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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, November 12, 20072007 Results: Newly Eligible Ripken, Gwynn and McGwire Make It Into the Hall of Merit Easily!In his first year of eligibility, legendary shortstop Cal Ripken was elected into the Hall of Merit practically unanimously with 99.83% of all possible points. He earned an “elect me” vote from every voter. Star hitter Tony Gwynn also made a very strong showing with his 95% of all possible points. Last but not least, supreme power-hitter Mark McGwire earned a more than respectable 86% of all possible points. Rounding out the top-ten were: Bret Saberhagen (looks good for 2008!), Reggie Smith (he might make it in 2008, too!), Cannonball Dick Redding, Bucky Walters, Tommy Leach (first time in the top-ten!), Bob Johnson and Kirby Puckett. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Cal Ripken, Jr. 1150 48 46 2 2 n/e Tony Gwynn 1091 48 2 36 9 1 3 n/e Mark McGwire 990 46 10 30 4 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 8 Bret Saberhagen 244 19 4 3 4 1 2 2 1 2 5 4 Reggie Smith 236 20 2 3 3 1 2 2 1 2 4 6 6 Cannonball Dick Redding 186 13 4 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 5 Bucky Walters 185 15 1 2 1 3 1 1 1 1 3 1 8 14 Tommy Leach 185 14 2 1 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 9 7 Bob Johnson 181 15 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 10 11 Kirby Puckett 180 14 3 2 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 12 Gavvy Cravath 171 15 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 3 1 1 12 10 Tony Perez 170 13 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 1 3 13 16 Luis Tiant 168 15 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 14 13 Phil Rizzuto 168 14 2 2 3 1 3 2 1 15 9 John McGraw 168 13 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 2 16 30 Dick Lundy 156 13 1 2 1 4 4 1 17 15 Hugh Duffy 154 12 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 18 17 George Van Haltren 153 10 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 19 18 Bus Clarkson 150 13 2 1 1 4 1 1 1 2 20 n/e David Cone 148 13 1 2 4 4 1 1 21 19 Ken Singleton 139 12 4 2 1 3 2 22 20 Tommy Bridges 134 10 1 3 2 1 1 1 1 23 21 Dave Concepción 125 13 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 2 24 24 Burleigh Grimes 121 11 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 25 26 Albert Belle 110 10 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 26 31 Rusty Staub 108 10 1 2 3 3 1 27 22 Mickey Welch 106 8 1 1 2 2 1 1 28 36 Don Newcombe 105 12 1 1 1 1 4 1 3 29 33 Rick Reuschel 104 8 2 1 1 1 1 2 30 29 Tommy John 99 8 2 2 1 2 1 31 27 Vic Willis 96 7 2 1 3 1 32 28 Dale Murphy 95 9 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 33 37 Lou Brock 93 9 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 34 35 Larry Doyle 89 7 1 3 1 1 1 35 23 Elston Howard 88 10 1 1 4 1 2 1 36 32 Bob Elliott 86 8 1 2 2 2 1 37 39 Norm Cash 85 8 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 38 34 Bobby Bonds 84 