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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, December 06, 20102011 Results: First-Time Candidates Bagwell, Walker and Brown Are Now in the Hall of Merit!Slugging Astros first baseman Jeff Bagwell was considered the best of the Class of 2011 according to the electorate by securing 97% of all possible points in the latest Hall of Merit election. Standout hitter/outfielder Larry Walker was next in line with 73.3%, while fiery pitcher Kevin Brown fell in right behind Walker with an almost identical 73.2%. Rounding out the top-ten were: Rafael Palmeiro (strong first showing despite some protest non-votes), David Cone, Rick Reuschel, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Tiant, Cannonball Dick Redding (back in the top-ten!) and Hugh Duffy. Thanks to OCF and Ron Wargo for their help with this election’s tally! See all of you again here next year! RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Jeff Bagwell 909 38 35 3 2 n/e Larry Walker 686 36 10 12 2 2 4 1 3 1 1 3 n/e Kevin Brown 685 33 1 13 10 4 3 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 n/e Rafael Palmeiro 472 29 1 6 1 1 3 6 4 3 2 1 1 5 4 David Cone 332 26 1 7 2 2 2 1 2 3 3 1 2 6 10 Rick Reuschel 235 16 1 3 6 1 2 1 1 1 7 5 Phil Rizzuto 225 18 1 2 2 2 1 3 1 1 2 3 8 9 Luis Tiant 183 16 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 2 1 9 12 Cannonball Dick Redding 180 13 1 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 2 10 7 Hugh Duffy 172 14 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 3 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 6 Gavvy Cravath 161 16 1 1 1 3 1 2 3 1 3 12 14 Don Newcombe 157 12 2 2 1 2 1 3 1 13 8 Bucky Walters 137 10 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 14 17 Vic Willis 132 11 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 1 15 13 Fred McGriff 119 10 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 16 16 Kirby Puckett 118 9 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 17 19 Bobby Bonds 112 9 1 2 1 1 2 2 18 18 Bob Johnson 110 10 1 3 1 1 1 3 19T 41 Sal Bando 107 9 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 19T 23 Tommy Bridges 107 9 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 21 31 Ed Williamson 101 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 22 20 Burleigh Grimes 100 8 2 1 1 1 2 1 23 11 Tommy Leach 97 8 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 24 25 Bus Clarkson 86 7 2 2 2 1 25 21 Tony Perez 84 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 26 22 Dizzy Dean 83 6 2 1 1 1 1 27 33 Ben Taylor 79 8 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 28 27 Mickey Welch 76 6 2 2 2 29 24 Johnny Pesky 70 7 1 1 2 1 1 1 30 42 Buddy Bell 67 5 1 1 3 31 34 Bob Elliott 66 6 1 2 2 1 32 29 Albert Belle 62 6 2 1 1 1 1 33 38T Elston Howard 62 5 1 1 1 1 1 34 44 Pie Traynor 60 5 1 1 1 1 1 35 40 Tommy John 59 5 1 1 1 2 36 28 Bill Monroe 54 5 1 1 1 1 1 37 37 George Van Haltren 54 4 1 1 1 1 38 32 Bert Campaneris 53 4 1 2 1 39 n/e John Olerud 48 5 2 1 1 1 40 35 Norm Cash 47 5 1 1 1 1 1 41 51 Vern Stephens 47 4 1 1 1 1 42 36 Fred Dunlap 46 4 1 1 1 1 43 46T Addie Joss 46 3 1 1 1 44 15 Dave Concepción 45 5 1 1 1 1 1 45 77T Dwight Gooden 45 3 1 1 1 46T 45 Kevin Appier 44 4 1 1 1 1 46T 56 Carl Mays 44 4 1 1 2 48 48T Urban Shocker 42 4 2 1 1 49 65 Wally Schang 41 3 1 1 1 50 59 Frank Chance 39 4 2 1 1 51 52 Babe Adams 37 2 1 1 52 30 Dale