User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.5569 seconds
59 querie(s) executed
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
| ||||||||
Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Wednesday, January 09, 2019Roy Halladay, Mariano Rivera, and “Cannonball” Dick Redding elected - Hall of Merit Class of 2019Congrats to the class of 2019, Roy Halladay, Mariano Rivera, and “Cannonball” Dick Redding! Halladay and Rivera each garnered 9 of 27 first place votes, with Redding carrying 6 others. There was strong consensus this year - no other player received more than four top 3 votes. Halladay had 25, Rivera 19, and Redding 15. Todd Helton (5th), Jeff Kent (9th) and Jim McCormick (41st) also received first place votes. Halladay was the only player named on all 27 ballots. Rivera was named on 26 and Redding 22. Others named on at least half of the ballots include Luis Tiant (4th), who was named on 20, Helton on 19, Kenny Lofton (6th) on 18, Johan Santana (10th) on 16, Andruw Jones (7th) and Ben Taylor (8th) on 15. Redding vaulted from 20th to 3rd on the strength of new MLEs. It was his 83rd year of eligibility a great testament to perpetual eligibility. The system works! All of the top ten were mentioned above. Players also requiring comment next year (top 10 returning players) include Wally Schang, Sammy Sosa, and Lance Berkman. Players in the top 30 moving up or down at least 5 places include: Wally Schang from 19 to 11 RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 n/e Roy Halladay 612 27 9 10 6 2 2 n/e Mariano Rivera 549 26 9 7 3 3 1 1 1 1 3 20 Dick Redding 442 22 6 4 5 1 1 1 2 1 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 5 Luis Tiant 263 20 1 1 1 2 3 3 2 1 3 1 1 1 5 n/e Todd Helton 244 19 1 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 2 3 6 7 Kenny Lofton 217 18 1 1 1 3 1 2 2 2 2 1 2 7 8 Andruw Jones 201 15 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 8 10 Ben Taylor 196 15 4 2 2 1 1 3 1 1 9 9 Jeff Kent 188 12 1 3 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 10 11 Johan Santana 179 16 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 3 1 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 19 Wally Schang 153 12 1 1 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 12 6 Sammy Sosa 148 13 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 13 n/e Lance Berkman 135 9 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 14 24 Thurman Munson 105 9 1 2 2 1 3 15 23 Phil Rizzuto 102 9 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 16 17 Bob Johnson 99 11 1 2 2 1 2 1 2 17 12 Buddy Bell 97 8 1 2 1 1 1 2 18 15 Vic Willis 94 9 4 2 1 1 1 19 14 Jorge Posada 91 7 1 1 2 1 1 1 20 13 Bobby Bonds 78 6 1 2 1 1 1 21 16 Sal Bando 75 6 2 1 1 1 1 22 32 Don Newcombe 66 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 23 22 Tommy John 66 5 2 1 1 1 24 n/e Andy Pettitte 59 5 1 1 2 1 25 36 Art Fletcher 55 4 1 1 1 1 26 21 Tommy Bridges 54 5 1 1 1 2 27 26 Gavy Cravath 53 5 1 1 1 2 28 31 Tommy Leach 50 4 1 1 1 1 29 28 Bucky Walters 46 5 1 1 1 2 30T 27 Bert Campaneris 43 4 1 1 1 1 30T 18 Urban Shocker 43 4 1 1 1 1 32 30 Joe Tinker 36 3 1 1 1 33 40 Kevin Appier 35 3 1 1 1 34 44T Bobby Veach 34 3 2 1 35 35 Bus Clarkson 31 2 1 1 36 53T Ed Cicotte 30 2 1 1 37 53T Dolf Luque 29 2 1 1 38 41 Vern Stephens 26 3 1 1 1 39 37 Mickey Welch 24 3 1 1 1 40 44T Fred McGriff 24 2 1 1 41 33T Jim