His '96 season is not really as flukey as it looks if you don't focus solely on his home run total. Not that it isn't flukey, mind you.

Yeah, he was nearly as good in '92.

No matter what the taboo topic was, you could be sure that Brady Anderson was the topic of rumors...

The girl I lost my virginity had a Brady Anderson poster on the wall.

That is all.

For her sake, I hope you had better than 4.2 speed.

He was clearly on steroids. For one year. Two years before he could become a free agent. Then he stopped.

Makes sense to me.

He was clearly on steroids. For one year.

His sideburns weren't really skinny... his head was enlarged!

He attributed 1996 to bacon.

I've heard him refer to that season as his opus, which always impressed the hell out of me.

He was, to the naked eye, a great defensive outfielder, especially when he played left. And he is, in my mind, a starter in the outfield for the all-time Oriole team.

And he is, in my mind, a starter in the outfield for the all-time Oriole team.

This sounds wrong to me, but, to be honest, thinking about it, I can't come up with an all-time Orioles outfield that's clearly better than him. I might go something like F-Robby, Blair, Singleton, but that's really two rightfielders and Singleton probably slots better as the all-time Orioles DH. And Blair v. Brady isn't really a slam-dunk either. Of course, if you let me go with a Lowenstein-Roenicke platoon in left field, then if you take Blair over Brady that might push Brady off the team.

No doubt. Ken Singleton in left, Anderson in center, Frank Robinson in right. The next-best are Blair and Bumbry, and they're a good ways behind.

Are we counting Ken Williams?

Are we counting Ken Williams?

I wasn't just because I don't feel qualified to talk about Browns' outfielders. But to be fair, he should be in the conversation.

I suspect that even if you include the Browns, Anderson makes an all-time franchise roster. Aside from Williams, the best Browns outfielders are probably Jack Tobin, Sammy West, and Baby Doll Jacobson ... all very good players, but no better than Anderson. Jacobson and West were mainly center fielders; Tobin played mostly right.

My all-time Orioles team would probably be:
C Dempsey
1b Murray
2b Grich
SS Ripken
3b Robinson
LF Anderson
CF Blair
RF Robinson
DH Singleton

I guess it depends if you're picking three OF, or LF/CF/RF (or at least, two corner OF and a CF.) If I were picking three OF, I'd pick F-Rob/Singleton/K. Williams. But doing it the other way probably does make more sense, really. Unless you think one of those guys could play CF, but they most likely couldn't very well (not that I know anything about K. Williams' defense -- I sure as hell know Singleton couldn't.)

Two comments on the team in #15.

1) As of tonight, that'll be an all-HOM infield. Does any other team have one of those (I was going to ask that in the thread announcing Ripken's election anyway)?

2) If Rick Dempsey is a candidate for your best catcher of all-time (and while I probably wouldn't pick him, I agree he's a candidate), that's an all-time weak position, isn't it?

Dempsey's the only guy I'd disagree with Yeaargghhh on - I'd probably go with Chris Hoiles. But if you insist on a single player at a position, I agree, Anderson's the starting LF.

The Cardinals have an all-HoM infield: Mize, Hornsby, Smith, Boyer. In fact, if you're willing to have Musial play CF, they have an all-HoM starting lineup.

1) As of tonight, that'll be an all-HOM infield. Does any other team have one of those (I was going to ask that in the thread announcing Ripken's election anyway)?

Minor nitpicks: Grich wears an Angels cap in the HOM and the O's "franchise" already has a SS (Bobby Wallace). Still thats an impressive group of infielders between 1957-1997.

The Cardinals have an all-HOM infield of 1B-Mize, 2B-Hornsby, SS-Frisch, 3B-Boyer

Thanks, OCF. I was having trouble thinking of HOM shorstops for some reason (I also don't really associate Hornsby with the Cardinals - although I do associate Frisch with the Cardinals which gets you the same result).

Oops... didn't see OCF's post. Ozzie at SS.

Grich wears an Angels cap in the HOM

Grich was actually already an Angel when I started following the Orioles closely, so I've always kind of thought of him as an Angel, too. I still thought it was impressive.

Dempsey was a good defender and an ok hitter, but you're probably right. Hoiles or Triandos would be better options. The Orioles don't have any HOFers at C, but they have a decent number of good players -- Triandos, Dempsey, Hoiles, Tettleton.

The Orioles also have a fair amount of depth around the IF -- Palmiero and Powell at 1b, Alomar and Roberts at 2b, Aparcio, Belanger, and Tejada at SS, Decinces at 3b. NOt much in the OF though.

Yankees, if you include active players who are presumptively going to make the HoM.

