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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Sunday, October 21, 20072006 Results: The Hall of Merit Welcomes Clark, Oms and Nettles with Open Arms!In his first year of eligibility, top slugging first baseman Will Clark easily became the top nod this election for HoM immortality. He gained a more than respectable 76% of all possible points. In his 66th year on the ballot, Negro and Cuban League legend Alejandro Oms finally made it with 25% of all possible points. Not that far behind Oms was fielding wizard Graig Nettles with an astounding leap forward (also with 25% of all possible points). In his 13th election, he bested Reggie Smith and Bucky Walters by only a handful of votes. Rounding out the top-ten were: Cannonball Dick Redding, Bob Johnson, Bret Saberhagen (big move up!), John McGraw (a bigger move up!) and Tony Perez. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Will Clark 979 51 20 5 3 5 4 3 4 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 5 Alejandro Oms 328 25 3 2 2 2 3 1 2 3 2 1 4 3 16 Graig Nettles 325 25 2 2 2 1 4 4 2 1 2 2 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 6 Reggie Smith 321 23 1 2 3 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 4 5 7 Bucky Walters 317 22 1 4 2 4 1 1 1 2 3 2 1 6 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 303 17 5 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 4 Bob Johnson 297 20 1 3 2 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 8 14 Bret Saberhagen 293 21 1 2 4 3 3 1 2 1 1 3 9 22 John McGraw 273 16 1 3 4 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 10 11 Tony Perez 269 18 1 2 3 2 2 2 3 1 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 9 Kirby Puckett 267 19 1 3 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 12 10 Gavvy Cravath 262 20 2 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 1 1 1 1 13 17 Phil Rizzuto 261 20 1 2 2 1 3 1 1 2 2 2 3 14 13 Tommy Leach 259 17 1 1 1 3 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 15 12 Hugh Duffy 244 15 1 2 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 16 15 Luis Tiant 221 18 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 5 2 17 19 George Van Haltren 219 13 1 3 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 18 20 Bus Clarkson 211 14 2 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 19 18 Ken Singleton 209 17 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 2 2 20 23 Tommy Bridges 177 11 3 1 3 1 1 2 21 26 Dave Concepción 171 13 1 1 3 2 2 1 2 1 22 24 Mickey Welch 170 11 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 23 25 Burleigh Grimes 163 12 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 2 1 24 21 Dizzy Dean 161 10 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 25 n/e Albert Belle 158 14 2 2 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 26 28 Vic Willis 155 10 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 27 29 Dale Murphy 154 13 1 1 1 3 2 1 2 2 28 31 Elston Howard 153 14 1 2 1 4 3 2 1 29 34 Tommy John 143 9 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 30 95T Dick Lundy 141 11 2 1 2 3 2 1 31 33 Rusty Staub 136 10 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 32 36 Bob Elliott 129 11 1 3 4 1 1 1 33 46T Rick Reuschel 129 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 34 35 Bobby Bonds 126 10 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 35 27 Larry Doyle 124 9 2 2 1 1 2 1 36 42 Don Newcombe 122 12 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 37 32 Lou Brock 117 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 38 38 Ben Taylor 108 9 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 39 37 Norm Cash 107 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 