andrew siegel, John Murphy, ronw, Mike Webber, TomH, OCF, Rick A, Esteban Rivera, Thane of Bagarth, Rusty Priske, Sean Gilman
Interesting to see my own placement well toward the bottom of these lists: only 2 non top-36, no non top-61. But my consensus score was slightly below average. Why? Because I didn't vote for any of the candidates who wound up #3 through #10. You, see, I'm at heart a high-consensus guy, and I don't vote for strange candidates, but I disagree with the plurality of you about who has risen to the top of the backlog.
Right, I'd probably vote for Hack Wilson before Browning . . . he was a better defender, which says a lot . . .
2. Thrilled to see that I am back outside the mainstream again though I am sorry to abandon some PHoMers who recently have dropped down below the top 25ish: Cepeda, F. Howard, R. Smith.
3. Top of the backlog by position.
C--Bresnahan, E. Howard, Munson. The right 3 guys, wrong order ;-)
2B/old-time 3B--Leach, McGraw, Traynor. I guess we've elected all the modern 2Bs.
SS--Rizzuto, Bancroft, Stephens. Depending on where you have Clarkson.
Gloves--Bresnahan, Leach, McGraw. My, what a nostalgic bunch we are.
1B--Perez, Cepeda, Cash. Over Mattingly? You're kidding, right?
LF--Browning, Johnson, Brock. At least that's where I have Pete; he was a "hitter."
RF--Cravath, Singleton, Bonds.
Bats--Browning, Johnson, Perez.
3B/old-time 2B--Nettles, Doyle, Elliott. Apparently we're still short of 3B.
CF--Dawson, Puckett, Duffy, Oms, GVH, R. Smith. Still a heck of a glut.
Hybrids--Dawson, Puckett, Duffy. Still a heck of a glut.
SP--Redding, Walters, Tiant, Dean, Bridges, Grimes, Welch, John, Reuschel, Tanana, Joss.
RP--L. Smith
Arms--Redding, Walters, Tiant.
Total backlog--Browning, Bresnahan, Dawson, Puckett, B. Johnson. Only the top 3 are on 20 ballots. Not a single IF in the top 12 (Leach is #13; Nettles is the top full-time IF at #17. Or since he [Nettles] is a hybrid in my system, then McGraw at #18.)
For the record, I get a 2 and a 0 on your lists.
And since you're here, I'm going to guess on my consensus score as a -3.
I think the only way that you could view it that way, Joe, is if you discount Browning's IF years and the much higher attrition rate for players during Pete's era compared to Hack's.
At any rate, I want the Duke of Tralee to sneak in next election, anyway.
Heh. I even responded to it, OCF. :-) I totally forgot about it. Sorry about that.
Carew, Grich, Randolph, Whitaker, yup, looks like we've gotten them all. Only 5 2B received votes in the 2002 election- Doyle, Monroe, Mazeroski, Dunlap and Lazzeri- and only 1 of them played after WWII (Mazeroski). I'd take Schoendiest over some of the guys who are getting votes, but Red still doesn't get all that close to my ballot.
SS--Rizzuto, Bancroft, Stephens. Depending on where you have Clarkson.
There are a lot of shortstops to choose from. Also, you're missing Concepcion, who finished between Rizzuto and Bancroft. Looking further down the list, Maranville, Pesky, Aparicio, Fregosi and Lundy pick up minimal support, as well.
1B--Perez, Cepeda, Cash. Over Mattingly? You're kidding, right?
Not in the least. Ben Taylor is ahead of Mattingly, too.
3B/old-time 2B--Nettles, Doyle, Elliott. Apparently we're still short of 3B.
Yeah, there's a real glut of 3B to choose from. Disregarding your old-time/new-time split, 14 3B received votes in the last election and 5 finished in the top 50. They are: Leach, Nettles, McGraw, Clarkson, Elliott, Traynor, Bando/ Bell, Williamson, Cey, Rosen, Kell, Madlock and Wallach.
SP--Redding, Walters, Tiant, Dean, Bridges, Grimes, Welch, John, Reuschel, Tanana, Joss.
RP--L. Smith
Arms--Redding, Walters, Tiant.
I still think we're underrating backlog pitchers as a group. Sure, all of these guys have flaws. But then, so do all of the backlog batters. So why are we more willing to elect flawed batters than flawed pitchers? We haven't elected a real backlog pitcher since Billy Pierce in 1987. Since then, we've elected 10 backlog position players (Childs, Boyer, Moore, Trouppe, Keller, Wynn, Fox, Roush, Beckley and Jones- and yes, I'm ignoring Fingers, Randolph and Stieb as new backloggers who were on the ballot for 10 years or less). It's possible that we'll elect 7 more position players before electing a backlog pitcher (we're in position to elect at least 6). Already 10, and likely as many as 16 position players elected from the backlog between pitchers? It looks to me like we aren't being fair to all positions.
