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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, December 21, 20092010 BBTF Hall of Fame BallotIMPORTANT: Please read: This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers. The election will end Jan 4 (8 PM EDT). Results will be posted at the same time. Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread. Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate: 3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements: A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election. 4. Method of Election A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee. 5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. The eligible candidates are: Roberto Alomar*, Kevin Appier*, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Ellis Burks*, Andre Dawson, Andres Galarraga*, Pat Hentgen*, Mike Jackson*, Eric Karros*, Ray Lankford*, Barry Larkin*, Edgar Martinez*, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Fred McGriff*, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Shane Reynolds*, David Segui*, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Robin Ventura*, and Todd Zeile*. * 1st-year candidates John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: December 21, 2009 at 08:48 PM | 256 comment(s)
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Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Andre Dawson
4. Barry Larkin
5. Edgar Martinez
6. Mark McGwire
7. Tim Raines
8. Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Blyleven, Bert
Larkin, Barry
Martinez, Edgar
McGwire, Mark
Raines, Tim
Trammell, Alan
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Blyleven, Bert
Larkin, Barry
Martinez, Edgar
McGwire, Mark
Raines, Tim
Trammell, Alan
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy (heck, if writers can give a tip of the cap vote so can I)
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
+ 3 extras
Kevin Appier
Lee Smith
Robin Ventura
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
1. Barry Larkin
2. Tim Raines
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Mark McGwire
7. Andre Dawson
8. Edgar Martinez
9. Dale Murphy
10. Fred McGriff
I think you could reasonably draw the in/out line after any of #5, 6, 7, or 10. I'm going with drawing the line after McGriff: I think that best reflects the actual standards of the real Hall of Fame.
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Probably the intersection of all BBTF ballots, which works fine for me, since I'm a small hall guy. Larkin and Blyleven are close in my mind (it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Merit.)
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Dale Murphy
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
blyleven
larkin
mcgriff
mcgwire
raines
trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
And
Dawson
Martinez
McGriff
Murphy
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Fred McGriff
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
2. Tim Raines
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Edgar Martinez
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
1. Mark McGwire
2. Barry Larkin
3. Tim Raines
4. Bert Blyleven
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Alan Trammell
7. Edgar Martinez
8. Ray Lankford
I used Dan R's estimate of Edgar's fielding rank as a DH (-9 runs per 162 games). That just got him over the line.
I have Lankford here because he's a favorite of mine. He's close enough that if some miracle analysis of his center field defense came along, he might scrape in, so this is a sort-of "give him the 5% on the first one, just in case" deal. If those are outlawed here (they are common in the actual HoF voting), please strike my vote for him. He's at least as good as Lloyd Waner, and much more FEARED! But unless his glove somehow was the equal of Curt Flood's, and we all just missed it, he's not there.
I ended up with Kevin Appier in the middle of a group of Jimmy Key, David Cone, and Frank Viola. I have them so close that my decision was not whether Kevin belonged in the HoF, but rather whether the entire foursome belonged in. I decided no, so no vote for Kevin. This is also one big reason why I don't have David Cone on my HoM ballots. If there are a lot of guys in a group on a borderline, no one of them belongs in. They go in as a group or not at all. That's why Leever with Phillippe. You can't separate them.
As for the ordering, I perceive a gap between Larkin and Raines. I have a definition for a small hall / inner circle HoFer. If you took an average team, and added this guy, would they suddenly become pennant contenders? Only Mark and Barry really fit that. You all saw that in action with last year's Cards. Without Albert Pujols, they were an average team. Lousy offense, good pitching, averaging out overall. With Albert, they were contending for the division title, but not the frontrunners. Adding Holliday, they ran away with it. Albert is (at least) in a class with McGwire and Larkin.
1. Bert Blyleven
2. Barry Larkin
3. Alan Trammell
4. Tim Raines
(gap)
5. Mark McGwire
6. Roberto Alomar
7. Andre Dawson (he hasn't had much support thus far, so I just posted an argument for him on the discussion thread)
8. Edgar Martinez
(gap)
9. Fred McGriff
10. Lee Smith
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
• Bert Blyleven
• Andre Dawson
• Barry Larkin
• Fred McGriff
• Mark McGwire
• Dale Murphy
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Lee Smith
I took Murphy, McGriff, and Smith from a group of 5 maybes for the last 3 spots that also included Dave Parker and Andre Dawson. Murphy's peak was better than either Dawson or Parker, he was at least the equal defensively of Dawson as well - he was the easiest vote for me.
McGriff is uninspiring, but ultimately too much career to omit.
Lee Smith was the only one I struggled with... just too many memories of nail-biting from his Cubs days, but the inclusion of closers in the HOF is inevitable and strictly by the numbers, Lee Arthur probably ought to be in. Maybe he ends up being the George Sisler to Goose's Tris Speaker or Mariano's Ty Cobb - but he's still good enough.
[Edit: BTW, I think DLGM makes some excellent points in the HOF discussion regarding Dawson. I was thisclsoe to putting a strike through Lee Smith and adding in Dawson, but then -- I'm highly prone to coercion before I finish my first cup of coffee, so my ballot will stand for now. Next ballot, presuming neither Dawson nor Smith gain enshrinement and thus, appear again - I might well go the other direction.]
Blyleven
Larkin
Trammell
Raines
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Lee Smith
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Alan Trammell
4. Barry Larkin
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Edgar Martinez
7. Andre Dawson
8. Dale Murphy
9. Fred McGriff
10. Lee Smith
Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Appier and Murphy are borderliners, and McGwire, well... you know. The other five, I'm pretty convinced they belong.
