BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: 2017 Hall of Merit Election Results: Rodriguez, Ramirez and Edmonds elected!

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Monday, December 19, 2016

2017 Hall of Merit Election Results: Rodriguez, Ramirez and Edmonds elected!

Ivan Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez and Jim Edmonds will be the Hall of Merit’s class of 2017!

Pudge was the top vote getter on 21 of 26 ballots, earning 567 of 624 possible points. Ramirez lead three ballots, earning 545 points. Edmonds and Jim McCormick each drew one top vote and Edmonds finished with 454 points, far ahead of Vladimir Guerrero who finished fourth with 267 points.

Guerrero, Sammy Sosa (255), Luis Tiant (189), Jeff Kent (179), Vic Willis (161), Kenny Lofton (151), Bobby Bonds (133), Ben Taylor (130), Buddy Bell (130) and Tommy Bridges (106) will be the top 10 returnees for 2018.

Jorge Posada finished 14th in his first time on the ballot, with 95 points. No other newcomers earned a vote.

Bob Johnson (86), Urban Shocker (80), Dick Redding (79), Phil Rizzuto (79), Wally Schang (79) and Sal Bando (68) rounded out the top 20.

The top newcomers for 2018 will be: Chipper Jones, Jim Thome, Scott Rolen, Andruw Jones, and Johan Santana.

Johnny Damon, Jamie Moyer, Carlos Zambrano, Omar Vizquel and Chris Carpenter also join the ballot in 2018.