Total backlog--Browning, Bresnahan, Dawson, Puckett, B. Johnson. Only the top 3 are on 20 ballots. Not a single IF in the top 12 (Leach is #13; Nettles is the top full-time IF at #17. Or since he [Nettles] is a hybrid in my system, then McGraw at #18.)
We're also electing 1B/OF more quickly than C/IF at this point, but I think that has a lot to do with the number of backlog gloves that we elected in the '90s. From '91 to '97, we elected 5 gloves out of 8 players: Childs, Moore, Boyer, Trouppe and Roush. It stood to reason that we'd have a bit of a glove gap after that. However, we've now made up for it, electing 5 "bats" out of the last 6 backlog spots: Keller, Wynn, Roush, Beckley and Jones.
Yes, I think Schoendienst is underrated. If there are 3 backlog 2Bs since 1920 worthy of consideration, he would be one of them. But I also agree that he would still barely be top 100.
>o, you're missing Concepcion, who finished between Rizzuto and Bancroft.
Oops that was not intentionally meant to annoy anybody, though I don't personally prefer him. Yep, lots to choose fromand that may be what keeps any of them from making a move. Ditto 3B. Williamson is of course my choice. Now and again I think we are missing on Pie Traynor because, while we talk the talk about the defensive spectrum, we don't walk the walk. Basically Pie Traynor is Lou Whitaker.
>So why are we more willing to elect flawed batters than flawed pitchers?
Same reason, can't agree which one(s). Hitters is the only "position" where we seem to be able to agree and that certainly works to the advantage of the Brownings, Joneses, Johnsons, et al.
>We're also electing 1B/OF more quickly than C/IF at this point,
Exactly. Just goes to show you that after 30 years of sabermetrics, hitting is still the only thing we really think we understand.
No kidding. Del Pratt is the next best in my spreadsheet.
I guess somebody always has to be the last guy.
And being 250th all-time ain't all that bad, is it.
I can't think of a single thing I'm capable of doing that I'd rank myself at 250th greatest all-time in the history of doing something.
Surely there are more that 250 people greater at taking out the trash without ######## about it than me; I know for sure there are 250,000 better golfers than me.
I guess I have one thing to be happy about: as of this writing my wife hasn't found 250 guys she'd rather be married to than me.
Good luck guys; keep up the good work as we begin to cycle down to one election per year
Well, some voters like Larry Doyle....
I don't understand positional competition outside of era. If I have 5 shortstops from different eras as the best candidates for my ballot, then they will be at the top of my ballot.
Should we send him a Santo letter or do you think it would be too much for his 157 year old heart? ;)
In all seriousness, if anyone knows anything about what happened to Charley, let Paul Wendt know. His generic name has led him to be one of the few "lost players" in MLB history... well star caliber players anyways. Who else is lost? Anyone notable?
Charley Jones is number three on the Most Wanted list behind Hugh One-Arm Daily and Harry Decker.
See the Charley Jones thread (#54) for more information on those players and that project.
Jack Beckley actual 23, adjusted 24.0
Doerr 27, 28.4
McPhee 27, 28.2
Wallace 26, 29.7
Stovey 28, 29.8
The catch is that McPhee and Stovey probably had other, shorter seasons that would have adjusted to 30, leaving only Beckley, Doerr and Wallace, among position players.
As a peak voter, I would have to say that these are our biggest mistakes.
At a glance there are probably about 12 pitchers who don't make it.
Well Doerr is a bit of a surprise. I had forgotten about his lack of peak.
Here are the next 10 as well as those mentioned above.
Poles..........1842
Bonds..........1803
Hooper.........1792
Griffin........1726.5
R. Smith.......1720
Staub..........1665
Bancroft.......1608
Lundy..........1554
Singleton......1539
Nettles........1465
Clarkson.......1251
Concepcion.....939
Poles... I must have been one of his last supporters and I think I last voted for him about 50 years ago. Yet he was a popular candidate for a while; I think in his first few years of eligibility he must have made it into the top 20.
Spotswood Poles finished 17th in 1931 and 19th in 1932.
Dick Lundy topped out at 19th in 1946.
