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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Monday, November 12, 2007
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 12, 2007 at 03:32 AM (#2611892)That is all.
Makes sense to me.
His sideburns weren't really skinny... his head was enlarged!
He was, to the naked eye, a great defensive outfielder, especially when he played left. And he is, in my mind, a starter in the outfield for the all-time Oriole team.
This sounds wrong to me, but, to be honest, thinking about it, I can't come up with an all-time Orioles outfield that's clearly better than him. I might go something like F-Robby, Blair, Singleton, but that's really two rightfielders and Singleton probably slots better as the all-time Orioles DH. And Blair v. Brady isn't really a slam-dunk either. Of course, if you let me go with a Lowenstein-Roenicke platoon in left field, then if you take Blair over Brady that might push Brady off the team.
I wasn't just because I don't feel qualified to talk about Browns' outfielders. But to be fair, he should be in the conversation.
C Dempsey
1b Murray
2b Grich
SS Ripken
3b Robinson
LF Anderson
CF Blair
RF Robinson
DH Singleton
1) As of tonight, that'll be an all-HOM infield. Does any other team have one of those (I was going to ask that in the thread announcing Ripken's election anyway)?
2) If Rick Dempsey is a candidate for your best catcher of all-time (and while I probably wouldn't pick him, I agree he's a candidate), that's an all-time weak position, isn't it?
Dempsey's the only guy I'd disagree with Yeaargghhh on - I'd probably go with Chris Hoiles. But if you insist on a single player at a position, I agree, Anderson's the starting LF.
Minor nitpicks: Grich wears an Angels cap in the HOM and the O's "franchise" already has a SS (Bobby Wallace). Still thats an impressive group of infielders between 1957-1997.
The Cardinals have an all-HOM infield of 1B-Mize, 2B-Hornsby, SS-Frisch, 3B-Boyer
Grich was actually already an Angel when I started following the Orioles closely, so I've always kind of thought of him as an Angel, too. I still thought it was impressive.
The Orioles also have a fair amount of depth around the IF -- Palmiero and Powell at 1b, Alomar and Roberts at 2b, Aparcio, Belanger, and Tejada at SS, Decinces at 3b. NOt much in the OF though.
1B-Gehrig
2B-Randolph
SS-Jeter
3B-Nettles
LF-Keller
CF-Dimaggio
RF-Ruth
C-Berra
You know a team's good when Mickey Mantle and Bill Dickey can't crack the starting lineup.
Yankees, if you include active players who are presumptively going to make the HoM.
1B-Gehrig
2B-Randolph
SS-Jeter
3B-Nettles
LF-Keller
CF-Dimaggio
RF-Ruth
C-Berra
I'd put Mantle in CF.
Probably have to wait until 2020 to see this lineup though. Jeter will be around for a while.
Another minor nitpick. Hornsby's Cardinal cap choice was a slam dunk. Two thirds of his PA, including all of his six-year lead-the-league-in-everything reign over the NL (1920-25) was in St Louis -- including one of his two triple crowns. Also, although he had an off year at the plate in 1926, he was the manager of their first World Championship. They sure were quick to unload him after that though. :-)
Well, now you see why I don't vote in HOM elections. :-)
The O's are a bit light in OF-ers. Baylor & Singleton are thought of as DH's (or at least DH-like). Even going back to the Browns days, its really just Ken Williams and a few lesser years of Goslin, Manush & Burkett.
1B - Bill Terry
2B - George Kelly
3B - Frankie Frisch
SS - Travis Jackson
LF - Freddy Lindstrom
CF - Hack Wilson
RF - Ross Youngs
And C Hank Gowdy almost made it!
Oh, wait, you said HOM. Never mind.
Nitpicking myself now. :-) One of his two MVP's (1925, other in 1929). *Both* of his triple crowns (1922, 1925) were in St Louis.
C - Gabby Hartnett
1B - Cap Anson
2B - Ryne Sandberg
SS - Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Billy Williams
CF - George Gore
Future RF - Sammy Sosa
Um, for her sake, I hope he DIDN'T.
:)
Minor nitpick- that was Charlie Comiskey.
I'd put Mantle in CF.
In a neutral park, I'd rather have Dimaggio; better glove, and the bat is pretty much just as good. And he won't show up drunk.