1B-Gehrig
2B-Randolph
SS-Jeter
3B-Nettles
LF-Keller
CF-Dimaggio
RF-Ruth
C-Berra

1B-Gehrig
2B-Randolph
SS-Jeter
3B-Nettles
LF-Keller
CF-Dimaggio
RF-Ruth
C-Berra

You know a team's good when Mickey Mantle and Bill Dickey can't crack the starting lineup.

FOrgot to add Mora and Ripken at 3b (Mora had a couple of allstar worthy years there) and D. Johnson at 2b.

Yankees, if you include active players who are presumptively going to make the HoM.

1B-Gehrig
2B-Randolph
SS-Jeter
3B-Nettles
LF-Keller
CF-Dimaggio
RF-Ruth
C-Berra

I'd put Mantle in CF.

Mantle in CF, Gordon at 2B.

Probably have to wait until 2020 to see this lineup though. Jeter will be around for a while.

For now, that Cardinal outfield is Medwick, Musial, Slaughter. When Jim Edmonds becomes eligible, we'll consider moving Musial to left.

Unless Rizzuto gets in first!

I also don't really associate Hornsby with the Cardinals

Another minor nitpick. Hornsby's Cardinal cap choice was a slam dunk. Two thirds of his PA, including all of his six-year lead-the-league-in-everything reign over the NL (1920-25) was in St Louis -- including one of his two triple crowns. Also, although he had an off year at the plate in 1926, he was the manager of their first World Championship. They sure were quick to unload him after that though. :-)

DavidFoss,

Well, now you see why I don't vote in HOM elections. :-)

... trying to get back on topic...

The O's are a bit light in OF-ers. Baylor & Singleton are thought of as DH's (or at least DH-like). Even going back to the Browns days, its really just Ken Williams and a few lesser years of Goslin, Manush & Burkett.

New York Giants:

1B - Bill Terry
2B - George Kelly
3B - Frankie Frisch
SS - Travis Jackson
LF - Freddy Lindstrom
CF - Hack Wilson
RF - Ross Youngs

And C Hank Gowdy almost made it!

Oh, wait, you said HOM. Never mind.

including one of his two triple crowns

Nitpicking myself now. :-) One of his two MVP's (1925, other in 1929). *Both* of his triple crowns (1922, 1925) were in St Louis.

Chicago Cubs:

C - Gabby Hartnett
1B - Cap Anson
2B - Ryne Sandberg
SS - Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Billy Williams
CF - George Gore
Future RF - Sammy Sosa

King Kelly could be in there somewhere.

Can I replace Sammy Sosa with King Kelly. I know he played almost half is career at catcher but...he played the most in RF and belonged in RF!!!

"For her sake, I hope you had better than 4.2 speed."

Um, for her sake, I hope he DIDN'T.

:)

Nice catch Dan, didn't refresh in time.

he was the manager of their first World Championship

Minor nitpick- that was Charlie Comiskey.

Don Buford was the Orioles leftfielder for only five years, but for four of those years, he was better than Brady Anderson.

I'd put Mantle in CF.

In a neutral park, I'd rather have Dimaggio; better glove, and the bat is pretty much just as good. And he won't show up drunk.

For now, that Cardinal outfield is Medwick, Musial, Slaughter. When Jim Edmonds becomes eligible, we'll consider moving Musial to left.

Only to move back to center when Pujols becomes eligible?

I was thinking of an All-Time Cards team a while ago, and my outfield was Musial, Albert and one of Slaughter and Medwick (can't remember who). The team as a whole wasn't all that good on defense, but look at all those bats!

two quick comments:

Brady Anderson was one of my favorite players at the time (I'm an O's fan) but unlike with Cal, that's not going to be good enough to get him in.

Could Charles Johnson displace Dempsey as the O's all-time best catcher? Or was he not with the franchise long enough?

The team as a whole wasn't all that good on defense, but look at all those bats!

Well, there is that Boyer/Smith left side of the infield. Play in a DH league, and you can make Mize the DH so you can use Hernandez at 1B. Either that, or Horsnby at DH and Frisch at 2B.

Only to move back to center when Pujols becomes eligible?

I guess we can make up our own rules, but I'd move a player only to fill a hole in the lineup, rather than collect the best nine guys. Pujols would eventually displace Mize at 1B. Mize only played six years in STL and Pujols has already logged seven. As a credit to both players, those two were pretty darn close through six years.

As a credit to both players, those two were pretty darn close through six years.

Extremely close, in fact. Pujols OPS+: 167 (169 through his first six years). Mize through his six seasons: 171. And both have reputations as good fielders at first.

