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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Sunday, December 21, 20082009 BBTF Hall of Fame BallotIMPORTANT: Please read: This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers. The election will end next Sunday (8 PM EST). Results will be posted at the same time. Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate: 3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements: A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election. 4. Method of Election A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee. 5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. The eligible candidates are: Harold Baines, Jay Bell*, Bert Blyleven, David Cone*, Andre Dawson, Ron Gant*, Mark Grace*, Rickey Henderson*, Tommy John**, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Jesse Orosco*, Dave Parker, Dan Plesac*, Tim Raines, Jim Rice**, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Greg Vaughn*, Mo Vaughn* and Matt Williams*. + Write-ins are allowed, but won’t be included with the official tally. * 1st-year candidates. ** Last year of eligibility. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: December 21, 2008 at 01:18 PM | 133 comment(s)
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Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
1. Rickey
2. Raines
3. McGwire
4. Blyleven
5. Trammell
6. Mattingly
7. Murphy
8. Dawson
9. Rice
10. Parker
I would ALWAYS vote for 10 on this ballot because there are always at least 10 who are as good as approx. 2/3 of the existing HoF. IOW even Rice and Parker would be better than about 1/3 of the corner OF. The double standard that post-expansion players are held to is a blot on the HoF. As much as I like Joe Gordon, the idea that he would go in--representing a generation that is already grossly over-represented--and not a single post-expansion player has been voted in (by the Veterans Committee) in, what, 50 years? It is just freakin' outrageous is what it is.
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
Lee Smith
Bert Blyleven
Ricky Henderson
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Lee Smith
Smith is the only one I'm not sure on... glancing over his record compared to the other Hall relievers, he wouldn't be an unreasonable pick. I suppose it depends on whether you consider relievers separately from other pitchers.
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
I love this BTF tradition, thanks for running it.
Henderson
John
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Dawson
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
2. Tim Raines
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Andre Dawson
6. Dale Murphy
7. Lee Smith
8. Tommy John
Raines
McGwire
Blyleven
Trammell
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
There are several others whom I would vote for if they hadn't fallen to the 5% rule.
With that in mind,
1. Henderson
(gap)
2. Raines
(gap)
3. Blyleven
4. Trammell
and a write-in for Whitaker and Grich. Both would be in the grouping with Blyleven and Trammell.
Rickey Henderson
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
David Cone and Andre Dawson are close, but I'm not voting for them.
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Tommy John
Alan Trammell
David Cone
several others not on the list that I'd want, starting with Parisian Bob Caruthers, and only two of these -- Rickey and Blyleven --do I think it an outrage if they don't make it. Couldn't see a 10th I wanted.
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
and a write-in vote for Lou Whitaker.
2. David Cone*
3. Andre Dawson
4. Rickey Henderson*
5. Tommy John**
6. Mark McGwire
7. Jack Morris
8. Tim Raines
9. Alan Trammell
10. Dave Parker
I'm a big hall guy - I figure that gives us a better chance to clear out the backlog in the HOM :)
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
And a couple sad shakes of the head in honor of all of the 2B/SS/3B who deserve more recognition.
Really want to vote for Rice (favorite player as a kid), but it's just not there.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Rickey! Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Ricky Henderson
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Raines
Lee Smith
No change from prelim, no reason to change.
-- MWE
My pleasure!
They might have to wait longer than they should, but we eventually will get our share. You can bank on it. That doesn't mean that they will pick all of the right ones, of course.
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
- Brock
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
David Cone
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
:)
1. Blyleven
2. Henderson
3. McGwire
4. Raines
5. Trammell
Plus votes for:
6. Cone
7. Dawson
8. Mattingly
9. Murphy
In no scientific order:
1) Rickey Henderson
2) Tim Raines
3) Bert Blyleven
4) Alan Trammell
5) Mark McGwire
6) Dale Murphy
7) Jim Rice
8) David Cone
9) Andre Dawson
10) Lee Smith
I wasn't going to vote for Smith, but then revisited my rankings for the HOM project and noted that Smith was above where I ranked both Bruce Sutter (by a little) and Rollie Fingers (by a lot). If he is better than half of the relievers already in the Hall, then he should be in - if the Hall has relievers, then Lee Smith is in the top 6 of eligible relievers (I rank them - Wilhelm, Gossage, Quisenberry, L. Smith, Sutter, Fingers).