40 39 Pie Traynor 101 10 1 1 2 1 5 41 30 Orlando Cepeda 98 8 1 2 1 1 3 42 41 Wally Schang 97 6 1 1 1 1 2 43 43 Lee Smith 91 5 2 1 1 1 44 40 Carl Mays 90 7 1 1 1 1 2 1 45 44 Dave Bancroft 79 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 46 48 Bill Monroe 78 5 1 2 1 1 47 50 Ed Williamson 74 5 1 1 1 1 1 48 49 Bert Campaneris 69 5 3 1 1 49 46T Chuck Klein 61 4 1 1 1 1 50 45 Vern Stephens 58 4 1 1 1 1 51 55 Johnny Pesky 57 6 1 2 1 1 1 52 52 Frank Tanana 57 3 1 1 1 53 51 Sal Bando 55 4 3 1 54 60 Ernie Lombardi 54 4 1 1 1 1 55T 58 Leroy Matlock 53 4 1 2 1 55T 54 Don Mattingly 53 4 1 1 1 1 57 53 Urban Shocker 52 5 1 2 1 1 58 61 Wilbur Cooper 52 4 1 1 1 1 59 57 Thurman Munson 48 4 1 2 1 60 56 Addie Joss 48 3 1 1 1 61 59 Jack Quinn 47 4 1 2 1 62 64 Lance Parrish 46 4 1 1 1 1 63 65T Al Rosen 42 4 1 1 1 1 64 62 George J. Burns 41 4 1 2 1 65T 67 Tony Mullane 39 3 1 1 1 65T 72 Bruce Sutter 39 3 1 1 1 67 74T Jimmy Ryan 38 3 1 1 1 68 74T Ed Cicotte 36 2 1 1 69 82 Sam Rice 35 4 1 1 2 70T 71 Fred Dunlap 34 4 2 1 1 70T 79 Jim Rice 34 4 1 1 1 1 72 65T Frank Chance 33 3 1 1 1 73 68T Buddy Bell 32 2 1 1 74 68T Rabbit Maranville 31 3 1 1 1 75T 70 Lefty Gomez 30 3 1 1 1 75T n/e Dwight Gooden 30 3 1 1 1 77 73 Frank Howard 27 3 1 1 1 78 78 Jim Kaat 26 2 1 1 79 76 Bobby Veach 25 3 1 1 1 80 63 Tony Oliva 25 2 1 1 81T 81 Luke Easter 22 1 1 81T 86 Bill Mazeroski 22 1 1 83 83 Dave Parker 21 2 1 1 84 77 Ron Cey 20 3 1 2 85 92T Hack Wilson 19 2 1 1 86 90T Tony Lazzeri 18 2 1 1 87 85 Luis Aparicio 17 1 1 88 84 Brian Downing 16 1 1 89 n/e Jim McCormick 15 2 1 1 90T 80 Jack Clark 15 1 1 90T 90T Virgil Trucks 15 1 1 92 87T Sam Leever 14 1 1 93T 87T Tommy Bond 12 1 1 93T 87T Carlos Morán 12 1 1 93T 92T Dizzy Trout 12 1 1 96T 92T Fielder Jones 11 1 1 96T 95T Jack Morris 11 1 1 98T 99T Elmer Smith 10 1 1 98T 99T George Kell 10 1 1 100T n/e Orel Hershiser 9 1 1 100T 103 Bill Madlock 9 1 1 102T 99T Jim Fregosi 8 1 1 102T 103 Charlie Hough 8 1 1 102T 107 Al Oliver 8 1 1 102T 97T Mickey Vernon 8 1 1 106 97T Brett Butler 7 1 1 107T 107 Dutch Leonard 6 1 1 107T 103 Gene Tenace 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Dolf Luque(99T), Dennis Martinez(107), Jim Whitney(103). Ballots Cast: 54 Thanks to OCF and Ron for helping me with the tally! John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: October 21, 2007 at 07:47 PM | 73 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 23, 2007 at 02:06 AM (#2589778)Good thing that Dan didn't accidentally type Jim Nettles instead of his brother Graig in his analysis or he might be in the HoM today instead. ;-)
HOF-not-HOM through 2006
Meaning, all of the members of the HOF-not-HOM as of 2006, not 2007.
1 Aparicio, Luis
2 Bancroft, Dave
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Brock, Lou
6 Cepeda, Orlando
7 Chance, Frank
8 Chesbro, Jack
9 Combs, Earle
10 Cooper, Andy
11 Cuyler, Kiki
12 Dandridge, Ray
13 Day, Leon
14 Dean, Dizzy
15 Duffy, Hugh
16 Evers, Johnny
17 Ferrell, Rick
18 Gomez, Lefty
19 Grimes, Burleigh
20 Hafey, Chick
21 Haines, Jesse
22 Hooper, Harry
23 Hoyt, Waite
24 Hunter, Catfish
25 Jackson, Travis
26 Johnson, Judy
27 Joss, Addie
28 Kell, George
29 Kelly, George
30 Klein, Chuck
31 Lazzeri, Tony
32 Lindstrom, Freddie
33 Lombardi, Ernie
34 Manush, Heinie
35 Maranville, Rabbit
36 Marquard, Rube
37 Mazeroski, Bill
38 McCarthy, Tommy
39 McGraw, John
40 Pennock, Herb
41 Perez, Tony
42 Puckett, Kirby
43 Rice, Sam
44 Rizzuto, Phil
45 Schalk, Ray
46 Schoendienst, Red
47 Smith, Hilton
48 Sutter, Bruce
49 Taylor, Ben
50 Tinker, Joe
51 Traynor, Pie
52 Waner, Lloyd
53 Welch, Mickey
54 Willis, Vic
55 Wilson, Hack
56 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
Meaning, all of the members of the HOM-not-HOF as of 2006, not 2007.
