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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, February 19, 20072007 Veterans Committee Ballot - PlayersIMPORTANT: Please read: This election should follow Veterans Committee rules, not Hall of Merit rules. The election will end next Monday (8 PM EDT). Here are some of the rules by the Veterans Committee that pertain to our electorate: 6. Eligible Candidates — Eligible candidates must be selected from: (A) Major League players who competed in any portion of at least ten (10) championship seasons and who have been retired as players for at least twenty-one (21) years. In addition, players whose service in the Negro Baseball Leagues prior to 1946 and the Major Leagues thereafter total at least ten years or portions thereof are defined as eligible candidates. (B) Baseball Executives and/or Managers and/or Umpires who have been retired from organized Baseball as Baseball Executives and/or Managers and/or Umpires for at least five (5) years prior to the election. If the candidate is 65 years old at the time of retirement, the waiting period is reduced to six (6) months. If the candidate reaches the age of 65 during the five-year waiting period the candidate becomes eligible six months after the candidate’s 65th birthday. (C) Those whose careers entailed involvement as both players and managers/executives/umpires will be considered for their overall contribution to the game of Baseball; however, the specific category in which such individuals shall be considered will be determined by the role in which they were most prominent. In those instances when a candidate is prominent as both a player and as a manager, executive or umpire, the BBWAA Screening Committee shall determine that individual’s candidacy as either a player (Players Ballot), or as a manager, executive or umpire (Composite Ballot). Candidates may only appear on one ballot per election. Those designated as players must fulfill the requirements of 6 (A). (D) Any person designated by the Office of the Commissioner of Major League Baseball as ineligible shall not be an eligible candidate. 10. Voting — The Committee shall consider all eligible candidates and voting shall be based upon the individual’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted. 11. Number to be Elected — All candidates receiving votes on at least 75% of ballots cast on the separate Players Ballot and Composite Ballot will earn election. The eligible candidates are: Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Ken Boyer, Rocky Colavito, Wes Ferrell, Curt Flood, Joe Gordon, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Mickey Lolich, Sparky Lyle, Marty Marion, Roger Maris, Carl Mays, Minnie Minoso, Thurman Munson, Don Newcombe, Lefty O’Doul, Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson, Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre, Cecil Travis, Mickey Vernon and Maury Wills
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: February 19, 2007 at 01:11 PM | 83 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 19, 2007 at 01:28 PM (#2299936)1) Dick Allen - 1B/3B/LF
2) Joe Gordon - 2B
3) Minnie Minoso - LF/3B
4) Ron Santo - 3B
5) Joe Torre - C/1B/3B
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
Hodges only with a big managing boost, of course, which HOM doesn't offer.
Gordon
Minoso
Santo
Torre
They're all in my PHoM so they're easy choices. But this is Cooperstown not my PHoM and there are others on the ballot who are better than, say, a 25th to even 50th percentile HoFer. So why not? They're not the best candidates out there, just the best ones on this ballot. So I will add:
Newcombe
Boyer
Munson
Bonds
Ferrell and Tiant just miss.
Ferrell
Gordon
Oliva
Santo
I'm maxing out at ten, and I'm confident in about eight of them.
-Ron Santo (I currently rank him 6th at 3B among eligibles)
-Dick Allen (10th at 1B)
-Wes Ferrell (43rd)
-Minnie Minoso (12th in LF)
-Joe Torre (13th at 3b, 16th at C, and 18th at 1B, combined 16th)
-Bobby Bonds (16th at RF)
-Curt Flood (Special consideration for contribution to game)
-Don Newcombe (58th---this now includes NgL credit as appropriate.)
-Luis Tiant (58th)
-Thurman Munson (21st at C, but will soon be knocked out of the loop by either Posada's continuing productivity or by I-Rod and Piazza's becoming eligible.)
1) Dick Allen - PHOM'ed on playing alone. A NB
2) Minnie Minoso - ditto.