RK   LY  Player             PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Ivan Rodriguez     567   25  21     2              1                    1
 2  n/e  Manny Ramirez      545   24   3 16  4  1                                 
 3    5  Jim Edmonds        454   24   1  5  7  1  4  3  1     1        1         
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4  n/e  Vladimir Guerrero  267   18      1     3  4  2  4  1     1  1  1         
 5    6  Sammy Sosa         255   20         1  1     4  2  3  3  1  1  2     2   
 6   10  Luis Tiant         189   15         1  1  3  3              1  1  4     1
 7    7  Jeff Kent          179   13      1     3  2  1     1     1  2     1     1
 8   12  Vic Willis         161   13         1  1  1     1  1  2  1  3     1     1
 9    8  Kenny Lofton       151   13            1  1  1  1     2  2  2  1  1     1
10   13  Bobby Bonds        133   11         1  1  1     1  1     2     1  1     2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11    9  Ben Taylor         130   11         2        1        2  1        1  4   
12   11  Buddy Bell         130   10         1  2           2  1  1  1     1  1   
13   14  Tommy Bridges      106    9      1  1     1           1           1  1  3
14  n/e  Jorge Posada        95    7         1  1  1           1  1  1        1   
15   23  Bob Johnson         86    8                     3        1  1  1     2   
16   21T Urban Shocker       80    6            1        2  1  1     1            
17T  19  Dick Redding        79    6         1     1        1  1     1           1
17T  15  Phil Rizzuto        79    6         1     1     1        1     1     1   
19   24  Wally Schang        78    6            1     1     2     1     1         
20   18  Sal Bando           68    6                  2        2           1     1
21   25  Tommy John          65    7            1           1           1     2  2
22   27  Hugh Duffy          63    5            1        1  1  1              1   
23   28  Don Newcombe        62    6               1              1  2     1  1   
24   16  Gavy Cravath        59    5                  1  1     1        2         
25   17  Bucky Walters       56    5                  1        1  2           1   
26   35T Jim McCormick       56    3   1  1                             1         
27   33  Bert Campaneris     55    5                  1  1              2  1      
28   20  Thurman Munson      54    5            1                 1  1  1     1   
29   21T Bus Clarkson        51    4            1     1        1              1   
30   49T Frank Chance        46    3         1              1     1               
31T  53  Ed Cicotte          45    4               1     1                 1  1   
31T  37  Mickey Welch        45    4               1              1  1     1      
33   29T Tommy Leach         44    4               1           1        1     1   
34   29T Fred McGriff        42    4                  1              1  1  1      
35   78T Tommy Bond          36    3            1           1                    1
36   31  Dale Murphy         35    4                              1     1  1  1   
37T  26  Hilton Smith        31    3                     1        1              1
37T  40T Vern Stephens       31    3                              2     1         
39   49T Bobby Veach         30    2               1     1                        
40   35T Luke Easter         29    2         1                                1   
41   62T Tony Mullane        28    2                  1     1                     
42   34  Bob Elliott         27    3                        1              1     1
43T  82T Art Fletcher        26    3                                    2  1      
43T  39  John Olerud         26    3                                 1     2      
45T  57T Lou Brock           26    2                  1           1               
45T  62T Orel Hershiser      26    2                        2                     
47   42T Dizzy Dean          25    2            1                          1      
48   72T Joe Tinker          24    3                              1           1  1
49   42T Addie Joss          23    1      1                                       
50T  32  Trevor Hoffman      22    2                        1           1         
50T  67T Kirby Puckett       22    2                           1     1            
52   46  Nomar Carciaparra   21    2                        1              1      
53   62T Billy Wagner        20    2                        1                 1   
54   38  Brian Giles         17    2                                 1        1   
55T  47T Babe Adams          17    1            1                                 
55T  55T Jack Quinn          17    1            1                                 
57   57T Dolf Luque          16    1               1                              
58   --  Charlie Buffinton   15    1                  1                           
59T  --  Dwight Gooden       14    1                     1                        
59T  57T Ernie Lombardi      14    1                     1                        
59T  60  Lee Smith           14    1                     1                        
59T  61  Ed Williamson       14    1                     1                        
63   76T Frank Viola         13    1                        1                     
64   51  Dave Bancroft       12    2                                             2
65T  40T Dave Concepcion     12    1                           1                  
65T  67T Luis Gonzalez       12    1                           1                  
65T  62T Jim Kaat            12    1                           1                  
68T  54  Kevin Appier        10    1                                 1            
68T  72T Ron Cey             10    1                                 1            
68T  69T Toby Harrah         10    1                                 1            
71T  78T Carlos Delgado       9    1                                    1         
71T  76T Frank Tanana         9    1                                    1         
73T  52  Norm Cash            8    1                                       1      
73T  82T Lefty Gomez          8    1                                       1      
75T  --  Luis Aparicio        6    1                                             1
75T  78T George J. Burns      6    1                                             1
75T  --  Fred Dunlap          6    1                                             1
75T  --  Johnny Evers         6    1                                             1
75T  --  Pie Traynor          6    1                                             1
75T  --  George Uhle          6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Jose Cruz (42T), Billy Nash (42T), Tom York (47T), Jimmy Ryan (55T),
Roy White(62T), Carl Mays (69T), Gene Tenace (69T), Wilbur Cooper (72T),
Elston Howard (72T), Carlos Moran (78T), Sam Leever (82T).
Ballots Cast: 26

JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 19, 2016 at 08:13 PM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:04 PM (#5371149)

Congrats to the new inductees!

As for the caps the inductees will wear:

Pudge is pretty obviously a Ranger and Edmonds clearly had much more value with the Cardinals than the Angels.

Ramirez is a close call. Both DanR and Fangraphs say he had more value with Cleveland than Boston. He played one extra season in Boston (116 games, 587 plate appearances). His OPS+ was very slightly higher with the Red Sox (155-152), however his glove was much better in Cleveland (-7.5 DWAR v. -11.4 DWAR). I lean towards Cleveland, but could be convinced either way. Thoughts?

2. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:07 PM (#5371150)

And thanks a bunch to OCF and Ron Wargo for tallying the results. They do yeomen's work and anyone associated with the project should by them a drink if they run into them.

Thanks to theorioleway for his work on the plaques and to Rob Wood for his editing.