Only to move back to center when Pujols becomes eligible?
I was thinking of an All-Time Cards team a while ago, and my outfield was Musial, Albert and one of Slaughter and Medwick (can't remember who). The team as a whole wasn't all that good on defense, but look at all those bats!
Brady Anderson was one of my favorite players at the time (I'm an O's fan) but unlike with Cal, that's not going to be good enough to get him in.
Could Charles Johnson displace Dempsey as the O's all-time best catcher? Or was he not with the franchise long enough?
Well, there is that Boyer/Smith left side of the infield. Play in a DH league, and you can make Mize the DH so you can use Hernandez at 1B. Either that, or Horsnby at DH and Frisch at 2B.
I guess we can make up our own rules, but I'd move a player only to fill a hole in the lineup, rather than collect the best nine guys. Pujols would eventually displace Mize at 1B. Mize only played six years in STL and Pujols has already logged seven. As a credit to both players, those two were pretty darn close through six years.
Extremely close, in fact. Pujols OPS+: 167 (169 through his first six years). Mize through his six seasons: 171. And both have reputations as good fielders at first.
Senators/Twins
C-Rick Ferrell
1B-Harmon Killebrew
2B-Rod Carew
SS-Joe Cronin
3B-
OF-Goose Goslin
Kirby Puckett
Sam Rice
P-Walter Johnson
Just one position short but a pretty good SP.
Also HoM and HoF
Reds
C-Bench
1B-Perez
2B-Morgan
SS-Larkin
3B-Groh
LF-Rose
CF-Roush
RF-F. Robinson
Tigers
C-Cochrane
1B-Greenberg
2B-Gehringer
SS-Trammell
3B-Da. Evans, though not a true "Tiger;" Whitaker, though not a true 3B
OF-Kaline
Cobb
Crawford
Red Sox
C-Fisk
1B-Yaz
2B-Doerr
SS-Cronin
3B-Boggs
LF-Ted Williams
CF-Speaker
RF-D.Evans
That was easy.
What's the fewest number of HOM infielders any team has fielded. No matter how few games the guy played at a position he normally played?
Arizona (0) and Tampa (1, Boggs) don't really count.
Florida (0) and Colorado (0) shouldn't either.
But going back to the 1977 expansion...
-Seattle has fielded none. They will when A-Rod is inducted, and they may if Edgar goes in. But right now, they're at zero.
-Toronto has fielded Molitor at 1B for its lone HOM infielder. Robbie Alomar could one day give them a second.
1969 Expansion....
-San Diego has 3: McCovey, Ozzie, Nettles. If Alomar goes in, they'll have the full complement.
-KC Royals 2: Brett 3B, and Killebrew with 6 games at 1B in 1975.
-Seattle/Milwauke has 3: Randolph, Yount, Molitor (3B).
-Montreal has 1 or 2: Pete Rose. We could count Raines' brief time there (53 games over several years). I guess I wouldn't since it wasn't his regular position, but I can see the argument for it.
1962 Expansion....
-Mets, 3: Hernandez, Randolph, Boyer. No SS.
-Houston (2): Morgan, Mathews. Soon Bagwell.
1961 Expansion....
-LA/Cal/ANA (2): Carew, Grich.
-Was/Tex (1): W. Clark. Someday, A-Rod.
Original AL Teams:
-NYY (3): Gehrig, Gordon, Nettles. Someday Jeter.
-A's (3): Foxx, Collins, Baker. Maybe Tejada some day?
-Detroit (4): Greenberg, Gehringer, Trammell, Evans/Mathews each played 30+ games for them at 3B.
-Cleveland (4): Murray or Hernandez, Lajoie, Boudreau, Sewell.
-Chisox (4): Allen, Fox, Appling, Santo or Boyer.
-STL/Balto (4): Sisler Grich, Ripken, Brooks
-BoSox (4): Foxx, Doerr, Cronin, Boggs.
-Minn/Was: (4): Molitor, Carew, Cronin, Killebrew.
c. 1901 NL Teams:
-Reds (3): Rose, Morgan, Groh. Larkin will fill this one out.
-Pirates (4): Stargell, Herman, Cronin, Wagner
-Phils (4): Allen, Morgan, Jennings (played a handful of games at SS for them),Schmidt.