3) Ron Santo - Ditto.
4) Joe Torre - Ditto (caveat - I would understand him not being elected now as he is still an active manager. It makes some sense to wait until he's through with that.)
5) Ken Boyer - High in my personal backlog. More people elected this year will raise the number in the hall as a whole and lower my in-out line. Not a bad thing for a self-admitted big-hall guy.
6) Jim Kaat - Long, very good career as a player and commentator. Adds up.
7) Gil Hodges - Long and very good career as a player and a tragically short and very sweet career as a manager. Adds up.
8) Tony Oliva - More people in the hall would lower the in/out bar just enough to get him over mine.
9) Al Oliver - Ditto.
Ken Boyer
Joe Gordon
Minnie Minoso
Thurman Munson
Don Newcombe
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
I have voted for seven of these players on my Hall of Merit ballots, and therefore consider them all to be worthy of the Hall of Fame also. The other, Munson, hasn't yet made my ballot but is above my in/out line.
Gordon
Minoso
Santo
Allen
Bonds
The most interesting case is O'Doul, who doesn't make my cut. If only he'd started out as an outfielder....
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Lefty O’Doul
Ron Santo
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Ron Santo
So, those of you voting for Dick Allen either glossed over that aspect of rule #10 that suggests voting have a basis containing jugdgements of character, sportsmanship and integrity; or you have rationalized all his well documented character flaws as not significant enough to warrant non-selection.
I ceratinly would consider Dick Allen for the HoM; I'd never elect Dick Allen to the HoF.
Dick Allen said and did a lot of things. Here's some things Dick Allen didn't do (that I know of), things that guys in the Hall did do:
-Get accused of throwing games
-Consort with known gamblers
-Beat up fans while they were in the stands
-Hit the catcher over the head with his bat
-Enforce the color line
-Draw the color line
-Miss part of a season possibly due to syphillitic conditions
-Get caught doing coke or steroids
-Demand players in his service pay for the laundering of their uniforms
-Put a midget into a game
-Join the KKK.
That's just a little list. There's plenty of bad, distasteful, and just inappropriate behavior in The Coop. Unless I see evidence of game throwing, I'm not going down that line of inquiry.
Oh, I don't know, Dr. C. I thought that the Eddie Gaedel stunt was kind of neat. At least Veeck wasn't promoting dwarf throwing contests between games of a doubleheader.
But you can see by my vote that I agree with you about Allen.
Flood
O'Doul
Oliva
Santo
Tiant
Torre
jingoist, several of these (? not necessarily the early voters; I don't recall) have discussed Allen's character and agreed with the revision by Craig Wright, a SABR journal "cover story" several years ago.
The most deserving players are Jim White, Bill Dahlen, Paul Hines, Ross Barnes. For you newcomers, that is fin de siecle shortstop Dahlen and three from the first Hall of Merit induction.
Ferrell
Gordon
Mays
Minoso
Santo
Torre
--
Newcombe - not easy. Anyone who is generous with war credit may see him as a clear choice.
Boyer - not quite
Munson - not quite not quite
Oliva, Oliver, Pinson - ditto ditto ditto
Dick Allen
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Saturnino Orestes Armas Miñoso Arrieta
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
2. Ron Santo
3. Minnie Minoso
4. Joe Torre
5. Dick Allen
6. Bobby Bonds
7. Ken Boyer
8. Don Newcombe
9. Joe Gordon
Allen fought against authority, disobeyed team rules, and split up teammates into feuding factions. He also was one of the greatest hitters of his generation. I've tried to balance the pluses and minuses, and this is where I come out.
Honorable mention (none of these guys would significantly lower the bar at Cooperstown) goes to Pinson, Munson, Oliva, Tiant, Mays, Hodges, and Kaat.
I recognized most of the others but which Hall of Famer does this describe?
I believe that would be Hornsby and Speaker.