I ask this every year, but does anyone want to take over the curator thing? I will get you editor access if you don't have it, and you can do whatever you'd like with it. I really don't have the time, and while I have the best intentions, I know I get distracted and forget once the election passes.

3. DL from MN Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:41 PM (#5371161)

Thanks to everyone for having an election I don't have to tally!

4. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:55 PM (#5371169)

1....Count da ringzzz!!!

I'll show myself out.

5. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 19, 2016 at 10:15 PM (#5371176)

Heh, that's a fair point Joe. The playoff success with Boston is a pretty reasonable tiebreaker.

6. The Honorable Ardo Posted: December 20, 2016 at 03:16 AM (#5371230)

Quite a long tail on the distribution of votes. Only 12 players were named on at least 10 ballots; I wonder if that's an all-time low.

7. bjhanke Posted: December 20, 2016 at 07:28 AM (#5371240)

Joe - Thanks for the comment in the ballot thread. What happened, apparently, is this - I always, every year, see everything about the HoM yearly voting in the "Featured" section of the BTF home page. The Discussion thread was there. This Results thread is there. But the Ballot thread never appeared there, and it never occurred to me to go to the Hall of Merit page, because I'd never had to before. I thought it had somehow just not appeared on my page. Next time, I'll know to check the HoM section. Thanks! - Brock

8. karlmagnus Posted: December 20, 2016 at 08:51 AM (#5371255)

Manny's defense in Boston is also a funny number; all Boston left fielders get dinged in the defense metrics because of the Wall. I second Joe Bivens, in strongly wanting Manny to be a Red Sox, being an overage fanboy of both.

9. Howie Menckel Posted: December 20, 2016 at 08:53 AM (#5371256)

All-time 'Votes Points' thru 2017 - those still eligible in 2018 election are in CAPS

[ronw or RickA likely will fix the occasional mistakes, and thanks for that as always]

for newer voters, the top leftovers might be another small group to at least kick the tires on

Cravath passes Ryan for 17th place
Indian Bob up 2 spots to 27th
Schang schnags 45th
Willis now 48th with a bullet

TOP 50, ALL-TIME, unofficial (pts this year)
DUFFY...... 27999.5 (63)
VAN HALTREN 26923.5 (x)
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
WELCH...... 18883 (45)
REDDING.... 18755 (79) epic battle to be top unchosen P
Childs..... 18484
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976

LEACH...... 16094 (44)
ChaJones....15875
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
CRAVATH.....12695 (59)
RYAN....... 12678.5 (x)
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349

WALTERS.....12140 (56)
Roush...... 12005
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
BJOHNSON.....9918 (86)
Beckwith.... 9896
GRIMES.......9876 (x)
DOYLE....... 9816 (x)

HStovey......9576
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
McGraw.......8145
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BMONROE......7947 (x)

Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
SCHANG.......7083 (78)
WILLIAMSON...7035 (14)
WILLIS.......7023 (161)
CPBell.......6968
Galvin.......6585

Others in active top 50 (X if no votes this year):

DDean 6039, Rizzuto 5433, Bridges 5407, Elliott 5345, BTaylor 5319, Joss 5043, Tiant 4611, TPerez 4385X, FChance 4064, Traynor 3848X, NCash 3810, CMays 3803x, BoBonds 3524, McCormick 3495, OCepeda 3465X, Cicotte 3404, SRice 3301X, LBrock 3262, EHoward 2947, BClarkson 2836, Singleton 2723X, VStephens 2709, Tiernan 2709X, FJones 2636X, Puckett 2602, Klein 2601X, Veach 2448, Mullane 2437, Staub 2396X, GJBurns 2388X, Lombardi 2306, Dunlap 2304, Concepcion 2183, Bancroft 2151, Newcombe 2103

10. Qufini Posted: December 20, 2016 at 11:25 AM (#5371355)

The top three was somewhat predictable but I'm a little surprised at some other results in the top ten. I'm surprised that Guerrero finished ahead of Sosa for 4th. It should be quite a battle between those two next year (if there are any open slots available after the law firm of Jones, Thome, Rolen and Jones get through). I also found it interesting that Tiant and Willis leapfrogged frontloggers Kent and Lofton. Did Kent and Lofton benefit from a shiny new toy effect?