McCormick 24 1 1 42T 64T Tommy Bond 23 1 1 42T 47T Addie Joss 23 1 1 44 42 Luke Easter 22 2 1 1 45 77T Johnny Evers 20 2 1 1 46T 61T Dwight Gooden 19 2 1 1 46T n/e Roy Oswalt 19 2 1 1 48 50 Bob Elliott 18 2 1 1 49 33T Babe Adams 16 1 1 50T 58T Ernie Lombardi 15 1 1 50T 71T Frank Tanana 15 1 1 52T 61T Nomar Carciaparra 14 1 1 52T -- Tommy Henrich 14 1 1 52T 25 Hilton Smith 14 1 1 55 60 John Olerud 13 2 1 1 56T 56T Mickey Lolich 13 1 1 56T 58T Lee Smith 13 1 1 58T 39 Frank Chance 12 1 1 58T 29 Hugh Duffy 12 1 1 58T -- Chuck Finley 12 1 1 58T -- Carlos Moran 12 1 1 58T 64T Tony Mullane 12 1 1 58T 61T Billy Wagner 12 1 1 64T 46 Dizzy Dean 11 1 1 64T -- Fred Dunlap 11 1 1 64T -- Harry Hooper 11 1 1 64T 53T Jack Quinn 11 1 1 68T 64T Kiki Cuyler 10 1 1 68T 38 Orel Hershiser 10 1 1 68T -- Heavy Johnson 10 1 1 71T -- Dave Bancroft 9 1 1 71T -- Hurley McNair 9 1 1 73T -- Silvio Garcia 8 1 1 73T 64T Luis Gonzalez 8 1 1 73T -- Tony Phillips 8 1 1 76T 77T Luis Aparicio 7 1 1 76T -- Sam Bankhead 7 1 1 76T 51T Brian Giles 7 1 1 76T 51T Dale Murphy 7 1 1 80 71T Robin Ventura 6 1 1 Dropped Out: Lou Brock (47T), Ron Cey (70), Dave Concepcion (77T), Andy Cooper (56T), Ray Dandridge (43), Willie Davis (73), Carlos Delgado (74T), Lefty Gomez (77T), Gil Hodges (74T), Trevor Hoffman (49), Jamie Moyer (68T), Kirby Puckett (68T), Hack Wilson (74T). Ballots Cast: 27 JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head
Posted: January 09, 2019 at 08:21 PM | 59 comment(s)
Login to Bookmark
Related News: |
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot Topics2024 Hall of Merit Ballot Ballot
(2 - 9:54pm, Dec 06) Last: kcgard2 2024 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (179 - 9:54pm, Dec 06) Last: kcgard2 Mock Hall of Fame 2024 Contemporary Baseball Ballot - Managers, Executives and Umpires (28 - 10:54pm, Dec 03) Last: cardsfanboy Hall of Merit Book Club (16 - 6:06pm, Dec 01) Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Most Meritorious Player: 2023 Results (2 - 5:01pm, Nov 29) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 2023 Ballot (12 - 5:45pm, Nov 28) Last: kcgard2 Most Meritorious Player: 2023 Discussion (14 - 5:22pm, Nov 16) Last: Bleed the Freak Reranking First Basemen: Results (55 - 11:31pm, Nov 07) Last: Chris Cobb Mock Hall of Fame Discussion Thread: Contemporary Baseball - Managers, Executives and Umpires 2023 (15 - 8:23pm, Oct 30) Last: Srul Itza Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Results (7 - 9:28am, Oct 17) Last: Chris Cobb Ranking the Hall of Merit Pitchers (1893-1923) - Discussion (68 - 1:25pm, Oct 14) Last: DL from MN Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Ballot (13 - 2:22pm, Oct 12) Last: DL from MN Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Discussion (39 - 10:42am, Oct 12) Last: Guapo Reranking Shortstops: Results (7 - 8:15am, Sep 30) Last: kcgard2 Reranking First Basemen: Ballot (18 - 10:13am, Sep 11) Last: DL from MN |
|||||||
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2021 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| Page rendered in 0.5569 seconds |
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: January 09, 2019 at 08:48 PM (#5803918)He came on in 1937, when Harry Heilmann & Cristobal Torriente were chosen. I'm leaning towards no on that. 1938 was Heinie Groh & Stan Coveleski, and I think he definitely should've been ahead of them.