He also fought a teammate on the field before a game, consistently showed up to games after drinking, drank during games, refused to do meet'n'greet PR in LA (a main reason why O'Malley traded him), flatout stopped playing for the White Sox late in 1974, and forced the team to commit the Chris Kahrl Crime Against Humanity -- they wasted their 25th roster spot on his brother so the lesser Allen could qualify for his pension.
-Hit the catcher over the head with his bat
Did he hit Frank Thomas with a bat or was it the other way around?
-Miss part of a season possibly due to syphillitic conditions
Is it more moral to consistently miss sizable chunks of the season due to indifference to conditioning? No spyhillitic conditions, but constant injuries.
-Get caught doing coke or steroids
Which player(s) in Cooperstown got caught doing steroids. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any known cokeheads in there either.
-Put a midget into a game
This didn't hurt the team, though. Gaedel drew a walk. As a publicity stunt, it helped the Browns earn some much needed revenue.
He also never molested children, committed war crimes, or hit any homers off of Lee Smith.
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
Minnie Minoso
Ken Boyer
Dick Allen
Joe Gordon
Just missed: Hodges
Is #9 or #10 your "real" ballot?
pocket
You get 10 of each. Do you want to change either ballot?
Is Newk in or out?
Who knew Dick Allen and Tom Glavine had something in common?
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Joe Torre (especially with combo credit)
2. Joe Torre
3. Joe Gordon
4. Minnie Minoso
5. Ken Boyer
6. Jim Kaat
7. Don Newcombe
8. Luis Tiant
9. Mickey Vernon
10. Cecil Travis
Which player(s) in Cooperstown got caught doing steroids. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any known cokeheads in there either.
Paul Molitor was a cokehead for a while.
My understanding is that Thomas hit Allen's right shoulder, which may have led to Allen's trouble with throwing errors. I could be mistaken, and I don't know whether Allen had a bat in his hands.
Is it more moral to consistently miss sizable chunks of the season due to indifference to conditioning? No spyhillitic conditions, but constant injuries.
I agree with you here at a persoal level. At the level of character and morals, our society has a problem with VD and with the kinds of behaviors that lead to it. But the Hall's character stuff was written in the 1930s when consorting with loose women, prostitutes, multiple partners, etc... were more frowned upon than today. That's what I was getting at, but I didn't phrase it well.
Which player(s) in Cooperstown got caught doing steroids.
Correct, my bad. But...
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any known cokeheads in there either.
Molitor as Andy mentions and Harveys will attest.
This didn't hurt the team, though. Gaedel drew a walk. As a publicity stunt, it helped the Browns earn some much needed revenue.
I'm not certain about this. Gaedel was struck from the record books by MLB, and I think there's a faction of people who strongly believe that this stunt made a mockery of the game and showed poor character in the form of valuing promotion over the integrity of the game.
He also never molested children, committed war crimes, or hit any homers off of Lee Smith.
Who we talking about here?
So yours is not a collaborative ballot? ; )
Ferrell
Flood
Gordon
Minoso
Santo
Tiant
Torre
He did thank a few people in his acknowledgements, though. ;-)
:-)
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Minnie Minoso
Thurman Munson
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
Cecil Travis
It's a lonely business, this faux HOF voting.
Dick Allen
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Minnie Minoso
Thurman Munson
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
Not so. Or if so, for the briefest of times. Gaedel's in every record book I've seen, including a 1956 Turkin-Thompson. AL president Will Harridge wanted to strike him, but was unsuccessful. Bill Veeck's recollection of it is
here.
Bonds
Boyer
Gordon
Hodges
Mays
Minoso
Santo
Torre
Ferrell
Gordon
Santo
Torre
-- MWE
Allen - Dick or not, he was one helluva hitter
Boyer - Very good defensive 3B with enough peak and prime
Ferrell - Very nice peak, his hitting is what really seperated him
Santo - One of the 10 best, hell possibly one of the 7 best 3B ever.