1 Allen, Dick
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Blyleven, Bert
6 Boyer, Ken
7 Browning, Pete
8 Caruthers, Bob
9 Childs, Cupid
10 Clark, Will
11 Dahlen, Bill
12 Dawson, Andre
13 Evans, Darrell
14 Evans, Dwight
15 Ferrell, Wes
16 Freehan, Bill
17 Glasscock, Jack
18 Gordon, Joe
19 Gore, George
20 Gossage, Rich
21 Grich, Bobby
22 Groh, Heinie
23 Hack, Stan
24 Hernandez, Keith
25 Hines, Paul
26 Jackson, Joe*
27 Johnson, Home Run
28 Jones, Charley
29 Keller, Charlie
30 Magee, Sherry
31 McVey, Cal
32 Minoso, Minnie
33 Moore, Dobie
34 Nettles, Graig
35 Oms, Alejandro
36 Pearce, Dickey
37 Pierce, Billy
38 Pike, Lip
39 Randolph, Willie
40 Richardson, Hardy
41 Rose, Pete*
42 Santo, Ron
43 Sheckard, Jimmy
44 Simmons, Ted
45 Start, Joe
46 Stieb, Dave
47 Stovey, Harry
48 Sutton, Ezra
49 Torre, Joe
50 Trammell, Alan
51 Trouppe, Quincy
52 Whitaker, Lou
53 White, Deacon
54 Wynn, Jimmy
* not eligible for the HOF
After the NeL influx into the HOF in 2006, there are now more HOF-not-HoM for the first time.
As much as I am positively thrilled to see John McGraw's name in the top 10, he'll only be #5 on my 2007 ballot.
He and Oms are the inverse of the Pete Browning situation. Not one voter thought that either of these two electees was the best backlog candidate available. Neither had any strong supporters, taking Willie Randolph one last step further (he at least had one such vote).
Browning was William Jennings Bryan, polarizing.
These guys are Franklin Pierce, dark horses both.
Sean Gilman: -11
Trevor P: -11
Howie Menckel: -12
Rusty Priske: -12
TomH: -12
ronw: -12
mulder & scully: -13
Mark Shirk: -13
Al Peterson: -13
Thane Bagarth: -13
andrew siegel: -13
...
rawagaman: -16 (median)
OCF: -17 (median)
...
John Murphy: -18
...
Dan R: -21
Joe Dimino: -21
Daryn: -22
Chris Fluit: -23
EricC: -24
sunnyday2: -24
Juan V: -25
Don F: -26
rico vanian: -29
karlmagnus: -32
Adam Schafer: -32
yest: -33
Is Nettles' leap from #16 to election the biggest jump ever?
That is correct. The second largest was Joe Jackson (ala boycott), moving from 10th to 1st (1926-1927).
Dobie Moore had the next largest (7th to 3rd, 90-91) along with Andre Dawson (7th to 3rd, 04-05).
Any chance the greatest dual meritious fellow is elected in 2008?
Howard jumped 8. Reuschel and Lundy made big jumps. So did Sam Rice.
I doubt if we've ever had a player gain 65 places either.
Good news: We dodged Bob Johnson.
Bad news: We elected Oms.
Neutral news: At least Nettles fills a position need, but seriously Ed Williamson was twice the ballplayer.
Bucky Walters put on a nice late inning rally too, then fell back over the last few ballots, at least according my casual tabulation.