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 39 25 Dizzy Dean 83 7 1 1 1 1 1 2 40 42 Wally Schang 76 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 41 46 Bill Monroe 71 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 42 43 Lee Smith 61 4 2 1 1 43 44 Carl Mays 59 5 1 1 1 1 1 44 40 Pie Traynor 58 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 45 48 Bert Campaneris 58 5 2 1 1 1 46 41 Orlando Cepeda 56 5 1 2 1 1 47 38 Ben Taylor 53 5 1 1 1 1 1 48 45 Dave Bancroft 50 5 2 1 1 1 49 47 Ed Williamson 50 4 1 1 1 1 50 53 Sal Bando 49 4 2 1 1 51 50 Vern Stephens 48 4 1 1 1 1 52 49 Chuck Klein 47 4 1 1 2 53 60 Addie Joss 42 3 1 1 1 54 62 Lance Parrish 39 4 1 1 2 55 52 Frank Tanana 36 2 1 1 56T 54 Ernie Lombardi 34 3 1 1 1 56T 65T Tony Mullane 34 3 1 1 1 58 51 Johnny Pesky 33 4 1 1 2 59 55T Leroy Matlock 33 3 2 1 60 65T Bruce Sutter 32 3 1 1 1 61 58 Wilbur Cooper 31 2 1 1 62 59 Thurman Munson 30 3 1 1 1 63T 73 Buddy Bell 29 2 1 1 63T 55T Don Mattingly 29 2 1 1 65 61 Jack Quinn 28 3 1 1 1 66 67 Jimmy Ryan 28 2 1 1 67T 75T Dwight Gooden 26 3 1 1 1 67T 74 Rabbit Maranville 26 3 1 1 1 69 69 Sam Rice 25 3 1 1 1 70 68 Ed Cicotte 25 2 1 1 71 63 Al Rosen 24 3 1 2 72T 72 Frank Chance 22 2 1 1 72T 57 Urban Shocker 22 2 1 1 74 70T Fred Dunlap 21 3 1 1 1 75 77 Jim Kaat 21 2 1 1 76T n/e Harold Baines 20 2 1 1 76T 75T Lefty Gomez 20 2 1 1 78T 64 George J. Burns 17 2 1 1 78T 82 Dave Parker 17 2 1 1 80 70T Jim Rice 16 2 1 1 81 87 Frank Howard 15 2 1 1 82T 86 Luis Aparicio 14 1 1 82T 88 Brian Downing 14 1 1 82T 79 Tony Oliva 14 1 1 85 89 Jim McCormick 13 2 1 1 86 n/e Jose Canseco 13 1 1 87 90T Jack Clark 12 1 1 88T 84 Hack Wilson 11 1 1 88T 92 Sam Leever 11 1 1 90T n/e Tony Fernandez 10 1 1 90T 93T Carlos Morán 10 1 1 90T 93T Dizzy Trout 10 1 1 93T 93T Tommy Bond 9 1 1 93T 96T Fielder Jones 9 1 1 93T n/e Paul O'Neill 9 1 1 93T 90T Virgil Trucks 9 1 1 97T n/e Dom DiMaggio 8 1 1 97T 98T George Kell 8 1 1 97T 85 Tony Lazzeri 8 1 1 97T 96T Jack Morris 8 1 1 101T 98T Elmer Smith 7 1 1 101T 102 Jim Fregosi 7 1 1 101T 102 Charlie Hough 7 1 1 101T 100 Bill Madlock 7 1 1 101T 78 Bobby Veach 7 1 1 106 102 Al Oliver 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Brett Butler(106), Ron Cey(83), Luke Easter(80T), Orel Hershiser(100), Dutch Leonard(107), Bill Mazeroski(80T), Gene Tenace(107), Mickey Vernon(102). Ballots Cast: 48 Thanks to Ron and OCF for their help again with the tally! John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: November 12, 2007 at 11:59 PM | 62 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2007 at 03:02 AM (#2612916)HOF-not-HOM through 2007
1 Aparicio, Luis
2 Bancroft, Dave
3 Bender, Chief
4 Bottomley, Jim
5 Brock, Lou
6 Cepeda, Orlando
7 Chance, Frank
8 Chesbro, Jack
9 Combs, Earle
10 Cooper, Andy
11 Cuyler, Kiki
12 Dandridge, Ray
13 Day, Leon
14 Dean, Dizzy
15 Duffy, Hugh
16 Evers, Johnny
17 Ferrell, Rick
18 Gomez, Lefty
19 Grimes, Burleigh
20 Hafey, Chick
21 Haines, Jesse
22 Hooper, Harry
23 Hoyt, Waite
24 Hunter, Catfish
25 Jackson, Travis
26 Johnson, Judy
27 Joss, Addie
28 Kell, George
