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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, January 02, 20122012 BBTF Hall of Fame BallotIMPORTANT: Please read: This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers. The election will end next Sunday on Jan 8 (8 PM EST). Results will be posted at the same time. Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread. Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate: 3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements: A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election. 4. Method of Election A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee. 5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. The eligible candidates are: Jeff Bagwell, Jeromy Burnitz*, Vinny Castilla*, Juan Gonzalez, Brian Jordan*, Barry Larkin, Javy Lopez*, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Fred McGriff, Jack Morris, Bill Mueller*, Terry Mullholland*, Dale Murphy, Phil Nevin*, Rafael Palmeiro, Brad Radke*, Tim Raines, Tim Salmon*, Ruben Sierra*, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker, Bernie Williams*, Tony Womack* and Eric Young*. * 1st-year candidates ** Last year of eligibility John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: January 02, 2012 at 05:42 PM | 202 comment(s)
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Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Gonzalez
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Palmiero
Raines
Smith
Trammell
Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams
Edgar Martinez
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
McGwire
Palmeiro
1)Barry Larkin
2)Jeff Bagwell
3)Tim Raines
4)Mark McGwire
5)Alan Trammell
6)Larry Walker
7)Edgar Martinez
8)Rafael Palmeiro
9)Fred McGriff
10)Dale Murphy
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
McGwire
Palmeiro
Martinez
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
The last one isn't, since his figures are bloated by Coors. But it's still hard to argue with those adjusted numbers, and so I'd add him to the group:
Larry Walker
Martínez
Larkin
Trammell
Murphy
Raines
Walker
Williams
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Considered voting for Lee Smith (meets HoF reliever standards but they're too low) and Palmeiro (Meets HoM standards but is borderline so I'll hold his juicing against him) but decided against it.
Larkin
Trammell
Raines
Mcgriff
Smith
martinez
Walker
McGwire
Palmerio
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Would vote for Williams too, but ran out of spots.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Larkin
Raines
McGwire
Trammell
Walker
Martinez
Palmeiro
McGriff
Williams
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
McGriff
Palmeiro
Raines
Smith
Trammell
Walker
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Rafael Palmeiro
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
I go back and forth on Edgar, but his prime is too much to ignore. I can't bring myself to vote for Walker. I know the value's there, but I really think there's something to be said for durability.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Big Hall Time
Walker from 1990 (when he first became a regular) till 2005 - 123 games per season.
Edgar from 1990 (when he first became a regular) till 2004 - 131 games per season.
Surely Walker's excellent defense and good baserunning compared to Edgar's negligible and poor is enough to overcome a mere 8 game deficit in games played.
2. Barry Larkin
3. Edgar Martinez
4. Mark McGwire
5. Fred McGriff
6. Rafael Palmeiro
7. Tim Raines
8. Alan Trammell
9. Larry Walker
10. Bernie Williams
Barry Larkin
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bernie Williams
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bagwell
Raines
Trammell
Raines
Martinez
Larkin
Walker
McGwire
Trammell
Murphy
Williams
Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Bagwell comes up short for me. I can't totally ignore the possibility that he used PEDs and that they helped keep him on the field 2-3 years longer than he would otherwise have lasted, and when I look at what I think would have been the most likely end result of a shorter career I come up with something very much like Albert Belle.
Smith I've touched on before. He was caught in the transition between the Gossage era of closers and the Eckersley era of closers, so we tend to think of him more as we think of a modern-era closer where in reality he was more like Gossage for much of his career.
Bernie Williams is the only newcomer worth taking seriously, and he wasn't quite good enough for long enough.
-- MWE
Larkin
Trammell
McGwire
Raines
Walker
Martinez
Murphy
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
I'm one of those who thinks it is virtually impossible to determine what impact PEDs had on the game in the 1990s and 2000s, and anybody who thinks they can say for sure is either lying or delusional. We don't know who did it, we don't know what advantages it really gave to players, and we can't really say what residual benefits it gave even those players who did not use PEDs (Johnny Damon, for example, scored many more runs in Boston because Ortiz and Manny were so incredible. If they were using PEDs during that time, though, should we give Damon credit for as many runs scored, as many plate appearances, etc.? For that matter, how do we know who else in that lineup was or wasn't using PEDs? Damon? Millar?) So, my ballot reflects that this was simply part of the game for some period of time, like 296-foot right field fences, mile-high elevation ballparks, greenies, legal spitballs, non-integrated-era baseball, expansion pitching staffs, World War II-era baseball, unusually high pitching mounds in the 1960s, etc.
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Bernie Williams
Larkin
Raines
Bagwell
Larkin
McGwire
McGriff
Palmeiro
Raines
Trammell
Walker
(I struggled over Walker, Williams, and Edgar. First time I'm supporting Walker. Edgar inched closer in my eyes but still falls just short. I can be convinced otherwise.)
EDIT: Sorry, I left the intro in by accident, and it's not letting me delete it.
Bagwell
Trammell
Raines
Walker
McGwire
Palmeiro
Martinez
Murphy
Williams
I'm 100% solid on 1-5. Setting aside steroids (as I'm wont to do), I'm 100% solid on 6-7. I could go either way on #8, #9 is kind of a personal favorite who's close enough to the borderline. Given HOF voting rules, I'm tossing Bernie Williams a vote because I think he deserves to hang around on the ballot for further consideration.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
I'm a large Hall guy, obviously.
Comments:
If write-ins were permitted, I would write in Kevin Brown and Lou Whitaker.
Like it or not, DH is a position (Heck, Palmeiro got a Gold Glove for playing it!). Relief pitcher is not a position; it's a role, like pinch hitter.