Just 2 more backloggers to go??? Wow. I'm OK with Reggie, Walters, Redding and Saberhagen; not so OK with McGraw; and definitely not OK with Johnson or Perez. #11through 15 would all be better. And I would think that Lundy is a bona fide contender now, too.
Of course, I'm 7th from the bottom on consensus scores, where I belong. I should probably say, Vote for Bob Johnson!
McGraw? Nah. Dan wont have in the top-three next election. ;-)
That's just because everyone realized Reggie Smith was better. :) (Oh yeah, and Oms got elected).
In 2007 everyone must explain why they aren't voting for John McGraw.
Alejandro Oms is the first member of the Hall of Merit who earned no votes, no points at all, when he was first eligible. (Dobie Moore was also shut out but that happened midway in his candidacy at the end of our years of plenty.)
This is a good thing...
Since the '07 inductees are a given, I think we should really kickstart our discussion for '08: our final two backloggers. We all owe it to ourselves to review *everyone* before their last chance at sabermetric immortality expires.
I don't agree with the salary calculator - I think it's too peak centric. So it is possible to use Dan's system, and still not love McGraw as a candidate. I think he's on OK candidate, but there are better choices position player wise.
IMO Rizzuto flys to the top of the backlog position player class given reasonable war credit using Dan's system.
...but got shot in the chest with Nettles? ;-)
I think I'll get into detail later why Tiant is better than Saberhagen.
I like the idea, since pitchers are underrepresented relative to my PHoM. But why choose between Tiant and Sabes when you can have both? :-)
----
But why choose between Tiant and Sabes when you can have both?
It's not an easy choice for me, and I have Cone stepping right into the same neigborhood - of Tiant, Saberhagen, and Cone, what is the right order? (OK, so I actually think the answer is "Tommy Bridges.")
Another example of a late bloomer. Not quite as dramatic as Jose Cruz, perhaps but his performance in his 30's could just as easily be the declining years of a truly great player than what it actually is: the best years of O'Neill.
Joe Morgan famously dismissed the 1998 Yankees by asking how many of them could have started for the "Big Red Machine" Reds. Of course, if you truly evaluate that ...
The '75-'76 Reds throw standard position-by-position comparisons for a big loop, for two reasons. One is that for a great team, they didn't have great pitching. They had a great offense that carried nothing-special pitching. The '98 Yankees were very good on both offense and defense. The other issue is that the Reds had a starting lineup cast in concrete - no divided positions, no people in and out of the lineup. That's unusual, even for great teams. But just look at the position-by-position lineup anyway:
C: Johnny Bench vs. Jorge Posada
1b: Tony Perez vs. Tino Martinez
2b: Joe Morgan vs. Chuck Knoblauch
3b: Pete Rose vs. Scott Brosius
SS: Dave Concepcion vs. Derek Jeter
LF: George Foster vs. Chad Curtis/Tim Raines/Daryl Strawberry/Shane Spencer/Homer Bush
CF: Cesar Geronimo vs. Bernie Williams
RF: Ken Griffey vs. Paul O'Neill
DH and bench: Dan Driessen vs. same people as the LF list
Now, some of those are wipeouts (Morgan over anyone in the world, Williams over Geronimo) and some are possibly interesting arguments (Tony and Tino; Rose and Brosius; Foster and the fractured LF/DH gang.) But I am convinced that O'Neill would kick Griffey's butt.
No. I've got the count for this election at 26. The record was at least 28, and we may have even had a 29. We came close, but no new record.
31. DL from MN Posted: October 23, 2007 at 01:06 AM (#2589907)
No. As established above, the previous record for jump into election was Shoeless Joe from 10th to 1st. The non-boycott record was 7th to 3rd. So Nettles is the first to become elected without being a necessary disclosure.
As for how the rest of the electorate ranked him: I had him just off-ballot at 16th. For his position, I had Traynor slightly ahead. But Nettles was in line to make my ballot for 2008.
Clark is a "back-logger" (at least by my definition). The electorate voted 34-20 that he was a "back-logger", placing their own favorite deep backlogger ahead of him. He's pretty high in the backlog, and would probably get elected to the top 2/3rds of the HOM, but not the top half. Others with similar electoral support would include Billy Williams and Juan Marichal.