I think it's impossible to figure out. We've had a few players get to within one player of getting in and then not get in and fade away. But this player got in. So it's impossible to tell if he would have lost his support if he hadn't gotten in.
+1 on Redding going in as a NY Lincoln Giant.
Previous MLE Dick Redding made my PHoM in 2008. He would have been elected PHoM first-ballot in 1937 with the new MLE.
For the overall HoM I don't see how he makes it past 1939 when we elected Faber and Carey. The answer is sometime between 1937 and 1939.
I had him #16 this year - and that was using bWAR as the foundation - with a healthy dose of DanR WAR intuition thrown in.
Let me pull his DanR WAR up ... IIRC DanR WAR is not on exactly the same scale as bWAR or fWAR. I believe his replacement level is higher and his WAR is lower.
Here are the WAPA (wins above positional average) for Helton those years:
-0.4
0.5
-0.4
4.4
4.3
3.4
4.1
4.6
2.9
TOTAL = 23.4
Here's Jack Clark
Clark is 50.2 WAR and 28 WAPA. Helton is 50.1 WAR and 26.7 WAPA.
Also, is it correct that we need all the electees from 2014 to 2019 and not just this year's? I'm happy to tackle the project, but don't want to re-do work that I'm just not finding.
As far as I can tell, plaques have been written up to and including the 2016 class (Griffey, Mussina, Smoltz, Sheffield). But I am not sure that these plaques have been "added" to the HOM Plaque Room.
Maybe theorioleway or Joe (or anyone else in the know) can chime in here.
HOF = +60, HOM = +52...HOM has a chance to fill 3 of the 8 if just Jeter makes the HOF next year.
Apologies if I goofed on any classifications:
HOM:
Dick Allen
Ross Barnes
John Beckwith
Barry Bonds
Ken Boyer
Kevin Brown
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Cupid Childs
Will Clark
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Bill Dahlen
Jim Edmonds
Darrell Evans
Dwight Evans
Wes Ferrell
Bill Freehan
Jack Glasscock
George Gore
Bobby Grich
Heinie Groh
Stan Hack
Keith Hernandez
Paul Hines
Joe Jackson
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
Sherry Magee
Mark McGwire
Cal McVey
Minnie Minoso
Dobie Moore
Graig Nettles
Alejandro Oms
Rafael Palmeiro
Dickey Pearce
Billy Pierce
Lip Pike
Manny Ramirez
Willie Randolph
Rick Reuschel
Hardy Richardson
Scott Rolen
Pete Rose
Home Run Johnson
Bret Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Jimmy Sheckard
Gary Sheffield
Ted Simmons
Reggie Smith
Joe Start
Dave Stieb
Harry Stovey
Ezra Sutton
Quincy Trouppe
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
Jimmy Wynn
HOF:
Luis Aparicio
Harold Baines
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Jim Bottomley
Lou Brock
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Chance
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combs
Andy Cooper
Kiki Cuyler
Ray Dandridge
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Hugh Duffy
Johnny Evers
Rick Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
Trevor Hoffman
Harry Hooper
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Travis Jackson
Judy Johnson
Addie Joss
George Kell
High Pockets Kelly
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Freddie Lindstrom
Ernie Lombardi
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Rube Marquard
Bill Mazeroski
Tommy McCarthy
Jack Morris
Herb Pennock
Tony Perez
Kirby Puckett
Sam Rice
Jim Rice
Phil Rizzuto
Ray Schalk
Red Schoendienst
Lee Smith
Hilton Smith
Bruce Sutter
Ben Taylor
Joe Tinker
Pie Traynor
Lloyd Waner
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Hack Wilson
Ross Youngs
[edit: Lofton also has some talented CF competition: Griffey, Edmonds, Beltran, A. Jones, & Bernie Williams, perhaps even Johnny Damon if you like.]
Jim Edmonds is just enough better than Lofton
Edmonds demolishes Lofton in Kiko's stat, 210.7 to 110.2.
https://baseball.tomthress.com/Leaders/UberLeaders.php
Kikos, Baseball Gauge, and Baseball Reference assessment of defense in wins.