-Braves (4): Brouthers, Hornsby, Dahlen, Evans
-Giants (4): Connor, Frisch, Davis, Evans
-Dodgers (4): Brouthers, Robinson, Reese, Boyer
-Cards (4): Mize, Hornsby, Smith, Boyer.
-Cubs (4): Anson, Hornsby, Banks, Santo.
Defunct teams of about ten years:
-old Senators (1): Glasscock
-Baltimore Orioles (2): Brouthers, Jennings
-Buffalo NL (3): Brouthers, Richardson, White
-Spiders (3): Childs, Glasscock, Wallace.
-Wolverines (3): Brouthers, Richardson, White.
-Providence (3): Start, Wright, Ward.
-Louisville (4): Brouthers, Browning, Jennings, Wagner.
This is off the top of my head, so errors are mine alone, feel free to correct me.
I'd have to say that the WAS/TEX franchise appears to be least impressive. Followed by Montreal, then Seattle. I guess A's are in the mix too, since they couldn't find a single HOM SS in 110 years.
I didn't even remember him being with Baltimore. A season and a half? For a 50 (or 100) year old franchise? He woulda had to hit 100 HRs a year to be considered, I think.
And Pujols to knock Mize off in 2026 or so, at this rate. :)
Well, unless A-Rod's forced to pull a Amos Rusie, The Kid should be elected before him and will definitely go in as a Mariner.
However, Gaylord Perry did win his 300th game with the M's! And I believe he received his only ejection, too! (I can't recall--was that related to the spitball or not?) He also once played for the Tacoma Giants, along with Willie McCovey, Juan Marichal, and some other famous Giants that I can't recall at the moment. . . .
Infiedlers only.
Murray, Palmeiro, Clark, Alomar (I assume)...
so would I
I'm not going to argue the glove part, although it's been noted before that Joe's fielding stats (which admittedly lack PBP dtata) simply don't match his fielding rep. but WRT to offense:
DiMaggio had an OPS+ of 155, three best seasons of 184, 184 and 173
League average for his era, adjusted for Yankee Stadium, was .276/.354/.405
Mantle had an OPS+ of 172, three year peak of 223, 210, 206. (League average was .256/.329/.386). Mantle played in a league where many fewer runs were scored than in DiMaggio's time, largely because batting averages were so much lower.
Let's say DiMaggio lost 65 homers due to Yankee Stadium, (213 road, 148 home), give him those 65 (along with 65 extra hits- assume all those "lost" homers were flyouts instead- I'm being deliberately generous) then DiMaggio's .325/.398/.579 line becomes .334/.406/.617 and his OPS+ becomes 167
Close but, but another problem is that in a Neutral Park, he'd play 1/7 of his road games in Yankee Stadium. Adjusting for that you need to subtract 9 from his recalculated HR totals and you get: .333/.405/.612 and an OPS+ of 166. That's assuming that DiMaggio's lost" homers wee outs and not doubles and triples.
Mantle stole 153 bases and was caught 38 times. DiMaggio stole 30 bases and was caught 9 times. Mantle grounded into 113 DPs in 9909 PAs. DiMaggio grounded into 130 DPs in 5651 PAs (no data for 1st three years) - DiMaggio's GDP rate was literally twice Mantle's- some of that is obviously due to context- DiMaggio had many more teammates on in front of him than Mantle, but obviously not twice as many.
But back to the key point. I think both of them were better than Brady Anderson.
Your examples in 48 should read HOF or HOM. Are there any teams that feature someone at each position who is both HOF and HOM?
Just playing along because I like looking stuff up...
Anderson DH-ed the first three weeks of 1997. Hammonds played CF. Was Brady injured? Brady had a sensational April at the plate (.380/.515/.557) but only two HR's.
Just scanning this thread, I'd have to say no. Anybody?
And do you mean with the same 8-10 players, or could we mix 'n match?
Same 8-10.
-Spiders (3): Childs, Glasscock, Wallace
ok, i'll correct you Eric.
That is two Cleveland clubs, 1879-84 for Glasscock and 1887-99 for Childs & Wallace.
-old Senators (1): Glasscock
The number of old Senators or old Nationals is finite but uncountable.
--
I like Don Buford in left for the modern Orioles, not considering any Browns.
George Stone, I suppose, for the Browns/Orioles.
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