Murphy 35 4 1 1 1 1 53 26 Ken Singleton 32 3 1 1 1 54 54T Don Mattingly 32 2 1 1 55T 53 Ed Cicotte 30 3 1 1 1 55T 66 Hilton Smith 30 3 1 1 1 55T 54T Al Rosen 30 3 1 1 1 58T 63 Dave Bancroft 29 3 1 1 1 58T 60T Ernie Lombardi 29 3 1 2 60 50 Lee Smith 29 2 1 1 61 46T Frank Tanana 28 2 1 1 62 80T Jim Rice 27 3 2 1 63 60T Sam Rice 27 2 1 1 64T 68T Luke Easter 25 2 1 1 64T 58 Chuck Klein 25 2 1 1 64T 62 Jack Quinn 25 2 1 1 67 70T Thurman Munson 22 2 1 1 68 48T Lou Brock 21 2 1 1 69 43 Larry Doyle 20 2 1 1 70T 57 Tony Mullane 19 2 1 1 70T 74T Bruce Sutter 19 2 1 1 72 n/e Mike Tiernan 17 1 1 73 n/e Johnny Evers 16 2 1 1 74T 93T Ron Cey 16 1 1 74T 82T Tony Oliva 16 1 1 76 67 Rabbit Maranville 15 2 1 1 77T n/e Jack Clark 14 2 2 77T 76 Sam Leever 14 2 1 1 79T 85 Hack Wilson 13 1 1 79T 86 Jim McCormick 13 1 1 79T n/e Gene Tenace 13 1 1 82 38T Rusty Staub 12 1 1 83T n/e Luis Aparicio 11 1 1 83T n/e Mike Griffin 11 1 1 85T 80T George J. Burns 10 1 1 85T 87 Lefty Gomez 10 1 1 85T 88T George Kell 10 1 1 85T 88T Deacon Phillipe 10 1 1 89T 70T Jim Kaat 9 1 1 89T 91T Bill Madlock 9 1 1 89T 79 Dave Parker 9 1 1 89T n/e Lance Parrish 9 1 1 89T 93T Will White 9 1 1 94T 88T Fielder Jones 8 1 1 94T 102 Tony Lazzeri 8 1 1 94T 93T Al Oliver 8 1 1 94T n/e Joe Tinker 8 1 1 98T 93T Elmer Smith 6 1 1 98T n/e Harvey Kuenn 6 1 1 98T n/e Bill Mazeroski 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Tommy Bond(84), Cesar Cedeno(77T), Orlando Cepeda(74T), Wilbur Cooper(99T), Jose Cruz(102), Frank Howard(99T), Chuck Finley(82T), Jack Fournier(93T), Orel Hershiser(70T), Charlie Hough(102), Leroy Matlock(64), Jack Morris(93T), Billy Nash(102), Nap Rucker(91T), Jimmy Ryan(70T), Dizzy Trout(68T), Robin Ventura(99T). Ballots Cast: 39
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: December 06, 2010 at 10:06 PM | 125 comment(s)
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Take a guess, Howie. ;-)
Hall of Merit, Not Hall of Fame: current 2011 ballot:
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Jeff Bagwell
Kevin Brown
Larry Walker
Look, Bagwell never led the league in putouts, and we're supposed to think he's some great defender?
Brad Harris: +11
Dan R: +10
Bleed the Freak: +10
DL from MN: +9
Mike Webber: +9
AJM: +9
...
OCF: +7
...
Alex King: +4 (one of our two new voters)
John Murphy: +4
...
Joe Dimino: +2 (yes, Joe is precisely the median voter)
...
Johnny S-L Fora: +1 (our other new voter)
...
dan b: -9
Adam Schafer: -10
Rusty Priske: -11
bjhanke: -18
sunnyday2: -22
yest: -43
About that -43: that is an all-time record for the lowest consensus score. That breaks the previous record for how far below the average consensus score by a margin of 10 (remember that this year's average was fairly high).
I know he's been with us for the duration of the project, but this is getting ridiculous. (And yes, posts number 2,3, and 6 in this thread, that's who I'm talking about.) Serious question: does yest's 2011 ballot actually pass the "Wid Conroy" test?
Note to John: Babe Adams and Hack Wilson didn't drop out.
Rangers: 73-69 (41 FWP)
Orioles: 12-7 (13 FWP)
Marlins: 38-14 (50 FWP)
Padres: 20-9 (24 FWP)
Dodgers: 63-34 (70FWP)
Yankees: 10-12 (3 FWP)
On balance: you can argue it in any of three ways, and the WS and shoulda-been CY he won with Florida is a consideration - but I'd lean towards calling him a Dodger.
Walker pretty clearly gets a Rockies cap - is that a first for that team?
Probably from somewhere in CT.