HoMers in bold
non HoMers who have non playing credit to add (or is) to their hall of fame case
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , <u>Connie Mack </u>,<u>John McGraw</u>, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , <u>Charlie Comiskey</u> , <u>Candy Cummings</u> , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , <u>Wilbert Robinson </u>
1946
Jesse Burkett , <u>Frank Chance</u> , Jack Chesbro , <u>Johnny Evers</u> , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , <u>Joe Tinker</u> , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , <u>Harry Wright </u>
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , <u>Bill McKechnie</u> , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , <u>Miller Huggins</u> , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , <u>Casey Stengel </u>
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski, Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , <u>Bucky Harris</u> , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , <u>Al Lopez</u> , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, <u>Rick Ferrell</u> , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Willie McCovey, Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Catfish Hunter, Ray Dandridge
1988
Willie Stargell
1989
Johnny Bench, Carl Yastrzemski, <u>Red Schoendienst</u>
1990
Jim Palmer , Joe Morgan
1991
Rod Carew, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri
1992
Tom Seaver, Rollie Fingers, Hal Newhouser
1993
Reggie Jackson
1994
Steve Carlton, <u>Leo Durocher</u> , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Mike Schmidt, Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , <u>Ned Hanlon </u>
1997
Phil Niekro, Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
Don Sutton, George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Robin Yount, Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Carlton Fisk, Tony Perez, Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Dave Winfield, Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2002
Ozzie Smith
2003
Eddie Murray, Gary Carter
2005
Ryne Sandberg
2006
Bruce Sutter, Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, <u>Sol White</u>
Evidently that is the explanation of <u>underline</u>.
Tinker and Evers are underlined for the poem, I suppose.
McCarthy should probably be underlined for his supposed innovations, maybe Bresnahan too.
Some of those not underlined did serve as field managers but there is a judgment here that that service did not contribute to their Hall of Fame membership. I agree.
And how about Ben Taylor?
I included Tinker because of his winning the FL pennant
I included Evers because his plaque mentions "served as a player, coach, and manager in big leauges and as a scout from 1902 through 1934 so I figured the HoF might have had some reason that's not eligable here that helped induct him
Rick Ferrall from wiki
After retiring, Ferrell served as a Senators coach, followed by over 30 years in the Detroit Tigers organization as a coach, scout, general manager, and, at over 80 years of age, executive consultant. Selected by the Veterans Committee, he was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1984.
I've seen many people try to say this helped his case
I forgot about Bresnahan, Sutter and Taylor
McCarthy should probably be underlined for his supposed innovations
for what traping fly balls?
I think Chris Jaffe knows one of them.
:-D
From BB Library:
"McCarthy's statistics are unimpressive for a Hall of Famer, but his creative innovations left an indelible mark on the game. He hit .300 only four times in 13 seasons and had a lifetime fielding percentage of .897, and was at his best from 1892 to 1895 when he and Hugh Duffy were "the Heavenly Twins" in the Boston outfield. McCarthy had played for manager Frank Selee's Oshkosh champions in the North Western League in 1887, and after four years in the American Association was reunited with Selee in Boston. Selee encouraged innovative baseball, and McCarthy is credited with perfecting, if not inventing, the hit-and-run; runner-to-batter signals; and an outfield trap, designed to freeze forced baserunners, where if the runner stayed on base McCarthy would trap the ball and get at least a forceout and possibly a double play. After retiring as a player, McCarthy scouted, coached several colleges, and ran a bowling alley and saloon with Duffy. The Veterans Committee elected him to the Hall of Fame in 1946."
Where does McCarthy stand among the all-time BA (Bowling Alley) leaders among eligible players? Does anyone know what the BA ownership record for ballplayers is?
Mitch Williams ran a bowling alley after his career.
Can you imagine Mitch Williams bowling? He'd have to rent three lanes at once since he wouldn't hardly know where the ball was headed.
*Working from a several year old memory of Solomon's "Where They Ain't," but I think that he may have mentioned something about them inventing duck pins or popularizing them at least. But I don't quite remember how that worked, which is why I'm putting it in an annoying footnote=like item. Anyone else remember?
IIRC, Mugsy and Unckie Wilby owned a duckpin* alley/saloon in Baltimore. Indeed, I think I remember Burt Solomon writing that it made very good money and that the two were sore that the syndicate scheme brought them away from Balto and their prized establishment.
IIRC, billiards and betting were important sports at the joint. It and they remained popular in Baltimore in 1899. Brooklyn didn't really take them away as St Louis did in 1900. At least in the public eye, their Baltimore business was a big part of the holdout and of the earlier effort, at least by McGraw, to get the major American Association underway with their club in Baltimore.
--
Beginning about when he moved to the Saint Louis Browns (1902), Charlie Hemphill lived in Youngstown OH between seasons. During a couple of winters it was noted that he worked at, then managed, a bowling alley. He also married during one of those offseasons. Maybe he married the daughter of a bowling magnate. (Manager Jimmy McAleer lived in Youngstown but that seems to be a coincidence.)
So you're people were Latvian, John?
I'm not following you, Eric.
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