29 Kelly, George
30 Klein, Chuck
31 Lazzeri, Tony
32 Lindstrom, Freddie
33 Lombardi, Ernie
34 Manush, Heinie
35 Maranville, Rabbit
36 Marquard, Rube
37 Mazeroski, Bill
38 McCarthy, Tommy
39 McGraw, John
40 Pennock, Herb
41 Perez, Tony
42 Puckett, Kirby
43 Rice, Sam
44 Rizzuto, Phil
45 Schalk, Ray
46 Schoendienst, Red
47 Smith, Hilton
48 Sutter, Bruce
49 Taylor, Ben
50 Tinker, Joe
51 Traynor, Pie
52 Waner, Lloyd
53 Welch, Mickey
54 Willis, Vic
55 Wilson, Hack
56 Youngs, Ross
HOM-not-HOF
1 Allen, Dick
2 Barnes, Ross
3 Beckwith, John
4 Bennett, Charlie
5 Blyleven, Bert
6 Boyer, Ken
7 Browning, Pete
8 Caruthers, Bob
9 Childs, Cupid
10 Clark, Will
11 Dahlen, Bill
12 Dawson, Andre
13 Evans, Darrell
14 Evans, Dwight
15 Ferrell, Wes
16 Freehan, Bill
17 Glasscock, Jack
18 Gordon, Joe
19 Gore, George
20 Gossage, Rich
21 Grich, Bobby
22 Groh, Heinie
23 Hack, Stan
24 Hernandez, Keith
25 Hines, Paul
26 Jackson, Joe*
27 Johnson, Home Run
28 Jones, Charley
29 Keller, Charlie
30 Magee, Sherry
31 McGwire, Mark
32 McVey, Cal
33 Minoso, Minnie
34 Moore, Dobie
35 Nettles, Graig
36 Oms, Alejandro
37 Pearce, Dickey
38 Pierce, Billy
39 Pike, Lip
40 Randolph, Willie
41 Richardson, Hardy
42 Rose, Pete*
43 Santo, Ron
44 Sheckard, Jimmy
45 Simmons, Ted
46 Start, Joe
47 Stieb, Dave
48 Stovey, Harry
49 Sutton, Ezra
50 Torre, Joe
51 Trammell, Alan
52 Trouppe, Quincy
53 Whitaker, Lou
54 White, Deacon
55 Wynn, Jimmy
* not eligible for the HOF
Two what, Juan.
I went through many of the old spreadsheets to see if he had made the top-ten, but I obviously didn't go through every one. Thanks, Chris!
I'd like to see a graph on the number of ballots cast each year throughout the HoM. I'm sure it's a climb from the beginning to now, but I'd like to see how steep.
C- Elston Howard #34 Wally Schang 40--looks like we'll be short of catchers for awhile
1B- Tony Perez 12
2B- Larry Doyle 34 Bill Monroe 41
SS- Phil Rizzuto 14 (with WWII credit) Dick Lundy 16 Bus Clarkson 19 Dave Concepcion 23--not that we need any more SS just yet
3B- Tommy Leach 8 John McGraw 15
LF- Bob Johnson 9
CF- Reggie Smith 5 Kirby Puckett 10
RF- Gavvy Cravath 11 Ken Singleton 21
SP- Saberhagen 4 Redding 6 Walters 7 Tiant 13--we might correct our pitcher shortage if we stay at this long enough
RP- Lee Smith 42--beats Sutter!
Unlikeliest to Succeed
C- Brian Downing 1 ballot
1B- Al Oliver 1 ballot
2B- Tony Lazzeri 1 ballot
SS- Jim Fregosi 1 ballot
3B- Bill (don't call me Leroy) Madlock 1 ballot
LF- Bobby Veach 1 ballot
CF- Fielder Jones even more unlikely than Dom DiMaggio 1 ballot each
RF- Paul O'Neill 1 ballot--now, that's a timeline (half of Dewey Evans, who was borderline)
SP- Charlie Hough, Jack Morris, Butch Trucks, Elmer Fudd, Tommy Bond, Sam Leever, Dizzy Trout Mask Replica 1 each
RP- All of them
I agree they "look" good, but there were a bunch of guys who didn't vote this year. I don't think the overall eval of John McGraw has really changed.
But anyway, Sabes and Reggie would sure be a lot better choices than Bob Johnson. Redding, Reggie, Walters, Leach and Puckett are all PHoM.