Everybody's entitled to create their own definitions.
I spent some time on this one, and came up with one that works to my satisfaction in all of our elections so far, including talent gluts such as 1934. Semi-formally, a "front-logger" is someone who is voted #1 by the majority of the voters, or would have been voted #1 except for the presence of other "front-loggers".
Clark did not get a majority of the #1's, just 37%. The rest of the electorate ranked him behind their favorite back-logger. Therefore the majority saw Clark as another back-logger. QED ;-) Of course, he towers over the rest of the backlog, none of which got more than 9% of the #1's, but the consensus was still "backlog".
OTOH, Torriente averaged 69% of the vote as a "front-logger" across 4 elections from 1934-37 (an example of how the def'n works in more complex situations).
There have been 111 "front-loggers" and 117 "back-loggers" so far, splitting the HOM nearly in half.
You said it.
On a 0 to 100 scale for agreement, the average pair of voters averaged 28. Even the most agreeable of voters (Sean Gilman, Trevor P, Howie Menkel, Rusty Priske, TomH) only averaged 35% agreement with all other voters; at the other end of the scale were karlmagnus and Adam Schafer at 13 and yest at 12.
We did have one extreme outlier "twin voter" case: Dan R and 'zop had a 92 agreement between them. The second highest pair was a mere 75: Dan R and Jim Sp.
There were four cases of zero agreement between pairs of voters: Adam Schafer - ronw; Adam Schafer - Got Melky; Adam Schafer - fra paolo, and yest - Juan V. Of neccessity, these cases involved voters who did not have Will Clark on their ballots.
In my own case, I had a 30 average agreement with the rest of the electorate. I was closest to Andrew M (56) and furthest from yest (4).
I have Elston Howard with 153 points and Frank Howard with 27
DavidFoss' 10th place vote should go to Frank Howard.
I think Lundy could've done it, if the new MLE's came out earlier.
Voter [closest voter xx] (furthest voter yy)
Sean Gilman [Got Melky 60] (Adam Schafer 3)
Trevor P [Rob Wood 64] (Adam Schafer, yest 4)
Howie Menckel [Thane of Bagarth 60] (Adam Schafer 5)
Rusty Priske [DanG 63] (Adam Schafer 5)
TomH [ronw 60] (Adam Schafer, yest 8)
ronw [TomH 60] (Adam Schafer 0)
mulder & scully [John Murphy 68] (rico vanian 8)
Mark Shirk [Rick A 69] (karlmagnus 10)
Al Peterson [Devin McCullen 66] (rico vanian, Adam Schafer 8)
Thane of Bagarth [AJM 69] (karlmagnus 5)
andrew siegel [Andrew M 63] (yest 4)
Brent [Mike Webber 60] (Adam Schafer 8)
he's gone unnoticed for decades, but meet all time SP votes-pts king - Mickey Welch! The Mick places 6th overall... Cravath climbs 2 spots to No. 22... Walters will finally claim a top 25 spot after 2007... Grimes claims a slot in the top 30... Oms finishes 33rd... Williamson could gain a top 50 slot next year after 100+ years of trying.. Nettles leapfrogs 6 players to grab 43rd on the active list, poised to move up - eh, what's that? Oh, never mind... Bancroft takes a top 50 slot, passing sleeping OFs Hooper and Poles.