11. bjhanke Posted: December 20, 2016 at 12:28 PM (#5371415)

On that first group in your Top 50: The WELCH involved here is Curt, not Bob, right? - Brock

12. Mr Dashwood Posted: December 20, 2016 at 12:33 PM (#5371419)

I was planning on returning to voting this year, but circumstances conspired to prevent me. These were the names on my ballot at the time work ground to a halt, with several pitchers still needing to be run through the new system:

Manny Ramirez (clearly going to be my #1)
then, in alphabetical order:

Sal Bando (but I was reconsidering him)
Tommy Bridges
Burleigh Grimes
Vladimir Guerrero (quite high, perhaps as high as #2)
Bob Johnson
Jeff Kent
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Jorge Posada
Ivan Rodriguez (I don't see his bat as strong as most people)
Lee Smith
Vern Stephens
Ben Taylor
Vic Willis

Fred McGriff was next-runner-up, and I was seriously considering replacing Taylor with McGriff. It really depended on how much weight one wanted to give to the 'uncertainty value' that must affect Negro Leaguers' statistics.

Some players I hadn't looked at but whom I thought had a good chance at making the ballot were Bucky Walters, Dizzy Dean and Jim Kaat.

13. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 20, 2016 at 01:04 PM (#5371440)

1....Count da ringzzz!!!

I'll show myself out.

No need for that, since he was better in Boston to begin with.

As for the new inductees, congrats! All three deserve the honor, IMO.

14. DanG Posted: December 20, 2016 at 03:22 PM (#5371547)

On that first group in your Top 50: The WELCH involved here is Curt, not Bob, right? - Brock

Actually it's a guy from the first HoM ballot, Mickey Welch.

15. Howie Menckel Posted: December 20, 2016 at 08:40 PM (#5371727)

yes, sorry. it's Mickey

16. bjhanke Posted: December 21, 2016 at 10:12 AM (#5371864)

Ah! Mickey Welch. I forgot about him. What went through my mind was that Bob could not have accumulated that many vote points. The first Welch I thought of was Curt, and the reason I posted up was to find out whether there was actually a campaign for Curt. Curt seemed like a terrible choice, though. Mickey sounds much better. - Brock

17. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 23, 2016 at 11:56 AM (#5373449)

Congrats to I-Rod, Manny, and Jimmy on induction to the Hall of Merit...still waiting on the Hall of Fame.

Ramirez also has a small edge by Kiko W-L with Boston, looks like he goes in as a Red Sox.

10. Chris Fluit Posted: December 20, 2016 at 11:25 AM (#5371355)
The top three was somewhat predictable but I'm a little surprised at some other results in the top ten. I'm surprised that Guerrero finished ahead of Sosa for 4th. It should be quite a battle between those two next year (if there are any open slots available after the law firm of Jones, Thome, Rolen and Jones get through). I also found it interesting that Tiant and Willis leapfrogged frontloggers Kent and Lofton. Did Kent and Lofton benefit from a shiny new toy effect?

Great points Chris, if Andruw Jones is viewed with backlog glut, 2018 will have the first "backloggish" electee since 2012 with Rick Reuschel and David Cone and 2008 with John McGraw and Reggie Smith.
Chipper, Thome, Rolen, and #4 (Andruw, Guerrero, Sosa, Tiant, Kent, Willis, Lofton, Posada?)

18. Mike Webber Posted: December 23, 2016 at 12:59 PM (#5373477)

Do we still get the summary that tells us who had the most and least consensus ballots? I always looked forward to those.

19. OCF Posted: December 23, 2016 at 11:19 PM (#5373677)

OK, Mike, you asked. I haven't really been maintaining the formulas, so I'm not sure if what I have is appropriate to an elect-3 year, but here's what I do have. A fairly high-consensus year overall; highest possible score would have been +20.