We started with 29 voters in 1898, reaching 45 in 1917.
The peak occurred at 56 ballots for 1934, later tied.
Decline set in, dropping to 45 in 1967, the lowest since the early years.
56 was attained again in 1982 and 1990.
Recent low was 47 in 2000-2001.
However, except for the post-season credit, Rick Reuschel bests him in pretty much every dimension of the game, so if we start sweating the details to assess Hershiser accurately, we ought to do the same for Reuschel, who is the candidate I'd love to see pull a Nettles next year.
Raines, Saberhagen, and Smith would not be a bad set of picks for 2008, though.
You don't mean to include "peak" as a dimension of the game, then, I'm guessing? Or fitness?
As to peak, is Hershiser's 1984-89 really better than Reuschel's 1973-79?
Yes, Hershiser has the gaudier ERA+ scores and IP totals relative to context, but when you account for Hershiser's getting to play in a good pitcher's park (93-98 PF during his peak) in Dodger Stadium while Reuschel was laboring in Wrigley field while it was a hitter's paradise (105 to 112 PF during his peak) and for Hershiser getting, well, average fielding support while Reuschel got _terrible_ fielding support, Reuschel's peak starts looking pretty good.
You recall Joe Dimino saying a number of times about Reuschel that his 1977 was truly one of the great pitching seasons of the decade? You might ask him if he thinks Hershiser has any season that matches it: the answer, I would guess, is no.
These are the kinds of details that need to be sweated in both cases. Dissing Reuschel because he was a fat guy who played for bad teams isn't close to a fair assessment of his case.
McGraw got screwed by Parkinson's voting a minute too late, and by the absence of Mark Shirk. Hope they're there for 2008.
Reuschel's fielders weren't *that* bad, Chris. BP says they cost him about 2 points of RA+. I'm a big Reuschel fan, but his case doesn't revolve around being the victim of poor fielders--rather, it's that he was a long-career pitcher with good ERA+ and legit Cy Young-type peak seasons in an era when those guys were few and far between. If you group him with the 70's star glut, he doesn't look so impressive, but their careers started 7-8 years earlier than his. If you group him with guys like Stieb, then he looks like a no-brainer. My analysis suggests the latter interpretation is more accurate.
For his _career_, no, but check out the difference between his NRA and DERA during the 1973-79 stretch:
NRA / DERA
3.66 / 3.51
4.88 / 4.31
4.51 / 4.02
4.14 / 4.00
2.84 / 2.65
3.67/ 3.72
3.79 / 3.68
What particularly caught my attention were 1974-75: his fielders cost him half a run each season -- that's about 10 points of RA+. Sunnyday2 was talking about peak, and I would claim that Reuschel's weak fielding support makes his peak in particular appear lower than it was.
My e-mail? It's chris[underscore]cobb[at]earthlink[dot]net
I am working to get a revised version of DERA using DRA fielding adjustments in time for the 2008 ballot.
I agree, Marc, and that's why I didn't state that it was a certainty.
TOP 10, ALL-TIME
DUFFY...... 26614.5
VAN HALTREN 26506.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
Childs..... 18484
WELCH...... 18187
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
REDDING.... 17266
Jennings... 16976
CJones..... 15875
Bresnahan.. 14965
TLEACH..... 14866
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12574.5
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005
Bennett.... 11503
CRAVATH.....11218
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
WALTERS.....10777
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
HStovey......9576
DOYLE....... 9572
GRIMES.......9119
Mackey.......8930
BJOHNSON.....8836
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
MCGRAW.......7575
BMONROE......7544
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6641
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
Sheckard.....6377
Others in active top 50
Williamson 6341, Willis 5577, Dean 5302, Elliott 4788, Joss 4583, Bridges 4425, BTaylor 4185, TPerez 3685, Rizzuto 3655, FChance 3633, CMays 3497, Traynor 3447, NCash 3384, Cepeda 3348, McCormick 3176, SRice 3163, Cicotte 3079, Brock 2832, Tiant 2825, ReSmith 2786, Tiernan 2692X, FJones 2596, EHoward 2498, Klein 2444, Veach 2346, Stephens 2312, GJBurns 2298, Singleton 2265, BoBonds 2251, Mullane 2221, Staub 2158, Lombardi 2074, Dunlap 2036, BClarkson 1950, Bancroft 1899, Lundy 1878
(just missed)
Poles 1842X, Hooper 1792X, Griffin 1726.5X
I'm shocked that Dick Lundy didn't get more traction.