Make it HoM and HoF

Senators/Twins

C-Rick Ferrell
1B-Harmon Killebrew
2B-Rod Carew
SS-Joe Cronin
3B-
OF-Goose Goslin
Kirby Puckett
Sam Rice
P-Walter Johnson

Just one position short but a pretty good SP.

Also HoM and HoF

Reds

C-Bench
1B-Perez
2B-Morgan
SS-Larkin
3B-Groh
LF-Rose
CF-Roush
RF-F. Robinson

Tigers

C-Cochrane
1B-Greenberg
2B-Gehringer
SS-Trammell
3B-Da. Evans, though not a true "Tiger;" Whitaker, though not a true 3B
OF-Kaline
Cobb
Crawford

Red Sox

C-Fisk
1B-Yaz
2B-Doerr
SS-Cronin
3B-Boggs
LF-Ted Williams
CF-Speaker
RF-D.Evans

That was easy.

Here's a strange/fun question.

What's the fewest number of HOM infielders any team has fielded. No matter how few games the guy played at a position he normally played?
Arizona (0) and Tampa (1, Boggs) don't really count.
Florida (0) and Colorado (0) shouldn't either.

But going back to the 1977 expansion...
-Seattle has fielded none. They will when A-Rod is inducted, and they may if Edgar goes in. But right now, they're at zero.
-Toronto has fielded Molitor at 1B for its lone HOM infielder. Robbie Alomar could one day give them a second.

1969 Expansion....
-San Diego has 3: McCovey, Ozzie, Nettles. If Alomar goes in, they'll have the full complement.
-KC Royals 2: Brett 3B, and Killebrew with 6 games at 1B in 1975.
-Seattle/Milwauke has 3: Randolph, Yount, Molitor (3B).
-Montreal has 1 or 2: Pete Rose. We could count Raines' brief time there (53 games over several years). I guess I wouldn't since it wasn't his regular position, but I can see the argument for it.

1962 Expansion....
-Mets, 3: Hernandez, Randolph, Boyer. No SS.
-Houston (2): Morgan, Mathews. Soon Bagwell.

1961 Expansion....
-LA/Cal/ANA (2): Carew, Grich.
-Was/Tex (1): W. Clark. Someday, A-Rod.

Original AL Teams:
-NYY (3): Gehrig, Gordon, Nettles. Someday Jeter.
-A's (3): Foxx, Collins, Baker. Maybe Tejada some day?
-Detroit (4): Greenberg, Gehringer, Trammell, Evans/Mathews each played 30+ games for them at 3B.
-Cleveland (4): Murray or Hernandez, Lajoie, Boudreau, Sewell.
-Chisox (4): Allen, Fox, Appling, Santo or Boyer.
-STL/Balto (4): Sisler Grich, Ripken, Brooks
-BoSox (4): Foxx, Doerr, Cronin, Boggs.
-Minn/Was: (4): Molitor, Carew, Cronin, Killebrew.

c. 1901 NL Teams:
-Reds (3): Rose, Morgan, Groh. Larkin will fill this one out.
-Pirates (4): Stargell, Herman, Cronin, Wagner
-Phils (4): Allen, Morgan, Jennings (played a handful of games at SS for them),Schmidt.
-Braves (4): Brouthers, Hornsby, Dahlen, Evans
-Giants (4): Connor, Frisch, Davis, Evans
-Dodgers (4): Brouthers, Robinson, Reese, Boyer
-Cards (4): Mize, Hornsby, Smith, Boyer.
-Cubs (4): Anson, Hornsby, Banks, Santo.

Defunct teams of about ten years:
-old Senators (1): Glasscock
-Baltimore Orioles (2): Brouthers, Jennings
-Buffalo NL (3): Brouthers, Richardson, White
-Spiders (3): Childs, Glasscock, Wallace.
-Wolverines (3): Brouthers, Richardson, White.
-Providence (3): Start, Wright, Ward.
-Louisville (4): Brouthers, Browning, Jennings, Wagner.

This is off the top of my head, so errors are mine alone, feel free to correct me.

I'd have to say that the WAS/TEX franchise appears to be least impressive. Followed by Montreal, then Seattle. I guess A's are in the mix too, since they couldn't find a single HOM SS in 110 years.

'Roids.

Could Charles Johnson displace Dempsey as the O's all-time best catcher? Or was he not with the franchise long enough?

I didn't even remember him being with Baltimore. A season and a half? For a 50 (or 100) year old franchise? He woulda had to hit 100 HRs a year to be considered, I think.

Cards (4): Mize, Hornsby, Smith, Boyer.