SP's
Bert Blyleven
Bob Caruthers
Wes Ferrell
Billy Pierce
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb
C's
Charlie Bennett
Bill Freehan
Cal McVey
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Quincy Trouppe
Deacon White
1B's
Will Clark
Keith Hernandez
Mark McGwire
Joe Start
2B's
Roberto Alomar
Ross Barnes
Cupid Childs
Bobby Grich
Willie Randolph
Hardy Richardson
Lou Whitaker
3B's
Dick Allen
John Beckwith
Ken Boyer
Darrell Evans
Heinie Groh
Stan Hack
Graig Nettles
Ron Santo
Ezra Sutton
SS's:
Bill Dahlen
Jack Glasscock
Home Run Johnson
Dick Lundy
Dobie Moore
Dickey Pearce
Alan Trammell
LF's
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
Sherry Magee
Minnie Minoso
Tim Raines
Jimmy Sheckard
Harry Stovey
CF's
Pete Browning
George Gore
Paul Hines
Alejandro Oms
Lip Pike
Jimmy Wynn
RF's
Dwight Evans
Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Reggie Smith
DH's
Edgar Martinez
I apologize for anyone who I may have omitted.
Because there is no reason to boycott him?
As expected, Rafael Palmeiro and David Cone both look pretty good for induction in 2012. But that third spot is going to be a battle royale. I'd say that everyone down to Gavvy Cravath at #11 has a legitimate shot based on number of points and ballots.
So let me make my plea now: to all of the voters who have Dick Redding just off their ballot, in 16, 17 or 18 (or even 19 or 20), it's time to fire that shot and place Cannonball in your top 15.
That's especially clear on the right side of the infield as all first and second basemen fall into one of those two categories (Start, Barnes, Childs, Richardson; Clark, Hernandez, McGwire, Alomar, Grich, Randolph, Whitaker). Now, many of the players from the latter category are still working their way through the writers' ballot (Alomar will most likely be elected in January). It also shows up in the outfield where Oms is the only center fielder who doesn't fit that description.
ps. You're missing Barry Larkin at SS.
Brown was a pain in the butt to figure out. He clearly wasn't a great pitcher as a Ranger, but you can't ignore the huge differential in innings pitched (that's before you prorate his strike numbers in '94, too) compared to LA. It's very close (I have the difference in overall value in the vicinity of 7%), but I lean toward a Rangers cap.
Walker is clearly a Rockie. He had his best years in Colorado and played there longer than in Montreal.
And I urge all Dick Redding voters to take a second look at Don Newcombe, who may be within striking distance of election next year. Newk may not be a sexy "discovery" for the HoM, but you'll find that if you give him credit for the barriers he faced, he's just as strong a candidate as Redding.
Florida would be #2 for me.
Pennants added by team:
Team PA IPTEX - .257 1278.7
BAL - .086 172.3
FLA - .277 470.3
SDP - .135 257.0
LAD - .401 872.7
NYY - .034 205.3
He pitched more for Texas, but he was a lot more valuable as a Dodger.
I'll take care of it, OCF. Thanks.
It's close enough that I won't argue the point, Joe. A Dodger cap it is.
A Florida cap over a Ranger one, OTOH, I would, however.
That's questionable. Of course, I'm not a Pennants Added type of guy anyway.
Only if karlmagnus was in charge of picking caps. :-D
I must be slipping; not on the lowest consensus score list. Still, as I've pointed out before, mathematically low consensus score ballots add more information to the pool than high ones!
See you guys next year!
But Mattingly number 1? Seriously? (If you were the one who put Mattingly first)
Wait, wait--I thought we were trying to get away from the yearly disappearing act? Aren't we moving forward with the MMP project, the website, etc? (Not that Karl has to participate in those, of course, don't mean to pick on him--but I hate to see us all waving and getting into our Winnebagoes and driving home when we've been talking about the need to remain engaged recently!)
I know the website situation is still dependent on Joe's schedule, and possibly Tango's and Shock's (any update, or projected timeline on that stuff, Joe? And can any of us help in any way, since we know you're swamped?). But can someone with keys perhaps put up a MMP discussion thread, so we can start setting up a schedule and rules and such, and maybe get started on that?
What the heck happened to Concepcion? I thought he was finally building some momentum.