TOP 10, ALL-TIME
DUFFY...... 26460.5
VAN HALTREN 26353.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
Childs..... 18484
WELCH...... 18081
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
REDDING.... 17080
Jennings... 16976
CJones..... 15875
Bresnahan.. 14965
TLEACH..... 14681
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
Mendez..... 12555
RYAN....... 12546.5
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005
Bennett.... 11503
CRAVATH.....11047
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
WALTERS.....10592
Beckwith.... 9896
HStovey......9576
DOYLE....... 9483
GRIMES.......8998
Mackey.......8930
BJOHNSON.....8655
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
BMONROE......7473
MCGRAW.......7407
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
Galvin.......6585
SCHANG.......6565
Keller.......6424
Sheckard.....6377
Others in active top 50
Williamson 6291, Willis 5481, Dean 5219, Elliott 4702, Joss 4581, Bridges 4291, BTaylor 4132, FChance 3611, TPerez 3515, Rizzuto 3487, CMays 3438, Traynor 3389, NCash 3299, Cepeda 3292, McCormick 3148x, SRice 3138, Cicotte 3054, Brock 2739, Tiernan 2692X, Tiant 2657, FJones 2587, ReSmith 2550, EHoward 2421, Klein 2397, Veach 2339, GJBurns 2279, Stephens 2263, Mullane 2187, BoBonds 2167, Singleton 2126, Staub 2050, Lombardi 2040, Dunlap 2015, Bancroft 1849, Poles 1842X
(just missed)
Hooper 1792X, Lundy 1722, BClarkson 1700
yest [rico vanian 44] (Juan V 0)
Adam Schafer [John Murphy 48] (ronw, Got Melky, fra paolo 0)
karlmagnus [Ken Fischer 30] (Rob Wood 3)
rico vanian [SWW 51] (DL from MN 3)
Don F [SWW 45] (Juan V 4)
Juan V [favre 45] (yest 0)
sunnyday2 [Mark Donelson 61] (karlmagnus 3)
EricC [DanG 39] (Chris Fluit 3)
Chris Fluit [Rick A 50] (EricC 3)
Daryn [SWW 55] (Adam Schafer 5)
Joe Dimino [Jim Sp 71] (yest 3)
Dan R ['zop 92] (yest 2)
David Foss [ronw 53] (Don F 10)
Jim Sp [Dan R 75] (yest 2)
Patrick W [Thane of Bagarth 56] (yest 4)
'zop [Dan R 92] (yest 2)
I've got Joss with 4541
McCormick with 3163(he picked up 15pts. after decades with 0)
EHoward with 2410
Burns with 2281
Stephens with 2264
Clarkson with 1800
Between Hooper and Lundy, I've got Mike Griffin with 1726.5
...........................................
all-time 'votes points' thru 2006 - those still eligible in 2007 election are in CAPS. electees are not in caps.
he's gone unnoticed for decades, but meet all time SP votes-pts king - Mickey Welch! The Mick places 6th overall... Cravath climbs 2 spots to No. 22... Walters will finally claim a top 25 spot after 2007... Grimes claims a slot in the top 30... Oms finishes 33rd... Williamson could gain a top 50 slot next year after 100+ years of trying.. Nettles leapfrogs 6 players to grab 43rd on the active list, poised to move up - eh, what's that? Oh, never mind... Bancroft takes a top 50 slot, passing sleeping OFs Hooper and Poles.
TOP 10, ALL-TIME
DUFFY...... 26460.5
VAN HALTREN 26353.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
Childs..... 18484
WELCH...... 18081
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
REDDING.... 17080
Jennings... 16976
CJones..... 15875
Bresnahan.. 14965
TLEACH..... 14681
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
Mendez..... 12555
RYAN....... 12546.5
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005
Bennett.... 11503
CRAVATH.....11047
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
WALTERS.....10592
Beckwith.... 9896
HStovey......9576
DOYLE....... 9483
GRIMES.......8998
Mackey.......8930
BJOHNSON.....8655
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
BMONROE......7473
MCGRAW.......7407
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
Galvin.......6585
SCHANG.......6565
Keller.......6424
Sheckard.....6377
Others in active top 50
Williamson 6291, Willis 5481, Dean 5219, Elliott 4702, Joss 4541, Bridges 4291, BTaylor 4132, FChance 3611, TPerez 3515, Rizzuto 3487, CMays 3438, Traynor 3389, NCash 3299, Cepeda 3292, McCormick 3163, SRice 3138, Cicotte 3054, Brock 2739, Tiernan 2692X, Tiant 2657, FJones 2587, ReSmith 2550, EHoward 2410, Klein 2397, Veach 2339, GJBurns 2281, Stephens 2264, Mullane 2187, BoBonds 2167, Singleton 2126, Staub 2050, Lombardi 2040, Dunlap 2015, Bancroft 1849, Poles 1842X
(just missed)
BClarkson 1800, Hooper 1792X, Griffin 1726.5X, Lundy 1722
Chris Cobb [Trevor P 57] (Adam Schafer, yest 4)
DanG [Rusty Priske 63] (yest 4)
Mark Donelson [Tiboreau 61] (yest 4)
fra paolo [jimd 54] (Adam Schafer 0)
KJOK [TomH 59] (yest 3)
rawagman [andrew siegel 56] (Jim Sp 8)
OCF [Andrew M 56] (yest 4)
Esteban Rivera [John Murphy 48] (Adam Schafer 7)
jimd [fra paolo 54] (karlmagnus, Adam Schafer 12)
Rob Wood [Trevor P 64] (karlmagnus 3)
John Murphy [mulder & scully 68] (Jim Sp, Dan R 8)
Rick A [Mark Shirk 69] (DL from MN 5)
Note: yest had Clark 15th. If you voted Clark #1 and had no other candidates in common with yest, that's a 4. If you had only Clark in common with yest and didn't put him #1, then the agreement is 2 or 3. (or maybe 4 if Clark was elect-me).