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Henderson
Raines
McGwire
----------- Voting line, below just miss----
Trammell
Cone
Dawson
John
----------- Not on the line, not that far off ----
Murphy
Mattingly
Parker
Rice
Baines
----------- Not particularly close ---------
Morris
Grace
Williams
Lee Smith
Orosco
Vaughn^2
----------- Not a chance in hell, in no order ----
Bell
Gant
My intention was to be biased toward underrepresented teams and underrepresented positions, but there wasn't really a chance to do that anyway. And in fact if I were to fill out the entire 10 names, it would be all the big-hitting positions with no 2B, SS, 3B or C. (unless voting for Jay Bell or Matt Williams seemed like an option)
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Parker
Raines
Smith, Lee
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Overlooked and overhyped at the same time, but fits in an "inclusive HoF."
Rickey Henderson
If we had tiers, he'd be in the Inner Circle.
Tommy John
Gotta elect him to ensure the efficacy of the "if x then y" argument for Jamie Moyer [insert "joke warning" here]...and besides, y'all should take pity on these guys in their last year of eligibility, given that the VC is, at least for the foreseeable future, the administrative equivalent of the Black Hole of Calcutta. That may be what y'all want to have happen to Jim Rice, but not to Tommy here.
More importantly, however: why isn't Frank Jobe in the HoF??
Mark McGwire
Innocent until proven guilty, even if he acts guilty.
Jesse Orosco
Purely sentimental silliness. If you haven't got one vote of this type on your ballot, you're taking it too seriously...
Tim Raines
Wouldn't it be great if Rickey and Rock were on the dias together this year? Kind of like Santo and Allen, only not quite so controversial...
Jim Rice
Purely tactical. Almost no one concurs with me, but Rice in the HoF has tipping point possibilities. It shows the inherent cultural negativism in the community that this tipping point is seen as inevitably electing worse players rather than creating an opportunity to champion better-but-overlooked players. A careful examination of the HoF voting pattern shows that such a fear is mostly unfounded.
Lee Smith
Mike E. is right on point here.
Alan Trammell
This is irrelevant to the balloting, but one wonders what Trammell's numbers might've looked like had he been moved off SS the way Robin Yount was. SS is the least forgiving position in terms of early/late offensive performance--there are, what, maybe three "late bloomers" at the position in baseball history (Wagner, Cronin, Joost--and Cronin is more of a recovery from a mid-career slump). Up to 29, Trammell is right there with Yount as a hitter (a little more OBP, a little less SLG).
Yount moves to the OF at 29, and wins an MVP award in '89 that's arguably less MVP-worthy than Trammell's performance in '87 (#2 in the balloting that year), and goes on to collect 3000+ hits (and thus becomes a first-ballot HoFer). Trammell misses playing time in his thirties for reasons directly attributable to remaining at SS.
Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
John
Trammel
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
McGwire
Cone
Murphy
Smith
Dawson
Parker
I'd vote for John too.
Blyleven
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
2. Blyleven
3. Raines
4. Smith
5. Trammell
6. Murphy
Write-in: Whitaker, Belle
1. Henderson
2. McGwire
3. Raines
4. Blyleven
5. Trammell
As long as you follow the rules above (which you have, BTW), anybody can vote here.
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Post 1, he's in. Post 2 lists 10 guys and he's not one. 3 in, 4 out, 5 in, 6 out. 7-11 out, except 9. Pretty much significantly more out than in the rest of the way, except Emeigh has only 3 guys (the smallest ballot in the thread) and has him. Of people I know as HOM voters, Murphy, TDA, Howie, Emeigh, and we'll throw in Malcolm are pro, sunnyday2, Dan R, OCF, Crosby, Webber, DCW3, and Howie are anti.
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
David Cone
Tommy John
Lee Smith
TDA, Emeigh, Malcolm, Crosby, and DCW3 are not HoM voters. But karlmagnus, bjhanke, rawagman, and Tiboreau are.
I'm curious as to your explanation there. Do you think Frankie Frisch isn't Hall of Fame worthy, for example?
And that's a Hall of Famer?
I could hammer the numbers but why bother? He fails the most basic test.
Nobody remembers the SOB.
You misspelled 'stupid'.
1.Rickey Henderson
2.Bert Blyleven
3.Tim Raines
4.Dale Murphy
5.Mark McGwire
6.Alan Trammell
7.Andre Dawson
8.Dave Parker
9.Don Mattingly
10.David Cone
Voting for Smith and not Trammell is by far the weirdest stance Mike has taken on this site.
It's akin to hyping Chuck Mangione while dismissing Herbie Nichols.
* Tim Raines
* Alan Trammell
* Mark McGwire
* Bert Blyleven
* Tommy John
2. Rickey Henderson
3. Tommy John
4. Tim Raines
5. Alan Trammell
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Tim Raines
4. Mark McGwire
5. Tommy John
6. Alan Trammel
7. Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
There is no doubt that Blyleven did win fewer games and lose more than you would expect given his run support and the quality of his pitching. I believe Mike essentially feels that this is disqualifying.