On the Brown's cap issue: it looks to me that Joe's Pennants Added post says almost exactly the same thing as my RA+ equivalent FWP post, which is to say LA clearly ahead and Florida slightly ahead of Texas, followed by SD, Bal, and NYY in that order.
How about we give Brown a $ as his symbol? With a Dr. Jobe office appointment card taped under the bill.
Obviously, I disagree strongly with Sean's methodology for determining historical positional values and with the conclusions drawn from it. He would surely say the same of mine.
I'll second that. I'm a supporter of both. I had Redding 4th and Newcombe 8th on this year's ballot.
Though I would disagree with one thing. I think Newk is a great "discovery" for the Hall of Merit, demonstrating this body's fuller understanding of baseball's integration era.
I agree. I would love to see Brown pick up the first cap for the Marlins but his Dodger work was even better. The Rangers, despite the bulk innings, are well behind the other two.
And Bernie Williams is a first timer next year, I think.
It flipped to Bando, who jumped to 19th from 41st.
Brad Harris (last previous vote in 1935)
Mike Webber (one year skip)
Alex King (new voter)
'zop (one year skip)
Johnny S-L Fora (new voter)
Ken Fischer (one year skip)
Voted in 2010 but not 2011:
Brent
Chris Cobb
KJOK
mulder & scully
mystikx20 (one-timer)
Sean Gilman
Tiboreau
Yardape
Voted in 2008 or 2009 but not 2011:
Max Parkinson
Tom H
Andrew M
Andrew Siegel
DanG
David Foss
Don F (Pedro Feliz Navidad)
Eric Chalek
EricC
favre
Jim Sp
rico vanian
Tom D
Those last two lists carry a great deal of HoM history and expertise. Of course, any one of them could have flipped the order of Walker and Brown (a falling leaf could have flipped the order of Walker and Brown), but it seems unlikely that all of them put together could have or would have changed the overall results.
Rafael Palmeiro
David Cone
Rick Reuschel
Phil Rizzuto
Luis Tiant
Cannonball Dick Redding
Hugh Duffy
Gavvy Cravath
Don Newcombe
Bucky Walters
Vic Willis
Fred McGriff
Kirby Puckett
Bobby Bonds
Bob Johnson
I'd also add Bernie Williams to the list as he's the only potentially viable candidate from next year's class. The 2012 election will come down to those players. The players don't have to be in your top 15 but they must have an ordinal ranking in order for an instant runoff to be successful. None of the candidates are a lock to get 50% of the possible points.
electees are not in caps
top 4 locked in place for all eternity, it seems
Redding may be only 3 years away from overtaking Welch for most pitching pts
Cravath celebrates rise into all-time top 20
Walters annexes 22nd, Grimes claims 29th, Williamson 48th, all others unchanged
Willis could catch Keller for 50th in 2 years, barely
TOP 50, ALL-TIME, unofficial
DUFFY...... 27398.5
VAN HALTREN 26905.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
WELCH...... 18613
Childs..... 18484
REDDING.... 18130
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976
CJones..... 15875
TLEACH..... 15660
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12663.5X
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
CRAVATH.....12064
Roush...... 12005
WALTERS.....11633
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
DOYLE....... 9794
GRIMES.......9613
HStovey......9576
BJOHNSON.....9529
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
McGraw.......8145
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BMONROE......7861
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6837
WILLIAMSON...6680
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
Others in active top 50
Willis 6151, Dean 5814, Elliott 5113, Bridges 4900, Joss 4760, Rizzuto 4566, BTaylor 4504, TPerez 4217, FChance 3755, CMays 3713, NCash 3671, Tiant 3660, Traynor 3616, Cepeda 3449X, SRice 3277, Cicotte 3239, McCormick 3219, Brock 3114, EHoward 2843, Tiernan 2692X, Singleton 2690, FJones 2636, BoBonds 2634, Klein 2586, VStephens 2523, BClarkson 2421, Veach 2389X, GJBurns 2388, Staub 2383, Mullane 2328, Dunlap 2259, Lombardi 2215, Bancroft 2047, Poles 1842X
don't have tallies for guys who might sneak in near the bottom like Cone, Newcombe, Concepcion, Puckett
My early predictions for my PHoM for 2012 are Larry Walker, Bernie Williams and... Buddy Bell? That can't be right. Time to look at it again. :)
On this year's discussion thread someone said I was in love with first basemen or something. It looks to me like my #1-3 may be Rafael Palmeiro, Fred McGriff and Tony Perez. :)
I see Bernie Williams around 7 or 8.