I ignore steroids, since I don't think they should be illegal in or outside of baseball.
Jeffrey Robert Bagwell
Barry Louis Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Frederick Stanley McGriff - "The Crime Dog"
Mark David McGwire - "Big Mac"
Dale Bryan Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro Corrales
Timothy Raines - "Rock"
Alan Stuart Trammell
Larry Kenneth Robert Walker
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Bernie Williams
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Palmeiro
Raines
Trammell
Walker
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Larry Walker
Dale Murphy
Edgar Martinez
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
You should have your ballot taken away then. The intro specifically asked to cut crap like that out.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
The intro says "examples of whom I am referring to are ... players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume." Bernie Williams has a "creditable HOF resume" that, if I was forced to decide right now, I would say fell just short. Under HOF voting rules, the only way I can reconsider that decision next year is if he gets 5% of the vote. Under perpetual eligibility guidelines like the HOM has, I'd be much more comfortable leaving him off the ballot entirely.
2. Mark McGwire
3. Barry Larkin
4. Tim Raines
5. Rafael Palmeiro
6. Alan Trammell
7. Fred McGriff
8. Larry Walker
9. Edgar Martinez
Hate to not recognize any pitchers, but when Lee Smith and Jack Morris are your best options...
Juan Gonzalez,
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Well, I don't think Fancy Pants needed to be so antagonistic, but upon reading your ballot and explanation I too concluded that you weren't voting in accordance with John's guidelines as laid out at the start of the thread.
I took John to mean that we should only place a player on our ballot if we felt, right now, at this moment, that he "really is a HOFer," as John said:
I also don't think it's valid under any circumstances -- this BBTF vote or the real BBWAA vote -- to vote for a player you are not sold on solely in an effort to ensure that he gets the minimum 5% so that you can consider him again next year. And you've admitted you think Williams falls short at this moment.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Also, the excuse of "I want to be able to consider him in the future" doesn't even work, because your vote here will have exactly zero influence on whether he is eligible in the future.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Discussion:
Walker. I believe that the NL was the weaker league during his career, and therefore
that his sabermetric stats can't be taken at full face value. Pending a more
accurate estimate for league correction factors, he falls just off the ballot.
B. Williams. AL strength doesn't hurt his case. Loses in the collective memory because
he is a CF who gets lumped in with corner OF.
Brown and Whitaker. In the past, I felt that write-ins were a waste, but why should
worthy players be punished just because the BBWAA made mistakes?
Jeff Bagwell
Kevin Brown (write-in)
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Lou Whitaker (write-in)
Bernie Williams
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Dale Murphy
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams - hopefully he clears the 5% line...a borderline case that I would like to re-examine in the future
Kevin Brown - write-in
Newcomers:
Javy Lopez - intriguing Hall of Very Good catcher
Tim Salmon - overlooked, close to consideration set
Ruben Sierra - had hall of fame potential, offseason weight lifting seemed to kill his flexibility and hall chances
Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, and Phil Nevin - thanks for signing autographs!
Others:
Lee Smith - in/out line for relievers, not sure I can place him over the line yet - thanks for the auto.
Jack Morris - the next Jim Rice? Maybe we'll get to hear about how feared Morris was in the coming years?
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Rafael Palmeiro
Alan Trammell
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Rafael Palmeiro
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Lou Whitaker-Write-in
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
McGwire
If this was even a part of the reason Lou Whitaker went one-and-done, then I say F that "rule." Or call it the lesser of two evils: It could have avoided 3 LW write-ins thus far....
My ballot to follow after more research.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Honorable mention to Bernie Williams, who I think is worthy, but not top-10
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
I would put Bernie Williams as well, if I were allowed to vote for 11.
Raines
Larkin
Trammell
Palmeiro
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams
I realise not including Larkin will likely draw flak, but the voting rules only say I need to vote for candidates worthy of election. With 11 candidates worthy of election, I dropped Larkin because he needs the votes the least, not because I think he's the least worthy of the 11 (he's obviously not).
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams
Would have voted for Palmeiro without the 10 person ballot limit
Come on! At least try to be subtle when you post from multiple accounts.
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Allan Trammell
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Dale Murphy
Tim Salmon
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
Honorable mention to Bernie Williams. And I wanted to vote for Lee Smith (my Cub bias?), but I just can't.
EDIT: I was a bit shaky on my last three, but I think I tend to be a larger hall guy.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Jack Morris
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Murphy's new, Bert and Alomar from 2011 ballot were elected. McGwire and Palmeiro "adjusted" out, not "bright lined" out.
If I had a real life ballot, I'd write in Pete Rose.
But, since this is under BBWAA rules and they clearly don't give a ####, I think everyone is okay :-)
Bagwell
Trammell
Raines
Martinez
Walker
Palmeiro
McGwire
Smith
Williams
My understanding is that discussion is permitted, vote counting is not.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Kevin Brown (write-in)
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
echo what I assume is some handwringing over not having a pitcher on my ballot, but what's a paperboy to do?
David Cone
Lou Whitaker
Willie Randolph
Will Clark
Kevin Brown
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark Mcgwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams
Smith and Williams, at the very least, would be dropped (Brown and Whitaker) if the 5% rule was different.
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
(Kevin Brown)
Mark McGwire
(Lou Whitaker)
Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Rafael Palmeiro
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
McGriff 9th of the 9
Plus the person who left off Larkin has the first good reason for not voting for a superstar that I've ever seen.
I decline to submit a vote, as I've never seen any of the candidates play anywhere near the peak of their abilities (I started watching baseball regularly in 2003), and I refuse to judge solely on the statistics; there are plenty of people more qualified to do so.
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