JE: 10.7, 10.2, 3.2
KL: 6.0, 2.7, 10.5
I'm feeling Edmonds is THE most underrated position player of the past 25 years, at minimum a mid-tier HOF candidate that was one-and-done and is often questioned by intelligent baseball minds like John DiFool2.
Dick Redding - 2019 - P
Parts of 22 seasons with Lincoln Giants 1911-1914, 1915-1916; Lincoln Stars 1914-1915; Indianapolis ABCs 1915; Chicago American Giants 1917; Brooklyn Royal Giants 1918-1919, 1923-1931; Bacharach Giants 1919-1922, 1932
Cap: Brooklyn Royal Giants (ECL)
Dick Redding was one of the greatest pitchers in Negro League history. Legendary team owner, Cumberland Posey Jr. named him the #2 pitcher in Negro League history, one slot ahead of Satchel Paige. He earned the nickname “Cannonball” thanks to his overpowering speed. Cannonball Dick’s fastball was feared by opposing hitters and he wouldn’t hesitate to intimidate a hitter by coming inside. Redding is credited with 30 No-hitters against all levels of opposition during his career. Known as a fun-loving, easy-going player, Buck Leonard said “He never argued, never cursed, never smoked as I recall; I never saw him take a drink”. A superstitious player, Redding was known to buy a new glove if he lost a game and would wear the same shirt for multiple games. He also served combat duty in France in 1918.
The 6’4” Righthander from Georgia joined the Philadelphia Giants in 1911 at age 21, but by mid-season was a member of the New York Lincoln Giants. Over the next few years, he formed possibly the greatest pitching 1-2 punch of all-time with Smokey Joe Williams. In 1912, he was credited with “several” No-hitters, including one against the Cuban Giants. He was a member of several Championship teams, including the 1912&1913; Lincoln Giants (East), 1915 Lincoln Stars (East), 1917 Chicago American Giants (West), and 1919 Bacharach Giants (East). He was credited with 134 (2nd All-time on Seamheads) career wins in league play (includes Cuba) plus many more while barnstorming. Redding was also 2nd on the all-time strikeout list with 1247. Eric Chalek’s updated MLEs show a 93.0 career WAR which led to the comment; “Redding is to Smokey Joe Williams almost exactly as Pete Alexander was to Walter Johnson.” Redding also spent much of the latter half of his career as a player-manager for both the Bacharach Giants and Brooklyn Royal Giants.
I lost my formatting, so we'll need to get that back before posting. I used Wikipedia, Seamheads, Hall of Miller and Eric website, Baseball reference and the Negro League Baseball eMuseum as sources. Let me know if you have thoughts/comments on anything. For now, I'll move on to either Mo or Halladay while I wait.
Mariano Rivera - 2019 - P
19 seasons with New York Yankees 1995-2013
Cap: New York Yankees (AL)
Known as “Sandman” for putting games to bed, Mariano “Mo” Rivera is widely considered to be the greatest relief pitcher of all-time. Rivera was known primarily for his mid-90s cut fastball which was nearly impossible for lefthanded batters to hit and is considered to be one of the most dominant pitches of all time. Chipper Jones described the pitch as a “buzz saw”. Besides his signature pitch, Mo was also known for precise control and a reserved, business-like demeanor on the mound.
The Panamanian righthander signed with the Yankees in 1990 and for the next 5 years, was groomed as a starting pitcher. A rough 10 starts in 1995 as well as 51/3 scoreless innings in relief in the 1995 Division Series convinced the Yankees to move him to the bullpen in 1996. From 1997-2013, Mo was the Yankees primary closer. Rivera was a major contributor to 5 World Series Champions (1996,1998-2000,2009), 2 additional American League Champions (2001 & 2003), 13 Eastern Division Winners, and 4 Wild Card Winners. Mo was one of the single most dominant players in postseason history. In 141 IPs over 96 Games, he posted a 0.70 ERA, 0.759 WHIP, 110 Ks, only 2 HRs allowed, an 8-1 Record, and 42 Saves. In the regular season, he is the all-time career leader in Saves (652), Games Finished (952), and ERA+ (205). His career WHIP of 1.000 is good for 3rd all-time. He led the AL in Saves 3 times (1999,2001,2004). He compiled 12 seasons with an ERA+ of at least 200 (60 IP minimum), including 2 seasons of at least 300. The 13-time All-Star (1997,1999-2002,2004-2006,2008-2011,2013) won the Rolaids Relief Award 5 times (1999,2001,2004,2005,2009), a World Series MVP (1999), and an ALCS MVP (2003). Mo also finished top 5 in CY Young voting 5 different times.