And that's got to be the weirdest analogy made here in a long, long time, Harvey. I mean, we get the idea that you think Chuck and Lee are hacks, but Trammell and Herbie Nichols? Trammell wasn't obscure and overlooked during his career, though it's true he was never seen as an "artist" on the level of Ozzie in terms of defense. Geez, maybe Phineas Newborn, Jr., y'know, someone who was at least well-known but not at the level of Monk or Powell (Bud, not Boog).
Let's not forget that Fingers and Gossage have ERA+ values below Smith. Sutter is only a bit higher. They have more IP/G, but in this age of the one-inning closer it's easy to forget that <u>more than 300</u> of Smith's appearances were greater than an inning in length.
What's funniest, though, is the info about Mangione and baseball that you'll find at Wikipedia (apologies in advance if the link is f'd up). Check it out. And Joe D. will be stoked to know which team is Chuck's favorite...
<a >Chuck Mangione at wikipedia</ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Mangione</a>
Good stuff Don! I remember that game like it was yesterday. I was 10 years old and at Grandma's for the 4th of July with all the cousins, aunts and uncles, etc.. Great memories!
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
That's what I understand as well. It's worth remembering that Walter Johnson was similarly crummy in this regard. It's a shame they let guys like him, who don't really know how to win, into the Hall of Fame.
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Tommy John
I was thrilled to get the opportunity to vote under HOF rules, where I feel at least marginally competent to discuss all of the eligible candidates.
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
I'm a small-hall guy.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Mark Grace
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
2. Blyleven
3. Raines
4. Dawson
5. Lee Smith
6. McGwire
7. Parker
8. Trammell
9. Murphy
10. Orosco
My new and amended ballot:
1. Henderson
2. Blyleven
3. Raines
4. Dawson
5. Lee Smith
6. McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
David Cone
Lee Smith
Tommy John
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Tommy John
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Write In's:
Darrell Evans
Rick Reuschel
Lou Whitaker
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Small-hall guy.
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Cone
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Henderson
Blyleven
Tim Raines
Trammell
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Shocking, I know...
Mike, I see your ballot is Blyleven-free. Below I've snipped an exchange we had in a recent Blyleven thread regarding blown leads (link below; it's not embedding properly). You never answered the question I posed, and so I'll pull an Andy and ask it again, since I'm genuinely curious as to your answer:
Mike:
Ray:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/the_baseball_analysts_lederer_another_addition_to_the_bert_blyleven_series/
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
I'm a small-hall guy.
----
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Small-hall guy.
--------
It seems to me (and I'm not arguing against your ballots, just using examples) that this is a byproduct of the saturation of Blyleven. Does a true small-hall voter choose Blyleven in a vacuum? I think he's a HOFer, I do *not* think he's a small-hall HOFer. I think this is where the "overrated while underrated" comes in. I'm not a small-hall guy, I think it's pretty much fine the way it is, if we could ditch the lowest 10% and either replace or just leave them out. Either way would be a-okay.
Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
McGwire
Trammell
Murphy
Dawson
Rice
L Smith
John
Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
I'd vote for Parker and Rice too if the ballot held 12.
Cone
Henderson
Mattingly
McGwire
Murphy
Parker
Raines
Trammell
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
I thought really hard about David Cone. He was a favorite of mine when he was with the Mets. I'm really surprised that he isn't closer to 3000 strikeouts. But he simply doesn't have the career value to complement a peak that was very good, but not exceptional among HOFers. If it were not for the 1994-5 strike, he possibly would have two additional 20 win seasons (although he'd still be short, IMHO). But ultimately I cannot reconcile that Kevin Brown is a fringe candidate, yet clearly superior to Cone in both peak and career value.
Matt Williams was another guy that I enjoyed watching, but I can't justify his inclusion. He's closer than a lot of people realize (given his stellar defense in the first half of his career), but he just didn't have the durability to amass enough career value.
Parker, Murphy, Smith, Rice... I'm bored talking about these guys. They all have decent cases, but all fall short IMHO.
David Cone*
Rickey Henderson*
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker*
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Last out: Andre Dawson
Dropped off list: Harold Baines
* - New To my list
Question: Could a player who was removed earlier for being on less than 5% of ballots, but is still otherwise eligible (not on the banned list, and retired for less than 20 years), get on the next ballot if 5% of the writers wrote their names in on this years ballot?
Cone
Dawson
Henderson
John
McGwire
Murphy
Parker
Raines
Trammell
I'm voting for a full ten because the Hall should reflect the increasing number of players in MLB, which it doesn't seem to be doing. If I could pull names off the ineligible list I'd add those first, dropping Cone, Dawson, John, Murphy and Parker.
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