Trust me, between me, 'zop, you, and even people who more or less hate me like sunnyday (JOKE), the electorate will be hearing a LOT about Lundy in the next two weeks. If we can get everyone to give him a full and fair review, I'm extremely optimistic about his 2008 chances.
Sabes vs. Cone is a standard deviation and cohort issue.
Looking at the DRA numbers for the '77 Cubs, the main reason the team grades out badly is that the team had an inordinately low number of infield popups--51 runs' worth below average. Since those plays are virtually automatic and discretionary, they really don't tell you very much about the quality of the fielders.
What is the problem in detail? Evidently putouts count more at some fielding positions than at others, so a team defense may be rated better or worse (locally overrated or underrated) depending on who catches a pop fly. For example, if "Snags" Reuschel scampers from the mound all over the infield, taking everything he can reach, that causes his team defense to be underrated?
Wow, one of the least listenable records that Rock-Crit types love to list as highly influential.
I'm not the guy to examine pitching, I just don't do well with it. But I think if someone can get a chart together that shows us pertinent information about:
Dean
Walters
Resuchel
Tiant
Cone
Saberhagen
Hershiser
it would be most helpful. Perhaps also include some comparable HOMers as well.
In other news, come on Tommy Leach!
andrew siegel--Most of Nettles' support came from career voters, and Cey didn't last long enough for them.
It may be common to re-examine those candidates who (re)gain "elect me" bonus points more closely than backlog candidates further down the ballot.
With those two qualifications, the 2007 results show that Redding, McGraw, Smith, Saberhagen, and Puckett are positioned to (re)gain the most bonus points in 2008. In particular, the leaders Smith and Saberhagen are not notably weak in this regard. If Redding (re)gains eight bonuses and Smith five, for example, that makes up only about one quarter of the gap between them.
Charlie Bennett
Pete Browning
Roger Bresnahan
Jim Bunning
Stan Coveleski
Don Drysdale
Buck Ewing
Wes Ferrell
Rollie Fingers
Whitey Ford
Joe Gordon
Rick Gossage
Hughie Jennings
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
Ralph Kiner
Bob Lemon
Juan Marichal
Jose Mendez
Hal Newhouser
Alejandro Oms
Billy Pierce
Hardy Richardson
Dave Stieb
Sam Thompson
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Hoyt Wilhelm
George Wright
George van Haltren
Jimmy Ryan
Tommy Leach
Spotswood Poles
Mickey Welch
Hugh Duffy
Harry Hooper
Rabbit Maranville
Sam Rice
Hilton Smith
Sam Streeter
Frank Howard
Norm Cash
Lou Brock
Bobby Bonds
Orlando Cepeda
Reggie Smith
Rusty Staub
Al Oliver
Tony Perez
Dave Parker
Ken Singleton
Jack Clark
Bob Johnson
Ted Strong
Brett Butler
Kirby Puckett
Vic Willis
Dale Murphy
Obviously there are a nubmer that I would now change. Mostly it was the shiny new toy thing that got people inducted while I was still too enamored with them.
Dean
Walters
Resuchel
Tiant
Cone
Saberhagen
Hershiser
"
I think Dick Redding (especially on a peak/prime analysis) holds up well against any of these guys. Do the MLE's already figure in war credit?
No. He missed a little more than one full season (about 2/3 of '18 and 2/3 of '19). The MLEs give him 6 WS for the one and 4 for the other. His preceding seasons were 40-33-27 and his following seasons were 19-21-19. A conservative amount of war credit would give him another 30 WS for the time he missed.