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Andre Dawson
Edgar Martinez
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
blyleven
larkin
mcgriff
mcgwire
murphy
parker
raines
smith
trammell
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
Mattingly
McGwire
Morris
Murphy
Parker
Raines
Trammell
Oh, OK, delete Mattingly and Murphy.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Smith
Trammell
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
My 9 in alphabetical order:
-Roberto Alomar
-Bert Blyleven
-Andre Dawson
-Barry Larkin
-Edgar Martinez
-Mark McGwire
-Tim Raines
-Lee Smith
-Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar Velazquez
Rik Aalbert Blyleven - "The Dutch Master"
Andre Nolan Dawson - "Hawk"
Barry Louis Larkin
Mark David McGwire - "Big Mac"
Dale Bryan Murphy
David Gene Parker - "Cobra"
Timothy Raines - "Rock"
Alan Stuart Trammell
Rik Aalbert Blyleven - "The Dutch Master"
Andre Nolan Dawson - "Hawk"
Barry Louis Larkin
Mark David McGwire - "Big Mac"
Dale Bryan Murphy
David Gene Parker - "Cobra"
Timothy Raines - "Rock"
Alan Stuart Trammell
That reminds me of an old Yankees yearbook I once had that spelled out the full names of all the players, including "William Joseph Moose Skowron," as if the "Moose" had been right there on his birth certificate.
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Bert Blyleven
Robin Ventura
Kevin Appier
Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Robin Ventura
Bert Byleven
Barry Larkin
Edgsr Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jesse Orosco*
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
*Don't raise those eyebrows: I always vote for Jesse.
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Raines
??? - Wagner, Ripken, Larkin?
Not quite - but top 10 isn't a stretch.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
I can't pull the trigger on McGriff; maybe next year.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larkin, Raines 100%; Alomar 99%; Blyleven 97%; Trammell 94%;
McGwire 88%;
Martinez 71%,
McGriff 38%; Dawson 37%;
Murphy 23%; Smith 21%;
Appier 6%, Parker 5%; Ventura, Morris 3%; Lankford, Orosco 1%.
OK that was snarky. But this can barely be taken seriously. Blyleven is a slippery slope guy and McGriff is NOT? Check #86 next post. I agree Ventura brought rarer and therefore more valuable skills to the party than Crime Dog, though I wouldn't vote for either one. Slippery slope and all of that.
Bert Blyleven, 87.6
Barry Larkin. 68.8
Edgar Martinez, 67.2
Alan Trammell, 66.8
Tim Raines, 64.9
Roberto Alomar, 63.6
Mark McGwire, 63.1
Andre Dawson, 56.8
Robin Ventura, 55.1
Not on my ballot: McGriff, 50.5; Appier, 50.0; Burks, 47.9; Murphy, 44.4; Mattingly, 39.8; Morris, 39.3; Lankford, 38.4; Parker, 37.9; Baines, 37.0; Hentgen, 31.3; Smith, 29.8; Galarraga, 26.8; Jackson, 18.1; Reynolds, 15.6; Zeile, 14.8; Karros, 9.1; Segui, 7.8.
Considering this is one of those crossover projects that involves non-HOM guys, that message is something you'll probably want to add to next year's Hall of Fame Ballot, if not in the lengthy instructions, then definitely in the first post.
For the future, I agree.
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
I'm leaving off Dawson and Edgar, at least for now. Haven't looked yet at this thread but I suspect I may be a lone voice in the wilderness on McGriff.
From 1988 to 1994 (cherry picked as McGriff's peak), McGriff put up a 153 OPS+ in 1037. In comparison:
Will Clark: 146 OPS+ in 1009 G
Jeff Bagwell: 155 OPS+ in 570 G
Frank Thomas: 184 OPS+ in 644 G
Mark McGwire: 140 OPS+ in 821 G
It's pretty questionable, since it's placing McGriff's peak against others' off-peak years or partial peaks, but for that stretch, there's a decent case (but not exactly great case) to be made that McGriff was the best 1B in the league.
I don't disagree with you that Blyleven is not as obvious a HOFer as many make him out to be -- if he were, he'd be in. But that's one weird team your book had. Was it supposed to be active players? Living players? Schmidt was long retired, Carter was retired, Winfield on his last legs, Strawberry's best well behind him... I'd put no stock in that, unless the criteria are different than you stated.
and sorry for further defacing the ballot thread
But that's only if you cut it up that way. Thomas came up Aug 1990. He dominates McGriff. Clark had two dominant years, but they're 1988-89. So McGriff might have been the best for that whole five year period, but he's only the best for four months in it.
I don't either. I was responding to the claim that he "was the best first baseman in the game for portions of the 1990s". It's totally possible to be the best over a period aligning with your peak and not ever the best.
But you said "I don't think McGriff was ever viewed as the best first baseman in the league." From 1988-1994, he was, by many. I don't see how Thomas even figures into that, actually, since in 1989 nobody was considering Thomas as the best first baseman in the league.
The point is that McGriff has a very strong argument that he was, for a good stretch of years, if that's your criteria. (Whether he was "viewed as" such as opposed to actually being such I don't really find all that relevant.) To deny that McGriff was right there for several years in a row -- and we're allowed to cherry pick the stretch of years since your claim was that he was not ever viewed as the best 1B in the league -- seems to me to be irrational.
(Is this thread meant just for posting our votes, and not so much for discussion purposes?)
However, if we're going to get into actual back-and-forth discussion, it would probably be more productive to move it to this thread.
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