And Pujols to knock Mize off in 2026 or so, at this rate. :)

-Seattle has fielded none. They will when A-Rod is inducted, and they may if Edgar goes in. But right now, they're at zero.

Well, unless A-Rod's forced to pull a Amos Rusie, The Kid should be elected before him and will definitely go in as a Mariner.

However, Gaylord Perry did win his 300th game with the M's! And I believe he received his only ejection, too! (I can't recall--was that related to the spitball or not?) He also once played for the Tacoma Giants, along with Willie McCovey, Juan Marichal, and some other famous Giants that I can't recall at the moment. . . .

Well, unless A-Rod's forced to pull a Amos Rusie, The Kid should be elected before him and will definitely go in as a Mariner.

Infiedlers only.

-STL/Balto (4): Sisler Grich, Ripken, Brooks

Murray, Palmeiro, Clark, Alomar (I assume)...

You know a team's good when Mickey Mantle and Bill Dickey can't crack the starting lineup.

I'd put Mantle in CF.

so would I

In a neutral park, I'd rather have Dimaggio; better glove, and the bat is pretty much just as good. And he won't show up drunk.

I'm not going to argue the glove part, although it's been noted before that Joe's fielding stats (which admittedly lack PBP dtata) simply don't match his fielding rep. but WRT to offense:

DiMaggio had an OPS+ of 155, three best seasons of 184, 184 and 173
League average for his era, adjusted for Yankee Stadium, was .276/.354/.405

Mantle had an OPS+ of 172, three year peak of 223, 210, 206. (League average was .256/.329/.386). Mantle played in a league where many fewer runs were scored than in DiMaggio's time, largely because batting averages were so much lower.

Let's say DiMaggio lost 65 homers due to Yankee Stadium, (213 road, 148 home), give him those 65 (along with 65 extra hits- assume all those "lost" homers were flyouts instead- I'm being deliberately generous) then DiMaggio's .325/.398/.579 line becomes .334/.406/.617 and his OPS+ becomes 167

Close but, but another problem is that in a Neutral Park, he'd play 1/7 of his road games in Yankee Stadium. Adjusting for that you need to subtract 9 from his recalculated HR totals and you get: .333/.405/.612 and an OPS+ of 166. That's assuming that DiMaggio's lost" homers wee outs and not doubles and triples.

Mantle stole 153 bases and was caught 38 times. DiMaggio stole 30 bases and was caught 9 times. Mantle grounded into 113 DPs in 9909 PAs. DiMaggio grounded into 130 DPs in 5651 PAs (no data for 1st three years) - DiMaggio's GDP rate was literally twice Mantle's- some of that is obviously due to context- DiMaggio had many more teammates on in front of him than Mantle, but obviously not twice as many.

Last note, putting DiMaggio into a "neutral" context also requires changing the denominators in the OPS+ formula from the Yankee Stadium adjusted .276/.354/.405 numbers- Yankee Stadium played as a pitcher's park most years, DiMaggio's "neutral" OPS+ was closer to 162 rather than 166.

Just for the record, I'm with JP. Mantle was better. So he came to the park drunk now and again, it's already in the numbers which are clearly better than DiMag's. As for the negatory affect that might have had on his teammates, well, from what I understand, half of them were in no condition to notice anyway.

But back to the key point. I think both of them were better than Brady Anderson.

If Anderson was juicing in '96 and it worked so well for him, why did his HR crash in '97?

Sunnyday2,

Your examples in 48 should read HOF or HOM. Are there any teams that feature someone at each position who is both HOF and HOM?

If Anderson was juicing in '96 and it worked so well for him, why did his HR crash in '97?

Just playing along because I like looking stuff up...

Anderson DH-ed the first three weeks of 1997. Hammonds played CF. Was Brady injured? Brady had a sensational April at the plate (.380/.515/.557) but only two HR's.

>Your examples in 48 should read HOF or HOM. Are there any teams that feature someone at each position who is both HOF and HOM?

Just scanning this thread, I'd have to say no. Anybody?

And do you mean with the same 8-10 players, or could we mix 'n match?

And do you mean with the same 8-10 players, or could we mix 'n match?

Same 8-10.

Eric Chalek:
-Spiders (3): Childs, Glasscock, Wallace

ok, i'll correct you Eric.
That is two Cleveland clubs, 1879-84 for Glasscock and 1887-99 for Childs & Wallace.

-old Senators (1): Glasscock

The number of old Senators or old Nationals is finite but uncountable.

--
I like Don Buford in left for the modern Orioles, not considering any Browns.
George Stone, I suppose, for the Browns/Orioles.