Have ZERO idea what bed you dragged that straw man out from. You can save the needless sarcasm too. I think they both belong, if you want to know. Just wondering why the in/out line was drawn between these two CFers, when I cannot see much of a gap between them at all.
While I don't advocate junking every last defensive analysis out there certainly, if the various metrics can vary by THAT much, I'm not sure what definite & precise conclusions you can draw. Pretty mind-boggling if you ask me.
In any event Lofton is probably a lock by 2021 at the latest, given the upcoming candidates for the next two elections.
If your trim Lofton's low level filler seasons and adjust each for strike seasons, you get ~8000 PA per player:
JE: 131 wRC+ career, 168, 157, 156, 149, 148, 139, 134*, 125, 124, 124. * for seasons with < 130 games played.
KL: 114 wRC+ career, 142, 125, 125*, 118*, 115*, 109, 108, 108, 108, 107.
Kikos, Baseball Gauge, and Baseball Reference assessment of defense in wins, plus an average.
JE: 10.7, 10.2, 3.2, 8.0
KL: 6.0, 2.7, 10.5, 6.4
Edmonds is clearly the better hitter, while he may have been the better defender (he shows as such on average), so I don't personally see these guys as really close to one another. Though bemoaned for durability, Jimmy actually nudges by Kenny in games played per year, 143 to 138.
Let's compare Lofton with the other "leading" OF candidate and somewhat contemporary Andruw Jones...
Lopping off Andruw's below replacement Dodger campaign and first and last filler seasons...
KL: 114 wRC+ career, 142, 125, 125*, 118*, 115*, 109, 108, 108, 108, 107.
AJ: 114 wRC+ career, 134, 130, 127, 124, 118, 113, 112, 112, 97, 96.
Kikos, Baseball Gauge, and Baseball Reference assessment of defense in wins, plus an average.
KL: 6.0, 2.7, 10.5, 6.4
AJ: 15.4, 20.0, 23.0, 19.5
So general question for those with Lofton > Andruw, is this a strength of league thing, something else as Andruw is a comparable hitter but better fielder?
one quibble: while Rivera's 'walk-in music' was "Enter Sandman" by Metallica (same for Billy Wagner fyi), I live in the NY area and never once heard a living soul call him "The Sandman." I'm amazed that it is listed in some places online as a nickname for him.
also, Rivera wouldn't be thrilled to have that as his lead-in:
https://foxsports1280.iheart.com/content/2019-01-23-mariano-rivera-refuses-to-listen-to-metallica-citing-his-religion/
"As a Christian, with all due respect to Metallica, I don't listen to that kind of music," Rivera added.
Maybe he should have had Celine Dion for his walk-up instead?
Yikes, he even acknowledges liking the guys.
Sorry for the delay on Halladay. I had planned to be home yesterday, but got a last minute ticket to the Brewers fan fest, so the day got completely away from me. I'll get that done in the next couple days.
Seriously? "That kind of music"??
Metllica's original guitarist and co-founding member was a born-again Christian!
I'll bet Mariano is completely unaware of that fact. Or maybe it doesn't matter to him, because heavy metal is automatically Satanic. That's the strong vibe I get from this quote.
Methinks Mariano takes the definition of "closer" a tad too seriously. You close the game, Mariano, not your mind.
Athletes can be really smart: Muhammad Ali for instance, or Jackie Robinson, or Jim Brown, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Then there's Tom Brady and his hat. Like the brain-dead collegiates who insist that Jesus helped them score that touchdown, Mariano has demonstrated - in case there was any lingering doubt - that consummate athleticism doesn't guarantee even league-average brainpower.