Gordon - I have him as better than Bobby Doerr and I have no problem with Doerr election
Torre - I don't think I rated him as highly as most as his time spent at 3B and 1B brought the value of his peak down vs. other catchers
Almost voted for:
Flood - Not very close as a player, but I can see the argument for letting him in. Still, I dont' think it was enough.
Minoso - The only HOMer on the ballot that I am not voting for. I do not believe that his pre-MLB days were as valuable and many do (he was in fact 25, not 28 when he reached MLB) so there is no missing peak. I did not support him for the HOM and he would only be in the 30's for me if he were still eligible.
<u>2007 Veterans Committee – Players Ballot</u>
Richard Anthony Allen
Big bat. Big numbers. Big chip on his shoulder, too.
Kenton Lloyd Boyer
On the border, but I think just in, especially considering the dearth of third basemen.
Carl William Mays
I think his failure to be elected is thanks to Ray Chapman. Among the best of the day, and one of the finest submariners.
Saturnino Orestes Armas Minoso Arrieta – “Minnie”
No one really has a career quite like his. I'm a little surprised the Negro League committee didn't enshrine him last year. They were probably waiting for this group.
Ronald Edward Santo
The one guy who absolutely must get elected. His omission is a travesty, pure and simple.
Joseph Paul Torre
Once he retires from managing, his election will be guaranteed. An outstanding collective career.
The two nearest omissions were Joe Gordon, who I was always on the fence about in the HOM, and Jim Kaat, who I think is not quite as good as Tommy John, who I haven't quite gotten around to voting for yet. Maybe next time.
Hodges - w/ managing credit
Maris - I'm a proponent of the idea that "Fame" has a role in the Hall of Fame
Minoso
O'Doul - non-playing credit, of course
Santo
Torre - w/ managing credit (although he may not need it)
Joe Gordon
Orestes Minoso
Don Newcombe
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
(Everyone on the pre-lim ballot is better than someone already in the HoF.)
(and Deacon White, Paul Hines, Bill Dahlen, Ross Barnes, Charley Jones, and many other 19th Century Stars...)
Allen
Boyer
Ferrell
Gordon (even though I wasn't exactly a supporter)
Minoso
Santo
Torre
write in: Dahlen
Couldn't agree more on this one.
If they did, how many players should they aim to induct?
Counting George Wright (Pioneer), Al Spalding and Clark Griffith (Executive) as players instead, nineteenth century eras are represented this way at the Hall:
-1858-1870 Early baseball: 1
-1870s-1880s Early League: 2 (actually half of Anson’s career and half of O’Rourke’s)
-1880s Two-league: 11
-1890s: 13.5 (half of Young’s career is in the deadball era
What is the distribution of the 201 MLB HOFs by decade? [Note that adding hte NgLs would really shift the balance to the 1920s-1940s, though not perhaps if looked at team seasons per decade.]
DECADE NO. HOFS &#xHO;FS------------------------
1920s 30 14.9%
1930s 26 12.9%
1960s 21 10.4%
1900s 20.5 10.2%
1950s 18 9.0%
1970s 17 8.5%
1890s 14.5* 7.2%
1910s 14 7.0%
1880s 12 6.0%
1980s 15 7.5%
1940s 10 5.0%
1870s 3** 1.5%
=======================
AVERAGE 16.8 9%
*The 1890s and 1900s includes one-half of Cy Young each
**The 1870s and 1880s each include one half of Cap Anson and Jim O’Rourke
Both the 1880s and 1890s rates of representation are below average, and the 1870s and before are virtually unrepresented. The 1890s could take another two to three electees without seeming bloated, and the 1880s could take another four to five. The 1870s are taking applications at the front desk.
So let's break it down this way:
1890s: 2 or 3
1880s: 4 or 5
early-1870s: 10 or more
What MLB players has the HOM elected who is strongly associate with a decade fits the bill here?