Paul Wendt--In DRA, all infield fly outs are considered automatic outs and treated like strikeouts, credited to the pitcher, no matter who catches them. They have no effect on the evaluation of the fielders.
In #29, I was guessing the significance of discretionary plays in #21 (quoted again below). Having guessed wrong I don't have another guess.
from DanR on Reuschel #21
I don't want to argue against Reuschel since I really like him, but I think BP is being too generous on its fielding adjustment for 1977. Looking at the DRA numbers for the '77 Cubs, the main reason the team grades out badly is that the team had an inordinately low number of infield popups--51 runs' worth below average. Since those plays are virtually automatic and discretionary, they really don't tell you very much about the quality of the fielders.
181. Eric Chalek (Dr. Chaleeko) Posted: November 13, 2007 at 10:20 AM (#2613304)
Wow, my basement-bound consensus score has recently taken a turn for the downright agreeable. Ghastly, I tell you.
Maybe you have become influential Eric. Still ghastly?
More likely the fine-tuned consensus algorithm goes haywire with data such as 2007 provides - "elect three" with three nearly unanimous newcomers.
Marc,
Regarding the meteoric rise of Graig Nettles, I know you mean his two giant steps at the end, 180 to 230 to 320 points. Dobie Moore was a notable celestial body of some kind, maybe a comet with a long orbit. I suspect that he would not have reached the zenith without your campaign.
You observed that pop putouts are discretionary so I was guessing how that would affect the WARP measure of infield defense, presumably via who was catching the pop flies --discretion within the infield was my public guess (although Reuschel scampering off the mound was facetious).
My second guess would have been that their outfielders handled a high share of pops. The outfielders have better perspective, maybe that is overriding against the daytime sky. By the way did the Cubs frequently trail the league in infield pops? (51 estimated runs below average in 1977. Wow!) If so then I wonder too whether batter hit more pop flies at night.
Note that this still means WARP is double-counting, since it first applies a park factor and then applies the NRA-DERA adjustment. That said, we're squabbling over peanuts in this case--DRA has Chicago's team D at -21 in 1977, BP has it at -32.
Correct.
-- MWE
I would greatly appreciate any members of the HoM electorate who drop in and contribute their expert opinion.
I totally agree. Veach is out-polling Cravath 12-5 at present?!? Even Babe Adams gets more love (7-5). We need a few more good voters over there.
Not to mention where is the 1910s poll? I suppose I should just poke around but the thing strikes me as byzantine.
Of course, we can quibble about who goes in which decade.
The slashes? (/) The first marks the border between "frontlog" and "midlog", the second between "midlog" and "backlog". Front-loggers got more than 50% of the #1's (or would have if not for the presence of another "front-logger" on the ballot, eg Ruth vs Hornsby). Midloggers didn't get 50% but also didn't mingle with the real backloggers (more formal def'n courtesy of Paul Wendt).
HOM-not HOF
1860's 1 // Start Pearce
1870's 8 White Hines / Barnes / Sutton McVey Pike CJones
1880's 7 / Gore / Glasscock Richardson Stovey Bennett Caruthers Browning
1890's 2 Dahlen // Childs
1900's 3 // GJohnson Magee Sheckard
1910's 2 / JJackson Groh /
1920's 3 // Beckwith Moore Oms
1930's 2 // Ferrell Trouppe
1940's 3 // Hack Gordon Keller
1950's 3 // Pierce Minoso Boyer
1960's 5 Santo / Allen Torre / Freehan JWynn
1970's 7 Rose Blyleven Grich Gossage / TSimmons DaEvans / Nettles
1980's 7 Trammell Whitaker / Hernandez DwEvans / Randolph Stieb Dawson
1990's 2 McGwire / WClark /
serious but marginal candidates for a writer's HOM
Proofread, then post. Not the reverse...
Actually, I prefer the format of their forums to those here at BBTF. Two main reasons: 1) You can EDIT your posts whenever you want; 2) Anyone can post a poll - You can set a closing date if you want; you can allow multiple choices or not; you can set it to see who cast votes, or not.