(Apologies to the potentially offended - but stuff like this crawls right up my nose... )
[/rants]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNUgsbKisp8
Not, I grant you, very imposing for a closer, but I thought they might be using reverse psychology.
#32. While I agree that Rivera's quote doesn't hold up to scrutiny, I would kindly suggest not closing your mind to the idea that those "brain-dead collegiates" might not be wrong that Jesus helps them score touchdowns. Not in the sense that Jesus is rooting for their team rather than the other one, but that he gave them the gifts possible to succeed. After all, there is no concrete evidence that he hasn't. And the athletes you mention as smart were religious (albeit not necessarily Christian). Just something to think about.
:)
Sorry to contribute to the sidetrack.
I think I'll stick to baseball.
@Howie Menckel: Ad hominem attack, straw man fallacy, and just plain rude.
I mean he's from Panama, I doubt that Metallica is high on his list, Christian or not. I don't think it makes him that closed minded. If he is that Christian, enough to bring it up, I seriously doubt he's listening to any popular music, not just heavy metal. He probably doesn't listen to Taylor Swift or The Beatles either. Doesn't mean he cares if you do when he's in the same room. If he did, he would have cut off the entry song before it ever became a thing. Maybe he's a big Lifehouse fan :-)
And I'm sure it's not a big deal, because Metallica played the song live, in the Stadium the day they retired his number. If he was so Christian as to really be opposed to that kind of thing, that would not have happened. It's a throw away quote and nothing at all should be made of it.
I take the quote as, that type of music is not my thing. But hey, the fans liked it and it was fun that it became a thing.
16 seasons with Toronto Bluejays 1998-2009; Philadelphia Phillies 2010-2013
Cap: Toronto Bluejays (AL)
Known as a durable, old-school type pitcher, Doc Halladay retired as the active leader in complete games with 67. On May 29th, 2010, he threw the 20th Perfect Game in MLB history. On October 6th, 2010, he threw the 2nd No-Hitter in Postseason history while becoming the 5th pitcher to throw two No-Hitters in one season. Halladay is also one of only six pitchers to win a Cy Young in both the American and National leagues. The Righthander from Colorado featured a 2-seam sinking fastball, a 4-seam fastball, a cut fastball, and a curveball. He added a split-changeup when he joined the Phillies in 2010. Halladay was known for going into "isolation mode" before and during starts. He would not talk to anyone besides his manager and pitching coach in order to achieve complete concentration.
Halladay led his league in IPs 4 times (2002,2003,2008,2010) and threw over 200 IPs in 8 different seasons. He led his league in complete games 7 times and batters faced 3 times. He won 20 games 3 times (2003,2008,2010). Doc won 2 Cy Young awards (2003,2010), finished 2nd twice (2008,2011) and top 5 in 3 more seasons. Additionally, he was named to 8 All-Star teams (2002,2003,2005,2006,2008-2011).
Note on Cap: Earned about 75%-80% of WAR in Toronto and only had 2 good years in Philly. Even though they were probably his best 2, don't see this as a close decision.
Ok, that's all of 2019. I'll go back and do the 2017 & 2018 inductees, but it might be a few weeks on those.
Whoever left Mo completely off their ballot wins that competition hands down.
I don’t see this as eccentric at all, given the assumptions I’m going with. Mo ranked 22nd for me, seven slots off ballot. And I’m not apologizing for it. Everyone else had Mo on their ballot, most very high up — and for my taste, the rationales used struck me as illogical and eccentric, almost as if folks just felt he was the best player and were trying to shoehorn him in at the top any way they could. But maybe that’s just me. They’re welcome to their way of thinking, and I would hope they believe I’m welcome to mine.
Finally I see somebody is expressing the same viewpoint as me. I had him 15th on my ballot, which gave him credit for his post season performance which traditional WAR does not.