It was me that said you love first baseman. I'm not wrong. I would encourage you to reconsider your apparent lack of interest in pitchers.
Give him 2709 pts - too bad the "edit" function has expired...
If that happens, Walker will be the first ever two time inductee.
SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
Hilton Smith
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
RP’s
Bruce Sutter
C’s
Rick Ferrell
Ernie Lombardi
Ray Schalk
1B’s
Jim Bottomley
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Chance
George Kelly
Tony Perez
Ben Taylor
2B’s
Johnny Evers
Tony Lazzeri
Bill Mazeroski
Red Schoendienst
3B’s
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
George Kell
Fred Lindstrom
Pie Traynor
SS’s
Luis Aparicio
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Rabbit Maranville
Phil Rizzuto
Joe Tinker
LF’s
Lou Brock
Chick Hafey
Heinie Manush
Jim Rice
CF’s
Earle Combs
Hugh Duffy
Kirby Puckett
Lloyd Waner
Hack Wilson
RF’s
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Chuck Klein
Tommy McCarthy
Sam Rice
Ross Youngs
4 n/e Rafael Palmeiro 472 29
27 33 Ben Taylor 79 8
These players aren't that different but somehow there are 23 places, 21 ballots and 400 points separating them.
Joe, I think those reasons are better addressed in #31.
Lassus/7 what is it that you keep trying to get at?
In a sadly increasingly petulant manner (see username), I'm simply trying to highlight that the lack of a dedicated HOM website strikes me (admittedly, an outsider) as an issue that isn't getting enough priority. I think the fact that there wasn't any response at all to Mark Donelson's post shows this.
Thanks.
No, yes, and yes. The people on O's list in #41 are unlikely to see an invitation to please vote posted here, I think. A year from now, 39 votes are going to be harder yet to come by, at least 39 knowledgeable votes/voters.
Well, at one time there was this. Although I notice that the date of their latest "weekly poll" was August 14, 2009......
*Dammit, Lassus, with a stick like that Schon I sold you, you should at least be able to hustle the rent money every month. And anyway, every pool player knows that work is overrated.
I thought John did step forward to start MMP in January. He already has the keys. I think bimonthly (every 2 months) is about as aggressive of a schedule as we could manage.
We probably need to formally amend the constitution to implement instant runoff. I think we could use some debate on the threshold (<1/2 ballots, <1/2 total possible points, etc). I like requiring ranking of the previous year's top 15 returnees plus any new players above 40 WAR.
I think the point of everyone who is pushing the website is that everything you've mentioned here is #26-#30 and the website is numbers #1 - #25. I mean, again, if the members don't see it that way, they don't. But as someone who is a fan, follower, and supporter, I strongly disagree.
(As a caveat, I'll stick the MMP at #15, as that is a great idea.)
Maybe I should start learning web development for the sole purpose of making the HOM website.
Except for the fact that there were only 15 ballots posted at the actual first-announced deadline, I'm not entirely sure this is the case. The question is whether an e-mailed appeal to voters past and present should be standard practice when the ballot discussion thread goes up and when the ballot thread goes up.
When you look at the 'annual election' ballots, there's actually a fairly stable base in terms of numbers:
2011 39
2010 41
2009 40
There's just not enough data to draw any hard conclusions from that. Perhaps an examination of how many ballots were posted before any extension would do better at spotting any difficulty in recruiting voters.
Basically, about one-fifth of the voters fell away when the elections went annual. I'm not convinced a web site is the highest priority in getting them back. It might actually be an e-mail list that would do the trick. A web site might help with recruitment of new voters, though, especially if in conjunction with the Most Meritorious Player project.
Having final projects for two grad school classes due at the same time as the Hall of Merit ballot is what kept me away this year. I hope to be back next year, or as soon as I can.
I am the one who set up the current HallOfMerit.com. I am fully able and willing to push that along in whatever direction is needed. For over a year I have attempted to garner some feedback as to what kind of things, features, etc. the members are looking for and what sorts of things they would like to see on the website.
As Lassus has pointed out, the interest seems to be frustratingly low, which is why I haven't touched the site in several months. I am a developer, but I am more the builder than the designer. Of someone wants to sketch out some quick blueprints on the back of a napkin for me I would be more than happy to start working on some things again.