+13 theorioleway
+13 Mike Webber
+11 Howie Menckel
+11 Willie Mays Hays
+10 Chris Fluit
+10 Rob Wood
+10 OCF
+9 Devin
+8 Dr. Chaleeko
+7 Ardo
+5 rwargo
+4 Patrick W.
+4 Yardape
+4 John Murphy
+3 Al Peterson
+3 Bleed the Freak
+2 bjhanke
+2 Joe D
+1 dan b
-1 DL from MN
-4 Michael J. Binkley
-5 rawagman
-8 Kiko Sakata
-9 karlmagnus
-12 Bill Simon
-12 bachslunch

So our two newest voters turned out to be the ones furthest out of step with the rest of the electorate. bachslunch got there by boycotting both Ramirez and Rodriguez. Bill Simon got there by being, well, eccentric.

20. karlmagnus Posted: December 24, 2016 at 11:43 AM (#5373741)

Glad to see I've maintained my long-term, much-prized record of being the most out of step that it's possible to be, year after year, without actually being banned from the place! :)

21. karlmagnus Posted: December 25, 2016 at 10:21 AM (#5373920)

Idiot machine won't let me comment on the 2018 discussion thread. I just wanted to point out to new voters that (i) the AA was close to complete equality in 1885-86 and (ii) Caruthers was elected as much for his hitting as his pitching; he was a genuine 2-way player who should be in the HOF. Interesting to see if this new Japanese guy can survive in today's leagues on that basis.

22. Kiko Sakata

Posted: December 26, 2016 at 06:21 PM (#5374266)

OCF, thanks for #19! I was curious how idiosyncratic I was. That was probably about what I expected - i.e., pretty damn idiosyncratic. I have to work harder to convince the rest of you of the wisdom of my system! :-)

23. bjhanke Posted: December 28, 2016 at 02:05 PM (#5374740)

This is mildly off-topic, but - I was looking at my copy of the members of the Hall. I noticed that Pie Traynor isn't on the list. That was a surprise. I know that Pie was overrated according to modern metrics. But what if modern metrics had been invented in 1948, when Pie was elected? The BBWAA, acting on this info, would certainly have indicted Traynor. There was only one 3B who ranks higher (by the Historical Abstract system); Home Run Baker. Stan Hack was about one decade into his career. Al Rosen had had about 15 AB in two call-ups. Eddie Mathews would be a rookie in 1954. Under the circumstances, I think that the BBWAA got it right. I think we'd come to the same conclusion if we were actually voting in 1948, and just didn't know that Eddie Mathews would soon become the Gold Standard for third basemen. That leads to this: Are we supposed to use not only modern metrics, but also the 20/20 vision of hindsight? Because if we aren't using hindsight, than Pie Traynor very certainly belongs in the Hall. PS - Yes I should have posted this into the Pie Traynor thread, but the actual question here is more general - are we supposed to use hindsight or not? - Brock

24. DL from MN Posted: December 28, 2016 at 02:58 PM (#5374770)

Pie Traynor probably was the best white 3B of his time. His defense was better than most had seen previously (partly due to better fielding gloves). However, the best 3B of his era were black (Jud Wilson, Beckwith).

25. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: January 17, 2017 at 12:46 PM (#5384497)

For the record, at the time of Traynor's eligibility for the HoM, we had elected 3 full-time 3B (Ezra Sutton, Jimmy Collins and Home Run Baker), plus Heinie Groh, who was about 3/4 of a 3B, and Deacon White, who was about half.

Jud Wilson (who was elected quickly) was almost done with his career, and Stan Hack was about 2/3 through. We also had John Beckwith, Joe Sewell and John McGraw as eligible candidates who have since been elected. Traynor started off ahead of McGraw, but behind the other two (as well as Tommy Leach)

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Monday, December 19, 2016

2017 Hall of Merit Election Results: Rodriguez, Ramirez and Edmonds elected!

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