I wonder if you're not having browser issues. I use IE or AOL browser and have no trouble. The only time you should get the message "you cannot vote on this poll" is if you're not logged in or if you've already voted on the poll.
The link I provided is to the introductory thread for the project. The last post there has links to the three threads with the polls posted in the project so far: the 1910's, 1920's and 1930's. The poll is at the top of each thread.
1860's 0
1870's 0
1880's 1 Welch
1890's 2 TMcCarthy Duffy
1900's 7 Chesbro Willis Chance Joss Tinker Evers Bender
1910's 7 Marquard Hooper Taylor SRice Bancroft Maranville Schalk
1920's 17 Haines Grimes Pennock GKelly Youngs ACooper Cuyler Combs Hoyt Traynor
---------- Bottomley HWilson JJohnson Manush TJackson Lazzeri Lindstrom
1930's 10 Hafey Klein RFerrell LWaner HSmith Lombardi Gomez Dean Dandridge Day
1940's 3 Rizzuto Kell Schoendiesnt
1950's 0
1960's 4 Aparicio Mazeroski Cepeda Brock
1970's 3 Perez Hunter Sutter
1980's 1 Puckett
1990's 0
----
And we thought we had problems with too many guys from the 1920's/1930's...
Or were part of the '27 Yankees. (A ploy on their part to defuse criticism of the buddy selections?)
Yes.
I made the judgment call to depart from the formal definition in case of Joe Jackson and therefore Pete Hill. I overlooked Jackson's poor showing when he was newly eligible and called a "quasi-first ballot" HOMer. In turn Pete Hill did not finish behind a real backlogger (Jackson) so he is also a quasi-first ballot HOMer. If jimd made the same call, he would promote Jackson to the frontlog but leave Hill in the midlog, I think.
(Given 'frontlog' and 'backlog', this new 'midlog' is a happily coined term. The midlog is all of my quasi-first ballot HOMers who are not in the frontlog. Hill is not on jimd's list for the 1900s or 1910s because the HOF elected him last year.)
A few real backloggers made strong showings here in some informal sense. Glasscock, certainly. Maybe Richardson and one or more of the 1900s.
This makes Jackson and Hill mid-loggers both. Even in his election year, Jackson received only 35% of the #1's, Pete Hill and the backlog being the only competition, and Hill only got one #1, though he received a number of #2's behind Jackson.
A few real backloggers made strong showings here in some informal sense. Glasscock, certainly. Maybe Richardson and one or more of the 1900s.
Radbourn edged Wright in 1898 by 7 points. Voters then backed off on Radbourn while we debated early pitching and fielding, causing him to sink down into the backlog, carrying the status of Keefe, Wright, Glasscock, and Rusie with him. Those 4 would otherwise be mid-loggers.
Arm 6
Blyleven Gossage Caruthers Ferrell Pierce
Stieb
Bat 20
Rose McGwire Hines Gore WClark
JJackson Hernandez DyEvans Start Stovey
Magee Sheckard Pike Minoso Keller
JWynn CJones Browning Dawson Oms
Glv 29
White Dahlen Santo Grich Trammell
Whitaker Barnes Allen Torre Groh
Glasscock Richardson Sutton McVey Bennett
GJohnson Pearce Beckwith Hack Gordon
Freehan Childs Boyer Moore TSimmons
DlEvans Trouppe Randolph Nettles
Arm 17
Chesbro *Pennock *Dean Bender Grimes
Hoyt Haines Marquard Gomez Welch
Joss *Hunter Willis Day HSmith
*Sutter Cooper
Bat 20
Duffy Chance McCarthy SRice Manush
LWaner Cuyler Combs Hafey Hooper
Youngs GKelly Bottomley HWilson Klein
*Brock Cepeda *Perez *Puckett Taylor
Glv 18
Evers Tinker *Traynor *Maranville Schalk
Bancroft JJohnson Lindstrom TJackson Kell
*Aparicio RFerrell Lombardi Dandridge Schoendienst
Lazzeri Rizzuto Mazeroski
*Denotes BBWAA selection
We have dumped a number of pitchers, replacing them with every-day players at the glove positions.
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