I am a big fan of the HoM, but I have never been a participant, and I don't really know what the active participants are looking for. Without a sense of direction, it is hard to progress. For example, I could easily set up a little registration system for voters, that allows them to login and conduct their votes through the website, and have it automatically tally the results. Hell, I could have it spit out a neat little AJAXy ballot with all eligible players that you can re-arrange into your preferred order with a drag-n-drop. But I'm not going to expend the time and energy to develop something no-one wants. And that's been the problem.
My email is available through the BBTF system, and Joe Dimino has it as well. I am a professional developer, and willing to work for free. Just tell me what you want, and you've got it.
I want the advanced stats available (MLE's etc) for those players that needed them calculated.
I want the election results searchable year-by-year. I want to be able to search on any player and see when he received a vote.
This is already in place.
Donnie Baseball, for example.
I also started on a "plaque" sort of thing although it doesn't contain any multimedia (that would be tricky, with copyrights etc.) Here's a link to the Reggie Smith example.
I find all of your sentiments perfectly sensible and pragmatic, and I greatly appreciate your willingness to serve. It could be that our next focus could best be spent on figuring out what the group wants and then letting you know about it.
I would be happy to be on a committee working out those details.
Thank you, Shock.
One thing that jumps out at me from a quick look at the website is that the election results by player are missing points--it's much easier to visualize a player's support with points than by simply looking at the chart (the "off ballot" column is very helpful, when available, though it might be better as % of ballots the player appears on). While I'm on this topic, graphs of yearly support would be awesome, if they aren't too hard to make.
Can you complete all the plaques this year? Can you post the most recent election results prominently?
Another thing we should do is replace the yahoo group with a repository on the HoM webpage. Voters should have logins at the HoM.
Me too. But most important, let's form one! Can we get the go-ahead from Joe to do that (and find out if he wants to be on it or not, of course)? That will help immensely in getting this moving.
Thank you, Shock.
Yes, a thousand times!
Can you beef up the links with articles that have been written about the Hall of Merit (Posnaski, blogs, etc)?
I imagine we would need to give Shock an actual list of the ones we want. Does anyone have one handy, or is it Google time?
EDIT: I heartily agree with this as well: really think taking the bus off this site would be smart if we can move over all discussion threads as well, and present them in an easier to use format - currently way too much scrolling and slow loading.
Http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/12/29/hall.of.merit/index.html
This is something I could use some help with. If anyone is willing to put in some data-entry time let me know.
What is the yahoo group? I can work on a Voters login soon.
Are there any other current HOF'ers who are not either in the HOM or who didn't get a top 15 vote this year - more the guys who played post the 1930's than the obvious ones who shouldn't be there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21score.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/sports/baseball/02score.html?pagewanted=print
Thanks for penning those articles Dan.
Anymore articles forthcoming?
Will your pitcher and batter WAR be updated soon, or in time for the 2012 election cycle?
Hall of Famers not Hall of Merit, not receiving a vote for the Hall of Merit 2011 election:
SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
C’s
Rick Ferrell
Ray Schalk
1B’s
Jim Bottomley
Orlando Cepeda
George Kelly
2B’s
Red Schoendienst
3B’s
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
Fred Lindstrom
SS’s
Travis Jackson
LF’s
Chick Hafey
Heinie Manush
CF’s
Earle Combs
Lloyd Waner
RF’s
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Tommy McCarthy
Ross Youngs
Hall of Fame, Not Hall of Merit:
Highest Points Totals in 2011 Election
Phil Rizzuto
Hugh Duffy
Vic Willis
Kirby Puckett
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Perez
Dizzy Dean
Ben Taylor
Mickey Welch
Pie Traynor
Addie Joss
Frank Chance
Hilton Smith
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Lombardi
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Chuck Klein
Lou Brock
Bruce Sutter
Johnny Evers
Rabbit Maranville
Receiving One Vote Hall of Famers:
Hack Wilson (yest)
Luis Aparicio (Chris Fluit)
Lefty Gomez (rawagman)
George Kell (yest)
Tony Lazzeri (ronw)
Joe Tinker (Mike Webber)
Bill Mazeroski (Fra Paolo)
BBWAA Electees not Inducted into Hall of Merit:
Kirby Puckett - 1st ballot
Tony Perez
Dizzy Dean
Pie Traynor
Jim Rice
Lou Brock - 1st ballot
Bruce Sutter
Rabbit Maranville
Luis Aparicio
Zero votes:
Catfish Hunter
Herb Pennock
I would take Kiki Cuyler as the best Hall of Famer not to receive a vote in the 2011 election.