It's interesting to note that the season that Liam Hendriks had in 2019 was better than every season Mariano had except 1996. No other season is even close really. Makes you wonder why Rivera is so revered. I sort of know why, but I'm not drinking the koolade. The rationale is based on low ERA, high saves total, consistency, New York Yankee effect, post season success, and career length...but in terms of actual games won for his team he is on a par with David Wells (even with leverage built in). Nothing wrong with this, but his contribution is nowhere near where all the hype would suggest.
It's interesting to note that the season that Liam Hendriks had in 2019 was better than every season Mariano had except 1996.
I guess you're using fWAR? By bWAR, Mo had eight seasons better than Hendriks' 2019, and one tied.
Given that Rivera's ERA was half a run below his FIP over the course of 1,283 IP, despite pitching in front of a generally poor Yankees defense, I would tend to look more at dWAR than fWAR. Just going by bats broken, it's not hard to believe that Rivera had an actual ability to outperform his FIP.
Mickey Lolich 42.9
Kenny Rogers 42.8
Mariano Riveria 42.5 (unaminous HOF selection)
Tommy Bridges 42.3
Dolf Luque 42.2
George Mullin 42.0
Please discuss.
Mickey Lolich 42.9
Kenny Rogers 42.8
Mariano Riveria 42.5 (unaminous HOF selection)
Tommy Bridges 42.3
Dolf Luque 42.2
George Mullin 42.0
Please discuss.
Having a low amount of playing time is not an argument for being voted in the Hall of Merit. You wouldn't put a player in the Hall of Merit at any other position if he had 1/3 of the playing time. You are only doing it for pitchers and for Mariano Rivera, specifically.
TomH - I subscribe to Bill James Online. Yes, he has come up with a new rating method and is going through the playing positions one by one. He's up to Center Field now. The new system, which he calls the "double-pyramid" system, is detailed in a post before any of the rankings, so you'd need to scroll down some to find it. The method is odd, and I think that Bill is more trying to see what its strengths and weaknesses are than actually advocating for it. So far, the largest difference between these new rankings and the ones in the Hew Historical is that several of the 19th-century players have moved up. Bill seems to not be too happy with what happened to them in the New Historical Win Shares system. The new system is also unforgiving of short careers, even if brilliant. And players whose value is heavily in defense, as opposed to offense, are doing poorly in the new system.
JAWS relies on bbref WAR, which is based on RA (with some adjustments that I rather dislike, but those aren't the concern at the moment). RA is a rather blunt tool - it does a poor job of crediting runs to the right pitcher in many circumstances.
For example:
A pitcher gets two outs before allowing a single. He is removed and his replacement walks three straight batters before getting an out. The first pitcher is credited with 1 run in 2/3 inning while the latter, who clearly pitched worse, is credited with 0 runs over 1/3 inning. This is clearly poor crediting of runs.
A second scenario:
A pitcher loads the bases before being removed. His replacement gets three consecutive outs to end the threat. Both pitchers are credited 0 runs. This ignores the poor pitching of the first pitcher completely. It also doesn't credit the second one for pitching with a smaller margin for error.
For starting pitchers, who pitch the entirity of most of their innings, this system works mostly ok, and over a long career the poor measurement of those partial innings will likely balance out. For relief pitchers, who are far more likely to both enter and exit games partially through an inning, this system largely breaks down.
Conviently, RE24/REW does account for this, crediting pitchers with partial runs. If a pitcher pitches a full inning, RE24 will credit them functionally identically to RA. But in partial innings, RE24 will more accurately distribute the runs between the pitchers.
Pitchers by REW
Carl Hubbell - 36.50
Kevin Brown - 36.25
Gaylord Perry - 35.35
Mariano Rivera - 34.72
Don Sutton - 34.25
Red Ruffing - 32.91
Sandy Koufax - 32.85
All are HoMers, and aside from Kevin Brown, all are HoFers as well.
Now also note that REW does NOT take into account leverage based on score/inning state. Since Rivera's innings largely came in higher leverage game states, he'd move up if you included them (which you should). Those rankings also do not include postseason games, which again, should be considered and again would benefit Rivera.
Rivera would likely benefit quite a bit from his postseason play.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main