You said it.
But not to the same degree as did Gossage or Whitaker or Ozzie or Eckersley (to name some other recent candidates). Those players did get 50%+ "front-log" ratings, i.e, more than 50% of the voters placed them ahead of their top backlogger. In those elections, when asked the question, "Is this candidate better than my favorite back-logger", the majority said "Yes". With Clark, the majority said "No".
It's OCF's and Ron's fault! :-)
Seriously, I missed it with my quick scan of the totals. Thanks, Rick!
No, no, it's Craig Nettles. ;)
6 time all star (have there been 250 players who can say that?)
27th in career games
59th in career PAs
87th in career RBIs
74th in career BBs
97th in career TBs
149th in runs created
164th in runs scored
One of the best defensive 3bs of all time- definately top 5,
PS - all in one post please.
Both players have excellent peaks, approximately equivalent to Kiner or Keller.
I think one of the side effects of Dan R.'s work is that it has forced us to consider defense and baserunning more quantitatively. As it turns out, many of the long career guys at glove positions had terrifically high defense+baserunning peaks as younger players. A player who seemed to be HoVG or to never have had a MVP-caliber season based upon hitting alone, suddenly looks much better.
In the case of Nettles, once you added up his slg-heavy hitting in a low offense era with his amazing defense (the greatest single defensive season at 3B since WWII), you found a player that was 98% of Brooks Robinson. That's a Hall of Merit player, no matter if you're a peak or prime voter.
Regarding Dawson, once you adjusted his ~1980-1983 for great defense, good baserunning, slg-heavy OPS in a low-offense context, and the low standard deviation of performance in the early 80's, Dawson's peak is above the in-out line for a peak voter.
The difference is in opportunity. My parameters for DP opps is this: bbtype = groundball, outs < 2, runner on first, ball fielded by third baseman. When I run this I get a little under the player's actual DP's, probably due to DP's that involve catching a linedrive, or tagging a runner out at third on a strike em out, throw em out.
Anyway, Nettles had 113 opportunities to turn a DP, and Robinson only 67. This is mostly because the Baltimore staff walked about 350 fewer batters than the Indians.
That sounds awfully snide, sunnyday, but I'm not really sure exactly what you mean.
'zop, I supported both Nettles and Dawson, but they definitely didn't have the peak of a Kiner or a Keller. Nettles's best year was 6.6 WARP2 (twice); Dawson had the one huge strike year which has to be regressed and nothing else above 6, while Kiner and Keller have multiple seasons above 7.5. That said, I certainly agree with your general point--that both Dawson and Nettles had numerous years where they played well enough to deserve to start the All-Star game in a typical season. That's *enough* peak to get over in the in/out line given the strength of their primes and careers, but it certainly wouldn't be enough if they didn't have the bulk to go with it.
AROM, 28 runs for Nettles' 1971 is pretty close to what FRAA, Fielding Win Shares, and DRA all find, so you must be doing something right.
AROM, what value do you give Brooks Robinson's 1967 season? At the moment that's my best single season since 1957, but I'm far from complete with my data. I've got Nettles in 1971 at +57.8.
You have his class ring?
Seriously :-), your analysis has a significant following here. Nothing to be ashamed about there, Dan. It may just mean that you are the most influential voter here now.
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