Hopefully the data set is correct, and I apologize for any issues.
I'm glad Willie Wells wasn't that third name.
There are few discrepancies on your list compared to mine.
Elliott 5118
Traynor 3716
Cash 3692
Brock 3120
E. Howard 2839
Bonds 2728
Veach 2388
Puckett 2386
Concepcion 2032
...
Newcombe 1585
Reushel 1426
...
Cone 1245
As always it was tough....I looked at many people very hard....I am sure I will be blistered for my votes but feel free to correspond at tr.sullivan@mlb.com. FYI...I have covered the Rangers for 22 years.
Roberto Alomar - Quite deserving
Jeff Bagwell - Just thought he was more dominant than McGriff or Olerud.
Bert Blyleven - You guys swayed me on this one
Barry Larkin - Hard choice in picking him over Trammell
Mark McGwire - As always, I decline to sit in judgement on the steroids issue
Jack Morris - I go back and forth on him. This year...yes
Rafael Palmeiro - Same as McGwire
Tim Raines - Very close. As a GM, I would rather have Parker or Murphy but he was a great leadoff hitter.
I also voted for Juan Gonzalez and Kevin Brown...personal reasons. Sorry, I can do that
What about...
Edgar Martinez - Saw him in person for many years against the Rangers. Great great hitter. As a DH, I wish his career offensive numbers were a little better.
Larry Walker - Looked at him hard. Very hard. Just didn't pull the trigger. Looked at some road numbers that held me back for now.
TR.Sullivan@mlb.com
Then why aren't you voting for Parker or Murphy? (I'm pretty sure they're both still on the ballot, right?)
Because he already voted for 10 players. All in all, this is not a bad ballot (to me only 2 questionable choices, one of which was obviously a hometown connection). I think the best thing about it is that it includes 10 votes. With more and more candidates entering the ballot in upcoming years, the number of votes per ballot will need to increase to prevent a logjam that keeps players from getting elected.
thank you for allowing us the chance to quarrel and dicker, TR.
That reasonable, late 70s Dave Parker really was a serious impact player for few years before he had... issues.
I'm not sure Murphy had higher peak than Raines, but it was a little longer, it was that abrupt cliff dive that did Murphy in
Donnie Baseball, for example.
How about adding the total points and where they finished on the ballot?
FIXED
all-time 'votes points' thru 2011 - those still eligible in 2012 election are in CAPS
electees are not in caps
top 4 locked in place for all eternity, it seems
Redding may be only 3 years away from overtaking Welch for most pitching pts
Cravath celebrates rise into all-time top 20
Walters annexes 22nd, Grimes claims 29th, Williamson 48th, all others unchanged
Willis could catch Keller for 50th in 2 years, barely
TOP 50, ALL-TIME, unofficial
DUFFY...... 27398.5
VAN HALTREN 26905.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
WELCH...... 18613
Childs..... 18484
REDDING.... 18130
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976
CJones..... 15875
TLEACH..... 15660
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12663.5X
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
CRAVATH.....12064
Roush...... 12005
WALTERS.....11633
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
DOYLE....... 9794
GRIMES.......9613
HStovey......9576
BJOHNSON.....9529
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
McGraw.......8145
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BMONROE......7861
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6837
WILLIAMSON...6680
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
Others in active top 50 (36)
Willis 6151, Dean 5814, Elliott 5118, Bridges 4900, Joss 4760, Rizzuto 4566, BTaylor 4504, TPerez 4217, FChance 3755, Traynor 3716, CMays 3713, NCash 3692, Tiant 3660, Cepeda 3449X, SRice 3277, Cicotte 3239, McCormick 3219, Brock 3120, EHoward 2839, BoBonds 2728, Tiernan 2709, Singleton 2690, FJones 2636, Klein 2586, VStephens 2523, BClarkson 2421, Veach 2388X, GJBurns 2388, Puckett 2386, Staub 2383, Mullane 2328, Dunlap 2259, Lombardi 2215, Bancroft 2047, Concepcion 2032, Poles 1842X
(Newcombe 1585, Reuschel 1426, Cone 1245)
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