1890s (2): Dahlen, Childs
1880s (6): Stovey, Bennett, Glasscock, Richardson, Gore, Caruthers
1870s and earlier (8): White, Start, Pearce, Pike, Barnes, McVey, Sutton, Hines
Sorry if I forgot anyone.
It's not perfectly aligned with the guidelines suggested above, but adding just this group of players would make a good bit of difference in evening things out if we look by decade.
I don't know that by-decade is the best way to look at the question, however, due to the fact that the number of team seasons in various decades differs considerably 1858-1900, before settling in for a while at 16 per (not include NgLs for now, not sure what to do there). It may therefore be true that the number of HOFs from the early game through 1881 should be lower than the general average since there were likely fewer "seasons." Or not?
One other note is that Sunny's frequent lament that contemporary players (late 1970s-Tim Raines) are getting hosed is probably true. They played in times with 60%-88% more teams/team seasons but are still showing as less well represented than the Frisch era. Even the 1970s guys, who lead the modern players in representation, are pretty far behind the Frisch/Terry era. (Hint: Bert!!!!)
Anyway, back to my original question, how many guys? 15-25, I think, with a heavy emphasis on the early game.
Torre
Santo
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso
Vada Pinson
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
1. Dick Allen
2. Joe Gordon
3. Gil Hodges- Not enough as a player alone; subjective bump based on years as manager.
4. Jim Kaat- Difficult vote, in that the BBWAA hasn't elected the superior pitchers Blyleven and John yet.
5. Orestes Minoso
6. Ron Santo
7. Joe Torre
8. Mickey Vernon- War credit puts him over my in/out line.
1. Dick Allen
2. Joe Gordon
3. Gil Hodges
4. Jim Kaat
5. Orestes Minoso
6. Ron Santo
7. Joe Torre
8. Mickey Vernon
This truly is a set of cases in which we need the detail given by other offensive metrics, and in which the exact weight to be given to the best years, and the exact seriousness with which to consider poor years fit into the mix. All three players are essentially evaluated as peak/prime cases. The electorate has examined these three cases, and come up with 50 different opinions. (Well, maybe 15-20 different opinions.) All three are in our mid/upper backlog, but Wynn is the one most clearly positioned for election in the near future. For my sake, I found that the best offensive years of Bonds, while very good, weren't quite as great as I thought they might be, while Wynn's best years were better than I expected them to be.
Most of the HoM voters on this thread are basically taking care of the elected HoMers first before turning to those, like Bonds, who are still candidates. I also suspect that not being offered the chance to vote for Wynn inhibits the likelyhood of HoM voters going for Bonds.
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Dick Allen (knocked down, but still in)
Joe Torre (w\ managing credit)
2. Bonds
3. Boyer
4. Ferrell
5. Hodges
6. Minoso
7. O'Doul
8. Pinson
9. Santo
10. Torre
Well, I did a little larnin' on this. I added up all team seasons in each decade (UA counting as .65 of a team season; FL at .75, some NA teams getting only a percentage of a season). I also added NgL teams for 1920-1950 (I don't have a handy count for 1900-1919). The total was 2679 team seasons, and a 222 HOFs. Divide one by the other, 8%. But I decided to filter out the 1990s (which have no HOMers yet), and the figure became 9%. Using that as the benchmark, here's how things turn out:
DECADE TM SEASONS HOFS TO MAKE 9%------------------------------------------
1870s 79 3 4
1880s 151 12 2
1890s 120 15 -3
1900s 160 21 -5
1910s 180 14 3
1920s 274 37 -11
1930s 253 36 -12
1940s 276 15 11
1950s 160 18 -3
1960s 206 21 -2
1970s 248 17 6
1980s 260 15 9
(1990s 282 0 26)
(2000S 30 0 6)
===========================================
TOTAL 2679 222
The forties are really lean. In the 1800s, the 1870s are still underrepresented, but by a lot less than I previously figured. The 1880s are only slightly underrepresented. The 1910s are also underrepresented. The 1970s and 1980s remain underrepresented as well, though I expect that some players in the current backlog will boost that a bit (Gossage, maybe Rice, Dawson, or Blyleven?).
Anyway, in this model I'd probably revised my estimate to be 6-10 19th c. players, not including pioneers who I made no allowance for. They may well also be underrepresented.
Players listed in rank order
1. Ron Santo
2. Dick Allen
3. Joe Torre
All three of these are far beyond merely qualified for the HoF. I hold out some hope that the committee will do the right thing and elect Santo.
4. Joe Gordon
5. Wes Ferrell
6. Minnie Minoso
7. Ken Boyer
All four of these players are in the Hall of Merit and above my personal in-out line. They are clearly good enough for the Hall of Fame.
8. Bobby Bonds
9. Luis Tiant
Not HoMers yet, but above my in-out line for the HoM.
10. Don Newcombe
Just below my in-out line, but meets the Hall's standards fine.
If I had room, I would also vote for Jim Kaat, Carl Mays, and Thurman Munson.
Ron Santo
Dick Allen
Minnie Minoso
Joe Gordon
Joe Torre
Lefty O'Doul
Curt Flood
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Dick Allen
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
I'm not voting for Boyer, as I was not a big fan of his HOM candidacy. He certainly wouldn't be a terrible choice for the HOF though. He's better than George Kell.
You count, Scott. They count you, I mean. (I have been "here" since 1904 without voting except "here" in the present.)
Paul Wendt
Is Newk in or out?
Marc,
Newk is out --not on my ballot-- but I will read more about him here this weekend if I have time. It may be unreliable to write "add Jones" so I will post a whole revised ballot if there is a revision.
Let me find Newk's thread . . .
Ron Santo
Ron Santo
Don Newcombe
Joe Torre
Cecil Travis
Mickey Vernon
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
I don't believe I'll have time to return so I'll pull the sporting trigger now.
Ferrell
Gordon
Mays
Minoso
Santo
Torre
Newcombe
Dick Allen
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Jim Kaat
Minnie Minoso
Don Newcombe
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
Mickey Vernon
2. Gil Hodges (75% player 25% manager)
3. Jim Kaat (may or may not make my pHoM one day but better then many of Coops picks)
4. Carl Mays (may or may not make my pHoM one day but better then many of Coops picks)
5. Lefty O’Doul (player, manager, ambasoder, the <u>total</u> career)
6. Tony Oliva (pHoM)
7. Al Oliver (pHoM)
8. Ron Santo (pHoM)
9. Luis Tiant (may or may not make my pHoM one day but better then many of Coops picks)
10. Joe Torre (pHoM no brainer with mangirial career)
Santo
Hodges
Gordon
Flood
Munson
Lyle
Santo
Hodges
Gordon
Flood
Munson
Lyle
Torre
Allen
Bonds
Boyer
Ferrell
Gordon
Mays
Minoso
Santo
Tiant
Torre
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Minnie Minoso
Don Newcombe
Gordon
Minoso
Santo
Torre
Allen
Bonds
Boyer
Gordon
Minoso
O'Doul
Santo
Torre
Sorry to the rest - nice to see the names revisited and their careers combed over.
Boyer
Ferrell
Gordon
Mays
Munson
Minoso
Santo
Torre
Guess I am big hall guy.
Allen
Gordon
Minoso
Santo
Torre
Several others just missed...
Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Ken Boyer, Wes Ferrell, Joe Gordon, Minnie Minoso, Don Newcombe, Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre,
Dick Allen
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Thurman Munson
Don Newcombe
Ron Santo
Joe Torre
I'm very on the fence about Cecil Travis, Luis Tiant and Ken Boyer, but I'm going to pass on them this time around.
Sorry I haven't been around much of late, been very busy, and work schedule has changed. That has increased my sleep time (good) which has decreased my internet time (bad), and I'm still sorting it all out. Should be back in the flow soon.
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